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Thread: Jinn and Shooting Stars

  1. #31
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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Quote Originally Posted by Sameer Abdul Hadi View Post
    The author of the Quran displayed a typical, 7th century misperception of the true nature of meteorites. Allah does not misperceive his creation.

    How exaclty does the Quran grant a misconception of meterorites...have you figured that it wasnt talking litterally.
    How do you know?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sameer Abdul Hadi View Post
    allah can do whatever he wants with meteorites.
    So right after you say it's not literal, you talk about it as literal and say that God can do whatever he wants with meteors. So is it talking about meteors or not?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sameer Abdul Hadi View Post
    Oh by the way do you like music arnold?
    Sure.

  2. #32
    3 years in the deen Sameer Abdul Hadi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    How do you know?

    Again, I don't. My Belief is..The Qur'an uses hundreds of metaphors to describe things. All of them usually relate to some matter of science. Allah to ME, is never wrong. The Quran, is never wrong. I think it's just our lack of understanding that make it seem wrong, our lack to see the true meaning. Thats all. I cant change anyones understanding and depth.

    To understand the verses better, Ill have to bust out my Quran. So give me some time.

    As for the music...

    You seem pretty intelligent, so you might like this guy. Look up Immortal Technique. Then look for a song called "The 4th Branch"

    I can't upload for some reason Admin.
    Stick close to the true path.

  3. #33
    3 years in the deen Sameer Abdul Hadi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Oooooh, ok now i see your problem with those verses.

    Hmmm. Honestly, This is probably not talking literally about the shooting stars we know, but something that Allah uses to guard heaven. Or maybe the exact same thing that we know, but he used them to guard heaven. I believe they are the same thing, but where used the way Allah wanted. Weird to explain. lol

    Here's my analogy...You can use a pencil to write, but you can also stab someone with it. lol But its still a pencil
    Stick close to the true path.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Quote Originally Posted by Sameer Abdul Hadi View Post
    Oooooh, ok now i see your problem with those verses.

    Hmmm. Honestly, This is probably not talking literally about the shooting stars we know, but something that Allah uses to guard heaven.
    Then why does it say that we can see them? 15:18

    Quote Originally Posted by Sameer Abdul Hadi View Post
    Or maybe the exact same thing that we know, but he used them to guard heaven. I believe they are the same thing, but where used the way Allah wanted. Weird to explain. lol
    Yes, same exact thing, used in different ways. I agree. But the strangest part, is that it talks about the heavens being protected or guarded, and it seems to say that this is a visible sign that we can see, but in fact, the truth of what he saw was that it was actually a sign of the protection of the earth, not the heavens, as things that the earth bumps into, or even things that might actually be traveling through space, burn up upon entry into the earth's atmosphere, thereby protecting the earth

    Quote Originally Posted by Sameer Abdul Hadi View Post
    Here's my analogy...You can use a pencil to write, but you can also stab someone with it. lol But its still a pencil
    You are speaking of personal feelings. Isn't the truth supposed to be the main goal? Where do personal feelings fit into the truth?

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    "Ahh, so Allah fired meteors and continues to fire them, right? Why are they related to the stars? Why even mention the two in the same breath unless you thought they were related? "

    They are not and the tafseers differ. In Islam what binds us is the Quran, the narrations of the prophet and the consensus of the companions. So if the mufaseerend differ( and I have shown you they have) I take the stronger position.


    "No, I just said that you conflict with the dictionary, so therefore, you make up your own definitions."

    No I have not . Proof!



    "No, he said the stars have three purposes, and said nothing about three types. This is a little invention that you are trying to slip in. Besides, what is the difference between a star that guides and a star that gives beauty? None, so your theory can't work. It's clearly talking about one thing, the stars, and their three purposes."

    Clearly the arabs used the term "Najm" because of its appearance and not because of its chemical consituents. i.e. they were sources of light. The root of the word "Najm" also indicates that. So here Qatada is saying that we have three functions to the "stars" in refutation of the astrologers. You must understand the context of the statement and why he said it. Anyway his position is his personal opinion. The Quran also uses different terms so what is the issue?



    "Sure, and the stars are lamps. Same thing basically."

    I dont know what this implies.



    Where is SHIAAB in 67:5? And how many times is it used?

    It is the hadith and the Quran إِلاَّ مَنِ ٱسْتَرَقَ ٱلسَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُّبِينٌ

    (15:15-18)



    No, you're the angry bigoted person to even have to bring up a bitter personal comment. And look at how you think I'm a missionary.

    Sorry I stand corrected. A bigoted mystic missionary. Thanks for correcting me

    "Ridiculous."

    Yeah you are!




    "That's the way you've been trained."

    Yeah in the camps of Tora bora


    "..... I just don't know how you do it"

    well I see the diatribe from you and come to rational conclusions.


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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "Ahh, so Allah fired meteors and continues to fire them, right? Why are they related to the stars? Why even mention the two in the same breath unless you thought they were related? "

    They are not and the tafseers differ. In Islam what binds us is the Quran, the narrations of the prophet and the consensus of the companions. So if the mufaseerend differ( and I have shown you they have) I take the stronger position.
    I've showed you the Quran and clear narrations of the prophet, and tafsir to boot. How do you just ignore it and pretend like I've shown nothing?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "No, I just said that you conflict with the dictionary, so therefore, you make up your own definitions."

    No I have not . Proof!
    You don't get it. I'm not neccesarily saying you're wrong, I'm merely saying the clear fact that what you say contradicts the Arabic dictionary. Therefore, you arem writing your own dictionary. That's a fact. Maybe you giving the right definition, but if you conflict with the dictionary, then you are writing your own version.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "No, he said the stars have three purposes, and said nothing about three types. This is a little invention that you are trying to slip in. Besides, what is the difference between a star that guides and a star that gives beauty? None, so your theory can't work. It's clearly talking about one thing, the stars, and their three purposes."

    Clearly the arabs used the term "Najm" because of its appearance and not because of its chemical consituents. i.e. they were sources of light. The root of the word "Najm" also indicates that. So here Qatada is saying that we have three functions to the "stars" in refutation of the astrologers. You must understand the context of the statement and why he said it. Anyway his position is his personal opinion. The Quran also uses different terms so what is the issue?
    You tried to slip it in that it was talking about three different things, not one thing with three different purposes. Now it's one thing with three different purposes, but it's all only related to astrology. Does anybody have to wonder why I don't really trust people's explanations here?


    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "Sure, and the stars are lamps. Same thing basically."

    I dont know what this implies.
    Lamps, torches, basically the same thing.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    Where is SHIAAB in 67:5? And how many times is it used?

    It is the hadith and the Quran إِلاَّ مَنِ ٱسْتَرَقَ ٱلسَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُّبِينٌ

    (15:15-18)
    Where is it in 67:5? And if it's not in 67:5, which is what we were discussing, then why do you bring this word up?

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    "I've showed you the Quran and clear narrations of the prophet, and tafsir to boot. How do you just ignore it and pretend like I've shown nothing?"

    Which narrations? No you have shown nothing of the sort. THE PROPHET USED THE WORD SHIHAAB WHEN DESCRIBING METEROITES!

    "You don't get it. I'm not neccesarily saying you're wrong, I'm merely saying the clear fact that what you say contradicts the Arabic dictionary. Therefore, you arem writing your own dictionary. That's a fact. Maybe you giving the right definition, but if you conflict with the dictionary, then you are writing your own version."

    I do and you use a multilingual pocket online dictionary while I use an academic dictionary. I had already given you the reference in the other thread. Multilingual pocket online dictionaries are not exhaustive enough to discuss things especially when verbal roots are involved. DO YOU GET IT?


    "You tried to slip it in that it was talking about three different things, not one thing with three different purposes. Now it's one thing with three different purposes, but it's all only related to astrology. Does anybody have to wonder why I don't really trust people's explanations here?"

    No that is the context as there are pages and pages written on the commetary of Qatada in the classical books. I cant help it if your a "google professor"


    Oh yeah here it is again!

    إِلاَّ مَنِ ٱسْتَرَقَ ٱلسَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُّبِينٌ

    and I gave the reference. I cant help it if arabic is essential to discussions like this.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "I've showed you the Quran and clear narrations of the prophet, and tafsir to boot. How do you just ignore it and pretend like I've shown nothing?"

    Which narrations? No you have shown nothing of the sort. THE PROPHET USED THE WORD SHIHAAB WHEN DESCRIBING METEROITES!
    [quote]
    http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=72&tid=55549
    «وَالشَّرُّ لَيْسَ إِلَيْك»

    (And evil is not attributed to You (Allah).) It used to be that shooting stars (meteors) occurred before this, however it did not happen much, rather only occasionally. As was reported in the Hadith of Ibn `Abbas when he said, "While we were sitting with the Messenger of Allah a shooting star flashed in the sky. So the Prophet said,

    «مَا كُنْتُمْ تَقُولُونَ فِي هَذَا؟»

    (What did you all used to say about this) We replied, "We used to say that a great person has been born and a great person has died.'' The Prophet said,

    «لَيْسَ كَذَلِكَ، وَلَكِنَّ اللهَ إِذَا قَضَى الْأَمْرَ فِي السَّمَاء»

    (This is not so, rather whenever Allah decrees a matter in the heaven...)'' and then he went on to narrate the rest of the Hadith which we have already mentioned in its entirety in Surah Saba'. This is what caused them to seek the reason for this occurrence. So they set out searching in the east and the west. Then they found the Messenger of Allah reciting (the Qur'an) while leading his Companions in prayer. Thus, they knew that this Qur'an was the reason for the sky being guarded. Therefore, some among them believed in it and the others became more rebellious in their transgression. A discussion of this has preceded in a Hadith of Ibn `Abbas concerning Allah's statement in Surat Al-Ahqaf,

    [وَإِذْ صَرَفْنَآ إِلَيْكَ نَفَراً مِّنَ الْجِنِّ يَسْتَمِعُونَ الْقُرْءَانَ]

    (And (remember) when We sent towards you (Muhammad) a group of the Jinn (quietly) listening to the Qur'an.) (46:29) There is no doubt that when so many shooting stars began appearing in the sky, it horrified humans and Jinns alike. They were very disturbed and alarmed by it. They thought that it was the destruction of the world. As-Suddi said, "The sky was never guarded except if there was a Prophet in the earth or the religion of Allah was victorious and dominant in the earth.'' So the devils before the time of Muhammad had taken sitting stations for themselves in the heaven of this world and they would listen to the matters that occurred in the heaven. But when Allah sent Muhammad as a Prophet and Messenger, they were suddenly pelted one night (with the flaming, shooting stars). So the people of Ta'if were frightened because of this and they began to say, `The dwellers of the sky have been destroyed.' This was because they saw the severe fires in the sky and the shooting flames. They began freeing their servants and abandoning their luxuries. So `Abd Yalayl bin `Amr bin `Umayr said to them and he was referred to for judgement among them "Woe to you O people of Ta'if! Hold on to your wealth and look at these guiding stars in the sky.If you see them remaining in their place, then the dwellers of the sky have not been destroyed, rather this has happened because of Ibn Abi Kabshah (-- meaning Muhammad ). And if you look and see that you can no longer see these stars, then verily the dwellers of the sky have been destroyed.'' So, they looked and saw that the stars still remained, and thus, they kept their wealth. The devils also were frightened during that night. They went to Iblis and informed him of what happened to them. So he (Iblis) said, "Bring me a handful of dirt from every land so that I may smell it.'' So they brought it and he smelled it and said, "It is your friend in Makkah.'' Then he sent a group of seven Jinns to Makkah, and they found the Prophet of Allah standing in prayer in Al-Masjid Al-Haram while reciting the Qur'an. They drew near to him eager to hear the Qur'an, until their chests almost pressed against him. Then they accepted Islam and Allah revealed their matter to His Messenger . We have mentioned this chapter in its entirety in the first section of the Kitab As-Sirah with lengthy discussion. Allah knows best and unto Him is all praise and blessings.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "You don't get it. I'm not neccesarily saying you're wrong, I'm merely saying the clear fact that what you say contradicts the Arabic dictionary. Therefore, you arem writing your own dictionary. That's a fact. Maybe you giving the right definition, but if you conflict with the dictionary, then you are writing your own version."

    I do and you use a multilingual pocket online dictionary while I use an academic dictionary. I had already given you the reference in the other thread.
    Can you link it?


    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    Multilingual pocket online dictionaries are not exhaustive enough to discuss things especially when verbal roots are involved. DO YOU GET IT?
    Look, who are we kidding? You said the word had nothing to do with celestial objects at all, and yet the dictionary only gives two definitions, both of which are celestial objects. Am I supposed to believe that the dictionary is simply 100% wrong by giving the definition of planet and meteor? They got that completely 100% wrong? Pull it out of thin air? Completely their imagination? Pardon me while I don't believe you


    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "You tried to slip it in that it was talking about three different things, not one thing with three different purposes. Now it's one thing with three different purposes, but it's all only related to astrology. Does anybody have to wonder why I don't really trust people's explanations here?"

    No that is the context as there are pages and pages written on the commetary of Qatada in the classical books. I cant help it if your a "google professor"


    Oh yeah here it is again!

    إِلاَّ مَنِ ٱسْتَرَقَ ٱلسَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُّبِينٌ

    and I gave the reference. I cant help it if arabic is essential to discussions like this.
    Okay, so now it's in the context of astrology. So why did you try to make it out to be three different things or different kinds, rather than the same thing with three functions, and then, you turn around and reverse yourself on that, and now it IS talking about three purposes, not three kinds of something, but it is merely talking about astrology? Why didn't you say this in the first place? Because you're pulling anything you can out of your pocket without much regard to it's truth.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=72&tid=55549

    The first hadith was discussed and the prophet used the term Shihaab and the rest of the link has NO HADITH!

    Oh yeah my reference is the arabic dictionary of Zamakhshari. I am sure it is online but it is in arabic. The best work on arabic is in arabic. Why is that my problem?

    Get you arabic friends to translate and you will find all of what I have said.

    "Look, who are we kidding? You said the word had nothing to do with celestial objects at all, and yet the dictionary only gives two definitions, both of which are celestial objects. Am I supposed to believe that the dictionary is simply 100% wrong by giving the definition of planet and meteor? They got that completely 100% wrong? Pull it out of thin air? Completely their imagination? Pardon me while I don't believe you"

    I am still right. The Quran and the hadith calls meteroites Shihaab, torches ( a term in common with stars) and flaming missiles. The stars are called Nujuum and are also torches. See the difference? Anyway in the end the meteroite is described by ITS APPEARANCE IN ARABIC AND NOT BY ITS COMPOSITION, as vouched for in lisan al arab which is online by the way and other academic references. Not your online junk which do not even go into verbal roots and how the words are derived!

    The rest of your post is polemic rubbish!

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=72&tid=55549

    The first hadith was discussed and the prophet used the term Shihaab and the rest of the link has NO HADITH!

    Oh yeah my reference is the arabic dictionary of Zamakhshari. I am sure it is online but it is in arabic. The best work on arabic is in arabic. Why is that my problem?

    Get you arabic friends to translate and you will find all of what I have said.

    "Look, who are we kidding? You said the word had nothing to do with celestial objects at all, and yet the dictionary only gives two definitions, both of which are celestial objects. Am I supposed to believe that the dictionary is simply 100% wrong by giving the definition of planet and meteor? They got that completely 100% wrong? Pull it out of thin air? Completely their imagination? Pardon me while I don't believe you"

    I am still right. The Quran and the hadith calls meteroites Shihaab, torches ( a term in common with stars) and flaming missiles.
    Ummm, you originally said it didn't have anything to do with celestial objects at all. Need you be reminded of that? So now, you change your story, and it DOES have to do with celestial objects. And you wonder why I don't find you particularly trustworthy?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    The stars are called Nujuum and are also torches. See the difference? Anyway in the end the meteroite is described by ITS APPEARANCE IN ARABIC AND NOT BY ITS COMPOSITION, as vouched for in lisan al arab which is online by the way and other academic references. Not your online junk which do not even go into verbal roots and how the words are derived!
    What is the exact word in 67:5? Is it Shihaab or Nujuum? Does 67:5 talk about flaming missiles adorning heavens for beauty or is it talking about the stars called Nujuum when it talks about them adorning the lowest heaven??

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    The rest of your post is polemic rubbish!
    Naturally,, when you don't have an answer, it's polemic rubbish. An overused excuse. You're not a particularly honest character are you.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    "Ummm, you originally said it didn't have anything to do with celestial objects at all. Need you be reminded of that? So now, you change your story, and it DOES have to do with celestial objects. And you wonder why I don't find you particularly trustworthy?"

    What DOES have to do with celestial bodies? You haven't even understood what I posted! You'r a shmuck arent you? lol!

    "What is the exact word in 67:5? Is it Shihaab or Nujuum? Does 67:5 talk about flaming missiles adorning heavens for beauty or is it talking about the stars called Nujuum when it talks about them adorning the lowest heaven??"

    The word Shihab is used for the Jin. So there you go. I have been trying to tell you that for the last few posts. I understand a bit slow. It's ok I will be patient with you lol!

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "Ummm, you originally said it didn't have anything to do with celestial objects at all. Need you be reminded of that? So now, you change your story, and it DOES have to do with celestial objects. And you wonder why I don't find you particularly trustworthy?"

    What DOES have to do with celestial bodies? You haven't even understood what I posted! You'r a shmuck arent you? lol!
    Clearly the arabs used the term "Najm" because of its appearance and not because of its chemical consituents. i.e. they were sources of light. The root of the word "Najm" also indicates that. So here Qatada is saying that we have three functions to the "stars" in refutation of the astrologers.
    I am still right. The Quran and the hadith calls meteroites Shihaab, torches ( a term in common with stars) and flaming missiles.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "What is the exact word in 67:5? Is it Shihaab or Nujuum? Does 67:5 talk about flaming missiles adorning heavens for beauty or is it talking about the stars called Nujuum when it talks about them adorning the lowest heaven??"

    The word Shihab is used for the Jin. So there you go. I have been trying to tell you that for the last few posts. I understand a bit slow. It's ok I will be patient with you lol!
    So what word is used for stars in 67:5? Shihaab or Nujuum? What word is used for the stars in 37:6? Or, 72:8?

  13. #43
    3 years in the deen Sameer Abdul Hadi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Arnold,

    thanks for replying.

    I agree. But the strangest part, is that it talks about the heavens being protected or guarded, and it seems to say that this is a visible sign that we can see, but in fact, the truth of what he saw was that it was actually a sign of the protection of the earth, not the heavens, as things that the earth bumps into, or even things that might actually be traveling through space, burn up upon entry into the earth's atmosphere, thereby protecting the earth
    I believe this. Allah used the shooting stars as mentioned in this verse, like this only this one instance. I do not think they actually guard heaven in a literal sense. The Quran has many great mysteries, and this is another. I cannot really explain this in full detail due to my limited knowledge.
    You are speaking of personal feelings. Isn't the truth supposed to be the main goal? Where do personal feelings fit into the truth?
    I was trying to portray the meteorites as the pencil. No feelings really.

    regards
    Stick close to the true path.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Quote Originally Posted by Sameer Abdul Hadi View Post
    Arnold,

    thanks for replying.



    I believe this. Allah used the shooting stars as mentioned in this verse, like this only this one instance. I do not think they actually guard heaven in a literal sense. The Quran has many great mysteries, and this is another. I cannot really explain this in full detail due to my limited knowledge.


    I was trying to portray the meteorites as the pencil. No feelings really.

    regards

    Well, no point has been made by your post except the fact that you are a very honest individual. But that's nice too. Very refreshing.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    I said Qatada used the term Najm to refer to metorites NOT THE QURAN OR HADITH. So no confusion and no contradiction. I was trying to give you the context of Qatadah's view. That had nothing to do with the Quran or Hadith.

    By the way do you know who Qatadah is?!

    I repeat again the terms used to describe the metorites in the Quran are Shihaab, flaming missile and an Incandesent light ( Misbaah) which a common term that it shares with Nujum

    For most stars are incandesent lights, but not all incandescent lights are stars. Not all the lights in the sky are just stars. We have meteorites which adorn the earth to . No where in the Quran or the Hadith are the meteroites called Nujum. Ok?

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