Hijab and TV

[vinod]

Women in full black burqa (head to toe covering) giving TV shows.

http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&sect...=4&m=11&y=2009

[MF]

hmmm.. it is so weird in my eyes.

[vinod]

I find heels and mini skirts to be very weird too. I find all those dresses of fashio models on the fashion runway to be very weird as well.

[MF]

I wonder if you dislike the miniskirts as much as I dislike the burka. For me the burka represents more then just cloth. It is more a form of opression rather then expression.

I dislike this picture too and I think the person is totally nuts, but it is expression instead of opression

[Ramsey]

I wonder if you dislike the miniskirts as much as I dislike the burka. For me the burka represents more then just cloth. It is more a form of opression rather then expression.

I dislike this picture too and I think the person is totally nuts, but it is expression instead of opression

I know a few girls who like the headscarf and burqa because they feel safe in it. They're not Muslims either, they just like it and wish they could wear it more often.

[Kabeer]

I wonder if you dislike the miniskirts as much as I dislike the burka. For me the burka represents more then just cloth. It is more a form of opression rather then expression.

I dislike this picture too and I think the person is totally nuts, but it is expression instead of opression

Expression of what? Maybe he became like that through some kind of opression unpon him from society that drove him that way.

And the girls wearing miniskirts and high heels that is something society imposed on them too. It is custom. In a way all these examples are extremes

I am sure there are Muslims who view miniskirts and such in the same way you view the Burkha. You are standing on other sides of the fence with introverted views.

Peace

[vinod]

I wonder if you dislike the miniskirts as much as I dislike the burka. For me the burka represents more then just cloth. It is more a form of opression rather then expression

MF, the sense of weirdness is one of those emotions that may or may not be grounded in a disturbing fact. We usually have symbols that are associated with meanings based a lot on our own social conditionings. I tend to think that women wearing short skirts and high heels lack self-esteem and are starving for attention to boost their self-esteem. Is that true? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are women who wear high heels and mini-skirts and who are fully confident of who they are and who can engage me in an intellectual conversation and beat me at it. Similarly, the burqa too can give me thoughts of the wearer's oppressed lives. Is that true? Maybe, maybe not. There are women who wear it who are as confident of who they are as any other mini-skirt wearing woman. Not all of our sensibilities about alien cultures are indications of something wrong in those cultures. They could well be simply indications about our own mindsets.

[Sadiq_b]

Nice post, Vinod. Exactly my sentiments...

[DocW]

In my humble opinion I agree with the sentiments of MF. Burqa is not part of Islamic Shariah and is a cultural issue. In addition we need to look at the whole picture. What percentage of women who wears burqa do it willingly and how many are forced to wear it due to cultural, social and religious pressures. I would feel like a caged animal behind one of these. The difference between burqa and mini skirt being that women are not forced to wear mini skirt but in Muslim counteries and Muslim families abroad. It can be forcibly enforced upon reluctuant users

[MF]

MF, the sense of weirdness is one of those emotions that may or may not be grounded in a disturbing fact. We usually have symbols that are associated with meanings based a lot on our own social conditionings.

Sense of weirdness is verry relative, I agree. Beauty too. I'm used to the "western" ideal of beauty that includes showing your body, make-up and high heels.

I tend to think that women wearing short skirts and high heels lack self-esteem and are starving for attention to boost their self-esteem. Is that true? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. There are women who wear high heels and mini-skirts and who are fully confident of who they are and who can engage me in an intellectual conversation and beat me at it.

Samelike, not every burka is imposed. In my country it is not like in Saudia Arabia. An estimated 6% of 16 million people living in the Netherlands are Muslims. But there are thought to be fewer than 100 women who choose to wear the burqa.

That means some do seem to actally choose to wear it but knowing those numbers, you can easily conclude that if the burka becomes obligated here (in my country I mean) like it is in Saudia and other ultra orthodox countries.. its not a voluntary choise! Woman have to listen to the mullahs who tell them to dress this way and they may not question these rules.

They could well be simply indications about our own mindsets.

I like your example of miniskirts but there is one big difference and I would like you to show me if I'm wrong in this. The difference is that miniskirts, high heels, make-up, tanned skin and you name it.. its all a beauty ideal and beauty ideals surely differ in alot of parts in the world. In one certain african tribe its beautyfull if you have a fat a$$ as a woman. In the western world woman sometimes try to look like anorexia patiens.

Anyway, the difference is that the burka is something to hide beauty, the burka itself is not a beaty ideal at all.. it is the opposite, to become less attractive as possible. It is a crime if even an ankle is shown, probably men have spontatious ejaculations at the sight of an ankle. Sorry but burka is supression of woman. Woman have to hide for the sex drive of men. Why not teach the men have to control their beastal behavier? they can!

In my humble opinion I agree with the sentiments of MF. Burqa is not part of Islamic Shariah and is a cultural issue.

Way to go!

[Yahya Sulaiman]

Whether or not it's oppression depends on whether or not it's enforced. There is supposed to be no coercion in religion (Koran 2:256), and if your own conscience alone doesn't tell you that as well, something is seriously wrong with you. Nothing, however, is wrong with someone wearing something like that by choice, even though the Koran itself says nothing more than to cover your bosom and all that.

[vinod]

That means some do seem to actally choose to wear it but knowing those numbers, you can easily conclude that if the burka becomes obligated here (in my country I mean) like it is in Saudia and other ultra orthodox countries.. its not a voluntary choise! Woman have to listen to the mullahs who tell them to dress this way and they may not question these rules

We don't know the numbers. That is where you are working off assumptions in your mind. Your assumption could be right or wrong. The point is that we don't know.

Anyway, the difference is that the burka is something to hide beauty, the burka itself is not a beaty ideal at all.. it is the opposite, to become less attractive as possible. It is a crime if even an ankle is shown, probably men have spontatious ejaculations at the sight of an ankle

There are many reasons, stories around why one wears the burqa. You know one (mentioned in the quote above) that may be true to some extent. But individual women may wear it simply because it increases their sense of piety - a very hard to rationalize concept. Some may wear it because it is part of their identity - another very real but hard to rationalize idea.

You need to keep your mind open to many possibilities and simply acknowledge that the opinion you hold now is one unverified possibility, not a statement of absolute truth.

Regards

[MF]

We don't know the numbers. That is where you are working off assumptions in your mind. Your assumption could be right or wrong. The point is that we don't know.

Offcource we do, it is an estimation, its not my invention, I have a source.

Its not resonable to say we have no estimation at all. And its objective, not subjective. My country is small and densley populated, its not like you can hide a million burka wearing muslims where no-one notices you.

You need to keep your mind open to many possibilities and simply acknowledge that the opinion you hold now is one unverified possibility, not a statement of absolute truth.

Again, the estimation of the numbers are objective. And the burka is religion related.. offcource there way be some exceptions but this is not the general rule. Why Muslim women wear the veil

Its like you don't really have an opinion here and I have noticed it on other discussions lateley that you say alot but really actually nothing.. everything is possible and it doesnt lean to one possibility in specific.

The reason Muslim woman wear a veil (or the burka for that matter) is because the Quran tells them to dress modest. That is the main reason and not like you say that it can be many reasons and the religion based one is unverified. Thats just not fair. The difference though is that in countries such as the Netherlands, it becomes a matter of women's human rights to wear what they want and in ultra orthodox countries it is not. There is really nothing unverified about that.

Why muslim woman weir the veil  

The Koran, Islam's holy book and treated as the literal word of God, tells Muslims - men and women - to dress modestly.

Male modesty has been interpreted to be covering the area from the navel to the knee - and for women it is generally seen as covering everything except their face, hands and feet when in the presence of men they are not related or married to.

However, there has been much debate among Islamic scholars as to whether this goes far enough.

This has led to a distinction between the hijab (literally "covering up" in Arabic) and the niqab (meaning "full veil").

Hijab is a common sight among Muslim women, a scarf that covers their hair and neck.

Niqab consists of covering up completely, including gloves and a veil for the face - leaving just a slit for the eyes, or covering them too with transparent material.


Tell the faithful women to lower their gaze and guard their private parts and not display their beauty except what is apparent of it, and to extend their scarf to cover their bosom

Koran, 24:31 (English translation)
This form of dress is rarer, although it has been growing in recent years, and it is this which former UK Foreign Secretary Jack Straw says he objects to at face-to-face meetings with his constituents.
Muslim scholars have debated whether it is obligatory to don the niqab, or whether it is just recommended without being obligatory.

There have also been more liberal interpretations which say the headscarf is unnecessary, as long as women maintain the sartorial modesty stipulated in the Koran.

Scholarly dispute

The holy text addresses "the faithful women" who are told to shield their private parts and not to display their adornment "except what is apparent of it".

Scholarly disputes revolve around what this last phrase means.



Find out about different styles of Muslim headscarf


In graphics

Does it refer to the outer surface of a woman's garments, necessitating that she cover every part of her body - ie don the full niqab?
Or does it give an exemption referring to the face and the hands, as well as conventional female ornaments such as kohl, rings, bracelets and make-up?

The latter interpretation has been adopted by some of the most prominent scholars from Islamic history, such as Abu Jafar al-Tabari, who favour the hijab option.

There are additional Koranic instructions - seen as ambiguous and therefore much debated - for women to draw the "khimar" (or scarf) to cover the "jayb" (or bosom/upper chest), and for "the wives and daughters of the Prophet and the women of the believers to draw their "jalabib" (or cloaks) close round them".

Religious and cultural traditions vary across the Muslim world, stretching from Indonesia to Morocco.

But it may also be left to the Muslim woman to decide for herself, whether she wants to cover up fully with the niqab, as an expression of her faith and Islamic identity, or not.

In countries such as France and Turkey, where there are legal curbs on religious dress, it becomes a matter of women's human rights to wear what they want.

But at the same time the niqab is such a powerful statement that more liberal Muslims sometimes can be heard objecting to it, especially in more developed societies, where women have fought long and hard to shake off restrictions seen as outdated and imposed by men.

[MF]

Whether or not it's oppression depends on whether or not it's enforced.

indeed, verry smart observation

[vinod]

MF

I had a look at your source and found no numbers there related to burqa being forced or wilful.

Regards