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Thread: al-Sistani and Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi

  1. #91
    Administrator Ratatosk's Avatar
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    Default Re: al-Sistani and Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi

    Salaam,

    Could you perhaps elaborate on what exactly the "US/Zionist" entity is?
    Quote Originally Posted by Hash
    then they divided the muslims ummah into tiny pieces, insted of one islamic state, 52 or 54 states
    Who are these elusive 'they' in the above quote?

    You seem to be under the impression that the entire arabic region and the states around the world with a muslim majority were a single state before the year 1924, no? This is manifestly not so. Most of the states we know today did, in fact, exist before 1924. Granted, Iran was known as Persia back in those days. If I am mistaken, I apologize.

    peace

  2. #92
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    Default Re: al-Sistani and Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi

    Hash,

    I understand what you are saying but you're not answering the questions. It's important that I know the source of all this. Let's take it step by step, I really want to understand your concepts.
    You know the extent US/zionist fear islam.
    Why do they fear Islam?
    Islam is the only obstacle left infront of the US/zionist entity.
    An obstacle to what?
    First of all, they destroyed the khilafah
    Please provide the history of this with some factual sources.
    at the time of 1924, then they divided the muslims ummah into tiny pieces, insted of one islamic state, 52 or 54 states.
    Please provide the history of this with some factual sources.
    Only three contries, saudi arabia, indoneisa and iran uphold the islamic law. ( an even in those three, one of them, indonesia, has implemented a 'moderate' more relaxed islamic law!).
    None of these countries are run by the Shari'ah. Can you show me what you mean by this statement?
    With the media attacking islam from the mental approch
    I assume you are claiming that the media is controlled by the governments. Can you show me how this is true?
    In palestine, we have been oppressed, chechina persecurted, afganistan humiliated, iraq destroyed, and the list goes on.
    Palestine- The Arab nations handed it over on a silver platter.
    Afghanistan- Used the help of the U.S. then proceeded to wage war on each other.
    Iraq- Saddam committed more torture and killed more Iraqis than the U.S. could do in 20 years time at this rate.
    This is no excuse for the "West" but I just want to make sure you're not giving double standards here.
    The fatal blow, dear brothers, was the destruction of the khilafah. With no unity, and no islamic army we were helpless!
    I disagree. What good would a Khalifah government system do for a bunch of corrupt nations? I would propose that leaving God, the way of His Guidance; that's what caused the Muslims to fall. No one can destroy the faith of people or their relationship with the Almighty because it is promised that God will help the righteous. However, a Khalifah system can be destroyed, by no less than "evil" men...according to you. So which is the better route?
    in one instance, the whole entire islamic army went on a deadly expediation to save one muslim women, these days 30 000 bosnian muslim women raped, but there is no islamic army to save them this time...
    When and where did this happen? Who was this "Islamic army?" Who was this woman? A source would help.

    I hope you will answer my questions.

    Regards

  3. #93
    Administrator Ratatosk's Avatar
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    Default Re: al-Sistani and Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi

    Salaam,
    Quote Originally Posted by Hash
    Half the population either dead, homeless.
    Refering to Iraq, this would mean 11.5 million people dead or homeless, since the population total of Iraq amounts to some 23 millions. It is manifestly not so.
    Quote Originally Posted by Hash
    Afganistan is he same, if not worse.
    Could you please provide some source for this statement? In conjuction with the previous quote, this would mean more than half the population dead or homeless. It is manifestly not so.

    I understand that you are saddened by the situation. We all are. It would be beneficial, though, if you could provide at least some sources to the made assertions.

    Regards,

  4. #94
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    Default Re: al-Sistani and Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi

    Ratatosq, you do not believe that the figures i provided are correct. Maybe because you have yur news from iraq from western media, which is biased towards america. The truth in iraq, is shrouded in a thick fog of lies and decit. The sources i am telling you this if you want to know, are al jazeerah, jihadunspun.com, al arabia, mafrakat al islam, and other islamic reporters agency working in iraq with the resistance forces.

    Ron, some of your questions regarding sources, i have answered to ratatosq, please read the earlier portion of this post, i provided my sources. The slources i providid are but a few main souces. Concerning your question on who 'they' are and who the US/zionist enitity are, this answer is simple and answers it self. They, refer to the west, the west refers to the US and its allies of cronies, Britain etc. The US/zionist enitity answers it self as i mentioned! The US (united states of america=america) and zionist (jews-Israel).

  5. #95
    Administrator Ratatosk's Avatar
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    Default Re: al-Sistani and Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi

    Salam,

    Peace, Hash. I check out Al Jazeera almost daily, but I haven't come across any reports of over 11 million people in Iraq either dead or homeless. Neither does Jihad Unspun carry any such report.

    It seems strange that the United States and Israel (which didn't even exist at that time, by the way) would have had very many benefits from the Treaty of Peace and the following Armistice Convention with Mustafa Kemal's Turkey in 1924. If anything, Mustafa Kemal was not very well recieved in the west.

    Regards,

  6. #96
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    Peace Mighty Ratatosk.

    I think that what the enlightened youth in question was implying when he meant "half the pop..." was "a lot of the pop....", u know in the vernacular. Now shoo! Silly squirrel, go and dig nuts under a different tree.

  7. #97
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    Default Re: al-Sistani and Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi

    Salam,

    Scuttling off, as per your instructions.

    peace

  8. #98
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    Lol!! Thats an amusing word "scuttle". It wouldnt be an example of that dodgy thing, onomatapoeia or something? Would scurry be a more appropriate substitute?

  9. #99
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    Default Re: al-Sistani and Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi

    Hash,

    I know people that work at both Al Jazeera and Al Arabiyya and I watch both of them on a regular basis. None of what you say has ever been reported by either. So either you misread, misheard or misunderstood. If you don't feel like answering the questions that's fine but it doesn't leave much room for a discussion.

    Regards

  10. #100
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    Isnt Ron just bad to the bone?

  11. #101
    Ansar Al-Haq
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    Assalamu Alaykum,
    I agree with what Ron and Ratatosk have said for the most part. I am against making blanket statements completely. But I found that that was what Ratatosk was doing when he implied that any notion that Islam is under attack is horse manure. I found that particularly insulting and siturbing because there clearly is much resentment towards muslims in the western media and even amongst many ordinary citizens who are ignorant of Islam's teachings.

    When I told a non-muslim colleague that I was a muslim one day, he muttered some joke to his friend about my saying a-la-la-la-la and running into building and blowing it up. These feelings are there but they are supressed behind formalities. This guy only mentioned it because I have known him for some time and he knows me to be very friendly and easy-going, so he didn't feel so bad making the joke.

    But it hurt. It hurt to see that these ideas of hatred are embedded in the minds of people living in western countries.


    So Islam is certainly being attacked at many different levels. And we should recognize that. I think Ron and Ratatosk agree with me on this, and there really isn't a difference of opinion here, but I just wanted to clarify that.


    With regards to a military attack on muslims as some members are suggesting, I don't think that is the case right now, but it could easily happen, what with certain groups calling for an attack on the "snake's nest" (Saudi Arabia). And muslims are being persecuted everywhere in the world, but that is not directly by the west. I think the reason they get some of the blame is because their governments and newsgroups turn a blind eye on the sufferring, when they have the potential to help.

    Just clarifying my view...
    Ansar Al-Haq

  12. #102
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    Default Re: al-Sistani and Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi

    Salaam,

    I agree with many of your points, dear Ansar Al-Haq. The story about your colleague implying exactly what he did is just sad. His wisecrack might have in his eyes seemed funny, but it's quite a good example of ignorance.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-Haq
    and even amongst many ordinary citizens who are ignorant of Islam's teachings
    That's just it, isn't it? A big, nay, the biggest enemy is ignorance. I can see ignorance on both sides, and I can see proponents in both camps whip themselves into a lather, proclaiming war on terror and jihad and whatnot. I don't know, but to me these kinds of measures aren't very constructive. If anything, they will only serve as a hotbed for ignorant buffoons, making any and all steps towards peaceful and tolerant co-existance even harder to take. If there is a war that's needed right now, it's a war against ignorance.

    peace

  13. #103
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    Living as a minority in Europe does worry me. I fear more for Muslims who live in mainland Europe. This is because Europe has a sad history of treating minorities who happen to be 'distinct', and what's worse have the gall to want to be 'distinct'. Arthur Hertzberg, a US rabbi in the Conservative Jewish tradition, wrote a book called The French Enlightenment and the Jews. If you read what was being demanded of Jews in Europe during the 1920s and 1930s, and then see the (apparent) mood in Europe today, it does make you think. God forbid such a calamity.

    For all its "liberal" preaching to the world, Europe can seem like a very intolerant place if you have the wrong skin colour, wrong name and wrong religion.

  14. #104
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    Yes same here. England is a pleasure to live in, for the time being. One thing i have understood about these people though, is that if the Quran and the Messenger was sent to them, they would have been angels. Apart from the worship and belief in One God, they live decent, moral lives (generalising a bit here).

  15. #105
    Veteran Member MF's Avatar
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    Default Re: al-Sistani and Abu Mus'ab Al-Zarqawi

    Quote Originally Posted by razwan1979
    Europe can seem like a very intolerant place if you have the wrong skin colour, wrong name and wrong religion.
    both multiculturalism and tolerance are under broad attack, offcource the kife slides at both sides, radicalism is intolerance also.

    It depends wich country in Europe, the Netherlands are considered the most tolerant country, and perhaps way too tolerant when it comes to the drug policy, anyways tolerant enough to tolerate the gay marriage for example.. but in France they want to ban on the headscarf if they havent already done so, well I think thats against the constitution (freedom of religion, speach etc)

    Europeans ponder how the tolerant can best deal with the intolerant

    “THE jihad has come to the Netherlands.” That was the verdict of Jozias van Aartsen, parliamentary leader of the power-sharing Liberals (VVD), after the violence following last week's murder in Amsterdam of Theo van Gogh, a film-maker, by a Muslim radical. Attacks on mosques and Muslim schools were met by retaliatory attacks on churches. A raid on a terrorist cell in The Hague turned into a street battle featuring hand grenades and wounded policemen, before two suspects were arrested.

    This sorry tale raises a big issue not just in the Netherlands, but across Europe: how far should liberal societies tolerate the intolerant? For 20 years the instinct of many has been to defend the rights and cultures of growing numbers of Muslim immigrants, even radicals. Any other approach, it was feared, would pander to racists. But both multiculturalism and tolerance are now under broad attack.

    In the Netherlands, Pim Fortuyn, a gay maverick, popularised the argument that Muslim immigrants were promoting values inimical to Dutch traditions. When he was murdered in 2002, his political movement all but collapsed. But some of his arguments found a new advocate in Ayaan Hirsi Ali, a female Somali immigrant and former Muslim who is now a liberal member of parliament. She urges the Dutch to insist forcefully on the superiority of western liberal values. Ms Hirsi Ali was threatened, along with Mr Van Gogh, after they made a film together that attacked Islamic fundamentalists' treatment of women.

    Voters are also turning to a new champion, Geert Wilders, a renegade member of parliament thrown out by the liberals. Polls show that his party-in-the-making might win 7-17 seats if an election were held now, largely thanks to his attacks on Islam. The government urges restraint; but it is tightening immigration controls and cracking down on Islamic extremists.

    In France, Nicolas Sarkozy, now finance minister but once interior minister, commented recently that “whether I like it or not, Islam is the second biggest religion in France. So you've got to integrate it by making it more French.” His government has a two-pronged approach to its 5m-strong Muslim population. It has tried to contain the radicalism of Islamists by co-opting them. And it has used a tough security regime to curb troublemakers.

    To the first end, Mr Sarkozy last year set up the French Council of the Muslim Faith, an official voice for French Islam. When hardliners won elections to its regional branches and governing council, he said this was no disaster: it was best to bring such groups out of the shadows. Yet his strategy has had mixed results. A power-struggle rages in the council, threatening moderates. But one mark of the council's success was the reaction to the seizure in Iraq of two French journalists whose captors want the repeal of a ban on the headscarf in state schools. All shades of French Islam condemned the capture.

    France has a strikingly harsh anti-terrorism policy. It has had no qualms in making the most of laws allowing the detention of terrorist suspects without trial for months on end. All four of its nationals repatriated from Guantánamo Bay were detained on a judge's instruction on their return to France. Dominique de Villepin, Mr Sarkozy's successor as interior minister, has been unyielding in his determination to expel imams guilty of hate crimes. When an expulsion order against Abdelkader Bouziane, an Algerian cleric based near Lyon, was overruled in the courts, Mr de Villepin changed the law—and Mr Bouziane was on the next plane out.

    For Mr de Villepin, the trade-off between security and civil liberties is a fine one. But he insists “we must never find ourselves in a position of powerlessness.” The French monitor activity at mosques across the country, reckoning that of 1,500 Muslim prayer places, some 50 preach a radical form of Islam. This need not mean violence, but Mr de Villepin urges vigilance: “radical Islam can be used as a breeding ground for terrorism.” The French are also keen to co-operate with other European countries, fearful that their tough regime might otherwise move the problem to “softer” neighbours. With this in mind, Mr de Villepin has secured agreement with Britain, Germany, Italy and Spain to share intelligence on radical Islamists who attend training camps.

    In Germany, home to 3.5m Muslims, over three times as many as the Netherlands, fears of violence and jihad are somewhat smaller. Admittedly, Islamic extremists could hit anywhere, but most Muslims in Germany are from Turkey (2.6m) or Bosnia (170,000), and espouse a more moderate form of Islam. Police have found few links between Islamic groups in Germany and the Netherlands. Yet Germany is not oblivious to the threat. As in France, the government is getting tougher on Islamic fundamentalists, even as it tries to foster integration. This double strategy underpins Germany's new immigration law: it facilitates the expulsion of Islamic radicals, but also makes language classes mandatory for immigrants.

    In the same spirit, EU immigration ministers, meeting in the Netherlands, signed up on November 10th to common principles, both tender and tough, for integrating newcomers. They must be helped to take part in peaceful politics; faith must be respected, but not used to curb freedom.

    In Germany, as elsewhere, there is now more emphasis on toughness. In October, after four years of legal manoeuvring, Germany ejected Metin Kaplan, the Turkish founder of an illegal Islamic group. There is less tolerance for radical Islamists using legal tricks to stay in Germany. The rule of law must “show its edge”, says Otto Schily, the interior minister.

    After the Van Gogh murder, calls for Europe's open societies to be more aggressive towards Islamic radicals can only get louder. “Militant Islamism is only a tiny force in Europe”, wrote the conservative Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung, “yet it is dangerous, because many societies on this continent have elevated their defencelessness into a virtue.” Yet the risk is that, rather than the intolerant learning tolerance, the tolerant become intolerant too.

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