Ibn Abbas on Halal/Haram Meat

[aamantubillah]

This is from Al Ghazali's "People of Fiqh vs People of Hadith".

The hadith in question in one which says that the meat of animals with fangs is haram. It is interesting to note that the hadith that ibn Abbas is referring to is actually narrated by himself, ibn Abbas. So, it begs the question, how can Ibn Abbas reject a narration, per Ghazali, that he himself (ibn abbas) narrated as sahih). I kindly ask that you actually know what your talking about if you would reply. Thank you.

[ihsan]

A rather interesting point. There are other such hadith, such as ibn Abbass saying that Isaac was the one who was taken to be sacrificed in one narration and Ishmael in the other. He seems to be a special target of fabricated narrations, because of the length of his life as well as he being from the House of the Prophet. This must have been especially true during the time of the Abbassid era.

[hlatif]

Salaam brother AB,

The photo comes to the discussion in the middle of it. So, I am not clear as to what the Sheikh Ghazali is criticizing. However, before I proceed, we need to define the understandigs of NASKH=Abrogation:

1- The main understanding of the early muslims. NASKH meant most of the time: The presence of an Aya or hadeeth that will exclude a potential understanding of another Aya from the range of understandings of that particular Aya. So, the WE of the Qur'an is abrogated as in it is always prevented from being understood as ALLAH is more than one. Why? because there are clear Ayas that clearly say Allah is one indivisible and this abrogates the potential understanding of WE as multiple Gods. WE will still mean all the other things that it can mean except for mutliple Gods.

2- Abrogation of a ruling. This is the one that we understand today mostly and was understood at times by the early Muslims. Here one usually has something that was expressly accepted then prohibited or prohibited then accepted.

Now, if I understand the Sheikh's point correctly he considered the prohibition of animals of prey as abrogation of the Qur'an. I am not certain that it falls under abrogation. The reason is that it was not expressly permitted before to be expressly prohibited later and because the prophet prohibited many things not prohibited in the Qur'an. All we have are Ayat that tell us what is prohibited. This does not have to mean that what was not mentioned is always Halal. They are halal if the prophet(pbuh) did not prohibit them. However, if the prophet prohibited them, then he is just expanding the list of prohibited food and not abrogating anything in the Qur'an.

The only way I can see his point is through the Aya in Sura Baqara because it starts with INNAMA and that term seems to limit the ruling to what comes after it. However, that can be answered in two ways:

1- The Aya of Sura MAIDA came later and it already expanded the list of prohibited foods beyond what was prohibited in Sura Bawara. So, the restriction of prohibition was broken in Maida already. MAIDA abrogates what came before it because it is one of the latest Suras.

2- The Aya in Sura Baqara tells us what God prohibited. The hadeeth tells us what the prophet (pbuh). We are obligated to follow what Allah and His messenger ordered and prohibited. If the prophet prohibited it then there is no Aya from the Qur'an to say that he should retract his order. Therefore his order will stand because it received the tacit approval from God. Now if one wants to prove the hadeeths wrong then they have to go back to the isnad and not to what the hadeeth says or the issue of abrogation because it does not apply.

Personally, I feel that prohibition of animals of prey is a very environmentally friendly decision. There is nothing more destructive to wild life balance than killing the animals of prey.

It could be that he had a different point that I did not get and if so I would love to read it, perhaps in another page.

Take care all and have a great day.

Hussein

[vinod]

[Offtopic]

So, it begs the question, how can Ibn Abbas reject a narration, per Ghazali, that he himself (ibn abbas) narrated as sahih)

Salam AB, pls lookup correct usage of 'begs the question'.

[/Offtopic]
Regards

[aamantubillah]

Vinod, you remind me of a person who looks at a beautiful painting and asks what kind of nail it's being hung on. Thanks for the English lesson, but I honestly don't care. Peace.

[aamantubillah]

Salam Hussein,

I have attached the pages.

[hlatif]

Thanks brother,

I appreciate it. The points that I presented above still apply to Aya 6:145. There is an additional point. The Aya 6:144 mentioned 8 types of animals and the context of certain kinds amongst them that the people of Mecca made prohibited. The Aya 6:145 denies their claims and adds that pig is prohibited in addition and in particular. So, the Aya cannot be taken as to mean that everything else is halal in an absolute manner. It means that the animals that were mentioned in 6:144 are halal. It leaves open the prophet adding other prohibitions as long as Allah does not disapprove it. The other points are:

1- Aya in Maida already abrogated the potential restriction of prohibition. So, a hadeeth can then abrogate as well.

2- It is a prophet prohibition which is still binding as long as it is not rejected by Allah.

However, there is a known difference in opinion on this issue from the early Muslims and two contradictory narrations from Ibn Abbas on the same subject. So he either had an opinion and changed it or one of the two opinions attributed to him is wrongly attributed to him. The hadeeths in Bukhari and other places however were not narrated by Ibn Abbas.

I hope this helps and take care brother.


Hussein

[aamantubillah]

Wa salam brother,

Thanks a lot for the help.

[sumuque]

2- It is a prophet prohibition which is still binding as long as it is not rejected by Allah.

So Muhammad had the power to cancel certain things in Quran ?

[hlatif]

No, but he can declare certain things as haram if they are not expressly and particularly declared Halal in the Qur'an. That is not canceling God's orders.

hussein