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  1. #31
    Veteran Member sumuque's Avatar
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    Default Re: God created the world in 7 days

    Quote Originally Posted by MF View Post
    Sorry hlatif is a nice intelligent man, however that quote.. it is nonsensical.



    If you would only do the same
    Dear MF, they will not going to accept that these in this particular Hadith Muhammad meant literal days and you know why too !! god did not create universe or earth in Six or seven days, its just illogical. However accepting that Muhammad said such things would create other problems.

    Even if we agree on the suggested interpretation from Muslims, they can not rationalize what this 7 step creation was or mean ? If you read Hadith, Muhammad said many things came to their existence out of no where on a particular day or so called period, zap...zap... zap.. interestingly Trees and vegetation came before Sun was placed in order.. ..

    oh well, I think we should leave it here.
    So, too, the creeds of man: the one prevails
    Until the other comes; and this one fails
    When that one triumphs; ay, the lonesome world
    Will always want the latest fairy tales.
    Al-Ma'arri

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    Default Re: God created the world in 7 days

    The Length of God's Days by Moiz Amjad

    Article:

    One of the objections levied against the Qur'an by Mr. Jochen Katz is:

    Does Allah's day equal to 1,000 (Sura 22:47, 32:5) or 50,000 years (Sura 70:4)?

    Observe how similar 32:5 and 70:4 are worded (in English - I don't know the Arabic) "ascend unto him in a day the measure whereof is [fifty] thousand years [of your reckoning]."

    Maybe it originally was "fifty thousand" in both and "fifty" dropped out in one place? A corrupted manuscript? Or does God just not know how to relate the length [of] his days to human years?

    To fully comprehend the objection, let us first have a look at the referred verses of the Qur'an.

    Verse 22: 47 translates as:

    "and surely a day of your Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning"

    Verse 32: 5 translates as:

    "He decides all affairs from the heavens to the earth then these [affairs] go up to Him in a day, the length of which is a thousand years of your reckoning."

    Verse 70: 4 translates as:

    "The angels and the ruh ascend upto Him in a day the length of which is fifty thousand years"

    I believe that even if one is ignorant of the Arabic language and is solely dependent on the English translations of the Qur'an, one cannot say that the stated verses contradict each other in any way.

    In the article that follows, I shall first of all show that there is no contradiction in the stated verses from the perspective of the English language. Secondly, I shall show that as in the English language, there is absolutely no contradiction in the verses from a purely Arabic perspective.

    In Allah alone I put my trust.

    From The English Perspective

    The word "day", in the English language is not used only for the 24-hour time interval, that extends from one sunrise to the other. It is used in a number of connotations. For example, in 'one day I'll get my revenge', the phrase 'one day' is used for sometime in the future, not for the 24-hour interval of time. The phrase: 'this day and age', means nowadays. When somebody says: 'Would there ever be a day when the weak and the oppressed are heard?', the phrase 'a day' means a time in the future. When Edmund Spencer said:

    Ah! when will this long weary day have end,
    And lend me leave to come unto my love? (Epithalamion)

    by the word 'day', he was not referring to the 24-hour time interval, but to the time of agony that he was going through at the time. When Martin Luther King, Jr. said:

    I have a dream that one day on the red hills of Georgia, the sons of former slaves and sons of former slave-owners will be able to sit together at the table of brotherhood . . . that one day even the state of Mississippi, a state sweltering with the heat of injustice, sweltering with the heat of oppression, will be transformed into an oasis of freedom and justice . . . that my four little children will one day live in a nation where they will not be judged by the color of their skin but by the content of their character.

    by the phrase 'one day', he meant a particular time in future, not the 24-hour time interval.

    It is quite obvious from the above examples of everyday English usage that the word 'day' is used in a number of meanings. One of these meanings is 'a particular period of time'. Keeping this meaning of the word 'day', have a look, once again at the English translation of the referred verses of Qur'an:

    The first verse (22: 47) says:

    "and surely a day near your Lord is like a thousand years of your reckoning"

    This verse simply means that for Allah, a thousand years of our reckoning is no more than what a 24-hour day is for us.

    The second verse (32: 5) states:

    "He decides all affairs from the heavens to the earth; then these [affairs] go [back] up to Him in a day, the length of which is a thousand years of your reckoning."

    This verse informs us that Allah's plans for the heavens and the earth are implemented and referred back to Him, in a day (i.e. in a period of time) that is like a thousand years of human reckoning.

    The third verse (70: 4) says:

    "The angels and the ruh ascend upto Him in a day the length of which is fifty thousand years"

    This verse informs us that it takes the angels and the ruh (i.e. Gabriel) a day (i.e. a period of time) which is as long as 50 thousand years in our reckoning, to ascend upto Him.

    Look at the three verses closely and you shall see that they relate to different phenomenon. The first one states that a thousand years of our reckoning is like but a day for Allah; the second one states that Allah's plans are implemented and referred back to Him in periods which are as long as a thousand years for us, in other words it says that Allah makes plans for thousand-year intervals; while the third one states that it takes the angels and the ruh a period equivalent to what is 50 thousand years for us, to ascend to the Most Exalted. Obviously, if the Qur'an, at one place, had said that a thousand years of our reckoning is like a day to Allah, while at another had stated that in the eyes of Allah, one day is like 50 thousand years of our reckoning; or if it had said at one place that it takes the angels a thousand years to ascend to the Most Exalted, while at another had stated that the angels ascend to Allah in 50 thousand years of our reckoning; or if at one instance it had declared that Allah's plans are implemented and are referred back to Him in one thousand years while at another had stated that the period involved in this implementation and reference is 50 thousand years, it, most certainly, would have been a case of contradictory statements. The case, as everybody can see, is not so. The Qur'an has stated different time periods for different phenomenon. How can anyone, in such a case, say that the statements in question are contradictory?

    Mr. Katz is of the opinion that because it takes the angels 50 thousand years to ascend to Allah and because "all affairs are returned" to Allah through the angels, therefore, verse 32: 5 and 70: 4 are actually referring to the same phenomenon. He writes:

    The last two verses are talking about the same thing. The word which is usually translated affair(s) (amr in 32:5), is a Qur'anic term that has to do with the Spirit and angels in that verse. That verse talks about the "amr" that "will asend to Him." The context tells us of some(thing) who (that) ascend and of course descend.

    Sura 17:85 says:

    They ask thee concerning the Spirit (of inspiration), say the Spirit (comes) by command [Amr] of my Lord.

    Notice the connection between "Amr" and "Spirit" in the above verse.

    Then Sura 97:4 says:

    Therein come down the angels and the Spirit by God's permission [Amr].

    Here again the connection between the "Amr" and "the Spirit and the angels."

    Mr. Katz's point (in my own words) is: because the affairs are returned to Allah through the angels, therefore, verse 32: 5 and 70: 4 are actually referring to the same phenomenon and a difference in these two verses thus amounts to a contradiction.

    In my opinion, the answer is quite simple. Verse 70: 4 states that it takes the angels and the ruh, a period of 50 thousand years to ascend to the Most Exalted. It does not say that the Most Exalted, takes this period to reach the angels and the ruh, if and when he so desires. If He wants to summon the angels, or make His presence felt to them, it could be before the winking of an eye. What is it, in these verses (or any other ones) that hinders such an assumption?

    Whatever the case may be, it is quite clear that the two verses concern different phenomena. One relates to time it takes the angels and the ruh to reach the Exalted 'chambers' of Allah, and the other to the time interval of God's planning for the world and its implementation. It is obviously not necessary that to receive these plans or to report their implementation, the angels and the ruh have to ascend to the Exalted 'chambers' of Allah.

    From The Arabic Perspective

    The Arabic word, translated in English as 'day' is 'yawm'.

    The point that needs to be established from the Arabic perspective is that the word 'yawm' in the Arabic language, like the word 'day' in the English language, is not restricted in its meaning to the 24-hour interval of time.

    Some references from the Arabic literature are provided below to establish this point:

    One of the pre-Islamic poets says:



    (mata yusa'idona'l-wisa'lo wa dahrona yawman: yawmo nawan wa yawmo Sadudi)1

    The word 'yawm' in the above verses has been used to mean phases and periods, it can by no means be taken to mean the 24-hour time interval.

    `amar ibn Kulthum says:



    (beyawmi karihatin dharban wa ta`nan aqarra bihi mawa'li'ki'l-`oyu'na. wa inna ghadan wa inna'l-yawma rahnun wa ba`da ghadin bema la ta`lami'na)2

    In this verse, the words 'ghadan', 'al-yawm' and 'ba`d ghadin' meaning tomorrow, today and the day after tomorrow have not been used in their literal sense but to imply the present, the near and the far-off future.

    Abu'l-a`la' al-Mu`arri' has also used the word 'al-yawm' in the same meaning. He says:



    (thalathatu ayyamin hia al-dahro kullohu wa ma hunna illa al-amsi wa'l-yawmi wa'l-ghad)3

    Ibn abi wabakil says to his beloved:



    (yatu'lu'l-yawm la alqaki fihi wa yawm naltaqi fihi qasiru)4

    Once again, the word 'yawm' in this verse simply refers to the time when the poet is with, or away from, his beloved; it does not mean the 24-hour interval of time, that we usually term as a 'day'.

    Husain ibn Matir al-asadi says:



    (lahu yawmo bu'sin fihi linna'si abwasu wa yawmo na`i'min fihi linnas an`amu)5

    In this verse again, the word 'yawm' is used for different phases in the life of the subject, not for the 24-hour time interval in his life.

    Shammar says:



    (yawmaho: yawmo nadan wa yawm ti`ani)6

    Ibn Manzur, in his book Lisa'nu'l-Arab has referred to this verse of Shammar and has derived the following conclusion:



    (wa yawmaho: yawmo ni`am wa yawmo bo'usin, fa'l-yawm hahuna bema`na al'dahar ay: howa dahrohu kazalik)7

    In the light of the above references, we can easily infer that the word 'yawm' is used not only for the 24-hour interval of time but also for a phase in one's life and a period of time etc.

    As in these poetic verses, the word 'yawm' in verse 32: 5 and 70: 4 has been used for a period of time. This period of time, is different for two different phenomena. I do not see any reasonable grounds to say that such difference amounts to a contradiction.

    I am sure if Mr. Katz will consider my arguments with an open mind, he shall see that his argument of numerical discrepany, at least in this particular case, holds no ground. I request Mr. Katz to look at the Qur'an with the same mental attitude with which he looks at the Bible. . .

    is that asking for too much?

    © Copyright 1998. All Rights Reserved with the Author


    --------------------------------------------------------------------------------

    1- How is it possible for us to be together for our time consist [only] of two days: A day of being away from each other and a day when we are stopped from meeting.

    2- [I inform you of] the battle day which was the day of the unleashed sword and the spear, which was a source of great pleasure for your cousins; today, tomorrow and the day after entail things that are hidden from you [I, therefore, inform you only of events of the days gone by].

    3- Time consists only of three days, these are: yesterday, today and tomorrow.

    4- It is a long day in which I do not meet you; while a day in which we meet is a short one.

    5- He has a day of battle, in which people are faced with the toughest of times and a day of generosity when people are blessed with bounties.

    6- His life consists of two days: the day of bounty and the day of battle.

    7- He has two days: the day when he is bountiful and the day when he is in the battle field; the word 'day' here means time, i.e. His life consists of two types of times.

  3. #33
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    Default Re: God created the world in 7 days

    Quote Originally Posted by sumuque View Post
    If you read Hadith, Muhammad said many things came to their existence out of no where on a particular day or so called period, zap...zap... zap.. interestingly Trees and vegetation came before Sun was placed in order.. ..
    I have a suggestion: how about you actually start showing evidence of the authenticity of the ahadith you cite or allude to instead of apparently just selectively using whichever ones happen to support your arguments?

  4. #34
    Veteran Member MF's Avatar
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    Default Re: God created the world in 7 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    What it is nonsensical? He is telling exactly like it means.
    He is saying that monday means something else to you than monday means to another entity that shares the same concept.

    We have 7 days in a week and this other entity has also, its the same concept but it doesnt mean the same.

    Perhaps idiot is a compliment for this other entity? I mean its the same concept but.. it doesnt mean it has the same meaning? if monday doesnt mean monday then idiot doesnt mean idiot. Then what means anything anymore.

    naming the days of creation with names that we know does not necessarily mean that the days are our days. This is because the names of days are concepts that can be applied to any other entity that shares the same concept.


    Quote Originally Posted by sumuque View Post
    Dear MF, they will not going to accept that these in this particular Hadith Muhammad meant literal days.
    Nobody has to accept it but lots of far fetched explanations other entities and sharing concept but different meanings.. ahem. Atleast bring up something rational.. but what can I expect.
    “The weak can never forgive. Forgiveness is the attribute of the strong.” ~ Mahatma Gandhi

  5. #35

    Default Re: God created the world in 7 days

    Quote Originally Posted by MF View Post
    He is saying that monday means something else to you than monday means to another entity that shares the same concept.

    We have 7 days in a week and this other entity has also, its the same concept but it doesnt mean the same.
    Whats nonsensical about that? If you are counting days on moon than Monday on moon is 27.32/29.5 Earth days long, since a day on moon equals to 27.32/29.5 Earth days.

    Second, there is no such thing as "monday" in Arabic, literally. It would translate as "day/epoch 3".



  6. #36
    Veteran Member sumuque's Avatar
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    Default Re: God created the world in 7 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    Whats nonsensical about that? If you are counting days on moon than Monday on moon is 27.32/29.5 Earth days long, since a day on moon equals to 27.32/29.5 Earth days.

    Second, there is no such thing as "monday" in Arabic, literally. It would translate as "day/epoch 3".
    I know there is no such thing as for example "Monday" in Arabic, however, the Hadith I quoted explicitly tells us the time of Adam's creations between Hours of Asr to almost Isha time in evening and that is my friend a clear proof that Muhammad took these so called Days or your epoch as normal 24 hour day.
    So, too, the creeds of man: the one prevails
    Until the other comes; and this one fails
    When that one triumphs; ay, the lonesome world
    Will always want the latest fairy tales.
    Al-Ma'arri

  7. #37
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    Default Re: God created the world in 7 days

    I'm waiting, sumuque....

  8. #38
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    Default Re: God created the world in 7 days

    Certain scholars argue that Abu Huraira quoted Bani Israeliyat tradition and were later taken as hadith from the Prophet (S). According to the same hadith books, he narrated many traditions and most likely people considered them strange, thus doubting his narrations. In Bukhari, it is reported:

    Volume 3, Book 39, Number 540:
    Narrated Abu Huraira:
    The people say that Abu Huraira narrates too many narrations. In fact Allah knows whether I say the truth or not. They also ask, "Why do the emigrants and the Ansar not narrate as he does?" In fact, my emigrant brethren were busy trading in the markets, and my Ansar brethren were busy with their properties. I was a poor man keeping the company of Allah's Apostle and was satisfied with what filled my stomach. So, I used to be present while they (i.e. the emigrants and the Ansar) were absent, and I used to remember while they forgot (the Hadith). One day the Prophet said, "Whoever spreads his sheet till I finish this statement of mine and then gathers it on his chest, will never forget anything of my statement." So, I spread my covering sheet which was the only garment I had, till the Prophet finished his statement and then I gathered it over my chest. By Him Who had sent him (i.e. Allah's Apostle) with the truth, since then I did not forget even a single word of that statement of his, until this day of mine. By Allah, but for two verses in Allah's Book, I would never have related any narration (from the Prophet). (These two verses are): "Verily! Those who conceal the clear signs and the guidance which we have sent down .....(up to) the Merciful.' (2.159-160)
    If Aisha (R) is said to have corrected Abu Huraira mutiple times, then what does it say for this hadith and the perfect memory of ABu Huraira (R)? In the above hadith, it states the Prophet (S) is said to have iniated the even of spreading the sheet, while another hadith in Bukhari states, which narrates the latter portion of the event alone, that ABu Huraira initiated the request:

    Volume 1, Book 3, Number 119:

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    I said to Allah's Apostle "I hear many narrations (Hadiths) from you but I forget them." Allah's Apostle said, "Spread your Rida' (garment)." I did accordingly and then he moved his hands as if filling them with something (and emptied them in my Rida') and then said, "Take and wrap this sheet over your body." I did it and after that I never forgot any thing.
    Bkuhari, in this volume records the latter statement in the first hadith as a separate hadith:

    Volume 1, Book 3, Number 118:
    People say that I have narrated many Hadiths (The Prophet's narrations). Had it not been for two verses in the Qur'an, I would not have narrated a single Hadith, and the verses are:

    "Verily those who conceal the clear sign and the guidance which We have sent down . . . (up to) Most Merciful." (2:159-160). And no doubt our Muhajir (emigrant) brothers used to be busy in the market with their business (bargains) and our Ansari brothers used to be busy with their property (agriculture). But I (Abu Huraira) used to stick to Allah's Apostle contented with what will fill my stomach and I used to attend that which they used not to attend and I used to memorize that which they used not to memorize.
    Further, Abu Huraira was not the only poor Companion and there were many from the Ahl-Suffa, but this hadith narrates it as he is the only one that was more present than the Ansar and Muhajireen. Where are the other narrators of hadith that were poor?

    According to Bukhari as well,

    Narrated Abu Huraira:

    There is none among the companions of the Prophet who has narrated more Hadiths than I except 'Abdallah bin Amr (bin Al-'As) who used to write them and I never did the same.
    ABdullah ibn AMr bin AL as was not a poor Companion and was from the Quraysh. His father was well-respected and was part of the delegation sent to the King of AByssinia. It also revelas his educational level, for he is said to have written the hadith of the Prophet (S) down. And ironically, he is not a much quoted narrator, if any in Bukhari, the same book that claims he narrated the most hadeeth.

    A minority opinion among the Hanifi fif not consider Abu Huraira's hadith acceptable, based upon the principle he was not a faqih, but it is a minority opinion, maybe even sole. The teacher of Abu Hanifa, IBrahim Nakhai is the main person who held this argument. While the integrity of Abu Huraira is beyond doubt, and most of the scholars justify his integrity in their defense of his works, the reality that people questioned his ability to relate hadith is an established fact.
    Last edited by ihsan; 24th November 2009 at 18:48.
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
    God does not give them courage." - Bulleh Shah

  9. #39

    Default Re: God created the world in 7 days

    Quote Originally Posted by sumuque View Post
    I know there is no such thing as for example "Monday" in Arabic, however, the Hadith I quoted explicitly tells us the time of Adam's creations between Hours of Asr to almost Isha time in evening and that is my friend a clear proof that Muhammad took these so called Days or your epoch as normal 24 hour day.
    Asr to Isha would mean end of a epoch. Like Hlatif said, Asr, means toward the end of the time. For example, if we were talking about a day on the moon, then it would be relative to the time on the day of the moon, and not 24hrs day of Earth.



  10. #40
    Veteran Member sumuque's Avatar
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    Default Re: God created the world in 7 days

    Quote Originally Posted by Chuck View Post
    Asr to Isha would mean end of a epoch. Like Hlatif said, Asr, means toward the end of the time. For example, if we were talking about a day on the moon, then it would be relative to the time on the day of the moon, and not 24hrs day of Earth.
    Okay.. fine.. can you please explain what these six or seven days or epoch creation really is ?
    So, too, the creeds of man: the one prevails
    Until the other comes; and this one fails
    When that one triumphs; ay, the lonesome world
    Will always want the latest fairy tales.
    Al-Ma'arri

  11. #41

    Default Re: God created the world in 7 days

    Quote Originally Posted by sumuque View Post
    Okay.. fine.. can you please explain what these six or seven days or epoch creation really is ?
    It is period or stages of time. Specific time line is not given in the Quran.



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    Default Re: God created the world in 7 days

    when asked in the hereafter "how long did you tarry on earth?" remember ... it was just today i had been there ...

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    Default Re: God created the world in 7 days

    Allahumma salli ala sayidina Muhahmad ...

  14. #44

    Default Re: God created the world in 7 days

    Quote Originally Posted by MF View Post
    If God created the world in seven days, doesnt that mean he is in the time flow aswell?
    Depends.

    If we assume god exists, she could be either within time, outside of time, able to travel in and out, or something completely different.

    Theists would probably argue that god is either outside of time or able to travel in and out of time. This is because they want to avoid the whole 'uncaused cause' argument that we atheists use to ask "If god created the universe, what created god?"

    If we assume god does not exist, and rather that the concept of god is just a complex mythological/spiritual meaning (thats a hint, theists), and not literally a bearded guy in the sky (another hint), then we must acknowledge that the god concept is just another man made idea (BIG hint). And thus, yes, the concept of god is subject to time flow, because all man made ideas are subject to time.
    "My country is the world, and my religion is to do good." - Thomas Paine

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    I am around... Sadiq_b's Avatar
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    Default Re: God created the world in 7 days

    [Offtopic] I spend my time on my Oracle Forums and my General Forums [/Offtopic]

    [Ontopic] To compare translations of the Quran and read Tafsir Jalalayn, refer Quran.com [/Ontopic]

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