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Thread: The West's Deal with the Devil

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    Veteran Member lumumba_s's Avatar
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    Default The West's Deal with the Devil

    To this day, Russian and foreign historians are unsure of the full number of Lenin and Stalin’s victims. Estimates range from 20-40 million total deaths from 1922 to 1953 – and this awesome figure does not include deaths in World War II.

    Stalin committed his worst crimes well before Hitler’s major atrocities got under way. His concentration camps were opened and filled with inmates by the early 1930’s.

    We have forgotten that Germany alone did not spark World War II, as most people believe. Germany and the USSR jointly invaded Poland in 1939; Stalin then attacked neutral Finland. Two years later, Britain and the USSR invaded neutral Iran, and an aggression as lawless and brazen as the joint German-Soviet invasion of Poland. History indeed remains the propaganda of the victors.

    If we keep hectoring Germany and Japan to admit guilt for events of the 1940’s, is it not time the United States, Britain, and Canada admit their own culpability in allying themselves to Stalin, a monster who killed over four times the number of Hitler’s victims?

    After all, Stalin’s concentration camps were up and running a decade ahead of Germany’s. The murder of millions of Ukrainians and White Russians took place before the world’s gaze, 6-7 years before World War II.

    The foolish Roosevelt, who hailed Stalin as `Uncle Joe,’ and the cannier Churchill both knew they were allied to the biggest mass murderer since Genghis Khan. They used a larger devil to fight a smaller, less dangerous one – then paid his price by handing over half of Europe to Moscow. Remember this when today’s warmongers wax poetic about the glories of World War II - and call for WWIII.
    This is just a reminder and a damn good article. [Entire Article]
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: The West's Deal with the Devil

    It is always the fault of "The West" isnt it.......do we need to crank up the scary music everytime the phrase is used?? (que the violins)...

    "The West" is always the villian in IslamoWood (apologies to Hollywood).

    Though as with any melodramatic Script it is usually hyperbole and littered with emotive intrigue which has nothing of substance to give other than the entertainment it provides, however ridiculous the storyline or conspiracy theory espoused.

    Some Muslims, whatever their intentions, seem to enjoy poking the finger and yelling "The West The West" at every historical event as if "The West" is a childs boggy-man and is about to devour them at a whim. How melodramatic.

    A bit like "Ma, the Yankees are comming" or "Its the Injins" or "the Crusaders have arrived".....oh the calamity of it all (you can swoon like scarlet o'hara........... now *swoon*.)

    I wish the melodrama would stop, particularly the one with the islamic 'bent' .... its becoming tiresome.

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    Default Re: The West's Deal with the Devil

    Roy's List:
    In an opinion piece in the Manchester Guardian (10/23/01), Roy wrote, "Here is a list of the countries that America has been at war with - and bombed - since the second world war:" China (1945-46, 1950-53), Korea (1950-53), Guatemala (1954, 1967-69), Indonesia (1958), Cuba (1959-60), Vietnam (1961-73), the Belgian Congo (1964), Laos (1964-73), Peru (1965), Cambodia (1969-70), Nicaragua (the 1980s), El Salvador (the 1980s), Grenada (1983), Libya (1986), Panama (1989), Iraq (1991-99, 2003-07), Bosnia (1995), Sudan (1998), Yugoslavia (1999), and Afghanistan (2001-07).[24] From this, one can calculate that the years 1947-49, 1955-57, 1974-79, 1990 and 2000 were the only peaceful ones. 73% of the years, from World War II's end until 1989, the U.S. was militarily intervening somewhere. After the Berlin Wall fell in 1989 (not counting conflicts like Colombia where governing elites request help against rebellious subpopulations) the U.S. was actively militarily intervening in a foreign country at least 88% of the years into 2007.

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    Veteran Member vinod's Avatar
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    Default Re: The West's Deal with the Devil

    Quote Originally Posted by Targlish
    I wish the melodrama would stop, particularly the one with the islamic 'bent' .... its becoming tiresome
    Unless you stop using every thread on the forum to express your fatigue, very soon we'll have to consign you to two weeks of rest for your recovery and well-being.

    Regards
    1.4 billion people live under the poverty line - 1.25 USD per day. 20000 Africans die needlessly everyday due to AIDS, malaria and TB. 1.02 billion people do not have enough to eat. 3/4s of this are rural poor farmers who will also bear the brunt of global warming.

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    Default Re: The West's Deal with the Devil

    I am still waiting for the americans to pay the "tea tax".

    Vinod.....clearly the comments reflect the melodramatic way certain ideologies are 'played out'. The points made.

    How is this 'fatigue'??

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    Senior Member Hannahh's Avatar
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    Default Re: The West's Deal with the Devil

    Heh.

    [Warning: No Personal Attacks]

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    Default Re: The West's Deal with the Devil

    Quote Originally Posted by Hannahh View Post
    Heh.

    [Administrator's Hammer of Ownage strikes!]
    COC Violation.....Vinod/Ratsy.... your move....

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    Veteran Member lumumba_s's Avatar
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    Default Re: The West's Deal with the Devil

    Targlish, you do know that Eric Margolis is not Muslim right? Other people surely have hands in the current situation and condemns is given where it is earned. Whether it is the "justices" of Saudi Arabia or ex-KGB Vladimir Putin running a country. I would not call the United States supporting a government that systematically killed more people than Hitler "melodrama".
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: The West's Deal with the Devil

    And the honor for the first true genocide in modern history goes to Turkey...Hitler was overheard speaking about the liquidation of the Armenians as an example of a country taking care of ethnics business and getting away with it because history doesn't judge the victors. He was really impressed with Turkey's action. I think the Eastern and Western hemispheres really complement one another in their politics, don't they.

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    Default Re: The West's Deal with the Devil

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    Targlish, you do know that Eric Margolis is not Muslim right? Other people surely have hands in the current situation and condemns is given where it is earned. Whether it is the "justices" of Saudi Arabia or ex-KGB Vladimir Putin running a country. I would not call the United States supporting a government that systematically killed more people than Hitler "melodrama".
    What's your point about Putin? Going back to the Cold War and risk eliminating planet earth with nuclear weapons? You guys are so frantic to post anything critical you stop thinking. I know where you guys come from being at war with everybody else is the preferred solution (I read a story about 70,000 Arab tribesmen dying in battle because a camel had trespassed into a neighboring tribe's land) but the reality is we need alliances more than we need enemies. Sometimes alliances are uneasy. There is only one country in the world where Putin is popular and that's Russia. Nonetheless, we need normal foreign relations with the man.
    Last edited by Giaour; 24th November 2007 at 17:22.

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    Default Re: The West's Deal with the Devil

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    Targlish, you do know that Eric Margolis is not Muslim right? Other people surely have hands in the current situation and condemns is given where it is earned. Whether it is the "justices" of Saudi Arabia or ex-KGB Vladimir Putin running a country. I would not call the United States supporting a government that systematically killed more people than Hitler "melodrama".
    The nature of the world we live in requires us to engage and mutualy diplomatically respect each other, nation-to-nation.

    We might not agree on how our 'friends' (and I use that word loosely) operate or how they conduct their internal politics, but they are our friends and provided that there is no threat (in whatever form) to the security of OUR lands or people then the status quo remains.

    You use the word "support" as if it is a lifeline. The linkages may be strong but they are not permanent....relationships change, sometimes for the better, sometimes for the worse. Thats a fact of life even on an individual basis. It has the same application in international politics.

    The real issue for you lumumba is that you somehow think that you want to champion the 'resource stripping WEST'(The West.. The West.. save me from 'The West') and make them out to be the equivilent of the Villian in a panotmime. In doing so you ignore the reality of international economics. There are TWO sides to every transaction and you have to consider the nature of that transaction to properly understand WHY it occurs in the first place.

    So for example, the Americans buy Oil from the UAE. The UAE build gigantic shopping malls and 6 lane highways and hotels in the shape of waves and all manner of structures and proclaim them an "oasis in the desert". They could not have done so without PetroDollars.........But I ask you, has the UAE poplulation not benefited from this? Were they no paid for their labour? Do they not enjoy use of these facilities???

    The Islamic catch-cry of "The West" or anyone elses for that matter, whether it be Robert Mugabe and his "Imperialist West" or any other similar despotic statement is nothing more than a poor excuse for a lack of real understanding of global trade between nations and failing to accept the reality of the world - that the economically strong are also militarily strong because they can afford to be so, thus you have the 'power' quotient.

    Look at Islamic History. At what stage did Muhammed decide to attack the Jewish tribes??? He was patient and use the 'opportunity' to politically push his agenda.So before you start trying to decry any nation about being 'opportunistic' consider Islamic History and ask yourself would not the Islamic Nation be the same opportunists?? And dont respond with ideology, because we all know that corruption and injustice hide behind ideology.

    Consider this also. If a nation which is resource rich does not wish to trade with another nation for whatever reason, there is no compulsion to do so. But utimately they just create a 'middle man'. For example lets say Iran does not wish to sell Oil to America, they instead sell it to Jordan who then sell it to America for a profit. So what... is.. the .. point.

    Now if your talking about the 'value' of these resources, how much is paid and is it 'fair'... then you are getting into an ideological 'debate',
    'argument', 'statement' etc. You have to recognise that market forces will 'make' the price and the seller either accepts this or sells to someone else. If the 'value' recieved for the resources is 'low' then the social and nationalistic outcome of the trade must be properly managed.

    The 'corruption' and unfair practices you blame the West for are just Rhetoric. By doing so you release the nation which received the monetary value of the trade from any responsibility for what they DO with it.

    It is easy for a despotic or corrupt person to KEEP a large amount of this these trade funds for themselves. That is a matter for the nation engaged in the trading. But you cannot blame "The West" for that, it is not their responsibility to ensure that the trading nation does what is right with what it receives. Otherwise, you would be yelling about how "The West" interferes in the internal politics of nations.............

    So you can't have the cake.... and eat it lumumba, as much as you want to.

    Recognise that this is the world we live in. If you want to play the 'blame game' then I can't stop you, but it is entirely unproductive.

    I am currently reading a book about Islamic-Economics. It's interesting but I can see why the principals could not be applied in a 'globalised' world with any effect. Perhaps Islamic-Economics did not have an Adam Smith when the principals were drafted. In any case, they are an interesting part of an 'ideology', one which the majority of the world currently rejects.

    Salaam.

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    Default Re: The West's Deal with the Devil

    Quote Originally Posted by Giaour View Post
    And the honor for the first true genocide in modern history goes to Turkey...Hitler was overheard speaking about the liquidation of the Armenians as an example of a country taking care of ethnics business and getting away with it because history doesn't judge the victors. He was really impressed with Turkey's action. I think the Eastern and Western hemispheres really complement one another in their politics, don't they.

    Fabrication

    full article   Expand this


    based on Speculative and biased propaganda - for genuine concerns Historically refer here. The amount of killings by the soviets are far above that of Hitler and the speculative and biased propaganda combined..

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    Quote Originally Posted by hasan View Post
    Fabrication

    The amount of killings by the soviets are far above that of Hitler and the speculative and biased propaganda combined..
    About the same number as those killed in the name of Islam (give or take) .....

    Wouldn't you agree? Or would you like to ask the Zarocastrian Persians what their views are?

    In all seriousness, what is to be gained by finger pointing and bringing these issues forward? Where is the benefit other than perhaps some self-rightous feeling perhaps of "thank Allah we are not like THOSE people".....

    What is it you expect to gain from this???

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    Quote Originally Posted by Targlish View Post
    About the same number as those killed in the name of Islam (give or take) .....

    Wouldn't you agree? Or would you like to ask the Zarocastrian Persians what their views are?

    In all seriousness, what is to be gained by finger pointing and bringing these issues forward? Where is the benefit other than perhaps some self-rightous feeling perhaps of "thank Allah we are not like THOSE people".....

    What is it you expect to gain from this???

    ignoring ascertainable facts hoping it would go away is easier than admiting to it isupose.
    Last edited by hasan; 25th November 2007 at 05:55.

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    Default Re: The West's Deal with the Devil

    The hypocrites can spin all they want but we know what happened in Armenia. 1.7 million bodies is a lot of corpses. The truth will come to the surface one way or another. It will be better for Turkey to release the documents and admit it. The Russians admitted the Soviet genocide and if anything it improved the status of the new Russia as a country that wants to break with the past.

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