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Hira full of trash...
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  1. #1

    Default Hira full of trash...

    Sad, very sad...

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  2. #2
    Veteran Member vinod's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hira full of trash...

    In my view, nothing is sadder than the apostasy law.
    1.4 billion people live under the poverty line - 1.25 USD per day. 20000 Africans die needlessly everyday due to AIDS, malaria and TB. 1.02 billion people do not have enough to eat. 3/4s of this are rural poor farmers who will also bear the brunt of global warming.

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    Default Re: Hira full of trash...

    As far as my understanding goes, Saudis rarely visit these sites, meaning they are not the one's doing the littering. The people that do the littering include the non-Wahaabis. Further, Mecca and Medina is littered by common Muslims from all over the world.

    Is it really a Wahhabi problem?
    "Those who deny the strength of truth,
    God does not give them courage." - Bulleh Shah

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    Veteran Member Al-Boriqi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hira full of trash...

    im surprised of your balanced approach. That is not a usual
    Islamic Thought In the Modern Era of the Islamic Awakening: Dissemination of Islamic research and studies
    al-Mustaqeem Publications
    “The bonds of Islam will be broken one by one. Every time a bond is undone, the people will cling to the bond that follows. The first of these bonds is rulership (khilaafa) and the last is the prayer (salah).” Reported by Ahmad and Tabarani. Al-Hakim stated that the chain is authentic.

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    Default Re: Hira full of trash...

    im surprised of your balanced approach. That is not a usual
    It's only because you want to see what you like. What you see here is him, it is no different than when he has a discussion with you. I know you won't agree but being on the outside you can see a little better.

    As for the pictures, what does one say...people get mad at me for criticizing Muslims but I'll let their actions speak for themselves. The place of revelation has been turned into a dump site...while the Apostacy Laws are sad it stems from minds who turn a place such as this to what we see. It's all connected.

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    Veteran Member lumumba_s's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hira full of trash...

    Oh come on, that is a cheap shot.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Veteran Member vinod's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hira full of trash...

    When a life can be taken away for holding a belief, I don't see why anyone should have a problem littering a cave. When life itself has so little sanctity why even talk about caves.
    1.4 billion people live under the poverty line - 1.25 USD per day. 20000 Africans die needlessly everyday due to AIDS, malaria and TB. 1.02 billion people do not have enough to eat. 3/4s of this are rural poor farmers who will also bear the brunt of global warming.

  8. #8
    Veteran Member lumumba_s's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hira full of trash...

    No offense, but I referring to Ron's comment, not yours. I expected as much from you.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: Hira full of trash...

    Salam Lumumba,

    How are my comments a cheap shot? If situation in Mount Hira is not an example of something we should admonish what is? If I sat here and told you, which you are quite aware of, of the things that Muslims I don't know what would happen. Whoever reads may criticize me and accuse me of things or someone may dislike Muslims or someone may use my words to bolster their claims about us or...the point is what I said I said because it is true. Do you think I like the situation or that Muslims behave this way? What bothers me the most is that they tend to hide behind Islam for it. How can I not complain or be sad about it?

    Regards

  10. #10
    Veteran Member lumumba_s's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hira full of trash...

    As salamu `alaykum,

    Muslims deserved to be criticized, what I was referring to as a cheat shot is this:
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    The place of revelation has been turned into a dump site...while the Apostacy Laws are sad it stems from minds who turn a place such as this to what we see. It's all connected.
    So the mentality of Imam Malik, who did not allow people to teach hadith standing, weap so profusely upon thinking of the Messenger that his students would get up a leave heart brokened at seeing his state, and who forbade the caliph to get rid of the wood of the original mimbar, because he upheld the outward purport of a hadith and caliphal sunna whose literal interpretation you disagree with, results in the place of revelation becoming a litering ground? We should all admonish the situation, but piggy backing off of Vinod's single-issue stances is not criticism. Its emotional pandering. I uphold what the `ulama have upheld, and I wouldn't litter in my job's parking lot. That my dear sir, was a cheap shot.

    Maybe the situation stems from a general irreligious-ness amongst the masses of people, coupled with a state enforced mentality that such places are of no importance. Claiming it has anything to do with apostasy laws as an academic disagreement is preposterous.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 25th July 2008 at 05:46.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: Hira full of trash...

    I beleive Ron was refering more to the Wahabi Mindset, I dont beleive Ron has an issue when there is a qualified methodology behind a jurisprudence.

  12. #12

    Default Re: Hira full of trash...

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    As salamu `alaykum,

    Muslims deserved to be criticized, what I was referring to as a cheat shot is this:So the mentality of Imam Malik, who did not allow people to teach hadith standing, weap so profusely upon thinking of the Messenger that his students would get up a leave heart brokened at seeing his state, and who forbade the caliph to get rid of the wood of the original mimbar, because he upheld the outward purport of a hadith and caliphal sunna whose literal interpretation you disagree with, results in the place of revelation becoming a litering ground? We should all admonish the situation, but piggy backing off of Vinod's single-issue stances is not criticism. Its emotional pandering. I uphold what the `ulama have upheld, and I wouldn't litter in my job's parking lot. That my dear sir, was a cheap shot.

    Maybe the situation stems from a general irreligious-ness amongst the masses of people, coupled with a state enforced mentality that such places are of no importance. Claiming it has anything to do with apostasy laws as an academic disagreement is preposterous.
    Shalom,

    I don't know if you agree with me, but I would rather call it "apostasy precedents" than "apostasy laws"; because jurists differ on the conditions that must be brought before the court of law to prove apostasy.

    And, I think there was a pact signed by numerous contemporary scholars that disputed the manner in which the accusation of apostasy is carried out in "certain" countries. I can't recall what it is, though.

    As an aside, I think Ron has at least a small point in saying that there is a connection between the deliberate wahhabi neglect of islamic waypoints and the modern obsession with so-called apostasy. Both are modern, both stem from absolutism and even more damagingly, exclusivism.

    But this is only my humble opinion...I may be wrong.

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  13. #13
    Veteran Member Al-Boriqi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hira full of trash...

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    As salamu `alaykum,

    Muslims deserved to be criticized, what I was referring to as a cheat shot is this:So the mentality of Imam Malik, who did not allow people to teach hadith standing, weap so profusely upon thinking of the Messenger that his students would get up a leave heart brokened at seeing his state, and who forbade the caliph to get rid of the wood of the original mimbar, because he upheld the outward purport of a hadith and caliphal sunna whose literal interpretation you disagree with, results in the place of revelation becoming a litering ground? We should all admonish the situation, but piggy backing off of Vinod's single-issue stances is not criticism. Its emotional pandering. I uphold what the `ulama have upheld, and I wouldn't litter in my job's parking lot. That my dear sir, was a cheap shot.

    Maybe the situation stems from a general irreligious-ness amongst the masses of people, coupled with a state enforced mentality that such places are of no importance. Claiming it has anything to do with apostasy laws as an academic disagreement is preposterous.
    it was more than cheap.

    it was like taking the issue of the arabs building tall building, and then linking it to the emotional oppoisition to women covering.

    u=your words are deeply appreciated.
    Islamic Thought In the Modern Era of the Islamic Awakening: Dissemination of Islamic research and studies
    al-Mustaqeem Publications
    “The bonds of Islam will be broken one by one. Every time a bond is undone, the people will cling to the bond that follows. The first of these bonds is rulership (khilaafa) and the last is the prayer (salah).” Reported by Ahmad and Tabarani. Al-Hakim stated that the chain is authentic.

  14. #14
    Veteran Member Al-Boriqi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Hira full of trash...

    Quote Originally Posted by hasan View Post
    I beleive Ron was refering more to the Wahabi Mindset, I dont beleive Ron has an issue when there is a qualified methodology behind a jurisprudence.
    wring.

    Ron is not referring to a "wahhabi mindset.

    he is referring to ALL jurisprudential matters that are NOT preserved in the light of heresy of modernism.
    Islamic Thought In the Modern Era of the Islamic Awakening: Dissemination of Islamic research and studies
    al-Mustaqeem Publications
    “The bonds of Islam will be broken one by one. Every time a bond is undone, the people will cling to the bond that follows. The first of these bonds is rulership (khilaafa) and the last is the prayer (salah).” Reported by Ahmad and Tabarani. Al-Hakim stated that the chain is authentic.

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    Default Re: Hira full of trash...

    Salam Lumumba,
    So the mentality of Imam Malik, who did not allow people to teach hadith standing, weap so profusely upon thinking of the Messenger that his students would get up a leave heart brokened at seeing his state, and who forbade the caliph to get rid of the wood of the original mimbar, because he upheld the outward purport of a hadith and caliphal sunna whose literal interpretation you disagree with, results in the place of revelation becoming a litering ground?
    There is not one post that you will read from me where I disparage the scholars much less Imam Malik (ra). I have nothing but respect for them and what they have done. A disagreement about a matter does not equal disrespect.
    We should all admonish the situation, but piggy backing off of Vinod's single-issue stances is not criticism. Its emotional pandering. I uphold what the `ulama have upheld, and I wouldn't litter in my job's parking lot. That my dear sir, was a cheap shot.
    I'm not sure who I would be pandering to. I stated what I stated because of what I see. You presume things about my words but maybe it was my fault because I may have been unclear.
    Maybe the situation stems from a general irreligious-ness amongst the masses of people, coupled with a state enforced mentality that such places are of no importance. Claiming it has anything to do with apostasy laws as an academic disagreement is preposterous.
    By now, we all know that there are certain issues with apostasy laws. In fact, I clearly pointed them out in a conversation with brother Hussein. Whatever the outcome of that conversation, I clearly stated my issues.

    This was not an academic disagreement but a commentary on the Muslim masses. It was not about "Wahhabbis" (I don't even call people that), it was not about Saudis or non-Saudis. Even if I think the maintainers of these sites should do a much better job. It's not about that. It's about Muslims and their lack of regard for anything. The issue is about mentality and mind frame. It is in the attitude of the masses. The scholars can come up with various opinions but the masses can act accordingly to the edicts. However, they don't. If the Muslims cared in the first place they would have not left a mess...the same goes for opinions and how the masses are careless about them. To my mind, the "apostasy laws" are to be questioned by the masses. Instead, they seem not to think twice or regard or even consider the consequences of the matter. The attitude of Muslims towards Islam is no different than their attitude towards religious or historical sites.

    So the commentary was not about scholars or sects, it was about the attitude of Muslims.

    Regards

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