Page 2 of 3 FirstFirst 123 LastLast
Results 16 to 30 of 42

Thread: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

  1. #16
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Milky Way
    Posts
    7,698

    Default Re: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

    So you are claiming that Mohammed is the messiah, and the dome of the rock is the final Temple? All I can do is shake my head incredulously.
    Actually, I'm saying the Last prophet the Israelites waiting for, which the Israelites conflated into the concept of Messiah of Israel is Muhammad (S). Anybdoy familiar with the Old Testament understands the concept of 'Messiah' and how it was used for many different personalities as well as objects. The Messiah is not even mentioned in the first five books of the OT, meaning the Pentaceuch, meaning the Torah, but the Last Prophet, whom the Israelites were surely waiting for, even during the time of Jesus, is. It is simply conflation, and such things happen when people commit 'tahreef' with the Book of God. Not only does it earn a person hell, it causes a whole lot of confusion and mis-understandings. This is precisely the reason why the Israelites were rendered into confusion regarding the matter. It is the same Son of Man, as well as Paraclete, that the Christians conflated with Jesus. They rendered themselves into confusion with the concept of the 'return' of Jesus.

    Nor is the Dome of the Rock or the Temple the 'final' Temple. The 'final' Temple was and is the 'first' Temple, meaning the original House built by Abraham (AS), meaning the Ka'aba. There is a reason that one of the directives of the Torah regarding the altar is that it faced southward. The Temple of the Israel was built by Solomon and it served as a place of worship for Israel, but when the Israelites performed their obligations at the Holy of Holies, they were facing south, whether wandering in Canaan or settled in Jerusalem. The Temple was a masjid, like the masjid established in Medina, which faced southward as well, towards the Ka'aba and it was the central point of the movement of the Israelites, just as Masjid An Nabawi was for the Prophet (S) and His Companions (R). All this means that it never was the Dome of the Rock or Temple and never will be.

    In our mind Mohammed is a fake prophet because he did not fulfill any of the conditions necessary to be a prophet, and a great many men just like mohammed claimed prophethood to the jews.

    We have to sift the fake from the true, many jews until the 19th century made many of the same claims as Mohammed, all fake, Mohammed is nothing new.
    If a 19th century Jew, or any human being for that matter, accomplishes or accomplished what our Prophet (S) accomplished, then maybe his claims to being that prophet of Israel can be taken seriously, but until then... People have many reasons to not believe in Muhammad (S), but not fulfilling any of the conditions necessary of being a Prophet (S) is definitely not one of them. Of course, the Israelites that lived around the Hijaz made many such 'false' and 'spurious' conditions of what qualifies as being a Prophet, such as the demand that the sacrifice be swallowed by a fire from heaven, so there is nothing surprising in the claims today that Muhammad (S) does not fulfill these imaginary conditions...

    Once again:

    But this is all bedsides the point. The point of the last post was to show you in the Quran, the actual significance of the Temple of Jerusalem and the surrounding areas. The Muslims consider it blessed, just as the Jews and their Prophets are our Prophets. It was in this land that miracles were performed and many Saints lived and died for the sake of God, and many probably still alive today. Only God knows...
    As an aside, you seem to be suffering from a multi-personality disorder. How do you speak of 'we', when you don't believe in God, per your own words, and these conditions of prophethood which you claim he must fulfill, are 'divine' conditions?
    Last edited by ihsan; 17th March 2010 at 14:24.
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
    God does not give them courage." - Bulleh Shah

  2. #17
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,903

    Default Re: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

    I will respond in detail to all your assertions.

    But for the record, I think pretty much every one of those so called "mouth pieces" of God were simply hallucinating.

    Now before some muslim screams "insulting the prophet - violating CoC." let me clarify.

    We are aware that these people were starving themselves and we are also aware that they would seclude themselves in caves or wander around by themselves in the desert.

    We know that it was quite common for seers and oracles to consume copious quanitities of hallucinogens to bring on these "revelations" and prophecies.

    In fact the cocaine mummies of egypt show that these people were using extremely powerful drugs quite liberally over extended periods of time.

    Moses was allegedly in egypt, i believe he probably began consuming these hallucinogens in egypt and no doubt the heat of the desert only added to his hallucinations.

    Some of what he taught was needed for social order , so i believe he was well intentioned.

    But the bit about God told me to do this or that was either hallucinations or blatant lies, take your pick...

  3. #18
    Veteran Member faithful's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Paris_France
    Posts
    1,124

    Default Re: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

    Salam Ihsan;

    ...From the inidividual perspective, the Hour begins when one returns to the dust...
    Well said brother! And mashaALLAH I liked ALL your answers here.. also subhanALLAH you are so patient because for me this conversation is pushing one my nerves! I don't know what query Algebra wants to raise here.

    He strarted by defending the right of Jews for the holy land.. he said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Algebra View Post
    The argument is not about the right to the land, but the right to control the Holy sites.
    and then he said:
    Quote Originally Posted by Algebra View Post
    However the Temple is jewish, there is no debate there, and it is that land that we are talking about.
    This is so confusing for me, he isn't even religious.
    Then he started defending his idea that Muhammad (pbuh) wasn't a prophet!!!

    He wanted a proove from Quran about how Muslims consider the al-Masjid alAqsa as a holy site when it's clear in Quran in the first verse of chapter 17-AlIsraa and you already explained that very well:

    [17.1] Exalted is He who carried His worshiper (Prophet Muhammad) to travel in the night from the Sacred Mosque to the Furthest Mosque which We have blessed around it so that We might show him some of Our signs. He is the Hearer, the Seer.

    Furthest Mosque it's clearly written alMasjid alAqsa.. and by the meaning of Masjid alAqsa it doesn't mean the Mosque but the whole area because alMasjid alAqsa wasn't built yet by the time of the prophet. This is one of the reasons why Muslims consider the area is sacred.

    Also, he is giving Israel the right to blow up the Masjid and kill alot of innocent people (who are defending their country btw) or whatever he is saying... I just can't understand how can anyone reclaim that this fact is justifiable... yeah Israel is doing it but is it right?! No, the whole world is saying no but Algebra finds it so just based on religion concerns when he is not even believer.

    In my opinion, if controlling the holy sites is the reason behind the demolition of the Masjid and "take back the right for the holy land" and if this reason is considered alowable, then based on that reason Israel can have any land.. maybe in the future we will hear about Israel invading Egypt because it's the hometown of Moses (pbuh).
    It just doesn't make sense!
    Last edited by faithful; 18th March 2010 at 13:09.

  4. #19
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Milky Way
    Posts
    7,698

    Default Re: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by Algebra View Post
    I will respond in detail to all your assertions.

    But for the record, I think pretty much every one of those so called "mouth pieces" of God were simply hallucinating.

    Now before some muslim screams "insulting the prophet - violating CoC." let me clarify.

    We are aware that these people were starving themselves and we are also aware that they would seclude themselves in caves or wander around by themselves in the desert.

    We know that it was quite common for seers and oracles to consume copious quanitities of hallucinogens to bring on these "revelations" and prophecies.

    In fact the cocaine mummies of egypt show that these people were using extremely powerful drugs quite liberally over extended periods of time.

    Moses was allegedly in egypt, i believe he probably began consuming these hallucinogens in egypt and no doubt the heat of the desert only added to his hallucinations.

    Some of what he taught was needed for social order , so i believe he was well intentioned.

    But the bit about God told me to do this or that was either hallucinations or blatant lies, take your pick...
    Ah, get stoned and give birth to an amazing social order. With Woodstock, there should have been multiple revolutions. So then, there is your solution for belief in God, which you so desparately want. Why don't you just get high?
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
    God does not give them courage." - Bulleh Shah

  5. #20
    Veteran Member sumuque's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    26° 18' 44.56 / -70° 23' 49.68'
    Posts
    1,097

    Default Re: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful View Post
    He wanted a proove from Quran about how Muslims consider the al-Masjid alAqsa as a holy site when it's clear in Quran in the first verse of chapter 17-AlIsraa and you already explained that very well:

    [17.1] Exalted is He who carried His worshiper (Prophet Muhammad) to travel in the night from the Sacred Mosque to the Furthest Mosque which We have blessed around it so that We might show him some of Our signs. He is the Hearer, the Seer.

    Furthest Mosque it's clearly written alMasjid alAqsa.. and by the meaning of Masjid alAqsa it doesn't mean the Mosque but the whole area because alMasjid alAqsa wasn't built yet by the time of the prophet. This is one of the reasons why Muslims consider the area is sacred.
    Interesting, I am confused what you actually meant here ? If its clearly written as alMasjid alAqsa then why it does not mean a Mosque, rather the whole area ? You are right, the Mosque was not there it was build later ! Have you thought may be this verses was included later in Quran by some one ?
    So, too, the creeds of man: the one prevails
    Until the other comes; and this one fails
    When that one triumphs; ay, the lonesome world
    Will always want the latest fairy tales.
    Al-Ma'arri

  6. #21
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Milky Way
    Posts
    7,698

    Default Re: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

    Actually, the phrase of the Quran includes two things:

    1. Masjid
    2. The area around it

    The Quran says about that same masjid, just a few verses later, in verse 7:

    "They might enter the MASJID as they entered it the first time, and that they might destroy, whatever they conquered, with utter destruction."
    The Quran and the Prophet were quite aware that the masjid he (S) visited in his ascension, , known in Jewish history as the Temple, was utterly destroyed in this world and was most likely just rubble. The Quran states the function of this journey was so that "We might show him some of Our signs", meaning what the Prophet (S) was seeing was a prophetic vision, and his journey was not accessible to the normal human experience, let alone vision. Prophets see things, in their revelational moments, that normal human beings do not. While the Masjid did not exist in the temporal world, because of the utter destruction, manifestations of that blessed masjid and sacred area surely existed in the spiritual world. Thesigns manifested to the Prophet (S) during the miraaj included future events and most likely past events of the history of his brethren, from the Bani Israel.
    Last edited by ihsan; 18th March 2010 at 18:41.
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
    God does not give them courage." - Bulleh Shah

  7. #22
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,903

    Default Re: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by ihsan View Post
    Ah, get stoned and give birth to an amazing social order.
    If you consider Semitic thought "amazing", I certainly do not.

    In reality semitic thought is quite useless when not paired with logic and reason - just look at islam, that never benefited from logic.

    Why don't you just get high?
    Been there, done that, too smart to confuse a high with revelation.

  8. #23
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,903

    Default Re: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by ihsan View Post
    Prophets see things, in their revelational moments, that normal human beings do not. While the Masjid did not exist in the temporal world, most likely only remnants from the second destruction, manifestations of that blessed masjid and sacred area surely existed in the spiritual world.
    Sounds like you are familiar with these "trips" too.

  9. #24
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Milky Way
    Posts
    7,698

    Default Re: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

    Been there, done that, too smart to confuse a high with revelation.
    But your the one that said these experiences are caused by hallucinogens, and your the one saying that you wished that you could experience the certainty that people like these Prophets, whom you claim their experiences are a result of hallucinogens, have. How come you haven't experienced that certainty from those same hallucinogens and how come people that use hallucinogens end up destroying their own lives, losing themselves totally in a state of dependency and anti-social behavior, as opposed to creating social orders and leading nations?
    Last edited by ihsan; 18th March 2010 at 18:38.
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
    God does not give them courage." - Bulleh Shah

  10. #25
    Veteran Member faithful's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2009
    Location
    Paris_France
    Posts
    1,124

    Default Re: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by sumuque View Post
    Interesting, I am confused what you actually meant here ? If its clearly written as alMasjid alAqsa then why it does not mean a Mosque, rather the whole area ? You are right, the Mosque was not there it was build later !
    To add to what Ihsan have said, and to understand what I meant by alMasjid alAqsa, it requires to explain to you the meaning of the word masjid, it's the place where you make sujud (prostration).
    So other than what Ihsan explained, I think the use of the word "alMasjid alAqsa" refers to the fact that the whole area arround the actual Masjid alAqsa is considered by Muslims as the first place where the first human being Adam prostrated...

    Quote Originally Posted by sumuque View Post
    Have you thought may be this verses was included later in Quran by some one ?
    NO!!
    Laaa!
    Non!
    Nahi!
    Nein!

    Certainly I don't think that and there; I told you that with the different languages that i'm familiar with!
    Nice try Sumuque.

  11. #26

    Default Re: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful View Post
    the word "alMasjid alAqsa" refers to the fact that the whole area arround the actual Masjid alAqsa is considered by Muslims as the first place where the first human being Adam prostrated...
    First place was kaba according to the traditions. But mount temple is a masjid too. As you said it is a place of sujud/worship.



  12. #27
    Veteran Member sumuque's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2009
    Location
    26° 18' 44.56 / -70° 23' 49.68'
    Posts
    1,097

    Default Re: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by faithful View Post
    To add to what Ihsan have said, and to understand what I meant by alMasjid alAqsa, it requires to explain to you the meaning of the word masjid, it's the place where you make sujud (prostration).
    So other than what Ihsan explained, I think the use of the word "alMasjid alAqsa" refers to the fact that the whole area arround the actual Masjid alAqsa is considered by Muslims as the first place where the first human being Adam prostrated...



    NO!!
    Laaa!
    Non!
    Nahi!
    Nein!

    Certainly I don't think that and there; I told you that with the different languages that i'm familiar with!
    Nice try Sumuque.
    As chuck mentioned, first place of worship is at the place of Bakkah or as some considered it as Mecca and not in Masjid al Aqsa

    "3:96 The first House (of worship) appointed for men was that at Bakka: Full of blessing and of guidance for all kinds of beings"

    By the way there is no evidence that Muhammad referred just to a "Place of worship" there and not an actual structured Mosque. If you think Mosque mean a place of worship then the whole world is place of worship ! Which "farthest Mosque" was He referring to ? And on which basis you came up with this Idea ?

    Another evidence that Muhammad did not meant a Place of worship is found in Sahi Bukhari

    "Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 60 :: Hadith 233

    Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah:

    The Prophet said, "When the Quraish disbelieved me (concerning my night journey), I stood up in Al-Hijr (the unroofed portion of the Ka'ba) and Allah displayed Bait-ul-Maqdis before me, and I started to inform them (Quraish) about its signs while looking at it
    ."

    Here He is revealing the things he saw there to Quraish, now if this Mosque or temple was not there and if Quraish did not know about it, then this practice was pretty useless !

    And also not to forget this famous Hadith

    "Bukhari :: Book 4 :: Volume 55 :: Hadith 636

    Narrated Abu Dhaar:

    I said, "O Allah's Apostle! Which mosque was built first?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Haram." I asked, "Which (was built) next?" He replied, "Al-Masjid-ul-Aqs-a (i.e. Jerusalem)." I asked, "What was the period in between them?" He replied, "Forty (years)." He then added, "Wherever the time for the prayer comes upon you, perform the prayer, for all the earth is a place of worshipping for you."
    "
    Last edited by sumuque; 18th March 2010 at 21:17.
    So, too, the creeds of man: the one prevails
    Until the other comes; and this one fails
    When that one triumphs; ay, the lonesome world
    Will always want the latest fairy tales.
    Al-Ma'arri

  13. #28
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,903

    Default Re: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by ihsan View Post
    not believe in Muhammad (S), but not fulfilling any of the conditions necessary of being a Prophet (S) is definitely not one of them.
    It is quite simple actually, Mohammeds teachings contradict the teachings of Moses.

    Therefore Mohammed is not a prophet in the mind of a jew.

  14. #29
    Veteran Member
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,903

    Default Re: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

    Quote Originally Posted by ihsan View Post
    Actually, I'm saying the Last prophet the Israelites waiting for, which the Israelites conflated into the concept of Messiah of Israel is Muhammad (S).
    So according to you Mohammed is the messiah?

    Anybdoy familiar with the Old Testament understands the concept of 'Messiah' and how it was used for many different personalities as well as objects.
    Actually "Messiah" is mentioned most frequently in psalms, and the "messiah" has a very specific role - the establishment of the kingdom of heaven on earth. He is a King, not a prophet per se.

    Mohammed has not done this, in fact the islamic world is anything but a beacon to the rest of the world, it is mired in meaningless 7th century tribal customs.

    The Messiah is not even mentioned in the first five books of the OT, meaning the Pentaceuch, meaning the Torah, but the Last Prophet, whom the Israelites were surely waiting for, even during the time of Jesus, is.
    There is no "last" prophet according to judaism.

    It is simply conflation, and such things happen when people commit 'tahreef' with the Book of God. Not only does it earn a person hell, it causes a whole lot of confusion and mis-understandings. This is precisely the reason why the Israelites were rendered into confusion regarding the matter. It is the same Son of Man, as well as Paraclete, that the Christians conflated with Jesus. They rendered themselves into confusion with the concept of the 'return' of Jesus.
    I understand the muslim position on this, its wrong however.

    Nor is the Dome of the Rock or the Temple the 'final' Temple. The 'final' Temple was and is the 'first' Temple, meaning the original House built by Abraham (AS), meaning the Ka'aba.
    Final = First? ....mental gymnastics - very entertaining, please continue....

    There is a reason that one of the directives of the Torah regarding the altar is that it faced southward. The Temple of the Israel was built by Solomon and it served as a place of worship for Israel, but when the Israelites performed their obligations at the Holy of Holies, they were facing south, whether wandering in Canaan or settled in Jerusalem. The Temple was a masjid, like the masjid established in Medina, which faced southward as well, towards the Ka'aba and it was the central point of the movement of the Israelites, just as Masjid An Nabawi was for the Prophet (S) and His Companions (R). All this means that it never was the Dome of the Rock or Temple and never will be.
    Honestly this bit is so much hogwash that it doesnt even merit a response.
    You are pulling more rabbits out of your hat, but hey dont let facts stop you...go ahead do your magic, its entertaining at the very least.

    They faced the ark of the covenant (where God "descended") - the Holy of Holies - jews dont pray to structures and meteors.
    The Kadosh Hakadashim was located in the westernmost end of the Temple building, being a perfect cube: 10 cubits by 10 cubits, by 10 cubits. The inside was in total darkness and contained the Ark of the Covenant, gilded inside and out, in which were placed the Tablets of the Covenant, the Rod of Aaron and a pot of manna. The Ark was covered with a gilded lid known as the "mercy seat" for the Divine Presence.
    worshipping buildings, cubes or meteors is anathema in judaism.

    Jews would never face the Temple, unless the Temple was where God was "present".
    Last edited by Algebra; 19th March 2010 at 00:28.

  15. #30
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Oct 2004
    Location
    Milky Way
    Posts
    7,698

    Default Re: Is jerusalem mentioned in the Quran

    So according to you Mohammed is the messiah?
    I've explained myself quite clearly.

    Actually "Messiah" is mentioned most frequently in psalms, and the "messiah" has a very specific role - the establishment of the kingdom of heaven on earth. He is a King, not a prophet per se.
    What does 'most frequently in Pslams' have anything to do with my statement regarding Messiah being mentioned in multiple different places in the OT, with the term being used for multiple different personalities and objects?

    Mohammed has not done this, in fact the islamic world is anything but a beacon to the rest of the world, it is mired in meaningless 7th century tribal customs.
    What does the Islamic world have to do today with what Muhammad and His Companions established over 1400 years ago? At least talk some relevant sense...

    There is no "last" prophet according to judaism.
    Actually, there is...

    I understand the muslim position on this, its wrong however.
    Actually, you don't understand it, nor are you in any way correct.


    They faced the ark of the covenant (where God "descended") - the Holy of Holies - jews dont pray to structures and meteors.
    And as Solomon is reported to have said, what house can contain you O Lord, clearly pointing to the fact that God does not actually dwell in that Temple that was established for him, meaning that what one calls God's 'house', and notice the term 'house' is not really his house. It is called a divine manifestation, when certain phenomenon happened, such as smoke descending into the room and filling the air.


    worshipping buildings, cubes or meteors is anathema in judaism.

    Jews would never face the Temple, unless the Temple was where God was "present".
    It is anathema to Islam also, as you are quite aware, so really, your childish responses make you look like a person with a deepseated grudge, and as I said earlier, a grdge most liekly caused by issues revolving your relatives. Why not just come out and admit it to your relatives that your an atheist instead of building up all this deep-seated frustration, followed by venting on this forum, in the name of attempting to gain a 'sincere' understanding of the Muslim religion? You seem to be wasting a lot of your time. Consider the latest example of this escapade. You very well know Jews, just like Muslims, surely faced a structure when praying, which was the temple, and just like Muslims, when they refer to such phenomenon as the 'presence' of God, they put it in quotes, because God does not actually dwell in the location they are referreing to. You very well know that a Muslim calls the Ka'aba, God's 'House', despite God not actually living there. You very well know Muslims don't face any Temple other than the Ka'aba, because it is where God is 'present'.
    Last edited by ihsan; 19th March 2010 at 14:52.
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
    God does not give them courage." - Bulleh Shah

Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 18th June 2009, 21:46
  2. Facing Jerusalem or Mecca?
    By Arnold in forum Islamic Discussions
    Replies: 17
    Last Post: 26th July 2007, 17:02
  3. Jerusalem in the Quran (download the E-book)
    By akhi_islam in forum Book Reviews
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 31st May 2006, 12:14
  4. Replies: 163
    Last Post: 9th January 2006, 21:08

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •