what is the real disease of the deniers of the Hereafter

[Ratatosk]

Salam,

Your clarification did make your point clearer, which I reckon was the point. While minute similarities are merely tangential to the topic being discussed, I will gladly concede with the distinction the buddhistic paradigm does indeed have the concept of consequence. This, I believe, is at the very core of the discussion. The difference in point being there is no person this will benefit; the karmic principle is not personal, there is neither any real "next" life, neither any real "prior" life. The difference is major, not merely semantic jibber-jabber. Nevertheless, I understand your point and will gladly drop it. It does not change what I asserted earlier:

"The thread is about the categorical lack of morals in people that do not ascribe to a belief in the Hereafter, an assertion I maintain is nonsensical. A single observation would render the assertion untenable, and I have observed innumerable instances of people with a transcendent moral code while not believing in a Hereafter. Ergo, I must argue the assertion in the opening post is manifestly false."

Regards,

[The_Other_Admin]

the buddhistic paradigm does indeed have the concept of consequence. This, I believe, is at the very core of the discussion.

Yup.

there is neither any real "next" life, neither any real "prior" life.

As it is personal or not, that is not my argument. But as far as next life is concerned, I would argue, there is, since ending up in Naraka is a direct result of person's karma. This result of karma to a hellish plane do constitutes of next life, otherwise, there would be no point of being born in Naraka as a result. But discussion is getting off topic now.

As for your assertion, it is tangled issue, so I'm not gonna get into that. As for the OP, I believe it is based on the Quran so relevant passages have to be looked in the Quran.

[The_Other_Admin]

So far the only passage i can find is this one, but it is about the hypocrites:

Of the people there are some who say: "We believe in Allah and the Last Day;" but they do not (really) believe.
Fain would they deceive Allah and those who believe, but they only deceive themselves, and realise (it) not!
In their hearts is a disease; and Allah has increased their disease: And grievous is the penalty they (incur), because they are false (to themselves).

(2:8-10)

[ihsan]

The Quran argues for the Day of Judgement from multiple angles, the moral argument being just one of many. To argue that a person denies the Hereafter from simply this premise isn't necessarily true.

[MF]

you can look at it this way too: "what is the real disease of the believers of the Hereafter"

why is it a disease to believe or not believe?

[Ratatosk]

MF,

It might be due to not-perfect command of the English language. Inflammable prophets, remember?

The core topic is not really about faith or religion at all. It is merely the age-old "natural law vs. legal positivism" discourse, albeit dressed up in an Islamic tux. It's as old as the hills. Authority, especially legal such, was yet another favourite topic of the Olde Greeks. It goes way, way back, this dialogue. You had philosophy in school, no?

Regards,

[sumuque]

The Quran argues for the Day of Judgement from multiple angles, the moral argument being just one of many. To argue that a person denies the Hereafter from simply this premise isn't necessarily true.

Ahhh! the question of Judgment day and Hereafter .. It seems we mortal just got greedy because we don't want to give up the Idea that there will be death and we will gone forever, there will no benefits of life we enjoy daily, there will be no food, there will be no sex and there will be no Wine, but even what is the point living forever ??

I personally think its pointless even to have such an absurd Idea of living forever, there will be no purpose, no benefits for doing something over and over again. oh yea as somebody suggested, the first 100 years will be interesting, or may be next 100 years, after that, there will be no joy because everything will be same as always for eternity .. and eternity after that .. and eternity after that..

Death in our lives give us the Idea that life is short and there is an end to it, this is what motivates us, not the imaginary heaven which will be a punishment forever.

[ihsan]

Ahhh! the question of Judgment day and Hereafter .. It seems we mortal just got greedy because we don't want to give up the Idea that there will be death and we will gone forever, there will no benefits of life we enjoy daily, there will be no food, there will be no sex and there will be no Wine, but even what is the point living forever ??

I personally think its pointless even to have such an absurd Idea of living forever, there will be no purpose, no benefits for doing something over and over again. oh yea as somebody suggested, the first 100 years will be interesting, or may be next 100 years, after that, there will be no joy because everything will be same as always for eternity .. and eternity after that .. and eternity after that..

Death in our lives give us the Idea that life is short and there is an end to it, this is what motivates us, not the imaginary heaven which will be a punishment forever.

The above may be true if you do not believe in an evolutionary and dynamic view of God's creative activity... Paradise, per the Quran, is not some static world, but one that is ever-changing, divorced of repetitivity and boredom. Man's desires do not exceed the breadth of God's creative vision.

As far as even this life, I have never come across a person that wants to die, because life is 'repetitive'. Men fear loss of what they already possess in this world, including the death of loved ones, despite the fact loved ones are nothing new to these men.

[Ratatosk]

I have never come across a person that wants to die

I have met several people that want to die.

One thing that is perplexing to me about the ever prevalent fear of non-existence is why is it so scary to people? Does it hurt? Granted, this is off topic, but it's interesting nonetheless.

[sumuque]

The above may be true if you do not believe in an evolutionary and dynamic view of God's creative activity... Paradise, per the Quran, is not some static world, but one that is ever-changing, divorced of repetitivity and boredom. Man's desires do not exceed the breadth of God's creative vision.

As far as even this life, I have never come across a person that wants to die, because life is 'repetitive'. Men fear loss of what they already possess in this world, including the death of loved ones, despite the fact loved ones are nothing new to these men.

What kind of paradise are you talking here ? and where in Quran does it say that its a ever changing place ?

[ihsan]

In surah Baqarah, the parable is in reference to the fruits that the people of Paradise will see, which they thought they had eaten before, because of their resemblance. When they taste it, the taste will be totally different.

[sumuque]

In surah Baqarah, the parable is in reference to the fruits that the people of Paradise will see, which they thought they had eaten before, because of their resemblance. When they taste it, the taste will be totally different.

So you assume that this is the ever changing paradise ? Not at all, Muhammad painted a very clear picture of Paradise and there is nothing which suggests its a ever changing place, apart from wine, women and fruits, big gardens etc etc.

Muhammad said that people in paradise will always get Virgins whom no man or jinn "yatmithhunna", or other statements like these, so you think this may be every changing ? it will be a settled place my dear Ihsan, you need to prove your case that paradise in Quran is a ever changing and interesting place.