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Thread: Gay Marriage and Polygamy - a Constitutional Right?

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    Veteran Member vinod's Avatar
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    Default Gay Marriage and Polygamy - a Constitutional Right?

    Peter Sean Bradley makes an interesting analysis of the consequences of the California Supreme Court's decision to offocially recognize gay marriages as it relates to polygamy. The decision also covered why polygamy should not be allowed even though gay marriages should.
    Polygamy as a Constitutional Right

    Despite the several times that California voters have rejected gay marriage in California, a fairly conservative Supreme Court has enacted it into law...or, more properly, discovered that the framers of the California Consitution always intended that men could marry men.

    A few questions:

    First, why not polygamy? Why is "two" a "magic number"? Could it be because we have two arms? Could it be because we have two eyes?

    Or could it be because there are two sexes, and now that the idea that the complementarity of the different genders is now considered outmoded and irrelevant, why should "two" be a limitation any more than the idea that a "man" and a "woman" constitute a married couple?

    Second, haven't we always known that this was going to happen? It didn't matter how often the voters stated their sovereign preference by wide margins that they wanted to structure their society around the idea that marriage was intrinsically and essentially connected to procreation, we've always known that gay marriage would make its march through the elite governance system.

    And now it has happened.

    What has happened to the ideal of democracy? The idea that citizens govern rather than are subjects of their governors seems to have died a silent, unlamented death.

    What is the point of making sure that "every vote counts" when a majority vote doesn't count?

    Strange days are ahead, not the least of which is that we have been on a long journey against the basic democratic notions that this country was founded upon.

    "The California Supreme Court has your back" Update:

    At least the California Supreme Court is going through the motions of trying to constitutionalize the "number 2" - founded as it is on the great constitutional principle that while the fact that there are two sexes is irrelevant to marriage, the number "two" is the burning core of "true marriage" because.....they say so.

    The Court dropped a footnote that simply has to push the needle of unintended humor.

    After spending nearly 30 pages explaining how wrong traditional American culture has been for the last 40 years - before it does on to explain how California voters really didn't know what they were doing 8 years ago - the Court drops this re-assuring footnote:


    52. We emphasize that our conclusion that the constitutional right to marry properly must be interpreted to apply to gay individuals and gay couples does not mean that this constitutional right similarly must be understood to extend to polygamous or incestuous relationships. Past judicial decisions explain why our nation’s culture has considered the latter types of relationships inimical to the mutually supportive and healthy family relationships promoted by the constitutional right to marry. (See, e.g., Reynolds v. United States (1878) 98 U.S. 145, 165-166; Davis v. Beason (1890) 133 U.S. 333, 341; People v. Scott (2007) 157 Cal.App.4th 189, 192-194; State v. Freeman (Ohio Ct.App. 2003) 801 N.E.2d 906, 909; Smith v. State (Tenn.Crim.App. 1999) 6 S.W.3d 512, 518-520.) Although the historic disparagement of and discrimination against gay individualsand gay couples clearly is no longer constitutionally permissible, the state continues to have a strong and adequate justification for refusing to officially sanction polygamous or incestuous relationships because of their potentially detrimental effect on a sound family environment. (Accord, e.g., Potter v. Murray City (C.D. Utah 1984) 585 F.Supp. 1126, 1137-1140, affd. (10th Cir. 1985) 760 F.2d 1065, 1068-1071, cert. den. (1985) 474 U.S. 849; People v. Scott, supra, 157 Cal.App.4th 189, 193-194.) Thus, our conclusion that it is improper to interpret the state constitutional right to marry as inapplicable to gay individuals or couples does not affect the constitutional validity of the existing legal prohibitions against polygamy and the marriage of close relatives.
    < sarcasm >Right that makes perfectly logical sense.< /sarcasm >

    Because we know that no court in the future - say, within the next 8 years - would ever look back on the dark ages of prejudice, i.e., 2008, to explain that the then prevailing cultural mores stifled the ability of people who were "wired" to express themselves through polygamy.

    After all, the Court's 2008 decision is basing its holding that polygamy is "inimical to the mutually supportive and healthy family relationships" on a pair of decisions from the Nineteenth Century!!!

    Good heavens, did these justices even read this decision? How hard would it be for someone with an ounce of intelligence to trot out a "modern" study, say, from 1901, to argue that polygamy is consistent with "mutually supportive and healthy family relationships?

    After all, it's not like there aren't entire regions of the world - and millenia of time - that actually demonstrate that polygamy is perfectly consistent with "mutually supportive and healthy family relationships."

    No one can really argue that polygamy doesn't "work" as an institution that protects women and children from the vicissitudes of life while providing social stability.

    The problem with polygamy is that it doesn't work for a culture that wants equality of the sexes or an idea of marriage that is something more than a kind of business enterprise, i.e., for a culture that wants the ideal of Christian marriage.

    On the other hand, while polygamy has been tested and has been found to be consistent with "mutually supportive and healthy family relationships," when precisely has it been shown that gay marriage isn't "inimical" to "mutually supportive and healthy family relationships." Is there a sociological study of the a two-thousand year old corner of Marin County that proves that gay marriage works that we are not aware of?

    The evidence is obviously to the contrary. Time and time again it has been demonstrated that the overwhelming majority of gay couples are not faithful and supportive to each other, but, rather, act as - surprise - unmarried men.

    But don't worry about the coming of polygamy; we have a tendentious, illogical, unintentionally droll footnote explaining how polygamy is so very different from gay marriage because a Supreme Court decision from 1870 - and a clutch of other cases decided before or shortly after the 2003 decision of Lawrence v. Texas didn't get the message that the most important constitutional right of all is not the right to free speech about politics, but the constitutional right to play "Nanny and the Professor."

    But it's this exercise in fantasy of a footnote that is our "mighty bulwark" against polygamy.

    Terrific.
    1.4 billion people live under the poverty line - 1.25 USD per day. 20000 Africans die needlessly everyday due to AIDS, malaria and TB. 1.02 billion people do not have enough to eat. 3/4s of this are rural poor farmers who will also bear the brunt of global warming.

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    Veteran Member junaid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage and Polygamy - a Constitutional Right?

    The following are responses to excerpts.

    Quote Originally Posted by vinod View Post
    Because we know that no court in the future - say, within the next 8 years - would ever look back on the dark ages of prejudice, i.e., 2008, to explain that the then prevailing cultural mores stifled the ability of people who were "wired" to express themselves through polygamy.
    I believe it is inappropriate to compare gay marriage with polygamy under normal circumstances.

    First, gay marriage provides for a decent life for those who would otherwise be spending more time in psychological wards OR in rampant sexual behaviour as had happened in the 1970s. So marriage is kind of like an institution to curb that expression of free sex. On the other hand polygamy (without any resort to caring for orphans or widows in wartime) leads to a legtimitized sanctioning of rampant sex, for who is to stop the number of women taken as wives?

    Second, the LGBT have been persecuted throughout history and the vitriol flows in this article as well albeit in the garb of intellectual analysis. However, polygamy has always been valorized in history, eg: Solomon's satisfaction of 100 women in one night, and the relative sizes of harems.

    ***************


    Quote Originally Posted by vinod View Post
    No one can really argue that polygamy doesn't "work" as an institution that protects women and children from the vicissitudes of life while providing social stability.
    How many cases of Mormon abuse of polygamy will people need to understand polygamy is a power tool over women brainwashed from a wee age. Even in Pakistan, the older wife is replaced for a younger model? Why is the next wife never usually an older widow or an unattractive woman?

    *******************

    Quote Originally Posted by vinod View Post
    The evidence is obviously to the contrary. Time and time again it has been demonstrated that the overwhelming majority of gay couples are not faithful and supportive to each other, but, rather, act as - surprise - unmarried men.
    They are not even allowed to marry as yet. Yet 75&#37; of lesbians remain faithful partners and so do 40 - 50% of gay couples.

    Man in general is prone to having more sexual partners, whether straight or gay. And gay marriage should curb that expression of desire. Polygamy without restrictions works in the opposite way.

    I believe the writer needs to understand why 50% of marriages end in divorce, why a large number or men cheat or find opportunities to do so, whether straight or gay.

    It's simply because the culture valorizes sex. That should be the area of study and interest, and not subjugating a minority that already has enough problems of its own.
    There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic ~ Blessed Mother Teresa

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    Default Re: Gay Marriage and Polygamy - a Constitutional Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by junaid View Post
    They are not even allowed to marry as yet. Yet 75% of lesbians remain faithful partners and so do 40 - 50% of gay couples.

    Man in general is prone to having more sexual partners, whether straight or gay. And gay marriage should curb that expression of desire. Polygamy without restrictions works in the opposite way.

    I believe the writer needs to understand why 50% of marriages end in divorce, why a large number or men cheat or find opportunities to do so, whether straight or gay.

    It's simply because the culture valorizes sex. That should be the area of study and interest, and not subjugating a minority that already has enough problems of its own.
    Do you have sources for this?
    The image-obsessed, bloodthirsty, sensationalistic world outside your window is the real madhouse.

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    Veteran Member Al-Boriqi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage and Polygamy - a Constitutional Right?

    yeah, the same that happened with gays is as well applicable to polygamy

    when that madman michael savage did his show that same afternoon those immoral thugsters legislated lutiness, some dumb lesbian called on the show and said "i can't believe how much hate your spewing"

    he was saying to this idiot lesbian "do you accept that the state legalize polygamy" and she drowned herself and her sexual orientation with the word "no".

    then he ripped her a new one calling her a hipocrite for believing the state should prevent polygamous mariage, but no gay marraige. The "same' forces that were preventing gay marraige, are the same forces that prevent polygamy (here in this country that is)

    the argument of ***** (gays)is that why should other people hinder our "right" to marry whom we want, and that same argument is equally distributed to the groups of polygamous livelihood throughout the united states.

    junaid said

    I believe it is inappropriate to compare gay marriage with polygamy under normal circumstances.

    First, gay marriage provides for a decent life for those who would otherwise be spending more time in psychological wards OR in rampant sexual behaviour as had happened in the 1970s. So marriage is kind of like an institution to curb that expression of free sex. On the other hand polygamy (without any resort to caring for orphans or widows in wartime) leads to a legtimitized sanctioning of rampant sex, for who is to stop the number of women taken as wives?
    I never thought the day would come where someone who claims to be a muslim who believes in Allah and His messenger would intertwine these two realities in one blow

    1. that Allah would say "marry for yourselves 4s, or 3s, or 2s. But if you cannot do justice (societal justice) between them, then marry only 1"
    and then say "polygamy leads to 'legitimized sanctioning of rampant sex"

    along with this, combine it with the following

    2. after Allah's revealing the most vile, the most horendous of sins after polytheism, and narrated to us a nation who's punishment was unmatched by any other nation who were punished, after all the momumental documentation of religious texts within Islam, and within the former faiths regarding the animality of this vomiting form of action, then one would say

    "fagetry provides an descent form of lifestyle" after the Allah revealing something far contradictory to this phrase, no matter what came after the phrase.
    Last edited by Ron; 23rd May 2008 at 23:09. Reason: Inappropriate use of language.
    Islamic Thought In the Modern Era of the Islamic Awakening: Dissemination of Islamic research and studies
    al-Mustaqeem Publications
    “The bonds of Islam will be broken one by one. Every time a bond is undone, the people will cling to the bond that follows. The first of these bonds is rulership (khilaafa) and the last is the prayer (salah).” Reported by Ahmad and Tabarani. Al-Hakim stated that the chain is authentic.

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    Default Re: Gay Marriage and Polygamy - a Constitutional Right?

    Al Boriqi,

    Please don't use words like stupid, dumb, idiot, etc...towards other people even if they're not here. You really don't need to use that type of language to get your point across.

  6. #6
    Veteran Member junaid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage and Polygamy - a Constitutional Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al-Boriqi View Post
    when that madman michael savage ..... those immoral thugsters ......dumb lesbian .....idiot lesbian...... "fagetry provides....... the animality of this vomiting form of action, .......
    Hmmm......

    Quote Originally Posted by Al-Boriqi View Post
    ....and then say "polygamy leads to 'legitimized sanctioning of rampant sex".......
    The exact words from post 2 are: polygamy (without any resort to caring for orphans or widows in wartime) leads to a legtimitized sanctioning of rampant sex,

    Quote Originally Posted by Al-Boriqi View Post
    after Allah's revealing the most vile, the most horendous of sins after polytheism, and narrated to us a nation who's punishment was unmatched by any other nation who were punished,
    Baseless rhetoric.
    There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic ~ Blessed Mother Teresa

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    Veteran Member junaid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage and Polygamy - a Constitutional Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramsey View Post
    Do you have sources for this?
    Oui, as below.

    They are not even allowed to marry as yet.

    That's clear for the US.

    **********

    Yet 75&#37; of lesbians remain faithful partners and so do 40 - 50% of gay couples.

    Email excerpt to me from Imam Daayiee Abdullah.

    NGLTF's report from 2006 about gay marriage and the "openness" of these relationships-----men (more than 50 percent], ....lesbians [more than 25 percent]

    ************

    Man in general is prone to having more sexual partners, whether straight or gay....why a large number or men cheat or find opportunities to do so, whether straight or gay.

    General statement, I'll buttress with:

    http://www.menstuff.org/issues/byiss...litystats.html

    Conservative infidelity statistics estimate that “60 percent of men and 40 percent of women will have an extramarital affair.

    *********************

    And gay marriage should curb that expression of desire.

    General statement, in the Western context there is a debate on this:

    http://members.aol.com/gaymatter/monog.htm

    Studies implying gay monogamy is statistically rare
    Studies implying large percentage of gay couples practice monogamy

    Though, you could be right, given that marriage never curbed desire for some:

    http://www.ayubmed.edu.pk/JAMC/PAST/...ehan%20STD.htm

    Profile of Men suffering from Sexually Transmitted Infections in Pakistan

    Two hundred and seventy nine men (60%) were married while 186 men (40%) were unmarried.

    **************

    Polygamy without restrictions works in the opposite way.

    General opinion.

    I believe the writer needs to understand why 50% of marriages end in divorce,

    http://www.divorcemag.com/statistics/statsWorld.shtml

    US: 45.8%

    It's simply because the culture valorizes sex.

    General opinion of the Western culture. Even the Eastern , where masculinity in terms of having sex with younger novices is valorized.

    ....not subjugating a minority that already has enough problems of its own.

    Statements similar to those made in post 4 are ubiquitous. As well as the influx of drugs within youth that use them to cope with post 4 rhetoric.
    There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic ~ Blessed Mother Teresa

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    Veteran Member Al-Boriqi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage and Polygamy - a Constitutional Right?

    [QUOTE=junaid;116557]Hmmm......



    The exact words from post 2 are: polygamy (without any resort to caring for orphans or widows in wartime) leads to a legtimitized sanctioning of rampant sex,



    Baseless rhetoric.[/QUOT]

    i know the exact words, and thats pretty much a declaration that you declared Allah's ayaah as "leading to legitimized sanctioning of rampant sex"
    for Allah never qualified polygamy only to be done in the name of caring for orphans or widows.

    Nor did the history of islamic polygamy throughout the 14 centuries lead to what you claim it leads to, which again ensures that your theory is the one that is baseless rhetoric
    Islamic Thought In the Modern Era of the Islamic Awakening: Dissemination of Islamic research and studies
    al-Mustaqeem Publications
    “The bonds of Islam will be broken one by one. Every time a bond is undone, the people will cling to the bond that follows. The first of these bonds is rulership (khilaafa) and the last is the prayer (salah).” Reported by Ahmad and Tabarani. Al-Hakim stated that the chain is authentic.

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    Veteran Member junaid's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Al-Boriqi View Post
    i know the exact words, .... for Allah never qualified polygamy only to be done in the name of caring for orphans or widows.
    "You shall hand over to the ORPHANS their rightful properties. ......IF you fear that you will not be equitable towards the ORPHANS*, THEN you may marry those who are agreeable to you of the women: two, and three, and four. If you fear lest you become unfair, then you shall be content with only one, or with what you already have. Additionally, you are thus more likely to avoid financial hardship." (4/2-3)

    "They consult you concerning women: say, "GOD enlightens you regarding them, as recited for you in the scripture. The mothers of ORPHANS* that you wish to marry but do not give them their due dowries, you shall be just. The rights of young boys must also be protected. You shall treat the orphans equitably. Whatever good you do, GOD is fully aware thereof." (4/127)
    There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic ~ Blessed Mother Teresa

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    Veteran Member Al-Boriqi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage and Polygamy - a Constitutional Right?

    here is the actual ayaah that you unintentionally (or otherwise) distorted

    And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphangirls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the captives and the slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice.
    ( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #3)

    in other words one of the primary reasons for polygamy is through these reasons i.e. taking care of the widow and or the orhpans, but NOT LIMITED TO that. For then Allah says that if one will not do justice in that regard, THEN MARRY (OTHER) WOMEN OF YOUR CHOICE"

    asalamu alaikum
    Islamic Thought In the Modern Era of the Islamic Awakening: Dissemination of Islamic research and studies
    al-Mustaqeem Publications
    “The bonds of Islam will be broken one by one. Every time a bond is undone, the people will cling to the bond that follows. The first of these bonds is rulership (khilaafa) and the last is the prayer (salah).” Reported by Ahmad and Tabarani. Al-Hakim stated that the chain is authentic.

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    Default Re: Gay Marriage and Polygamy - a Constitutional Right?

    Salam Al Boriqi,

    Weren't you arguing with me that the number four is what the norm should be? How could it be the norm when it is related to orphans and taking care of the widows?

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    Veteran Member junaid's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage and Polygamy - a Constitutional Right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Al-Boriqi View Post
    And if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphangirls, then marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four but if you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them), then only one or (the captives and the slaves) that your right hands possess. That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice.
    ( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #3)

    And IF you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly with the orphangirls,

    THEN marry (other) women of your choice, two or three, or four

    BUT IF you fear that you shall not be able to deal justly (with them),

    THEN ONLY ONE

    OR (the CAPTIVES AND SLAVES) that your right hands possess.

    That is nearer to prevent you from doing injustice.

    ( سورة النساء , An-Nisa, Chapter #4, Verse #3)
    There is only one God and He is God to all; therefore it is important that everyone is seen as equal before God. I’ve always said we should help a Hindu become a better Hindu, a Muslim become a better Muslim, a Catholic become a better Catholic ~ Blessed Mother Teresa

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    Veteran Member vinod's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage and Polygamy - a Constitutional Right?

    Junaid, reaaalllly clever.
    1.4 billion people live under the poverty line - 1.25 USD per day. 20000 Africans die needlessly everyday due to AIDS, malaria and TB. 1.02 billion people do not have enough to eat. 3/4s of this are rural poor farmers who will also bear the brunt of global warming.

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    Veteran Member lumumba_s's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage and Polygamy - a Constitutional Right?

    Junaid and Vinod, what is the reason for mentioning orphanage, marriage, and equity in the same verse? Not only orphanage, but orphangirls... Do you really want to go down that road? Considering your views about certain aspects of "traditional" marriage, how clever is that really?
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Veteran Member vinod's Avatar
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    Default Re: Gay Marriage and Polygamy - a Constitutional Right?

    Lumumba

    I could not get the gist of your post. Pls clarify

    Regards
    1.4 billion people live under the poverty line - 1.25 USD per day. 20000 Africans die needlessly everyday due to AIDS, malaria and TB. 1.02 billion people do not have enough to eat. 3/4s of this are rural poor farmers who will also bear the brunt of global warming.

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