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Thread: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

  1. #31
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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    Since when are you concerned with understanding Islam and Muslim leaders? This thread represents your repeated refusal to accept the meaning and implications of a particular word, which includes not only 10+ different translations by Muslims (indigenous and convert alike), but also A. J. Arberry (devising/deviser) and the very dictionary (Lane's Lexicon) cited in the obviously biased article as proof of their selective interpretation - none of which you have bothered to actually address, while you accuse me of grasping at straws... So your "spiritual discernment" has lead you to a conclusion that is not only contradicted by every acknowledged translator, dictionary, Arabist and simple common sense, but also provides another example of you giving a positive spin to the NT to very thing you have "condemned" when expressed in the Qur'an..
    Since when have I been interested in learning about Islam and understanding Muslim leaders? Answer: Since way before I came to this forum. My Rationale: Islam is a powerful major world religion, and it has had and continues to have a great influence in the world that, my family, friends and I live in. I think it is sad if there are any Christians not interested in learning about Islam. But my motive for learning about it is not to be a convert or revert as you would say. It is to be able to communicate misconceptions I think Muslims have about Christianity and even Islam, and of course misconceptions I have as well.

    I have read testimonies of Christians who have done the same about Islam as I am doing with Islam, and some of them had converted to Islam. That makes me think they weren't Biblical Christians; nevertheless, in the process of learning how to dispel these misconceptions, I hope to be acting civilly and respectfully. If I am not, I am failing as a Christian, and I don't mind being called on it. I don't believe I have shown disrespect for any individual on the forum that I haven't attempted to make right. Now showing respect doesn't mean I have to agree with any Muslim's interpretation of the Quran or Bible, but I am interested in hearing your interpretations.
    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    Makr means planning and anyone who feels that they are deserving of or have genuinely earned Paradise does not understand what is going on. In addition to fear, we also have hope and in that, Abu Bakr, the Prince of the Saints, was renown for his tenderheartedness and humility before God. That is the meaning of Abu Bakr's statement and you don't need to know Arabic to understand it. You just have to be willing to listen, when you have proven time and time again you are not. And given that the man you claim is God, according to your Scriptures, uttered "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me!?" in a moment of desperation and complete lack of trust in God, I find this entire discussion to be a little.... fraudulent.
    I appreciate that you call my ideas and thinking or concepts fraudulent rather than my person. I am okay with that.

    Okay, let me take your interpretation of "Makr" to be planning. Since I don't know Arabic, I will have to concede on this one; however, if you are correct, then that opens another can of worms and discrepancies in my mind's eye. Let me explain first why I think you have a misconception of the word with one more attempt then I'll explain the new problems I have accepting the meaning your Muslim leaders give to makr. I am taking the word makr in the context of the storyline for more reasons than saying Allah did best what the unbelievers did; for instance, he made it appear that Jesus was crucified. That is deception, tricky, foolery and a lie designed to mislead people to believe what is not true. That is the only context I can see, but the real deception wasn't that. It was to get Muslims to believe he didn't die for our sin; therefore, I see this as the greatest deception in the world today. This is consistent with Allah being who I understand him to claim: "The Best of Deceivers."

    Now, that I said I will accept it to mean the "best of planners" as you claim it means, this brings a new discrepancy; namely, Allah's best of plans as proven thus far to be a failure and a self defeating one at that. For example, in the process of Allah's plan to make Jesus' death appear to have happened, this gave rise to the greatest, largest or strongest religion in the world Christianity. At the time of Muhammad mostly the RRC. Now, that is not to say I agree with Catholicism, but Christianity as a whole overshadows Islam since it began and to date.

    How can an all powerful all knowing god bring about a self-defeating plan? More people believe Jesus died and rose from the dead than Allah's deception that states He didn't. Sorry, but I just don't see how anyone can worm there way out of this! IOW, if Allah's plan didn't fail, how was it a success?

    Finally, Jesus never showed a lack of trust. The father did forsake Him for a short time, because the world's sin went of Him; Jesus became a curse like the serpent Moses held up in the wilderness. People who look to Jesus are healed and saved just like those who looked at the snake Moses held up. Jesus said, "If I be lifted up, I will draw all men unto me" Our sin went on Jesus; we accept Him as Lord of our life, His righteousness on us. But Muslims will not be drawn to Jesus the way God wants! I am trying to understand why they want to be judged for their sin? God is merciful, but He is also just. Sin has to be paid for or God is not just. There is nothing we can do to make up for our sin. That is another spiritual deception people believe

    What goes along with this is during the Passover, the children of Israel were instructed to place the blood of the lamb on the door post of their homes hence the death angel would Passover that house; those who don't place the blood of Jesus to their lives will be claimed by the angel of death and place in a godless eternity. I don't want that to happen to anyone not even Hitler; so, now you know the truth of my motive. There is nothing more to me than that for being here.

    Peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 27th February 2014 at 00:49.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  2. #32
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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    If you had just asked us what we thought about the particular article you have been indirectly referencing for the past week, perhaps someone would have expressed to you their sentiments. At this point, I don't much interest, but I will say briefly regarding "your" sentiments, there is nothing inherently meaningful by Jesus being or appearing to be crucified (depending on your beliefs). Thousands of people were crucified before Pontius Pilate and thousands were crucified after them. Crucifixion means absolutely nothing in-and-of itself for no one but the Jews, who because of the Christian assertion cannot accept that Jesus was the Messiah. The original disciples of Christ and their followers were monotheist completely, did not believe in the Trinity and were essentially little more than practicing Jews who believed in Jesus and followed his reforms. That more people believe Jesus was crucified than was not has absolutely no theological implications.

    As for Christianity overshadowing Islam, if you want to play that East vs. West game, you can play it with someone else. I would not consider the fact that all of Latin America, for instance, was historically forcibly converted to Christianity upon the threat of death something to boast about. Nor would I consider the fact that the West (whom presumably you are referring to by "Christianity") rose to its current prominence entirely as a result of their complete and utter exploitation of South American gold, North American crops, African raw materials and 400 years of free labor under conditions unprecedented in human history something to boast of either.

    And Christianity most certainly did not overshadow Islam from its beginning. It actually tried to wipe Islam out repeatedly and failed every single time. Had the Ottomans not see Western Europe as the wasteland it was at the time in early Ottoman history, they would have continued or supported the push further north into Germany and Britian, but they did not consider the sacrifice worth it. Otherwise, German and English would probably have an Arabic script and we all would be speaking Arabic right now, as a good portion of southern Europe and Eastern Europe used to. Do you not know that the Eastern Orthodox and Coptic Churches only exist because of Ottoman patronage who protected them from the warring popes of the West? Go read a history book that wasn't written by a bishop and preferably doesn't have the last name Lewis or Huntington and we can perhaps have a real conversation in the future.

    And I am a "brother" by the way. That people no longer remember who Lumumba was is a little depressing...
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 27th February 2014 at 01:03.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

  3. #33
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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    If you had just asked us what we thought about the particular article you have been indirectly referencing for the past week, perhaps someone would have expressed to you their sentiments. At this point, I don't much interest, but I will say briefly regarding "your" sentiments, there is nothing inherently meaningful by Jesus being or appearing to be crucified (depending on your beliefs). Thousands of people were crucified before Pontius Pilate and thousands were crucified after them. Crucifixion means absolutely nothing in-and-of itself for no one but the Jews, who because of the Christian assertion cannot accept that Jesus was the Messiah. The original disciples of Christ and their followers were monotheist completely, did not believe in the Trinity and were essentially little more than practicing Jews who believed in Jesus and followed his reforms. That more people believe Jesus was crucified than was not has absolutely no theological implications. As for Christianity overshadowing Islam, if you want to play that East vs. West game, you can play it with someone else. But I would not consider the fact that all of Latin America, for instance, was historically forcibly converted to Christianity upon the threat of death something to boast about. Nor would I consider the fact that the West (whom presumably you are referring to by "Christianity") rose to its current prominence entirely as a result of their complete and utter exploitation of South American gold, North American crops, African raw materials and 400 years of free labor something to boast of either. And I am a "brother" by the way. That people no longer remember who Lumumba was is a little depressing...
    Sorry for the gender mix up. You are brother. I didn't know, but now I do.

    Well, I must say I admire your zeal even though it is not according to knowledge. One misconception Muslim have is that Christianity is not a monotheistic faith. The truth is Muhammad didn't bring anything new regarding monotheism the Jews and Christians were the first to believe it even during pre Islamic history when the Arabs had some 360 deities. Christians were saying God is one before Muhammad was born. No Christian believes God has partners or associates. It is what Muslim try to impute to us, because they don't accept Jesus is the son of God.

    The irony is that every time you say the sajada, know that you are associating the name of a slave messenger with your god. It doesn't matter that you don't see Muhammad as a prophet worthy of worship or not. You must still mention his name with Allah to be a Muslim. IMHO, that is an association.

    We know that Jesus is God's word hence He is eternal and uncreated and not a partner or associate of the father but the exact express image of all God's glory. Jesus reveals the father. Jesus refers to God as His father and the father calls Jesus His "Beloved Son." Your beef is not with me or any Christians; it is with God who is one with no partners or associates.

    Forget about the article it means nothing to me and proves nothing. I just used it to help you see what I believed from just reading the Quran in context. I don't need to read what people put on the internet. I read the Quran for myself and talk to Muslims to come to my own conclusions.

    It is true that Pagan Catholicism rose to power through exploitation that initially started out as a hunt for gold, power and fame, but if Allah didn't make something "appear" to be true that wasn't true, that Catholicism wouldn't have happened or true biblical Christianity as well.

    Personally, I don't consider Catholicism true Biblical Christianity any more than you consider the Quranist Muslims. BTW, they accuse the Shia and Sunni Muslims of shirk, because of the second part of the sajada, but they follow the Quran only and none of the hadiths. As far as exploitation, Islam has its fair share of it as well, but you have to do an objective study to see it.

    Finally, it means nothing that many guilty people were crucified. That is not the point. The point is there is no remission for sin except by the blood of Jesus. Jesus was the only innocent person that walked the earth. No one else could die to save you from drowning in sin. A drowning man cannot save a drowning man. Jesus was innocent and imputes that innocents on us, but we have to meet God on His terms not anyone else's terms.

    All I know of Lumumba is he was a black leader in the Congo of Africa. He was a male I shouldn't have known you were a brother LOL.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 27th February 2014 at 01:43.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    The irony is that every time you say the sajada
    Oh but if only you could see the irony in that sentence...yet so typical...

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Oh but if only you could see the irony in that sentence...yet so typical...
    Ron,
    Sorry I don't get it. Please explain what you mean by irony in quoting something that is not a complete sentence. IOW, it isn't even a statement, so I don't follow your point here or what is typical! What is typical is Muslims saying Christians associate partners with God, but not the other way around if that is what you mean.

    Regards
    BL
    Last edited by Burninglight; 28th February 2014 at 01:45.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    This has nothing to do with Ron's statement... Would you consider someone to be Christian if they did not believe (i.e., consciously rejected) that Moses was a prophet sent by God to Israel and believed him to be a historical fiction or worse?
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    This has nothing to do with Ron's statement... Would you consider someone to be Christian if they did not believe (i.e., consciously rejected) that Moses was a prophet sent by God to Israel and believed him to be a historical fiction or worse?
    No, I guess not! But why would you ask me this?
    I notice no one seems to answer most of my questions.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    I asked because I could not figure out another way to explain to you the ridiculousness of your arguments. Imagine how silly it would sound to you if someone accused you of "associating" Moses with God because you consider belief in Moses to be a condition of faith in Jesus Christ... Have a nice evening.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    I asked because I could not figure out another way to explain to you the ridiculousness of your arguments. Imagine how silly it would sound to you if someone accused you of "associating" Moses with God because you consider belief in Moses to be a condition of faith in Jesus Christ... Have a nice evening.
    But I don't have to confess the name Moses as God's prophet with God to be a Christian. Do you see the difference? You probably won't answer me, because you now know your argument is pawned, because you have to confess the name of Muhammad with Allah to be a Muslim. I can see the ridiculousness of your example, but, I do respect you as a brother of humanity Lumumba. Please respond and acknowledge my point. Have a nice evening as well.

    Peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 1st March 2014 at 01:25.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  10. #40
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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Acknowledge the utter limits of superficiality in your absurd thought process? Sure. I'm the one being ridiculous Is there even a point in us continuing to feign a discussion after this?
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by BL
    It doesn't matter that you don't see Muhammad as a prophet worthy of worship or not. You must still mention his name with Allah to be a Muslim. IMHO, that is an association.
    That is absurd logic. If just mentioning somebody's name next to God is the objection than there are probably lot of names in Bible that are mentioned along with God. I don't want to search probably a waste of time, since you seem to show double standards issues you seem to object in Quran if found in Bible you say they have context yet you don't do the same for those in Quran.

    Exhibit:
    Quote Originally Posted by BL
    You fail to look at context and spiritual application. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge. But the fearful and unbelieving are those who fear because they don't trust God.

    http://forums.understanding-islam.co...l=1#post185079
    And maybe you haven't realized but you have made contradiction in those sentences: (1) fearing is wisdom and knowledge (2) fearful don't trust God.
    And by the way, unbelieving usually don't fear God.

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    Acknowledge the utter limits of superficiality in your absurd thought process? Sure. I'm the one being ridiculous Is there even a point in us continuing to feign a discussion after this?
    Since you feel this way, probably not.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    That is absurd logic. If just mentioning somebody's name next to God is the objection than there are probably lot of names in Bible that are mentioned along with God. I don't want to search probably a waste of time, since you seem to show double standards issues you seem to object in Quran if found in Bible you say they have context yet you don't do the same for those in Quran..
    The point is not mentioning somebody's name next to God that is the objection, it is when you have to do it to be a Muslim that makes it an association, IMO. You don't see it that way is your opinion, but every time you say the sajada, you'll know in my opinion it is an association.


    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    And maybe you haven't realized but you have made contradiction in those sentences: (1) fearing is wisdom and knowledge (2) fearful don't trust God.
    And by the way, unbelieving usually don't fear God.
    I didn't say the fearful are unbelievers, but when Jesus comes back, the unbelievers will be fearful believers who will be condemned for what they have done on the earth
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by BL
    The point is not mentioning somebody's name next to God that is the objection, it is when you have to do it to be a Muslim that makes it an association, IMO.
    Association of what exactly? That Mohammad (pbuh) is messenger of god? How is that kind of association equals to shirk? Shirk = making someone God or equal to God and that is the objection to Trinity. When you say Jesus is God that is shirk, but saying in an oath (kalma) Moses/Jesus/Mohammad are only messenger(s) of God that is not shirk. Hence, your argument is either absurd trying to make something out of nothing to objection to Trinity as shirk in Islam or your logic is absurd.

    Summary:
    Trinity is shirk, and Islamic shahada/kalma is not.


    Quote Originally Posted by BL
    You don't see it that way is your opinion, but every time you say the sajada, you'll know in my opinion it is an association.
    What we say in sajada exactly?

    Quote Originally Posted by BL
    I didn't say the fearful are unbelievers, but when Jesus comes back, the unbelievers will be fearful believers who will be condemned for what they have done on the earth
    You said fear of God is wisdom, but fearful don't trust God. That is a contradiction, you or anybody can read your post again and see what it says.

  15. #45
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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Hyd: I think I proved the absurdity of his position is the most direct way imaginable and he still won't acknowledge. Somehow, in his mind, believing in a prophet as a condition of your belief in God is acceptable, but stating this outright is "association" of the type Muslims accuse Christians of (and ironically, Protestants accuse Catholics of). He obviously can't actually believe something so simplistically foolish, but this is what happens during arguments. Our guests is not the type you can reason with...
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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