Ahl-e-Bait (A.S) or Aal-e-Rasool (A.S)

[Hurr]

Assalam-o-Alaikum!

Who are the Ahl-e-Bait (A.S), are they superior than the other companions of Muhammad (pbuh). is it essential that to find the right path to heaven, we have to follow the Ahl-e-Bait (A.s) after the death of Prophet (pbuh). is it true that Ahl-e-Bait only includes the Aal-e-Rasool (A.S).

[DocW]

Answer by Moiz AMjad from UI web site


The family of the Prophet (pbuh) does enjoy a special position with respect to the reverence in which the Ummah has generally held them. Nevertheless, this 'special' position is solely due to the love and respect that the Ummah has for the Prophet (pbuh) himself. However, the family of the Prophet (pbuh), with the exception of his wives, does not enjoy any special position as a matter of faith. As far as the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) are concerned, the Qur'an has placed them at a revered position of the "Mothers of the believers". This, as should be clear from the words, is also a distinct position with regard to love and respect.

Thus, we may say that the family of the Prophet (pbuh) has, generally, been given a distinct position by the Muslims, not because Islam demands this special position for the family of the Prophet (pbuh), but because of their love and respect for the Prophet (pbuh) himself.

[DocW]

answer by Moiz Amjad from UI web site

the Prophet's (pbuh) progeny is not given a specific religious status - especially as a source of religion - merely on biological basis. If any one were to hold the Prophet's progeny in more respect and reverence than his wives or other companions, who am I to object? However, if anyone were to give a special religious status to the Prophet's (pbuh) progeny, merely on biological grounds, then I would want to know the source of that special religious status in the Qur'an. As far as the love and respect for the progeny of the Prophet (pbuh), indeed, it deserves our special love and affection merely on its biological connection with the Prophet (pbuh).

[DocW]

response from Moiz AMjad on the UI web site

You state:

If you read Qur'an you will find their special status ( Ahl al bait) indicated in Qur'an 33:33... in which they purified with a thorough purification.

The word 'Ahl' in the Arabic language is a masculine word. It is because of this reason that the pronouns used for the phrase "Ahl al-Bayet" are masculine. Such gender is not real but is actually a linguistic gender in its nature. Thus, the masculine gender of the pronouns used for the phrase 'Ahl al-Bayet' do not, in any way, hinder interpreting the phrase for 'the wives of the Prophet (pbuh) - the revered mothers of the believers. Just take a look at the verse under consideration, in its proper context. Al-Ahzaab 33: 28 - 34 reads as follows:

O Prophet, say to your wives: If you seek the life of this world and its pleasures, come I shall make provision for you and release you in the best of manners. But if you seek [the pleasures of] God and His apostle and the [blessings of the] life hereafter, know that God has prepared a great reward for those among you who act in the best of manners. O wives of the Prophet, those who are guilty of clear lewdness, from among you, shall be doubly punished. That is extremely easy for God. But those who are obedient to God and His messenger, from among you, and do good deeds, We shall doubly reward her and for her We have made a rich provision. O wives of the Prophet, you are not like other women. If you fear God, then do not be overly complacent in your speech [with others], lest a flame of desire may light in the heart of the lecherous. And speak [to them] discreetly. And stay in your houses and do not display your adornments as was done in the days of ignorance, of old. And establish regular prayer and pay Zaka'h and obey Allah and His messenger. O household [of the Prophet], God only desires to remove all uncleanness from you and to completely purify you. And, [O wives of the Prophet,] adhere to the remembrance of what is being recited in your dwellings from the signs [or verses] of God and His wisdom. Indeed, God is fully aware of even the minutest.

Any one can see that the implication of the underlined phrase 'household' ("Ahl al-Bayet" in Arabic) in the above context can only be the 'wives of the Prophet'. When all the directives surrounding the phrase are meant only for the wives of the Prophet, how could the phrase 'household of the Prophet', which is actually a part of a verse, which describes the reason and the wisdom of the directives that precede and succeed it, be taken to imply anyone besides the wives.

Thus, it is quite obvious that the phrase 'Ahl al-Bayet' in the cited verses is meant only for the wives of the Prophet.

You further write:

Also Qur'an 42:23 in which their love is required of us, and finally Qur'an 5:55.

Let us first take Al-Shooraa 42: 23. The verse reads as:

Such is God's promise to His servants, who believe and do good deeds. Say: For this I demand of you no recompense. I ask you only to love the kindred. He that does a good deed shall be repaid many times over. God is forgiving and bountiful in His rewards.

I really do not know what exactly do you intend to prove from this verse. Nevertheless, it is quite obvious that it has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of the 'Ahl al-Bayet' or their status with reference to being a source of Islam.

Al-Maaidah 5: 55 reads as:

Indeed, your true friends are only Allah, His Prophet and those who have believed, who establish regular prayer, pay Zaka'h and those who remain bowed [to God's will].

Once again, it should be quite clear for the reader that the verse has absolutely nothing to do with the definition of the phrase 'Ahl al-Bayet' or their position as a source of Islam.

[DocW]

Response from Moiz Amjad from the UI web site

QUESTION:I am wondering if you are aware of the famous hadith al-thaqalyn (two weighty things), which the Prophet (saawaws) said he left for us on his last pilgrimage. He clearly and specifically said "Qur'an and Ahlul Bait." He NEVER said Qur'an and Sunnah. This hadith is present in ONLY ONE book (al-Mustadrak of al-Hakim), has ONLY ONE narrator and is regarded as WEAK by the criteria of Bukhari and Muslim. It is NOT present in ANY of the Sahih Sittah. You are welcome to verify this. The "Quran/Ahlul Bait" version is present in 5/6 Sahih Sittah and its tawatur and isnad is not questioned. Of course, all Muslims must follow the Sunnah, but the Prophet (s) clearly tells us here who carries it.

The above statements clearly imply the fact that the opinion, which holds the 'Ahl al-Bayet' to be a source of Islam is not based on the Qur'an, but tries to find support from narratives ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) - i.e. Hadith. Thus, it would seem pertinent that the particular narrative ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), termed as 'Hadith al-thaqalayn' should be briefly analyzed, before any decisions are derived from it.

In the more accepted compilations of narratives ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh), the 'Hadith al-Thaqalayn' has been reported by Muslim, Tirmidhi, Ahmad Ibn Hanbal and Daarimiy. Another important aspect to note about the 'Hadith al-Thaqalayn' is that it has been narrated in two different versions. In one of these versions, the Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said:



'I am going to leave in you two heavy burdens. The first of them is the Book of Allah in it is the true guidance and the light. Therefore, hold fast to it'. Then he [i.e. the Prophet (pbuh)] prompted and induced the Muslims to adhere to the Book of God. Then he said: 'And my household. I remind you of God in matters relating to my household. I remind you of God in matters relating to my household. I remind you of God in matters relating to my household.'

This version has been reported (with very minor variations, if any) by Muslim, Ahmad ibn Hanbal and Daarimiy. An important thing to note about the words ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh) in this version is that it does not place the 'Ahl al-Bayet' at the level of being a source of Islam. It only directs the Muslims to refrain from adopting an uncalled for attitude toward them. Obviously, the words: "I remind you of God, in matters relating to my household", can in no way be construed to imply that the Prophet intended to give his household the position of the source of Islam, parallel to that of the Qur'an. Thus, this version, obviously, is not of much use for those who would like to establish that the two sources of Islam are the Qur'an and the 'Ahl al-Bayet'.

In the second version of the 'Hadith al-Thaqalayn', the Prophet (pbuh) is reported to have said:



I have left in you something, which if you strictly adhere to, you shall never go astray - The book of God and my progeny - i.e. my Ahl al-Bayet.

This version, with some variation has been narrated by Tirmidhi and Ahmad ibn Hanbal. Following are the chain of narrators of this version of the narrative:

The first chain of narrators, as reported by Tirmidhi, includes Nasr ibn Abd al-Rahmaan al-Koofi - Zayed ibn al-Hasan al-Anmaatiy - Ja`fer ibn Mohammed - Mohammed ibn Ali ibn Hussain...

The second person in the chain is Zayed ibn al-Hasan. Zahabiy in his book "Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal" has quoted Abu Haatim as saying that Zayed is 'Munkir al-Hadith' - i.e. Zayed narrates repudiated and abominable narratives. Ibn Hajar has considered him to be Dha`eef - i.e. a weak or an unreliable narrator (Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb). Even Tirmidhi, who has reported the said narrative, does not consider it to be 'Sahih'. On the contrary, Tirmidhi, in his comments says that this narrative is 'Hasan' (which is less than 'Sahih') and is Ghareeb - i.e. strange in its content and not widely recognized.

The second chain of narrators, as reported in Musnad Ahmad Ibn Hanbal is: Al-Aswad ibn `aamir - Shareek ibn Abd Allah ibn Abi Shareek - Al-Rakeen ibn al-Rabiy` -- Al-Qaasim ibn Hassaan - Zayed ibn Thaabit...

The second person in this chain is Shareek ibn Abd Allah ibn Abi Shareek. Yahya ibn Sa`eed has considered him 'extremely unreliable' (Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal). Mohammed ibn Yahya says that his father said: 'I have noticed confusion in Shareek's principles' (Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal). Abd al-Jabbaar ibn Mohammed says that once he asked Yahya ibn Sa`eed whether Shareek had become confused in his last days, to which Yahya ibn Sa`eed replied: "He (i.e. Shareek) was always confused" (Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal). Ibn al-Mubaarak says: 'Narratives of Shareek are worthless' (Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal). Juzjaaniy says: '[Shareek had a] faulty memory, [was] confused [in] narrating, [was] prejudiced' (Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal). Ibraheem ibn Sa`eed al-Jauhariy says: 'Shareek committed mistakes in four hundred narratives' (Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal). Ibn Mu`een says: When Shareek's narratives contradict with someone else's, the other person is preferable to me' (Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal).

The fourth person in this chain is Al-Qaasim ibn Hassaan. Bukhari says: 'His narratives are Munkar (i.e. repudiated and abominable) and nothing is known about him' (Meezaan al-Ai`tidaal). Ibn al-Qattaan says: 'nothing is known about him' (Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb).

The third chain of narrators as reported in Tirmidhi is: Ali ibn al-Munzir al-Koofiy - Mohammed ibn Fudhayl - Al-A`mash - `Atiyyah - Abu Sa`eed.

The first and the second narrator in this chain i.e. Ali ibn al-Munzir al-Koofiy and Mohammed ibn Fudhayl are both known to be Shi`ahs (i.e. Shiites). It is an established principle of most of the scholars of Hadith that if the content of a narrative is peculiar to a particular school of thought (as is the case in this narrative), then such a narrative would not be acceptable, if it is narrated by a person who ascribes to such a school (Al-Kifaayah fi `ilm al-Riwaayah). Besides this, Mohammed ibn Fudhayl is also criticized by Ibn al-Mubarak as not being liked by his contemporaries. (Dhu`afaa al-`Uqayliy). Moreover, Mohammed ibn Sa`d has said that 'his narratives are not considered by many to evidence a true saying of the Prophet (pbuh)' (Siyar A`laam al-Nubalaa).

The fourth narrator in this chain is `Atiyyah ibn Sa`d. Yahya ibn Mu`een considers him to be dha`eef - i.e. unreliable (Al-Kaamil fi al-Dhu`afaa). Ahmad ibn Hanbal says that he incorrectly ascribes narratives that he hears from al-Kalabiy to Abu Sa`eed (Al-Kaamil fi al-Dhu`afaa). The same thing is reported by Ibn Hibbaan (Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb). Ahmad ibn Hanbal says that Sufiyaan al-Thauriy considered him unreliable (Al-Kaamil fi al-Dhu`afaa). Ibn Hajar says that he commits a lot of mistakes (Taqreeb al-Tehzeeb). Al-Nasaaiy and ibn Hibbaan consider him to be unreliable (Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb). Abu Dawood says: 'He cannot be trusted' (Tehzeeb al-Tehzeeb).

Besides these three chains, all other chains of narration of this version of the narrative include one or more of those narrators who have been strongly criticized by scholars of Hadith (cited above).

In view of the cited criticism on the chain of narrators of this narrative, it is obvious that no one can safely ascribe this saying to the Prophet (pbuh). It is, therefore, very respectfully submitted to our 'neutral' friend to kindly provide the chain of narrators, which in his opinion is clear of criticism and on the basis of which, this narrative can safely be ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh).

[DocW]

Who are included in Ahl al Bait

I. `Ali, Fatima, Hasan, and Husayn (in addition to their descendants: Muhassan, Zaynab, and Umm Kulthum [other children of `Ali and Fatima]; among the children of al-Hasan: Zayd, al-Qasim, Abu Bakr, `Abd Allah, `Umar, al-Hasan, `Abd al-Rahman, al-Husayn, `Amr, Muhammad, Ya`qub, Ja`far, Hamza, and Talha; among the children of al-Husayn: Abu Bakr, `Abd Allah, `Ali al-Kabir, `Ali Zayn al-`Abidin, `Umar, Fatima, Sukayna, Zaynab al-Sughra, and Umm Kulthum al-Sughra).

II. The wives of the Prophet

1. Khadija bint Khuwaylid. She gave birth to: al-Qasim, `Abd Allah, Zaynab, Fatima al-Zahra', Ruqiyya, & Umm Kulthum.

2. Sawda bint Zam`a

3. `A'isha bint al-Siddiq

4. Hafsa bint `Umar

5. Zaynab bint Khuzayma

6. Umm Salama, Hind bint Umayya

7. Zaynab bint Jahsh

8. Juwayriyya bint al-Harith

9. Safiyya bint Huyayy

10. Umm Habiba bint Abi Sufyan

11. Maymuna bint al-Harith

12. Marya al-Qibtiyya, she was a surriyya (concubine). She gave birth to Ibrahim.

III. The Banu Hashim and the Banu al-Muttalib.

To Shia Muslims, the Ahl al-Bayt or household of Muhammad refers to his daughter Fatima al-Zahra, his successor, son-in-law, and cousin Ali, their two sons Hasan ibn Ali and Husayn ibn Ali, and the nine Imams from the lineage of Husayn ibn Ali and Hasan ibn Ali's daughter.

[DocW]

According to shia Muslims the Ahlal Bait are the Godly ones of the Family of the Holy Prophet whom the Shia Muslims acknowledge as the Pure Personalities and hold them as INFALLIBLE Holy ones PURIFIED By God Himself.

,The Highest degree of purity means to be kept constantly away from all the causes of impurity. This is termed as the State of Infallibility in Knowledge, character and action. It could have been applied generally to the whole mankind who are keeping aloof from all the impurities as The Word of God Commands; But, God expressively Has confined His Order to certain Group of Individuals by excluding the rest of the mankind from it in His Divine Will by declaring the 'Ahlal Bait' as the persons purified by Him to be constantly in touch with the Qur'an in its original, hidden, well protected, exalted and purified form. It was Allah's Wish to remove all blemish from them.

The shia Muslims quote the following hadith from the prophet pbuh

" The Holy Ones of my Ahlal Bait ( The Twelve Imams) are The Source of Guidance for the people. And, as the stars will remain in the sky until The Day of Judgment, The earth will never be without a Divinely Guide from My Ahlal Bait, That is an Imam".

[sheik]

Salaam,

I found this discussion slightly interesting. I have skimmed over DocW's argument for the most part, if I quote something in redundancy, my apologies.

The Ahlul-Bayt are not the Prophet's wives.

The Ahlul-Bayt begin with the Prophet himself and include his daughter Fatima and her husband Ali, from their you must look at the Jafari, or twelver school of thought for the rest. There are a total of 14 infallibles that make up the Ahlul Bayt. In 33:33, as DocW mentioned, there is a clear indication, as well as word choice to describe the Ahlul Bayt.

Now the question that arises is, why arent the wives the infallible ones? Let us take the Battle of the Camel, where Bibi Aisha led an uprising against Ali. Someone had alterior motives when it came to the caliphate. The person who had alterior motives cannot be infallible. I shall let you deciede who that was. Also, keep in mind the following narration from a Sunni basis:

The verse of purification "Verily Allah only desires to ... " was revealed to the Prophet (s) in the house of his wife Umm Salama (may Allah be pleased with her); the Prophet called al-Hasan, al-Husayn, Fatima and ‘Ali, and he gathered them together and covered them with the mantle. Then he said, "O Allah, these are my Ahl al-Bayt, so keep away every impurity from the Ahl al-Bayt, and purify them with a perfect purification." Umm Salama said, "Am I with them, O Apostle of Allah?" The Prophet (s) said, "You stay in your place, and you are virtuous."
q al-Tirmidhi, al-Sahih, volume 5, pages 351 and 663
q al­Hakim al­Naysaburi, al­Mustadrak `ala al-Sahihayn, volume 2, page 416. He states that it is sahih in accordance with the criteria of al-Bukhari
q al-Suyuti, al-Durr al-Manthur, volume 5, page 197

Furthermore, from a clearly Sunni context you must examin the extensive amounts of hadith literature by the following can be noted on who the ahlul bayt include



When the verse "(O Muhammad) Say, 'I do not ask for any reward for this (bringing of Allah's message) except the love for the near kinship.'" (42:23) was revealed, the Muslims asked the Prophet: "Who are these near kin of yours whose love is obligatory upon us?" He replied, "'Ali, Fatima, and their two sons."
q al­Hakim al­Naysaburi, al­Mustadrak `ala al-Sahihayn, volume 2, page 444
q al-Qastallani, Irshad al-Sari Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 7, page 331
q al-Suyuti, al-Durr al-Manthur, volume 6, pages 6-7
q al-Alusi al-Baghdadi, Ruh al-Ma’ani, volume 25, pages 31-2

The position of the Ahl al-Bayt was further confirmed by the Qur’an during the disputation with the Christians of Najran. When the verse was revealed "But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge, then say: come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your women and our near people and your near people, then let us be earnest in prayer, and pray for the curse of Allah on the liars." (3:61),the Prophet (s) called ‘Ali, Fatima, al-Hasan and al-Husayn and said: ‘O Allah, these are my Family (Ahli)’.
q Muslim, al-Sahih, (English translation), book 031, number 5915
q al­Hakim al­Naysaburi, al­Mustadrak `ala al-Sahihayn, volume 3, page 150. He states that it is sahih in accordance with the criteria of al-Bukhari and Muslim
q Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqalani, Fath al-Bari Sharh Sahih al-Bukhari, volume 7, page 60
q al-Tirmidhi, al-Sahih, kitab al-manaqib, volume 5, page 596
q Ahmad b. Hanbal, al-Musnad, volume 1, page 185
q al-Suyuti, History of Khalifas Who Took The Right Way, (London, 1995), page 176

q "I and ‘Ali and al-Hasan and al-Husayn and nine of the descendants of al-Husayn are the purified ones and the inerrant." [al-Juwayni, Fara'id al-Simtayn, (Beirut, 1978), page 160. Note that al-Juwayni’s greatness as a scholar of hadith has been attested by al-Dhahabi in Tadhkirat al-Huffaz, volume 4, page 298, and also by Ibn Hajar al-‘Asqalani in al-Durar al-Kaminah, volume 1, page 67]
q "I am the chief of the Prophets and ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib is the chief of successors, and after me my successors shall be twelve, the first of them being ‘Ali ibn Abi Talib and the last of them being al-Mahdi." [al-Juwayni, Fara'id al-Simtayn, page 160]

q "Al-Mahdi is one of us Ahl al-Bayt" and "al-Mahdi will be of my family, of the descendants of Fatima" [Ibn Majah, al-Sunan, volume 2, page 519, numbers 4085-6; Abu Dawud, al-Sunan, volume 2, page 207]



To answer Hurr's question in specific, whether it is essential or not to follow the Ahlul Bayt can be summed up right here

“Behold! My Ahl al-Bayt are like the Ark of Noah. Whoever embarked on it was saved, and whoever turned away from it perished”
q al­Hakim al­Naysaburi, al­Mustadrak `ala al-Sahihayn, volume 3, p. 151 and volume 2, page 343. He states that it is sahih in accordance with the criteria of Muslim
q al-Suyuti, al-Durr al-Manthur, volume 1, pages 71-72
Ibn Hajar al-Makki, al-Sawa’iq al-Muhriqa, page 140. He states that this tradition has come down through many chains of narration that strengthen each other.

as well as

“I am about to answer the call (of death). Verily, I leave behind two precious things (thaqalayn) amongst you: the Book of Allah and my Ahl al­Bayt. Verily, the two will never separate until they come back to me by the side of the Pond.”
q al­Hakim al­Naysaburi, al­Mustadrak `ala al-Sahihayn (Beirut), volume 3, pages 109-110, 148, and 533). He expressly states that the tradition is sahih in accordance with the criteria of al­Bukhari and Muslim; al­Dhahabi has confirmed his judgement
q Muslim, al-Sahih, (English translation), book 031, numbers 5920-3
q al­Tirmidhi, al-Sahih, volume 5, pages 621-2, numbers 3786 and 3788; volume 2, page 219
q al-Nasa'i, Khasa'is’Ali ibn Abi Talib, hadith number 79
q Ahmad b. Hanbal, al-Musnad, volume 3, pages 14, 17, 26; volume 3, page 26, 59; volume 4, page 371; volume 5, pages 181-2, 189-190
q Ibn al­'Athir, Jami` al­'usul, volume 1, page 277
q Ibn Kathir, al­Bidayah wa al­nihayah, volume 5, page 209. He quotes al-Dhahabi and declares this hadith to be sahih.
q Ibn Kathir, Tafsir al-Qur’an al-‘Azim , volume 6, page 199
q Nasir al-Din al-Albani, Silsilat al-Ahadith al-Sahiha (Kuwait: al-Dar al-Salafiyya), volume 4, pages 355-8. He lists many chains of narration that he considers reliable.


I hope this answers your questions for the most part in terms of who the ahlul bayt are and if it is essential for you to follow them.

-Sheik

Salaam

p.s. There must be a distincition made that for the most part DocW is writing from a clearly Sunnite perspective, and only indicates a difference in opinion by denoting that it is "shia" However, I hope that I have offered a Sunnite perspective in terms of addressing Sunni hadith literature and analysis on what DocW terms as "shia" (i.e. the last line in post #6)

[Hashim]

Aslaam Alaaykum ya ummati al wasityyaa

'Sheikh',


Refrain from making such erroneous statements like aishaa (radi'allaah'hu anhaa) led an uprising against Ali (radiaa'allaahu'anhu). You are fully aware that it was Abdullaah Ibn Sabr the yemeni jew and founder of shee'a (lanatualaahu'alaay) who attacked the camp of Aishaa in the midst of the night to cause confusion and entice Aishaa camp to think Ali's camps had attacked them. There was no uprising, Aishaa was adamant to find the killers of uthmaan, Ali felt this was not the time and the tense situation should calm down. Both camps came together to iron out their differences and talk and this shayateen from the insaan took his chance.

[Hannahh]

Not even the Sunni scholars believe or advocate that.

[The_Other_Admin]

(lanatualaahu'alaay)

Why you are using that? Is that the right thing to do?

[Hashim]

Aslaam Alaaykum Waramatulla Wabarakatu,

Hannah, which 'sunni' scholars believe or advocate the pack of lies which leads to the slander of not only two companions, but the wife of nabi (sallallhualaayhee'wa'salaam) and one of the khulafaatu'raashideen and both al ashra tul mubashara.

I am not talking about those elements of ahul sunna wal jamaa'a who merely claim to amongst the sunnis such as the sufis and their like whose agenda is to score points. I mean the core essence of ahlu sunna, the actual sunnis who ascribe to manhaj us salafiyya.

Aishaa was a alimaa amongst the companions, the best of people and took her deen from the nabi (sallallhu'alaayhee'wa'salaam) directly. Are we to believe she would than rebel against the ameer ul mumineen, her own relative, call for arms against the hukaam as if she is from the khawarij, wa la hawla wa la wa ta illabaa.

Chuck, this jew was a munafiq and caused much destruction. He instigated this war and caused the death of thousands of beloved companions, he caused friction between the sahaabaa intentionally. He initated shee'a Islaam causing the divide in the Islaamic 'Ummaa. When Ali was made the ameer he said to Ali -anta anta (claiming Ali is god incarnate inaoudibillaa) and if Abdullaah Ibn Abass did not stop him Ali would have killed him there and then.

[lumumba_s]

As salamu `alaykum,

Hashim, the more I read your posts, the more that I realize the fanaticism, arrogance, and pretentiousness amongst the claimants to the Dawat al-Salafiyya has not yet abided... May Allah place humility in our hearts and breadth in our understanding.

[The_Other_Admin]

Hash I'm aware of the theory, I'm talking about the use of word "lanatualaahu'alaay." I don't think Salaf would use that kind of term.

[Hashim]

Aslaam Alaaykum Waramatulla,

ya akhi Lumamba, ameen, summa ameen.


The 'ulamaa of the past if you read their books or hear the reports of their sermons there was very little kalaam, with a wealth of ayaat from the kitaab and prophetic narrations. In later times in the days of the deviants we find excessive kalaam and little divine references, such is the by product of an addiction to philiosphical reasoning. The same thing I find here and mongst the muslims. A brother, make an accusation against the mother of the believers, Ais'haa (radiaallaahuanha), from which I presented what actually happened. Instead of targeting what I said and responding you attack the person, a sign of weakness, if you don't have the answer don't speak, that voice which urges you on is shaytaan.

Chuck, I gave you the answer you seek. You are questioning the use of this term, I am telling you the person from amongst the salaf Ali Ibn Abi Talib upon hearing this deviance did not resort to terms but went one step further and would have killed him if it were not for Abdulla Ibn Abbas advise. The salaf swiftly dealt with deviance in terms of dealing with magicians and false prophets and other misguided characters with a firm hand. One of the scholars said that if someone comes to you and says that Allaah ta'ala is not above the throne but he is everywhere or something else (inaoudibilla) he is to be killed and his body dumped with the garbage so as to save the muslims from his repugnant smell, this was the statement of an established Imaam of the sunnah.

And Allaah azzawajaal knows best.