How do I deal with Salafis?

[Sultan1923]

Salam Alaikum wa rahmatullahi wa barakatu

This is my first thread here in this forum brothers and sisters, and I just wanted to bring this issue out since I've been reading many open-minded, factual based things from the Muslim community here.

To elaborate on the title question, I've been encountering a lot of Muslims on Youtube and Stickam lately and I befriended a lot of them, until I realized what they really were and how they thought.

I find myself increasingly surrounded by people who claim that Shia and Sufis are Kaffirs that should be fought the same as Zionists and Westerners and that democracy (and any Islamic movement that promotes it) is haram or deviant at least. They toss out terms such as "Bidah" and "Haram" out there like they're disposable candy wrappers. I'm quite baffled because these Muslims that I encounter are very emotional, and if anything is stated contrary to their beliefs, I run the risk of getting declared a Kaffir by them. It's an extremely unhealthy environment for debate. And they use many verses in Quran and Hadith to justify their intolerant ideology.

No disrespect to anyone who claims to emulate the Salaf manhaj on here, because I am a Muslim and I respect the Salaf with all my heart. But these people I've encountered (and many others who are self proclaimed Salafis) happen to be very extreme and backwards to say the least and I'd like to hear input from other Muslims here regarding this matter.

Shukran in advance and Ma Salama

[vinod]

Treat them as a test of your patience and an opportunity to grow in character by interacting with them without losing your cool. Most of them are well intentioned people seeking moral certainty who will grow out of their zeal as they mature in 10-15 years time. Give them their space to grow.

[alan]

I think,they can dangerous people to be around,you will just get a headache or get influenced by them,to the detriment of your rounded Islamic faith.If you can tolerate them and use reason,you may help them,but the situation with these people reflects a very dependant cult culture-hence the danger.

[lumumba_s]

I agree with Vinod's advice, with the addition that you not attempt to debate with them, which will inevitably turn into an argument. But if they generally are that takfir inclined, I would avoid them or at least religious conversations with them, for your own peace of mind. The best way to "debate" them would be to give them material that they can digest on their own, but people as extreme and reactionary as you describe, will probably not bother to listen to or read anything not already on their approved speakers/authors list. Just leave them be and avoid returning the "favor".

[alan]

Iam surprised Lamumba didnt agree with my advice,however.They are all the more dangerous,I think,when they conclude their convictions in a political manner.

[lumumba_s]

From my experience, someone who is not a scholar cannot "help them". Hence my advice to avoid religious conversations which will lead to arguments and ill-feelings.

[alan]

From my experience, someone who is not a scholar cannot "help them". Hence my advice to avoid religious conversations which will lead to arguments and ill-feelings.

I find that a said statement of your way of thinking,Lamumba.I said to use reason and if you are stromg enough,I do find it sad that you seem to imply that you are not qualified to comment unless you are a "scholar",this stifles all debate,gives power to theself made elite-in some cases,which is precisely the tak that the Salafis take.I thought it was the accusation that only the Christians and Jews followed what their Priests and Rabbi,s told them,we of course follow our scholars,and they define who they are,not us,interfering-in some cases,with our direct line to Allah,swt.

[vinod]

I think there is a point to Lumumba's statement. Salafism did not start as something that merely differed in some secondary legal issues. It started as something that differed with the existing school of thoughts in the fundamental approach to deduction of legal rules. It also had a fundamentally different approach to the established approaches to interpretation in theology. These topics are not something that I would generally expect a non-scholar to be qualified in. It does take some institutionalized study and scholarship to understand those topics.

[alan]

I understand the point Lamumba is making and you cant I suppose argue that,not to be equipped in such a way is going to make things easier,but I never suggested anything to the contrary,this whole theology stuff is bunkum to me as they are so buisy pointing and less doing,Islam should not be difficult,Islam is not difficult.

[lumumba_s]

As Vinod said, I did not mean to imply that if you are not a scholar, you are too stupid to say anything. Rather, unless you understand the thought process of both points of view and are able to articulate it in a manner that exposes to them the reality of their viewpoint, you are just wasting your time.

I had a Salafi roommate for about a year. In all of our interactions prior to him being my roommate, there was one occasion where I got him to admit something on his own tongue by forcing him to reason out loud. The end result? He said I tricked him and 5 years later we had a repeat of the same argument. When he moved in with me 5 years later, he refused to pray behind me. When I got him to discuss actual fiqh qawa`id (rules like not performing a mandub doesn't invalidate the prayer) he refused to reason so simply as we had before, retreated, got a scholar on the phone and asked him leading questions which completely dodged the line of reasoning we were headed down which he knew he could not respond to. Once he got his tailor-made answer, his only reply after that was, "You heard what the shaykh said. He is one of the people of knowledge."

Around the same time, I popped in a cd of one of my teachers who was explaining an usul difference between the two earlier imams and the two later ones that the typical urban Salafi is never really taught and after 9 minutes of me not responding to his wayward comments, he was infuriated and had no recourse but to seek a "fatwa" on this individual. Thereafter, he had no other response to anything he heard my teacher say but to literally curse any project he heard that he did not agree with. Why was my teacher able to do on a cd in 9 minutes what I had only been able to accomplish once in 8 years for only a brief moment? He has been the target of Salafi propaganda since he began studying and knows exactly what they respond to and how to articulate the argument in a way that is digestable to them.

My point? Salafis may and are frequently very sincere people, but Salafism has at its heart a sectarian arrogance and after someone has been with that mentality for a while, it is almost impossible to break them free from it. Imam al-Ghazali himself said in "My Dear Beloved Son" that there is no point bothering to talk to someone who has been cooked in a sect, instead, you can only catch them at the beginning when their membership is due to genuine misunderstanding or lack of information and not a party affiliation. Salafis very early on are taught not limit the scholars, authors and speakers that they take from and once they are at that point, unless you are able to articulate with the precision that the people they read/listen to are, you cannot "help" them.

[alan]

I couldnt agree more Lamumba,that is precisely what I was talking about in relation to their cultic characteristics,brainwashed.

[Sultan1923]

As Vinod said, I did not mean to imply that if you are not a scholar, you are too stupid to say anything. Rather, unless you understand the thought process of both points of view and are able to articulate it in a manner that exposes to them the reality of their viewpoint, you are just wasting your time.

I had a Salafi roommate for about a year. In all of our interactions prior to him being my roommate, there was one occasion where I got him to admit something on his own tongue by forcing him to reason out loud. The end result? He said I tricked him and 5 years later we had a repeat of the same argument. When he moved in with me 5 years later, he refused to pray behind me. When I got him to discuss actual fiqh qawa`id (rules like not performing a mandub doesn't invalidate the prayer) he refused to reason so simply as we had before, retreated, got a scholar on the phone and asked him leading questions which completely dodged the line of reasoning we were headed down which he knew he could not respond to. Once he got his tailor-made answer, his only reply after that was, "You heard what the shaykh said. He is one of the people of knowledge."

Around the same time, I popped in a cd of one of my teachers who was explaining an usul difference between the two earlier imams and the two later ones that the typical urban Salafi is never really taught and after 9 minutes of me not responding to his wayward comments, he was infuriated and had no recourse but to seek a "fatwa" on this individual. Thereafter, he had no other response to anything he heard my teacher say but to literally curse any project he heard that he did not agree with. Why was my teacher able to do on a cd in 9 minutes what I had only been able to accomplish once in 8 years for only a brief moment? He has been the target of Salafi propaganda since he began studying and knows exactly what they respond to and how to articulate the argument in a way that is digestable to them.

My point? Salafis may and are frequently very sincere people, but Salafism has at its heart a sectarian arrogance and after someone has been with that mentality for a while, it is almost impossible to break them free from it. Imam al-Ghazali himself said in "My Dear Beloved Son" that there is no point bothering to talk to someone who has been cooked in a sect, instead, you can only catch them at the beginning when their membership is due to genuine misunderstanding or lack of information and not a party affiliation. Salafis very early on are taught not limit the scholars, authors and speakers that they take from and once they are at that point, unless you are able to articulate with the precision that the people they read/listen to are, you cannot "help" them.

I understand what you meant lumumba, and I agree with you for the most part. The guys I am speaking of run to "the Scholars" to reaffirm their rhetoric, and it is a cult-like ritual. I am informed on issues, but I cannot grab verses and juridical rulings as quick as they can.

And on politics, they are particularly scary for their attitudes towards Taliban, terrorism, and sectarian issues.

I do avoid bringin up issues I know will rile them up when I'm in stickam chat rooms, but the thing is, there are other, more moderate Muslims in there too like me. Although they're a vocal minority there, I don't leave the chat rooms because they're there, and I don't want them to be overwhelmed by hardliners and their rhetoric.

Thanks for your advice thus far, though

[Sultan1923]

Treat them as a test of your patience and an opportunity to grow in character by interacting with them without losing your cool. Most of them are well intentioned people seeking moral certainty who will grow out of their zeal as they mature in 10-15 years time. Give them their space to grow.

I understand akhi, but I am young too (17 actually) and I've never seen such zeal before. Perhaps it may be a by-product of their surroundings. Anyways thank you for your advice. I am not confrontational, and I prefer not to be when I'm around Muslims. But these guys have really helped to shape my views on Salafi doctrine (although I hav seen many reasonable Salafis too). It's hard to sit idle while they rant about their opinions (which they always say is God's word)

Salam

[vinod]

I totally get you. At 17, it is difficult to not say anything when someone speaks something that is as uncooked as salafism. Heck, I struggle with that even at my age, which is atleast 10 more years older to you.
It takes a lot of practice to choose to get into those conversations where you think you will personally gain some knowledge. I still struggle with that.

[Sultan1923]

Iam surprised Lamumba didnt agree with my advice,however.They are all the more dangerous,I think,when they conclude their convictions in a political manner.

I agree akhi. In fact, it's on politics where I've come into conflict with them the most. And for the most part, it's nothing but a headache. I can elaborate on the experience further if you wish.