Ayaan Hirsi Ali - The Child

[hasan]

i wonder in order to get a verdict of a crime of passion that occurs at a later date after a percieved incident of infedility or immoral conduct is to prove drunkedness from a breif sojourn in a bar..

[junaid]

Even if some try to attribute Islam with honor killings it would be out of ignorance that they do so.

That's important to note.

Mostly it's culture, another example: FGM.

Even someone like Ayan Hirsi Ali,who I have come to respect from the 254 pages I have read so far states in the specific context of her sister's delusions:

p:254

Haweya was not made mentally ill by Islam. Her delusions were religious, but it would be dishonest to say they were Islam's fault.

*********

So far from whatever I have read she does not malign Islam at all in the book. But I have not read the remaining 3 - 4 chapters yet.

[Ramsey]

This woman is a known liar, this is an established fact.

Can you elaborate on this please.

Besides this she shows (in my observation) a lack of emotional development

and a tenuous grasp on logic at best.

and these two as well.

I'm still on vacation, but I'll give it a shot.

The comment on her emotional development is partially something I have observed analysing what she says in TV's newspapers etc. It is also based on a class I had in college in which she was used as an example of someone that was emotionally underdeveloped. I don't have my books with me (and really don't want to spend much time on a woman I have no respect for) so I'm afraid I can't name specific examples of her emotional immaturity.

The comment on her grasp on logic was based on a book of hers she wrote a few years ago. To call the book anti-Islamic would be an understatement. I decided to borrow the book and decided to read some of her arguments. I found them ripe with logical fallacies (an interest of mine at the time), historical inaccuracies and many many errors. After finding five out of five arguments to be faulty at best I decided to stop wasting my time with it.

But in any case let's speed forward to the more interesting part, why is she a liar. Well, I have guests to entertain so let me keep this short.

1) There is an article somewhere which remarks on how her story of going to Saudi Arabia is dubious, since it does not fit in with the time line.

Ahh here it is.

2) She lied on her application for asylum. She lied about her name, country of origin, birthdate etc. She lied and lied well. In an earlier post you said that if she lied (I hope I have shown that she did lie, there is no if about it) we should look at her circumstances. That's part of the problem, I believe that she's lied about these circumstances.

3) There was an episode of "Zambla" (a Dutch show, the episode was in 2005 I believe) which actually went to Somalia and such and to find out what other things she lied about. Did you know that she actually lived in (relative) luxury in Somalia? did she mention this in her book? Apparently they also questioned whether her circumcision took place at home or in a hospital (I don't know what their final conclusions were though)

4) And last but not least (since I really must entertain my guests) I find her little story with the ma'alim rather odd.

From the age of six or seven, Ayaan Hirsi's life became that of an exile, her family moving from Saudi Arabia to Ethiopia and then, for 10 years, to Kenya. Cod-psychoanalysis might find other patterns of trauma in this journey, such as the time she received a beating from an imam for refusing to recite the Qur'an. But the problem for such an interpretation of Hirsi Ali is that a proper definition of trauma requires either blocking or repetition of memory, and the only people doing that have been her interviewers. Hirsi Ali corrects this oft-reported story, and turns it inside out. "He wasn't an imam," she says, "he was a mallim, a teacher, and I was a difficult girl. He caught me by the braids in my hair and began tossing my head against a wall, and then I heard a 'crack,' and he must have heard it as well, because he immediately stopped, gave me a warning, and went away. He was probably the one who was traumatised, because after that nobody wanted him back.

This is something I found on the internet. According to her earlier statement he immediately stopped, gave her a warning and went away. No mention of some other man and no mention of fainting and waking up on Sunday (which I assume was at least a day later).

Is there anything in her book that explains this discrepancy?

I am not demonizing her, I am certainly not pronouncing fatwa's to have her killed. If anything I think she should go into therapy.

But I am however calling her a liar.

And now back to my guests.

[junaid]

The comment on her emotional development is partially something I have observed analysing what she says in TV's newspapers etc. It is also based on a class I had in college in which she was used as an example of someone that was emotionally underdeveloped.

I have seen her on youtube clips. She seems soft spoken and dispassionate, exuding the impression of someone who has a great control on emotions.

The comment on her grasp on logic was based on a book of hers she wrote a few years ago.

I have read 'Infidel' by now. I haven't read 'The Caged Virgin' as yet. She uses strong jargon on the reformation of Islam, which I understand would not sit well with believers. My impression is that she takes the Quranic verses literally.

There is an article somewhere which remarks on how her story of going to Saudi Arabia is dubious, since it does not fit in with the time line.

I believe her father had booked the tickets and this information would be public. I find it hard to believe that Hirsi Magan (her father and family) would not have corrected this.

She lied on her application for asylum. She lied about her name, country of origin, birthdate etc.

She changed her name from Ayan Hirsi Magan to Ayan Hirsi Ali. Ali is Magan's father. She mentions this in her book.

She went from Nairobi rather than Somalia (as claimed in her asylum application) to Holland via Germany. She mentions this in her book.

Birth-date too I think she mentions (I don't recall).

The asylum personnel worker (Sylvia) knew about this and told her to keep the information to herself. She had openly stated her details way before before she joined Parliament. She used the email: magan@......... and even Rita Verdonk (??) the MP knew about it way before she started Ayan's impeachment (??).

There was an episode of "Zambla" (a Dutch show, the episode was in 2005 I believe) which actually went to Somalia and such and to find out what other things she lied about. Did you know that she actually lived in (relative) luxury in Somalia? did she mention this in her book?

Zambla is very much in her book and the caustic tone the interviewer took with her. Her family situation and living conditions are clearly mentioned in her book.

Apparently they also questioned whether her circumcision took place at home or in a hospital (I don't know what their final conclusions were though)

Both girls Haweya and herself were sewn up after the excision in presence of their grandmother - a tribal nomad woman.

This is something I found on the internet. According to her earlier statement he immediately stopped, gave her a warning and went away. No mention of some other man and no mention of fainting and waking up on Sunday (which I assume was at least a day later).
Is there anything in her book that explains this discrepancy?

I am not demonizing her, I am certainly not pronouncing fatwa's to have her killed.

Many want to kill her. The book is clear on the concerns of the Dutch security personnel.

But I am however calling her a liar.

To me Mahad, her unemployed brother, who lives on his father's money appears as the liar.

[junaid]

There is an article somewhere which remarks on how her story of going to Saudi Arabia is dubious, since it does not fit in with the time line.

Ahh here it is.

The posters posted, and given such obscene and indecent remarks which are plenty on the net, I wouldn't give a second thought to such posters.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg00477.html

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg00486.html

[Ramsey]

The posters posted, and given such obscene and indecent remarks which are plenty on the net, I wouldn't give a second thought to such posters.

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg00477.html

http://newsgroups.derkeiler.com/Arch.../msg00486.html

So you're dismissing an article because of the opinion of the people who posted the article? Even though a moments glance should show that the poster did not actually write said article but probably copy pasted it from somewhere else?

In any case let's skip most of the points for a moment. I haven't seen Zembla yet (nor do I really wish to) and it would be pointless for you to see it since it's in Dutch. And actually I really want to know the following.

Please try and explain the discrepancy in her story. In an earlier interview she did not faint, she did not wake up a day or days later on. There is no mention of another man, no lashes or anything. In her book she says otherwise.

Here is the link I got it from. So what is it? Is there a reason for the discrepancy? Or is she a liar (yes, I believe that lying about such a thing in a book makes you a liar)?

[junaid]

So you're dismissing an article because of the opinion of the people who posted the article? Even though a moments glance should show that the poster did not actually write said article but probably copy pasted it from somewhere else? )

I usually don't trust such posters.

I haven't seen Zembla yet (nor do I really wish to) and it would be pointless for you to see it since it's in Dutch.

http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=Z82C10...eature=related

Zembla (4 part) with English subtitles.

Please try and explain the discrepancy in her story. In an earlier interview she did not faint, she did not wake up a day or days later on. There is no mention of another man, no lashes or anything. In her book she says otherwise....Is there a reason for the discrepancy?

From that link, I'll reproduce:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/film/2005/...on.immigration

........a proper definition of trauma requires either blocking or repetition of memory, and THE ONLY PEOPLE DOING THAT HAVE BEEN HER INTERVIEWERS.

...... she says, "he was a mallim, a teacher, and I was a difficult girl. He caught me by the braids in my hair and began tossing my head against a wall, and then I heard a 'crack,' and he must have heard it as well, because he immediately stopped, gave me a warning, and went away.

He was probably the one who was traumatised, because after that NOBODY WANTED HIM BACK."

***************

Now I had posted earlier:

Ayaan Hirsi Ali (2008) 'Infidel', Chapter 5, p. 75 - 77

The ma'alim was back, with another man. .....

He grabbed my braided hair and pulled my hair back, and then he shoved it against the wall. I distinctly heard a cracking noise.....

The next thing I knew it was Sunday morning.....

An Italian doctor ordered X-rays. My skull was fractured.......

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You pointed out that in the guardian link she does not mention the other man and nor the fainting.

In the book she mentions the other man and the fainting.

She neither accepts nor rejects the other man's presence and her fainting in the guardian link.

One can make a claim of suppressing/ignoring details of the story (nose bleed, fracture, etc) but I'm not sure one can make a claim of falsehood.

I don't have the book here with me, I will bring with me tomorrow for a careful read of the situation.

[alan]

Just started reading this account,quarter through.Seems typical if lazy ignorant minded people and I hope this form of religion is far away from true Islam - though iam wondering if Islam,the religion is that close to Islam at times.

[Ron]

I'm not sure what you mean by "...Islam, the religion is that close to Islam at times," but her stories stem from pretty much a Somali cultural experience. She seems to heap a lot on Islam without looking at the very core of the problem.

[alan]

I'm not sure what you mean by "...Islam, the religion is that close to Islam at times," but her stories stem from pretty much a Somali cultural experience. She seems to heap a lot on Islam without looking at the very core of the problem.

Your quite right there,but I suspect there could be similar stories to be told by women in Saudi,Pakistan,Afghan,etc.When does Islam stop being identified with culture,this pure Islam is like the kingdom of heavan,yet to come,or the Messiah who has yet to come,or the grass is greener on the other side.Where is this "nice" Islam that is not going to result in this kind of disilusion and resentment?

[Ron]

Salam Alan,

but I suspect there could be similar stories to be told by women in Saudi,Pakistan,Afghan,etc.

I very much understand your concern and it is quite a good point that you've brought up. In fact, I think much that is blamed on Islam stems from the very similarities within those three (and more) that you mentioned. Poverty, illiteracy, societal norms, cultural leanings etc... is why you are right that similar stories can be told by others. Generally speaking, Islam is heaviest in the most poor and illiterate parts of the world. It wasn't always like that but it seems now it is. Yes, this includes places like Saudi where the rich are super rich but the poor are in dire straits. Add to that that in many countries Muslims are minorities and are struggling to survive and when they hear a call to fight they feel that that's all they have left. This by no means is an excuse but to illustrate why it seems to some that Muslims and Islam are not doing well.

When does Islam stop being identified with culture,this pure Islam is like the kingdom of heavan,yet to come,or the Messiah who has yet to come,or the grass is greener on the other side.

Another good point. In fact, it is one of the hindrances of the Muslim community worldwide. I've heard all sorts of stories of Indian Muslims who have statues in their mosques, Muslims who practice the caste system, etc... However, the most difficult to spot and most opaquely veiled are those of the Arabs. The reason I say this is because non-Arab Muslims tend to take what is Arab and apply it to faith. In fact, even Arabs can't distinguish between cultural aspects and religious ones. So now you have a potluck of cultural accretions that become associated with the religion.

Where is this "nice" Islam that is not going to result in this kind of disilusion and resentment?

It is in you. Insha'Allah in me and others. It is reading the Book and understanding it and following the Sunnah and behaving as a good human being.

Regards

[Ron]

I just read this quote from MF in another post:

My parents noticed changes in me and decided it was time to take measures. Suddenly, at the age of 27, I was working as a lawyer in Holland, my parents engaged me to be married to a Pakistani Muslim from my parent’s birth region. I had never met him, but my parents had. I didn't know his last name. But I was engaged without being asked for my consent, initially even without being informed. My father, who had arranged this, told me this engagement was as permanent as a marriage in the Pakistani Punjabi tradition he claimed I belonged to.

Here is another example of cultural playing its part but religion being blamed. If one actually studies Islam they will see that such marriages are against the rules of Islam, but people always find a way.

[alan]

I agree Ron,but,but,but, the "true" Islam is in the minority,who is promoting it?Iam sure they get trampled on by all the other "Islams",not just the Bin Ladens.

[DocW]

I am working in rural Wales and speaking to my work colleagues I was astonished to know that in rural Wales husband is very much like the Pakistani husband of a village. Wife beating is rife and rights of women are trampled right left and centre. The two most astonishing experiences were

Firstly , a lady who had lost her husband suddenly aged 65. When initially seen seemed all over the place and initial thoughts were that she was shocked and depressed. I saw her again on a monthly basis and after three months she appeared better. She then opened up and said. It was not the death of her husband that was the issue but the fact that she had married him when she was 17-18 years old and since then he had made every decision in their house. He opened the mail and she had never gone out of the house without him. She had found it very difficult to have the independence to be able to make decisions herself and was finding it difficult to get used to it.

Secondly, in certain families rape by husband was accepted part of life and never mentioned outside the house. Husbands came drunk home and physically beat their wives and raped them. Not once any police involvement takes place.

[alan]

But the "muslim" instances are related to a thread of Islamic belief that authorises it,in the muslim countries,I would suspect that all sorts of abuse is not condemned,passively being endorsed by the Islamic bodies.In Hirsi Ali,s case,I think her conclusions about Islam are wrong,but clearly understandable and she makes valid points.