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Thread: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

  1. #16
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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Ron and Lumumba:

    What I have shared doesn't make any person a fraud. The term "Fraud" is a very poor and judgmental word choice. Bias would have been a better word choice, but I don't believe it is bias on my part either.

    In all my posts you haven't been able to read the truth between the lines. For instance, Just because someone deceives someone once or twice that doesn't make him a deceiver. If someone steals something once or twice in their life, that doesn't make him or her a thief.

    When I said things were paraphrased from the Bible, I wasn't referring to Allah admitting He is the best of deceivers. Go back and check the context my friends. YHWH never said "I am a deceiver" or the best of them. But He will sent you a strong delusion since you refuse the love of truth He first gives you. That is not God being a deceiver, and it is not God doing what the unbeliever is or was doing like we can read in the Quran.

    In the Quran, I understand that Allah calls himself the "Best of deceivers." There is a big difference between being something and doing something for a reason and for a time. When someone refuses truth the deception they receive is what they brought on themselves even though the Bible gives God the credit for it. Moreover someone being a deceiver for God is not God being the deceiver. It means God allowed that prophet to be deceived. Typically, this is where many Muslims fail to make a distinction.

    Another example is when Jesus said, "I am the Way, the truth, and the life," Muslims will tell me "Yes he was for his time like Moses was for his and Muhammad for his time etc. But they fail to see that there is a difference between being and showing just like there is a difference between being and doing. Moses and all prophets showed the way for their time is true. They could never say "I am the way," but Jesus is the way and Jesus is the I am before Abraham. No other prophet could ever say that.

    You just don't know Jesus, and when I try to teach you about Him, you judge me, because you cannot gainsay the truth! Jesus is the truth and the only truth out there! BTW, read Matthew 7 and apply it to you lives before it is tool late!

    Peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 25th February 2014 at 00:14.
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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    In the Quran, I understand that Allah calls himself the "Best of deceivers."
    Not true. The verse says Allah is best of planners.

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    I looked at the video. Somehow I don't believe it is as simple as a dog on a lease analogy. I don't see a parent allowing their child to have free reign to where he will receive a much more severe consequence, because the parent loves his child, and he will deal with him quickly to get him on the right track so that the least amount of punishment or consequence is received to serve its purpose. A parent loves his child; so how much more does God love us? We don't see this love in the video presentation.

    The teacher in this video is speculating as if that is the way God works, but that is all it is. He shouldn't make conjecture sound like he knows that is the way God deals with those he loves. In fact, the god he describes shows no love by giving the dog a 400 foot lease as opposed to a foot long lease that will accomplish results without the worse possible consequence. I don't want the god this guy explains. My Creator is nothing like what he says or describes to me.
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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    Not true. The verse says Allah is best of planners.
    An English translation is not the Quran. Besides, it is a poor translation. The word "Makr" means deception in the Arabic. Moreover, deception makes sense in context. Because the verse states that the unbelievers plot, plan and scheme to deceive, and Allah is the best at what the unbelievers were doing. What were they doing? they were deceiving, but Allah does it best. That is the way I understand it.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    And an English dictionary is not the Qur'an. Hans-Wehr is a dictionary which was written in Egypt (if I am not mistaken) around the turn of the century, using Arabic newspapers and periodicals. Hence, it reflects Modern Standard Arabic and not the Classical Arabic (or Fusha) which the Qur'an reflects. It is a good dictionary for beginners (like myself) and people who are learning grammar because it is organized based on tri-lateral roots and helps reinforce grammar since it is organized on the 12 verb forms. To use a dictionary which defines colloquial spoken Arabic as a starting point of exegesis is like using the Urban Dictionary to interpret Shakespeare. In your own reference. In respect to meaning, Lane's Lexicon more accurately reflects classical Arabic, as he referred to classical dictionaries and in Lane's Lexicon, in addition to what is stated, we find:

    "evasion or elusion, a shift, an artifice or artful contrivance or device, a machination, a trick, a plot, a stratagem, or an expedient; he plotted or exercised art, craft, cunning or skill, in the management or ordering of affairs, with excellent consideration or deliberation, and ability to manage according to his own free will"
    And then proceeds to explain,

    Makar also signified "He managed with thought, or consideration, or acted with policy and practised stratagem, in war."
    Arabic is a language of etiquette and the meaning is contingent upon context, who is being spoken about, whom is being addressed and a whole number of contextualizations which have to be taken into consideration to proper understand the meaning. A particle like "ba" (i.e., usually translated as "in" or "through") has over 10+ different meanings depending on how it is used and the context. So for someone to claim that the meaning of a word is "deception", PERIOD, and Muslims are mis-translating the term into something positive is completely erroneous and ignores both the subtleties and expressive nature of the Arabic language. Makr means more literally machinations, guile, cunning, which in certain contexts are praiseworthy and in others they are blameworthy. That you refuse to acknowledge this with respect to the Qur'an, while you admit that the God of the New Testament DELUDES people into believing lies is asinine.

    What did the disbelievers do? They plotted against the Prophet. At times it entailed deception, at times it entailed economic embargoes, at times it entailed forming alliances against the Believers. Makr is not a 1:1 synonym for deceive and the very dictionary that the individuals who attempted to prove otherwise states so clearly and plainly. And what Ustadh Nouman Ali Khan was referring to is precisely the sorts of people the NT "deludes" into believing lies as a consequence of their obstinate refusal of the truth and active opposition to the Divine.

    You will undoubtedly deny all of this since you think that it is a strike against Islam and the Qur'an. So I will end with this for you to think about: in the article you cited, they left out one instance of makr being used, precisely because it argues against their claim. As an individual noted to me via private message, if you take many of the instances where the Qur'an uses the term makr and understand it as simply "deceive" it does not fit: "Pharaoh said: Do you believe in him before I give you permission? Indeed this is a [/COLOR][/FONT]makru lammakartumuhu in the city to drive out its inhabitants. But soon shall you know its consequences" (7:123) If makr = deception, how is the sorcerers believing in Moses after their exchange a "deception" merely because Pharoah did not yet give his permission? Additionally, if makr = deception, it would read, "Indeed this is a deception which you have deceived into the city to drive out its inhabitants" However, because makr actually means plot/machination/plan/scheme, you find it translated as "Indeed this is a conspiracy/plot/plan/scheme you have conspired/devised/planned/secretly plotted into this city in order to drive out its inhabitants." So you tell us, which makes more sense? That Pharoah accused his magicians of staging a competition that they would lose and reinforce Moses' claim in front of his people in order to undermine his authority in his own land or that Pharoah accused them of being deceitful simply for not getting his permission before they expressed their belief in Moses as a prophet from God?

    For you to pretend as if you are a master of Arabic or can even understand the Qur'an without referring to a translation is precisely fraudulent. Furthermore, for you to argue that the morality of the Bible is superior to the Qur'an because God in the former only SOMETIMES lies, deceives, inspires evil and incites people, while God in the latter proclaims himself to be better at makr against the makr of people attempting to murder, oppress and silence moral opposition to polytheism is simply a stupid argument. The way you understand it is wrong. Have a nice day.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 25th February 2014 at 02:07.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post

    Arabic is a language of etiquette and the meaning is contingent upon context, who is being spoken about, whom is being addressed and a whole number of contextualizations which have to be taken into consideration to proper understand the meaning. A particle like "ba" (i.e., usually translated as "in" or "through") has over 10+ different meanings depending on how it is used and the context. So for someone to claim that the meaning of a word is "deception", PERIOD, and Muslims are mis-translating the term into something positive is completely erroneous and ignores both the subtleties and expressive nature of the Arabic language. Makr means more literally machinations, guile, cunning, which in certain contexts are praiseworthy and in others they are blameworthy. That you refuse to acknowledge this with respect to the Qur'an, while you admit that the God of the New Testament DELUDES people into believing lies is asinine. .
    Context you say? Exactly! Of course that is the case with all languages. I thought I was bringing context into the interpretation and translation of makr of that verse by saying Allah does best what the unbelievers were doing. You just don't want to see or you are so subjectively involved that you cannot. I can see it objectively. Makr in that verse doesn't have a good connotation. Even Abu Bakr said he wouldn't trust the makr of Allah if he had one foot in paradise and one on earth. What makes Muslims think they can trust his makr? what makes you think you can trust Allah's makr where Abu Bakr couldn't?


    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    What did the disbelievers do? They plotted against the Prophet. At times it entailed deception, at times it entailed economic embargoes, at times it entailed forming alliances against the Believers. Makr is not a 1:1 synonym for deceive and the very dictionary that the individuals who attempted to prove otherwise states so clearly and plainly. And what Ustadh Nouman Ali Khan was referring to is precisely the sorts of people the NT "deludes" into believing lies as a consequence of their obstinate refusal of the truth and active opposition to the Divine. .
    You are being subjective again. What the unbelievers were doing wasn't good or sincere but crafty subtle and deceptive, and what they did the verse implies Allah is the best at. The Bible says no such thing about God. I am just calling a spade a spade! or calling it the way I see it.


    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    You will undoubtedly deny all of this since you think that it is a strike against Islam and the Qur'an. So I will end with this for you to think about: in the article you cited, they left out one instance of makr being used, precisely because it argues against their claim. As an individual noted to me via private message, if you take many of the instances where the Qur'an uses the term makr and understand it as simply "deceive" it does not fit: "Pharaoh said: Do you believe in him before I give you permission? Indeed this is a [/COLOR][/FONT]makru lammakartumuhu in the city to drive out its inhabitants. But soon shall you know its consequences" (7:123) If makr = deception, how is the sorcerers believing in Moses after their exchange a "deception" merely because Pharoah did not yet give his permission? Additionally, if makr = deception, it would read, "Indeed this is a deception which you have deceived into the city to drive out its inhabitants" However, because makr actually means plot/machination/plan/scheme, you find it translated as "Indeed this is a conspiracy/plot/plan/scheme you have conspired/devised/planned/secretly plotted into this city in order to drive out its inhabitants." So you tell us, which makes more sense? That Pharoah accused his magicians of staging a competition that they would lose and reinforce Moses' claim in front of his people in order to undermine his authority in his own land or that Pharoah accused them of being deceitful simply for not getting his permission before they expressed their belief in Moses as a prophet from God?.
    Be that as it may we are not looking at just the word as you say but the context. The context stated for deception fits for that verse that Allah does best what the unbelievers do. I don't understand why you try to worm out of it???
    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    For you to pretend as if you are a master of Arabic or can even understand the Qur'an without referring to a translation is precisely fraudulent. Furthermore, for you to argue that the morality of the Bible is superior to the Qur'an because God in the former only SOMETIMES lies, deceives, inspires evil and incites people, while God in the latter proclaims himself to be better at makr against the makr of people attempting to murder, oppress and silence moral opposition to polytheism is simply a stupid argument. The way you understand it is wrong. Have a nice day.
    I pretend nothing; moreover, one doesn't have to be an Arabic scholar to make a logical inference or pick up the connotation and context of what is being said. You also missed my point about there being a difference between deceiving someone and being a deceiver. Satan, for instance is not just one who deceives; he is a deceiver and the father of all lies. You keep using the term fraudulent out of context and inappropriately. Don't do that please!! You have a nice day as well.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 25th February 2014 at 04:21.
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  7. #22
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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    I'm sorry... Are you still trying to argue that Abu Bakr's Arabic declaration (a language which you do not understand) meant that he did not feel safe from God's deception until God place him in Paradise? Unlike yourself and your Jewish brethren who believe they are "saved" or "God's children" such that He will not punish them for the sins they commit, even against others, saints like Abu Bakr were constantly afraid that they were in fact hypocrites who did not measure up to the standard of righteousness established by the prophets and messengers.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    I'm sorry... Are you still trying to argue that Abu Bakr's Arabic declaration (a language which you do not understand) meant that he did not feel safe from God's deception until God place him in Paradise? Unlike yourself and your Jewish brethren who believe they are "saved" or "God's children" such that He will not punish them for the sins they commit, even against others, saints like Abu Bakr were constantly afraid that they were in fact hypocrites who did not measure up to the standard of righteousness established by the prophets and messengers.
    Sorry? yes, you should be. You say Abu Bakr was afraid? That is even worse. He not only lacked trust in Allah, but he was fearful. Fear is the opposite of faith; besides, Abu Bakr was not questioning himself sister; he was questioning the trust worthiness of his god. You call that being a saint? It is written: "But the fearful and unbelieving will have their part in the lake of fire..."

    The Jews don't necessarily believe in salvation, heaven or hell; so, this is an irrelevant point to bring up. As far as the Arabic language I don't understand, I don't have to. There are English translations of the Quran, and I have spiritual discernment given to me by the Spirit of God.

    If I have to learn Arabic to be able to understand Islam and Muslim leaders, this makes a case that Islam is not a universal religion as I had already suspected. It is an Arabic religion. IMO, that is why the Quran says: "To you be your religion and to me be mine"

    You are constantly trying to worm out of truth as you make caustic statements directed at the person. Please don't attack the messenger for not liking what is posted; attack the message. We don't have to attack anyone. Truth alone attacks. Our job is only to speak truth in love.

    Peace

    You appear to be grasping at straws.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 25th February 2014 at 20:13.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    BL,

    Please don't teach me English. You are a fraud because you are deliberately trying to deceive the readers of this forum that you are here for positive reasons, that you were interested in Islam, that you were open minded and wanted to learn (and teach), that you know Islam and Arabic well enough to speak in-depth about them. We know you are biased. But if that's what I wanted to say I would have said it. You're a fraud because your claim of being Christian belies your behavior on this forum. I know many good Christians who even in their witnessing to people are kind and gentle and try not to offend. Their method is not to act like they know the other persons religion or denigrate the other person's faith but to invite them to hear the message of Christianity. They are not offensive and unkind; you are. You don't fit the character of Christian as I often hear defined.

    So I think it's clear that fraud is applicable. Add to that that you're posts are unwelcome and you're continuing to be a troll, flamer, etc... You're wearing out your welcome and you've done no good for your cause. Maybe you should leave on your own accord rather than break more rules and be forced out.

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Burninglight said:
    Fear is the opposite of faith
    His Bible says:
    Ecclesiastes 12:13 - Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this [is] the whole [duty] of man.

    Psalms 33:8 - Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.

    Luke 1:50 - And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Burninglight said: Fear is the opposite of faith

    His Bible says:Psalms 33:8 - Let all the earth fear the LORD: let all the inhabitants of the world stand in awe of him.

    Luke 1:50 - And his mercy [is] on them that fear him from generation to generation.
    You fail to look at context and spiritual application. The fear of the Lord is the beginning of wisdom and knowledge. But the fearful and unbelieving are those who fear because they don't trust God. They are the ones trying to merit favor with God which is not possible so they can never be sure they did enough good to out weigh the evil in their lives. There is a night an day difference between the two. Just like there are to different ways of being sorry. There is a godly sorrow that leads to repentance and there is a sorry I was caught that leads to death.

    Ron, it is obvious you are looking for any excuse to ban me!

    I have to go to work. Talk to you later.

    Peace
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    BL,

    Please don't teach me English. You are a fraud because you are deliberately trying to deceive the readers of this forum that you are here for positive reasons, that you were interested in Islam, that you were open minded and wanted to learn (and teach), that you know Islam and Arabic well enough to speak in-depth about them. .
    Please don't call me a deceptive fraud and a flaming troll.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    We know you are biased. But if that's what I wanted to say I would have said it. You're a fraud because your claim of being Christian belies your behavior on this forum. I know many good Christians who even in their witnessing to people are kind and gentle and try not to offend. Their method is not to act like they know the other persons religion or denigrate the other person's faith but to invite them to hear the message of Christianity. They are not offensive and unkind; you are. You don't fit the character of Christian as I often hear defined. .
    Everyone has biases. You said I am a fraud, because my claim of being a Christian belies my behavior, but that is not an explained reason. What behavior belies my Christianity? Do you know what a Christian should be like? Please address the behavior you are speaking of.

    Aren't you acting like you know my religion when you say I am not living up to it? Aren't you doing what you accuse me of? And to make it worse, you cut down my person as others have. Where have I cut down anyone's character on the forum? I am sharing what I believe to be true and what I understand about what I read as you can and do (as others) about the Bible. It seems I am attacked, because that is what many people do when they cannot gainsay the OP. Do you call that fair and unbiased?
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    So I think it's clear that fraud is applicable. Add to that that you're posts are unwelcome and you're continuing to be a troll, flamer, etc... You're wearing out your welcome and you've done no good for your cause. Maybe you should leave on your own accord rather than break more rules and be forced out.
    So, you think? What rule have I broken? Is it against the forum rules to debate religion here? Maybe, I'll take you up on leaving, because I feel I am being forced out already. I find that most Muslims can dish it out, but cannot take a fraction of what they dish out even when it is not being dished out.

    BTW, I wasn't teaching you English; I was telling you that the terms you use to describe me are dishonest, inappropriate, condescending and disrespectful to say the least, and it is only too obvious you are taking up an offense for others and looking for a reason to force me out.

    If I were to use the language used on me on others such as calling them fraud, liar, deceptive, troll flamer and many other such things, I would have been banned long ago. Why don't you compare the language I use to the language used against me? If you do that, I will appear as a Christian saint by comparison and you call me bias.

    I will only address those that address me. I will post less if I am not addressed. I am really tired. I have shared the truth of what I honestly believe, and I have tried not to be anymore offensive than necessary, but when debating religion, offensive things will inevitably be said; I am surprised this surprises you.

    peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 26th February 2014 at 02:22.
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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Dear Lumumba:
    I'm sorry to you. Because of name calling, I think I came across harsher and sharper than I intended making you the brunt end of my frustration. I apologize.
    peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 25th February 2014 at 20:24.
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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    If I have to learn Arabic to be able to understand Islam and Muslim leaders, this makes a case that Islam is not a universal religion as I had already suspected. It is an Arabic religion. IMO, that is why the Quran says: "To you be your religion and to me be mine"
    Since when are you concerned with understanding Islam and Muslim leaders? This thread represents your repeated refusal to accept the meaning and implications of a particular word, which includes not only 10+ different translations by Muslims (indigenous and convert alike), but also A. J. Arberry (devising/deviser) and the very dictionary (Lane's Lexicon) cited in the obviously biased article as proof of their selective interpretation - none of which you have bothered to actually address, while you accuse me of grasping at straws... So your "spiritual discernment" has lead you to a conclusion that is not only contradicted by every acknowledged translator, dictionary, Arabist and simple common sense, but also provides another example of you giving a positive spin to the NT to very thing you have "condemned" when expressed in the Qur'an.

    Makr means planning and anyone who feels that they are deserving of or have genuinely earned Paradise does not understand what is going on. In addition to fear, we also have hope and in that, Abu Bakr, the Prince of the Saints, was renown for his tenderheartedness and humility before God. That is the meaning of Abu Bakr's statement and you don't need to know Arabic to understand it. You just have to be willing to listen, when you have proven time and time again you are not. And given that the man you claim is God, according to your Scriptures, uttered "My God! My God! Why have you forsaken me!?" in a moment of desperation and complete lack of trust in God, I find this entire discussion to be a little.... fraudulent.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 26th February 2014 at 03:18.
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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    May peace be upon you.
    In search of truth first of all you should not look into only one religion so do look at others too, and most importantly think by your self, ponder on the life and most important questions about it. try to inspire yourself by the nature and the grand design of universe and when nature inspires you then think of big questions.
    MOST IMPORTANTLY DON'NT JUST READ OR LISTEN QURAN TRY TO GET INTO IT , TRY TO UNDERSTAND IT , UNDERSTANDING MAKES REAL DIFFERENCE.

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