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Thread: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

  1. #1
    salaam
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    Question if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    what else after this can show him the correct guidance?

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    ummm... nothing
    i guess
    You shall know them by their posts

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    All those who do not believe in Resurrection hold in reverence the graves of their ancestors. He must need to read quran online and search online different books of different religious then he come to know that Hazart Muhammad is the last prophet of Allah and Quran is the book of guidance. Read quran online is the best way to know about quran and its history.

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Another wonderful book of life guidance. No one religion or human offers ALL there is to learn and know. It's good to read and compare ALL religious texts and writings, in order to better see God's design and works.

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by xrillionaire View Post
    ummm... nothing
    i guess
    Nothing you guess? good luck then. When someone rejects the gift of salvation through Jesus Christ, what's left? I don't guess. I know there is nothing but darkness and the absence of love and light. It is a place of weeping and gnashing of teeth as Jesus spoke of. He said you will die in your sin unless you believe I am He. The only thing you have to support rejection of what Jesus said is that the Bible is corrupted and that doesn't cut it
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by salaam View Post
    what else after this can show him the correct guidance?
    The Holy Bible friend; the Holy Bible! For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten son that whosoever believeth in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. Jn 3 :16
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by salaam View Post
    what else after this can show him the correct guidance?
    If a person doesn't believe (the Bible) after reading or hearing the gospel, what else after this can show him or her the correct guidance?

    It is written in the Bible that those who refuse the love of truth, God sends them a strong delusion that they might believe a lie. It is scary when I read and hear in the Quran (in the original Arabic) that Allah does best what the unbelievers do. What did the unbelievers do? That is what Allah does best!

    The unbelievers, scheme, plot and plan to deceive.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 21st February 2014 at 22:30.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by xrillionaire View Post
    ummm... nothing
    i guess
    You don't know. You have to guess? ummm...

    The difference between us is you guess nothing; I know something!
    Last edited by Burninglight; 22nd February 2014 at 17:27.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    when I read and hear in the Quran (in the original Arabic)
    Really? If that were the case you wouldn't have written what you did.

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Really? If that were the case you wouldn't have written what you did.
    I beg to differ. Does not the Quran state that the unbelievers scheme, deceive, plot and plan, but Allah is "the best of planners" in a poor English translation of Muhammad's Arabic Quran? The Qur'an openly states many times that Allah is the 'best deceiver'. The root word used in these verses is Makr which means deception. I rest my case!!! http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah_the_Best_Deceiver
    BTW, the Bible states that Satan is the father of lies and the author of confusion. This begs the question: What is the difference between the best of deceivers and the father of lies?

    I don't agree with everything on the website I posted; I am citing it as a source just to back up what we are in dispute about and that is all. IOW, I don't like or believe sites that are just against Islam to be against it without proof, but if they can show cause, I do take it into consideration. I hate any false statement about Islam just as much as Muslims do.

    Peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 23rd February 2014 at 18:57.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Veteran Member lumumba_s's Avatar
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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    You sure you want to go down this road?
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    BL,

    You're proving yourself to be a fraud. Where does your Christianity hide when you are being deceptive.

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    BL,

    You're proving yourself to be a fraud. Where does your Christianity hide when you are being deceptive.
    Ron:

    I am proving proving myself a fraud? How so? I don't follow. How are you coming to that conclusion? Do you mean a fraudulent Christian? Or do you mean I am not telling you the truth when I say I hate false things said about Islam or any religion for that matter.

    If you are going to say I am proving myself a fraud, can you prove that I am being deceptive. Isn't that like calling someone a liar? IMO, that would attacking one's character; it is something I wouldn't presume to do to you or anyone here.

    The things I share are things I honestly believe to be true; therefore, you should dispel the misconceptions, if it is indeed one, rather than attacking the character of a person. At least that is what I thought moderators are supposed to do.

    Peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 24th February 2014 at 06:26.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  14. #14
    Veteran Member lumumba_s's Avatar
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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron
    BL, You're proving yourself to be a fraud. Where does your Christianity hide when you are being deceptive.
    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
    I am proving proving myself a fraud? How so? I don't follow...
    Let me help you out...

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
    I beg to differ. Does not the Quran state that the unbelievers scheme, deceive, plot and plan, but Allah is "the best of planners" in a poor English translation of Muhammad's Arabic Quran? The Qur'an openly states many times that Allah is the 'best deceiver'. The root word used in these verses is Makr which means deception. I rest my case!!!http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah_the_Best_Deceiver BTW, the Bible states that Satan is the father of lies and the author of confusion. This begs the question: What is the difference between the best of deceivers and the father of lies?
    Yet in another thread, when you realized the very same theme was also expressed in the Bible, you said:

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
    This verse paraphrase the many NT Scriptures that came before...
    In which you are obviously referring to verses like these:

    "Micaiah continued, “Therefore hear the word of the Lord: I saw the Lord sitting on his throne with all the multitudes of heaven standing on his right and on his left. And the Lord said, ‘Who will entice Ahab king of Israel into attacking Ramoth Gilead and going to his death there?’ “One suggested this, and another that. Finally, a spirit came forward, stood before the Lord and said, ‘I will entice him.’ “‘By what means?’ the Lord asked. “‘I will go and be a deceiving spirit in the mouths of all his prophets,’ he said. "‘You will succeed in enticing him,’ said the Lord. ‘Go and do it.’ “So now the Lord has put a deceiving spirit in the mouths of these prophets of yours. The Lord has decreed disaster for you.”" (2 Chronicles 18-22)

    "Therefore say unto the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord God; Repent, and turn yourselves from your idols; and turn away your faces from all your abominations. For every one of the house of Israel, or of the stranger that sojourneth in Israel, which separateth himself from me, and setteth up his idols in his heart, and putteth the stumblingblock of his iniquity before his face, and cometh to a prophet to enquire of him concerning me; I the Lord will answer him by myself: And I will set my face against that man, and will make him a sign and a proverb, and I will cut him off from the midst of my people; and ye shall know that I am the Lord. And if the prophet be deceived when he hath spoken a thing, I the Lord have deceived that prophet, and I will stretch out my hand upon him, and will destroy him from the midst of my people Israel." (Ezekiel 14:6-9)

    NOTE: In the context in which the word "naba" is used in the Bible, it often means fortuneteller or soothsayer and not merely "prophet" as it is often translated like in these verses.

    But in response to such verses in the Bible (which are even more explicit in detailing God DIRECTLY deceiving/lying to/misguiding disbelievers and/or non-Jews) , you explain:

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
    The NT Bible states; Those who refuse the love of truth God sends them a strong delusion that they might believe a lie... God knows how to deliver a godly man out of temptation and reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment. God will not always strive with man; he that being often reproved and hardens his neck, he will be destroyed and that without remedy. Jesus said, when the blind lead the blind they both fall into the ditch.
    Yet when the Qur'an expresses something similar (not that God DECEIVES a prophet so that He can make an example out of him or that God incited a spirit against a non-Jewish king and had it lie to their prophet so that He could give justification of Ahab to attack), but merely that the people who disbelieve and actively plot and plan against the community of Believers, God allows them to continue in their own self-deception and "plots" against them in defense of His people, you retort:

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight
    The Qur'an openly states many times that Allah is the 'best deceiver'. The root word used in these verses is Makr which means deception. I rest my case!!!http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Allah_the_Best_Deceiver BTW, the Bible states that Satan is the father of lies and the author of confusion. This begs the question: What is the difference between the best of deceivers and the father of lies?
    So you cite "Allah is the Best of Planners" as proof against Islam (ignoring that your own source uses all contemporary dictionaries which include meanings that are not negative [i.e., "... to plot, to exercise art or craft... act with policy, practice strategem"]), but when the Bible expresses something similar, you give the exact same explanation given by Qur'anic exegesites and theologians.

    So when Ron comments that you are proving yourself to be a fraud, I will have to agree. But it isn't your fault. That is typically what happens when Christians attack the Qur'an using Atheist sources, forgetting in their fervor to stop the tide of Christian conversion to Islam, that the very same ideas, criticisms and arguments apply just as equally to the Bible. So we ask you, what is the difference between the Father of Lies and someone who incites others to lie for their own strategic purposes?

    And here is Nouman Ali Khan's masterful explanation of a similar verse from Sura al-Fil:

    Last edited by lumumba_s; 24th February 2014 at 19:29.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: if a person does not believe(In Quran) even after reading it or hearing it read,

    I couldn't have said it better...and to add to the insult he says:

    "It is written in the Bible that those who refuse the love of truth, God sends them a strong delusion that they might believe a lie. It is scary when I read and hear in the Quran (in the original Arabic) that Allah does best what the unbelievers do. What did the unbelievers do? That is what Allah does best!"

    He's so well versed in Arabic he had to cite the page above to prove his point. Fraud pretty much sums it up. He's so distraught about the Qur'an he doesn't see the irony in saying God sends delusions so people believe a lie.

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