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Thread: His Throne was on water

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    Default His Throne was on water

    Salam.
    I have come across this verse in the Quran (11,7). Can anyone enlighten me about the interpretation of 'His Throne was on water'.
    Why should it be on water?

    And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water, that He might try you, which of you is the best in deeds. (11,7)

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    Default Re: His Throne was on water

    Quote Originally Posted by nas007 View Post
    Salam.
    I have come across this verse in the Quran (11,7). Can anyone enlighten me about the interpretation of 'His Throne was on water'.
    Why should it be on water?

    And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water, that He might try you, which of you is the best in deeds. (11,7)
    Wa salaam,

    The words "And his throne was upon the water" is a parenthetical phrase. The throne here is used figuratively. It refers to the lordship of Allah in manifesting life out of water as is referenced throughout the Quran, such as in surah Baqarah, when Allah states that he sends down the rain giving life to the dead earth, causing animals to scatter abroad. The verse is arguing about the Day of Judgement and providing proof within the signs of the universe to attest to the event, with the first portion of the verse referring to the attribute of God Almighty as Creator, creating the heavens and the earth in six stages and the portion in question referring to the attribute of God as the Lord.

    The verse is pointing out the absurdity of the disbelievers in their claims, among them Muhammad (S) is a 'sorcerer'. How can one claim him as such when the very basis upon which the Quran is drawing it's arguments from is what is universal and natural, signs that the unbelievers themselves witness and acknowledge? Calling the Quranic proclamations things like poetry and sorcery are just the height of foolishness, considering the message, let alone style of the message.
    Last edited by ihsan; 9th June 2009 at 02:33.
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
    God does not give them courage." - Bulleh Shah

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    Veteran Member sumuque's Avatar
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    Default Re: His Throne was on water

    Quote Originally Posted by nas007 View Post
    Salam.
    I have come across this verse in the Quran (11,7). Can anyone enlighten me about the interpretation of 'His Throne was on water'.
    Why should it be on water?

    And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water, that He might try you, which of you is the best in deeds. (11,7)
    Allah throne over water is not metaphorical as Ihsan stated, remember some time Muslims need to say a verse is metaphorical because it does not make any sense in normal translation. In this particular case, Allah was mentioning a time in Past, as it says "His Throne WAS on Water", echoing Genesis's story of creation where Gods spirit was moving over water. Muhammad heard this story from Christians and He borrowed it and integrated in Quran like many other stories of Bible. Question is what happened now to this throne ? is this throne still on water ? which water and where ? you see this story does not make any sense, this would happened when you heard a second hand story from some one and try to polish it and try to present it as a new one. One can see other related example of borrwoings, in Old Testament there are verses in which Lord was sitting on his throne and all the host of heaven standing by Him on His right and on His left. [1 Kings 22:19-23] etc.

    see this example about throne story and compare the 1 Kings 22:19-23 with 69:17

    "And the angels will be on its sides, and eight will, that Day, bear the Throne of thy Lord above them."

    and there are other verse too, so you can make a good picture of Muhammad's mind what He was thinking.

    By the way in similar fashion Muhammad envision himself meeting god personaly and closely as stated in 53:1-10. You should look all these veres together to get a whole picture, a simple reading these verses may confuse you.
    Last edited by sumuque; 9th June 2009 at 10:58.
    So, too, the creeds of man: the one prevails
    Until the other comes; and this one fails
    When that one triumphs; ay, the lonesome world
    Will always want the latest fairy tales.
    Al-Ma'arri

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    Default Re: His Throne was on water

    Quote Originally Posted by sumuque View Post
    In this particular case, Allah was mentioning a time in Past, as it says "His Throne WAS on Water", echoing Genesis's story of creation where Gods spirit was moving over water.
    And this is another example of where you are wrong and have no idea what you are talking about. The verse is not in the past tense, but present tense:

    Wa kana arshuhoo alal maa
    It is similar to the contruction:

    Wa kana Allahu aziz un hakima
    Surely that fact that Allah has might and wisdom over everything isn't a statement in past tense. Shakir's translation actually reflects it correctly when it states:

    And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six periods-- and His dominion (extends) on the water-- that He might manifest to you, which of you is best in action, and if you say, surely you shall be raised up after death, those who disbelieve would certainly say: This is nothing but clear magic.
    Muhammad ALi's translation is even better in the sense that he reflects the continous process of creating life:

    And His throne of power is ever on the water
    The fact is, anybody familiar with the Quran Arabic, knows this is a parenthetical statement. Further, the fact that it is in present tense is a rhetorical feature, showing the continous lordship of Allah that is present in creation of Allah bringing forth life. It is relevant to the very context in that it shows that men are constantly being born into this world for the purpose of being tested, even after the creation of the heavens and earth were 'completed' as far as it concerns the purpose of the test in six days. It also demonstrates the ever visible phenomenon of raising the dead earth to life that continuously goes on through creation and men, including the unbelievers, are aware of it. This is easily corraborated all throughout the Quran, in verses such as the following:

    Most surely in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alternation of the night and the day, and the ships that run in the sea with that which profits men, and the water that Allah sends down from the cloud, then gives life with it to the earth after its death and spreads in it all (kinds of) animals, and the changing of the winds and the clouds made subservient between the heaven and the earth, there are signs for a people who understand.
    It has absolutely nothing to do with the 'Genesis' account, and the fact that it is in the context of the Day of Ressurrection is absolute proof against such an absurd proposition.
    Last edited by ihsan; 9th June 2009 at 23:54.
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
    God does not give them courage." - Bulleh Shah

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    Default Re: His Throne was on water

    "And the angels will be on its sides, and eight will, that Day, bear the Throne of thy Lord above them."

    and there are other verse too, so you can make a good picture of Muhammad's mind what He was thinking.
    What was he 'thinking' from verses like this?
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
    God does not give them courage." - Bulleh Shah

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    Default Re: His Throne was on water

    Quote Originally Posted by ihsan View Post
    And this is another example of where you are wrong and have no idea what you are talking about. The verse is not in the past tense, but present tense:
    Simple lack of knowledge in Quranic understanding from you Ihsan, everybody who can read the Arabic and understand it can confirm it says "His Throne WAS on Water" you can try hard as much as you can, but you cannot and will not be able to change it. I do not even have to press further as Muslim Translator from past to present has translated it in Past tense ! Now until and unless you show the world some sort of authority on this subject, I think world will look more to the other "Learned" people who know how to translate Quran and not twist when necessary.

    You brought up Muhammad Ali's translation in it, everybody knows the status of their creed, He was a Member of Ahmadiyya Movement, they have twisted the Quran as much as you can expect from them to give Mirza Ghulam Ahmad some sort of Quranic legitimacy and you seriously think by Bringing him in to this, will solve your problems ? I would say, Nice try, better luck next time.
    So, too, the creeds of man: the one prevails
    Until the other comes; and this one fails
    When that one triumphs; ay, the lonesome world
    Will always want the latest fairy tales.
    Al-Ma'arri

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    Default Re: His Throne was on water

    Quote Originally Posted by sumuque View Post
    Simple lack of knowledge in Quranic understanding from you Ihsan, everybody who can read the Arabic and understand it can confirm it says "His Throne WAS on Water" you can try hard as much as you can, but you cannot and will not be able to change it. I do not even have to press further as Muslim Translator from past to present has translated it in Past tense ! Now until and unless you show the world some sort of authority on this subject, I think world will look more to the other "Learned" people who know how to translate Quran and not twist when necessary.

    You brought up Muhammad Ali's translation in it, everybody knows the status of their creed, He was a Member of Ahmadiyya Movement, they have twisted the Quran as much as you can expect from them to give Mirza Ghulam Ahmad some sort of Quranic legitimacy and you seriously think by Bringing him in to this, will solve your problems ? I would say, Nice try, better luck next time.
    Let me repeat for you one more time:

    Surely that fact that Allah has power over everything isn't a statement in past tense.

    Shakir's translation actually reflects it correctly when it states:
    If you had paid attention, I first brought an example which demonstrates the usage of present tense.

    Wa kana Allah-u alaa kulli shay in qadeer
    Is Allah's power over everything in the past tense?

    If you had paid attention, I then brought an example, not from Muhammad Ali, but Shakir to demonstrate the usage of present tense.

    So tell me, where does the verse say "was" in the Arabic? And provide me proof of everybody that understands Arabic....

    And please tell me, what was the Prophet (S) thinking from verses like the above you quoted?
    Last edited by ihsan; 9th June 2009 at 23:52.
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
    God does not give them courage." - Bulleh Shah

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    Veteran Member sumuque's Avatar
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    Default Re: His Throne was on water

    Quote Originally Posted by ihsan View Post
    Let me repeat for you one more time:



    If you had paid attention, I first brought an example from the Quran which demonstrates the usage of present tense.



    Is Allah's power over everything in the past tense?

    If you had paid attention, I then brought an example, not from Muhammad Ali, but Shakir to demonstrate the usage of present tense.

    So tell me, where does the verse say "was" in the Arabic? And provide me proof of everybody that understands Arabic....

    And please tell me, what was the Prophet (S) thinking from verses like the above you quoted?
    You can not fool people with your false assumptions, you think you are quite good in it ! instead of making them further please explain why did you change the Past Tense with present tense ? You did not know who translated it in past tense ? let me refresh your memory a bit. [there are some good homeopathy medicines available which may help you in this regard]

    "11:7 Pickthall And He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was upon the water....

    Yusuf Ali He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days - and His Throne was over the waters...
    Hilali-Khan And He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth in six Days and His Throne was on the water,...
    Khalifa He is the One who created the heavens and the earth in six days - and His (earthly) domain was completely covered with water...
    Arberry And it is He who created the heavens and the earth in six days, and His Throne was upon the waters
    "

    I think this should be enough for you learn the Arabic finally. A person like you who tend to lecture people to focus on so called context, yet forget his own rules here, What was Allah saying in this verse ? He created Heavens and Earth in Six days !! This would happened long time ago and like Genesis, Muhammad envisioned Allah resting upon Water, rehashing old stories, what is the matter which you do not understand here ?

    What was Muhammad thinking ? what can a man think when He heard second hand stories and try to integrate into a new one ? use your imagination ? You need some material to impress people that you know something, you can not rip it directly so what else you would do ?
    So, too, the creeds of man: the one prevails
    Until the other comes; and this one fails
    When that one triumphs; ay, the lonesome world
    Will always want the latest fairy tales.
    Al-Ma'arri

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    Default Re: His Throne was on water

    1.

    Your avoiding the question, which is:

    So tell me, where does the verse say WAS in the Arabic?
    Show me where the word WAS is in the Arabic.

    2.

    Further, I did not ask you which translators put it in the past tense. I am quite aware of translators that put it in the past tense, which is why I stated in my original response to you:

    Shakir's translation actually reflects it correctly when it states:
    Notice the words 'correctly', which leads us to point 3:

    3.

    You made the erroneous claim that everybody that understands Arabic, puts it in the past tense. I gave you two translations which end the matter, yet you continue to give me translations that put it in the past tense, as if this resolves my demand for you, which is:

    And provide me proof of everybody that understands Arabic
    Whether or not Muhammad Ali is not a valid translator because he is a Qadiani is about as valid an argument that Rashad Khilafa is not a valid translator because he is a 19er or Arberry isn't valid because he isn't even Muslim...

    I think this should be enough for you learn the Arabic finally. A person like you who tend to lecture people to focus on so called context, yet forget his own rules here, What was Allah saying in this verse ? He created Heavens and Earth in Six days !! This would happened long time ago and like Genesis, Muhammad envisioned Allah resting upon Water, rehashing old stories, what is the matter which you do not understand here ?
    And yet, in surah Hadid, Allah states:

    He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days; then He ARSH ISTAWA.
    1.

    Your claiming that God was resting upon the water, inferring it from the above verse, yet Surah hadid is saying God 'ascended' the throne after He created the heavens and earth in six days. Further, water in Genesis was present before the creation of the heavens and earth, and yet, according to the Quran, the throne being above the waters is made after the statement of the creation of the heavens and the earth. This leads me to point 2:

    2.

    The Quran states very specifically that Allah created every living thing out of water, thus the idea that God is copying the Genesis account, when it is referring to the giving of man life to test him is tantamount to the greatest of absurdities. Genesis relates the account in a historical context, while the Quran has it's own purpose. The idea of a throne being literally above the waters has absolutely no bearing on the context of trying men to see who is best in deeds.

    Now answer the questions that you keep avoiding, which are:

    1. Where is the word WAS in the Arabic of the Quran? And once you do that, then we see if the "was" always denotes past tense.
    2. You claimed everybody that understands Arabic translates it in the past. Prove it...
    Last edited by ihsan; 9th June 2009 at 23:58.
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
    God does not give them courage." - Bulleh Shah

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    Veteran Member sumuque's Avatar
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    Default Re: His Throne was on water

    Quote Originally Posted by ihsan View Post
    1.

    Show me where the word WAS is in the Arabic.

    2.

    Further, I did not ask you which translators put it in the past tense. I am quite aware of translators that put it in the past tense, which is why I stated in my original response to you:
    Your own Muslim Brothers translated it in Past tense and its enough for you to ponder that Javed Ahmad Gahmidi may be wrong ! You may aware of this, but you are not paying attention to it, thinking the philosophies of Javed Ahmad Gahmidi and member of His Band Wagon may be wrong. You should tell me how to you decided that Shakir or Muhammad Ali was correct while translating this verse ? Was it your "own" decision ? Did somebody tell you about it ? You see you are not in a position to ask me quesion, where you, yourself made some lofty claims which require further clrifications.

    And yet, in surah Hadid, Allah states:

    Quote:
    He it is Who created the heavens and the earth in six Days; then He ARSH ISTAWA.
    1.

    Your claiming that God was resting upon the water, inferring it from the above verse, yet Surah hadid is saying God 'ascended' the throne after He created the heavens and earth in six days. Further, water in Genesis was present before the creation of the heavens and earth, and yet, according to the Quran, the throne being above the waters is made after the statement of the creation of the heavens and the earth. This leads me to point 2:

    2.

    The Quran states very specifically that Allah created every living thing out of water, thus the idea that God is copying the Genesis account, when it is referring to the giving of man life to test him is tantamount to the greatest of absurdities. Genesis relates the account in a historical context, while the Quran has it's own purpose. The idea of a throne being literally above the waters has absolutely no bearing on the context of trying men to see who is best in deeds.

    Now answer the questions that you keep avoiding, which are:

    1. Where is the word WAS in the Arabic of the Quran? And once you do that, then we see if the "was" always denotes past tense.
    2. You claimed everybody that understands Arabic translates it in the past. Prove it..
    He mounted his Throne after creating Heavens and Earths, in Hadid and in other verse He mounted His throne over water, do you see any problem here, first I see either its a case of Misquotation and author forgot that He made another statement or its a Contradiction, one can ask which of thes two statement is correct ? or by mounting the throne in Hadid He meant exactly as it was mentioned in other verse where He was surfing on water ? Both statements found in Quran and you have a serious problem in front of you, when you insist on one, then you have to reject the other as false !! Good luck.

    Muhammad was illeterate and He never studied Bible Himself, He heard these stores from others and he was ignorant about these stories, so what ever his mind could make of it, he put it in Quran, we can see the confusion and contradictory message in it and this throne story was clearly inspired by Bible. There other examples as well which I mentioned earlier. Quranic claim of life life started from water is repeation of Genesis account so what is important and new in it ? what else you would say other then this that Genesis's account is in Historical context ? yea right !
    So, too, the creeds of man: the one prevails
    Until the other comes; and this one fails
    When that one triumphs; ay, the lonesome world
    Will always want the latest fairy tales.
    Al-Ma'arri

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    Default Re: His Throne was on water

    Your own Muslim Brothers translated it in Past tense and its enough for you to ponder that Javed Ahmad Gahmidi may be wrong ! You may aware of this, but you are not paying attention to it, thinking the philosophies of Javed Ahmad Gahmidi and member of His Band Wagon may be wrong. You should tell me how to you decided that Shakir or Muhammad Ali was correct while translating this verse ? Was it your "own" decision ? Did somebody tell you about it ? You see you are not in a position to ask me quesion, where you, yourself made some lofty claims which require further clrifications.
    So basically, you have no idea what your talking about.

    He mounted his Throne after creating Heavens and Earths, in Hadid and in other verse He mounted His throne over water, do you see any problem here, first I see either its a case of Misquotation and author forgot that He made another statement or its a Contradiction, one can ask which of thes two statement is correct ? or by mounting the throne in Hadid He meant exactly as it was mentioned in other verse where He was surfing on water ? Both statements found in Quran and you have a serious problem in front of you, when you insist on one, then you have to reject the other as false !! Good luck.
    Where does it say he mounted his throne over the water?


    Muhammad was illeterate and He never studied Bible Himself, He heard these stores from others and he was ignorant about these stories, so what ever his mind could make of it, he put it in Quran, we can see the confusion and contradictory message in it and this throne story was clearly inspired by Bible. There other examples as well which I mentioned earlier. Quranic claim of life life started from water is repeation of Genesis account so what is important and new in it ? what else you would say other then this that Genesis's account is in Historical context ? yea right !
    Where does Genesis say life originated out of water? Where does the Bible mention the throne above the water? Where does the Quran say the water preceded the creation of the heavens and earth? Where does the Quran say the spirit was hovering above the waters?

    These are simple questions...
    Last edited by ihsan; 12th June 2009 at 02:02.
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
    God does not give them courage." - Bulleh Shah

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