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Thread: Jinn and Shooting Stars

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Ive removed it

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Thanks.
    1.4 billion people live under the poverty line - 1.25 USD per day. 20000 Africans die needlessly everyday due to AIDS, malaria and TB. 1.02 billion people do not have enough to eat. 3/4s of this are rural poor farmers who will also bear the brunt of global warming.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "How about Ibn Kathir? Do you think HE has his Arabic right?"

    Sure if you knew what he was talking about. The first verse talks about

    Blessed be He Who has placed the big stars in the heavens.)

    i.e. the Buruj.

    Now there is difference of opinion on what is implied by this (yes the principle again whether you like it or not you bigoted islamophobe!)

    So if you knew the arabic you would have also read this from the tafsir

    يذكر تعالى خلقه السماء في ارتفاعها، وما زينها به من الكواكب الثوابت والسيارات، لمن تأمل وكرر النظر فيما يرى من العجائب والآيات الباهرات، ما يحار نظره فيه، وبهذا قال مجاهد وقتادة: البروج ههنا هي الكواكب. (قلت): وهذا كقوله تبارك وتعالى:
    { تَبَارَكَ ٱلَّذِى جَعَلَ فِى ٱلسَّمَآءِ بُرُوجاً }
    [الفرقان: 61] الآية. ومنهم من قال: البروج هي منازل الشمس والقمر. وقال عطية العوفي: البروج ههنا هي قصور الحرس. وجعل الشهب حرساً لها من مردة الشياطين؛ لئلا يسمعوا إلى الملأ الأعلى، فمن تمرد وتقدم منهم لاستراق السمع، جاءه شهاب مبين فأتلفه، فربما يكون قد ألقى الكلمة التي سمعها قبل أن يدركه الشهاب إلى الذي هو دونه، فيأخذها الآخر، ويأتي بها إلى وليه، كما جاء مصرحاً به في الصحيح

    Note the bold terms. Most of the scholars think that the Buruj as per its meaning in relation to the context refers to the celestial bodies which is clearly implied in the verse and in the linguistics of the term.
    Oh, it's just celestial bodies, pay no attention to THIS "If any devil breaches it and advances hoping to listen, a clear "shooting star'' comes to him and destroys him."

    "Bull. Flaming barriers don't pursue or follow, or lie waiting in ambush. Bunk."

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    Eh? What are you on and can I have some. Really that is just pathetic. Why this anthropomorphic description of flames that lie in ambush?
    Because of this:
    072:009 Khan 'And verily, we used to sit there in stations, to (steal) a hearing, but any who listens now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.

    072:009 Maulana And we used to sit in some of the sitting-places thereof to steal a hearing. But he who tries to listen now finds a flame lying in wait for him:

    072:009 Pickthal And we used to sit on places (high) therein to listen. But he who listeneth now findeth a flame in wait for him;

    072:009 Rashad " `We used to sit there in order to spy. Anyone who listens is pursued by a powerful projectile.

    072:009 Sarwar We used to sit near by and try to listen to the heavens, but shooting flames now await those who try to do that.

    072:009 Shakir And that we used to sit in some of the sitting-places thereof to steal a hearing, but he who would (try to) listen now would find a flame lying in wait for him:

    072:009 Sherali `And we used to sit in some of its seats to listen. But whoso listens now finds a shooting star in ambush for him,

    072:009 Yusufali 'We used, indeed, to sit there in (hidden) stations, to (steal) a hearing; but any who listen now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.

    And this

    http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=72&tid=55549
    «وَالشَّرُّ لَيْسَ إِلَيْك»

    (And evil is not attributed to You (Allah).) It used to be that shooting stars (meteors) occurred before this, however it did not happen much, rather only occasionally. As was reported in the Hadith of Ibn `Abbas when he said, "While we were sitting with the Messenger of Allah a shooting star flashed in the sky. So the Prophet said,

    «مَا كُنْتُمْ تَقُولُونَ فِي هَذَا؟»

    (What did you all used to say about this) We replied, "We used to say that a great person has been born and a great person has died.'' The Prophet said,

    «لَيْسَ كَذَلِكَ، وَلَكِنَّ اللهَ إِذَا قَضَى الْأَمْرَ فِي السَّمَاء»

    (This is not so, rather whenever Allah decrees a matter in the heaven...)'' and then he went on to narrate the rest of the Hadith which we have already mentioned in its entirety in Surah Saba'. This is what caused them to seek the reason for this occurrence. So they set out searching in the east and the west. Then they found the Messenger of Allah reciting (the Qur'an) while leading his Companions in prayer. Thus, they knew that this Qur'an was the reason for the sky being guarded. Therefore, some among them believed in it and the others became more rebellious in their transgression. A discussion of this has preceded in a Hadith of Ibn `Abbas concerning Allah's statement in Surat Al-Ahqaf,

    [وَإِذْ صَرَفْنَآ إِلَيْكَ نَفَراً مِّنَ الْجِنِّ يَسْتَمِعُونَ الْقُرْءَانَ]

    (And (remember) when We sent towards you (Muhammad) a group of the Jinn (quietly) listening to the Qur'an.) (46:29) There is no doubt that when so many shooting stars began appearing in the sky, it horrified humans and Jinns alike. They were very disturbed and alarmed by it. They thought that it was the destruction of the world. As-Suddi said, "The sky was never guarded except if there was a Prophet in the earth or the religion of Allah was victorious and dominant in the earth.'' So the devils before the time of Muhammad had taken sitting stations for themselves in the heaven of this world and they would listen to the matters that occurred in the heaven. But when Allah sent Muhammad as a Prophet and Messenger, they were suddenly pelted one night (with the flaming, shooting stars). So the people of Ta'if were frightened because of this and they began to say, `The dwellers of the sky have been destroyed.' This was because they saw the severe fires in the sky and the shooting flames. They began freeing their servants and abandoning their luxuries. So `Abd Yalayl bin `Amr bin `Umayr said to them and he was referred to for judgement among them "Woe to you O people of Ta'if! Hold on to your wealth and look at these guiding stars in the sky.If you see them remaining in their place, then the dwellers of the sky have not been destroyed, rather this has happened because of Ibn Abi Kabshah (-- meaning Muhammad ). And if you look and see that you can no longer see these stars, then verily the dwellers of the sky have been destroyed.'' So, they looked and saw that the stars still remained, and thus, they kept their wealth. The devils also were frightened during that night. They went to Iblis and informed him of what happened to them. So he (Iblis) said, "Bring me a handful of dirt from every land so that I may smell it.'' So they brought it and he smelled it and said, "It is your friend in Makkah.'' Then he sent a group of seven Jinns to Makkah, and they found the Prophet of Allah standing in prayer in Al-Masjid Al-Haram while reciting the Qur'an. They drew near to him eager to hear the Qur'an, until their chests almost pressed against him. Then they accepted Islam and Allah revealed their matter to His Messenger . We have mentioned this chapter in its entirety in the first section of the Kitab As-Sirah with lengthy discussion. Allah knows best and unto Him is all praise and blessings.
    Shees and then some. This has Harry Potter beat hands down.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    Are you really this stupid?
    Not stupid enough to believe in the things I just posted.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    Allah just prevents the jin using flames. What is the big deal and where is the logical contradiction? Note again no meteorites.
    Yeah yeah, let's just water it down and generalize it in hopes it will just magically disappear.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post

    037:006 Khan Verily! We have adorned the near heaven with the stars (for beauty).

    So there you go we have stars in the sky. What is the problem? The Quran goes on to say in arabic


    037:007 Maulana And (there is) a safeguard against every rebellious devil.

    Which is a better translation. I agree. Where is the mention of the meteorites in the lowest heaven and where is the link that says the stars in the lowest heavens are barriers? In the arabic we have a clear "tafseel" with the verse

    إِنَّا زَيَّنَّا السَّمَآءَ الدُّنْيَا بِزِينَةٍ الْكَوَكِبِ - وَحِفْظاً مِّن كُلِّ شَيْطَـنٍ مَّارِدٍ - لاَّ يَسَّمَّعُونَ إِلَى الْمَلإِ الاٌّعْلَى وَيُقْذَفُونَ مِن كُلِّ جَانِبٍ - دُحُوراً وَلَهُمْ عَذابٌ وَاصِبٌ - إِلاَّ مَنْ خَطِفَ الْخَطْفَةَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ ثَاقِبٌ

    Allah is telling us that he had adorned the heavens with the Kawakib ( the arabic for planets really, could be stars)

    AND

    he has protected the highest heavens ( from other evidence too) from the evil Jin using flames.
    067:005 Khan And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps, and We have made such lamps (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin (devils), and have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire.

    067:005 Maulana And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps and We make them means of conjectures for the devils, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.

    067:005 Pickthal And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

    067:005 Rashad We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and guarded its borders with projectiles against the devils; we prepared for them a retribution in Hell.

    067:005 Sarwar We have decked the lowest heavens with torches. With these torches We have stoned the devils and We have prepared for them the torment of hell.

    067:005 Shakir And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps and We have made these missiles for the Shaitans, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.

    067:005 Sherali And verily, WE have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and WE have made them the means of driving away satans, and WE have prepared for them the punishment of the blazing Fire.

    067:005 Yusufali And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

    http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=67&tid=54476
    [إِنَّا زَيَّنَّا السَّمَآءَ الدُّنْيَا بِزِينَةٍ الْكَوَكِبِ - وَحِفْظاً مِّن كُلِّ شَيْطَـنٍ مَّارِدٍ - لاَّ يَسَّمَّعُونَ إِلَى الْمَلإِ الاٌّعْلَى وَيُقْذَفُونَ مِن كُلِّ جَانِبٍ - دُحُوراً وَلَهُمْ عَذابٌ وَاصِبٌ - إِلاَّ مَنْ خَطِفَ الْخَطْفَةَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ ثَاقِبٌ ]

    (Verily, We have adorned the near heaven with the stars (for beauty). And to guard against every rebellious devil. They cannot listen to the higher group (angels) for they are pelted from every side. Outcast, and theirs is a constant (or painful) torment. Except such as snatch away something by stealing, and they are pursued by a flaming fire of piercing brightness.) [37:6-7] Qatadah said, "These stars were only created for three purposes: Allah created them as adornment for the heaven (sky), as missiles for the devils and as signs for navigation. Therefore, whoever seeks to interpret any other meanings for them other than these, then verily he has spoken with his own opinion, he has lost his portion and burdened himself with that which he has no knowledge of.'' Ibn Jarir and Ibn Abi Hatim both recorded this statement.

    [وَلِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِرَبِّهِمْ عَذَابُ جَهَنَّمَ وَبِئْسَ الْمَصِيرُ - إِذَآ أُلْقُواْ فِيهَا سَمِعُواْ لَهَا شَهِيقًا وَهِىَ تَفُورُ - تَكَادُ تَمَيَّزُ مِنَ الغَيْظِ كُلَّمَا أُلْقِىَ فِيهَا فَوْجٌ سَأَلَهُمْ خَزَنَتُهَآ أَلَمْ يَأْتِكُمْ نَذِيرٌ - قَالُواْ بَلَى قَدْ جَآءَنَا نَذِيرٌ فَكَذَّبْنَا وَقُلْنَا مَا نَزَّلَ اللَّهُ مِن شَىْءٍ إِنْ أَنتُمْ إِلاَّ فِى ضَلَـلٍ كَبِيرٍ - وَقَالُواْ لَوْ كُنَّا نَسْمَعُ أَوْ نَعْقِلُ مَا كُنَّا فِى أَصْحَـبِ السَّعِيرِ - فَاعْتَرَفُواْ بِذَنبِهِمْ فَسُحْقًا لاًّصْحَـبِ السَّعِيرِ

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    No problem but you have to admit he is one attractive target. loool!
    Boy, you sure picked the wrong topic to argue. Others were smart enough to not even touch it.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    "Oh, it's just celestial bodies, pay no attention to THIS "If any devil breaches it and advances hoping to listen, a clear "shooting star'' comes to him and destroys him."

    Yet YOU PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE ARABIC. THE AYAH DOES NOT SAY THAT! GET ONE OF YOUR ARABIC FRIENDS TO TRANSLATE!

    "072:009 Khan 'And verily, we used to sit there in stations, to (steal) a hearing, but any who listens now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush."

    The arabic is وَأَنَّا لَمَسْنَا السَّمَآءَ فَوَجَدْنَـهَا مُلِئَتْ حَرَساً شَدِيداً وَشُهُباً .No mention of ambush only flames and "guardians"

    This is a better translation

    072:009 Sarwar We used to sit near by and try to listen to the heavens, but shooting flames now await those who try to do that

    Man I am really having fun with you. It helps when you know the arabic

    Ok now the hadiths

    The first one talks about the shooting star and the prophet replied

    لَيْسَ كَذَلِكَ، وَلَكِنَّ اللهَ إِذَا قَضَى الْأَمْرَ فِي السَّمَاء

    "It is not like that but if our Creator wills something in the heavens ( then it is) "

    Well the rest of the narration is this and it is in Bukhari. All the narrations use the term SHIHAB and not KAWKAB. So yet again this a point against you and not for you.

    The jinn are chased with a Shihab and not a star. Here is the hadith

    أن الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم كان في أصحابه يوماً، فرُمي بشهاب فاستنار فقال: ما كنتم تقولون لهذا في الجاهلية؟ فقالوا: كنا نقول إذا رُمي به: إنه يولد عظيم أو يموت عظيم -يعني: من الناس، ملك أو رئيس أو ما أشبه ذلك- فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: إنه لا يُرمى بها لموت أحد ولا لحياته؛ ولكن مسترق السمع إذا ركب بعضُهم بعضاً يسترقون السمع رُمي بها، فربما أدركه الشهاب قبل أن يلقيها إلى وليه فقتله، وربما أذهب عقله فخبله -فيصبح ليس له عقل- وربما أخطأه

    الشهاب DOES NOT MEAN A CELESTIAL BODY!

    then

    067:005 Pickthal And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.


    Ok where does this imply that the celestial bodies are mixed up with meteorites? Note the word AND.

    "Qatadah said, "These stars were only created for three purposes: Allah created them as adornment for the heaven (sky), as missiles for the devils and as signs for navigation. Therefore, whoever seeks to interpret any other meanings for them other than these, then verily he has spoken with his own opinion, he has lost his portion and burdened himself with that which he has no knowledge of.'' Ibn Jarir and Ibn Abi Hatim both recorded this statement"

    Sure Allah has made three functions for what are burning bodies. The stars which act as celestial bodies and guides for navigation and the Shihab which are burning bodies ) that prevent the Shayateen from getting information. This is the opinion of Qatada and not a narration of the prophet. We have other scholars who think that celestial bodies are different from the narrations I mentioned.

    The point is this. The language does not give you the allowance to say that our prophet mixed up the notion of celestial bodies and meteorites.

    Oh yeah the harry potter thing, well done with the mocking. To bad it gets you no where! It still is logically possible that the jinn are chased with flaming bodies ( and the hadith (not the Quran) indicates that they are meteroites)

    So I say again. The Quran HAS NO MENTION OF METEORITES AND THE HADITH CLEARLY DIFFERENTIATES.

    Why dont you go and learn some arabic. Maybe then you can be a bit of a challenge!
    Last edited by Alshami; 28th July 2007 at 16:11.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "Oh, it's just celestial bodies, pay no attention to THIS "If any devil breaches it and advances hoping to listen, a clear "shooting star'' comes to him and destroys him."

    Yet YOU PAY NO ATTENTION TO THE ARABIC. THE AYAH DOES NOT SAY THAT! GET ONE OF YOUR ARABIC FRIENDS TO TRANSLATE!

    "072:009 Khan 'And verily, we used to sit there in stations, to (steal) a hearing, but any who listens now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush."

    The arabic is وَأَنَّا لَمَسْنَا السَّمَآءَ فَوَجَدْنَـهَا مُلِئَتْ حَرَساً شَدِيداً وَشُهُباً .No mention of ambush only flames and "guardians"

    This is a better translation

    072:009 Sarwar We used to sit near by and try to listen to the heavens, but shooting flames now await those who try to do that

    Man I am really having fun with you. It helps when you know the arabic

    So what is a shooting flame that is in the sky (67:5) and is visible to us (as per 15:18)?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    Ok now the hadiths

    The first one talks about the shooting star and the prophet replied

    لَيْسَ كَذَلِكَ، وَلَكِنَّ اللهَ إِذَا قَضَى الْأَمْرَ فِي السَّمَاء

    "It is not like that but if our Creator wills something in the heavens ( then it is) "

    Well the rest of the narration is this and it is in Bukhari.
    Yes, everybody just ignore the rest of the tafsir. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. Nothing to see here. Turn away.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    All the narrations use the term SHIHAB and not KAWKAB. So yet again this a point against you and not for you.

    The jinn are chased with a Shihab and not a star. Here is the hadith

    أن الرسول صلى الله عليه وسلم كان في أصحابه يوماً، فرُمي بشهاب فاستنار فقال: ما كنتم تقولون لهذا في الجاهلية؟ فقالوا: كنا نقول إذا رُمي به: إنه يولد عظيم أو يموت عظيم -يعني: من الناس، ملك أو رئيس أو ما أشبه ذلك- فقال رسول الله صلى الله عليه وسلم: إنه لا يُرمى بها لموت أحد ولا لحياته؛ ولكن مسترق السمع إذا ركب بعضُهم بعضاً يسترقون السمع رُمي بها، فربما أدركه الشهاب قبل أن يلقيها إلى وليه فقتله، وربما أذهب عقله فخبله -فيصبح ليس له عقل- وربما أخطأه

    الشهاب DOES NOT MEAN A CELESTIAL BODY!
    http://dictionary.sakhr.com/idrisidi...e1%d4%e5%c7%c8

    كَوْكَب
    planet

    نَيْزَك
    meteor

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    then

    067:005 Pickthal And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.


    Ok where does this imply that the celestial bodies are mixed up with meteorites? Note the word AND.
    When it talks about beautifying the the heaven's with lamps, it is ALWAYS talking about the stars. so it says that they beautify the sky AND they were made as missiles. And this is precisely what the tafsir said, and if we're not sure, we ask the prophet and he clearly explained what I am saying. How do you just whisk these things away? This means that either the star itself takes off after a jinn, or fires a piece of itself at the jinn. As far as I can tell, if this projectile was fired at the speed of light from some of these stars, it would take hundreds if not thousands of years to reach our atmosphere.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    Qatadah said, "These stars were only created for three purposes: Allah created them as adornment for the heaven (sky), as missiles for the devils and as signs for navigation. Therefore, whoever seeks to interpret any other meanings for them other than these, then verily he has spoken with his own opinion, he has lost his portion and burdened himself with that which he has no knowledge of.'' Ibn Jarir and Ibn Abi Hatim both recorded this statement"
    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    Sure Allah has made three functions for what are burning bodies. The stars which act as celestial bodies and guides for navigation and the Shihab which are burning bodies ) that prevent the Shayateen from getting information.
    They are ALL burning and the Quran got that part right, which is why it always refers to them as lamps. This was a very poor attempt. For instance, why is the stars that give beauty different from the ones that give navigation?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    This is the opinion of Qatada and not a narration of the prophet. We have other scholars who think that celestial bodies are different from the narrations I mentioned.
    I don't want to see something from a scholar who lived after we discovered the true nature of meteorites, as obviously they will scramble around best as they can to hide the error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    The point is this. The language does not give you the allowance to say that our prophet mixed up the notion of celestial bodies and meteorites.
    What?


    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    Oh yeah the harry potter thing, well done with the mocking. To bad it gets you no where! It still is logically possible that the jinn are chased with flaming bodies ( and the hadith (not the Quran) indicates that they are meteroites)

    So I say again. The Quran HAS NO MENTION OF METEORITES AND THE HADITH CLEARLY DIFFERENTIATES.

    Why dont you go and learn some arabic. Maybe then you can be a bit of a challenge!
    Well, you don't agree with the Arabic dictionary. so were you just trying to pull a fast one knowing that I don't know Arabic? Besides, you know Arabic better than Ibn Kathir? I smell a little game of taqiyyah going on.
    Last edited by Arnold; 28th July 2007 at 17:40.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    The funniest part that I've noticed, is when the verses aren't good, it is demanded that we pay attention to the exegetes. But when the exegetes isn't good, it is demanded that we pay attention to the verses, and the exegetes is suddenly treated as merely someone's opinion. It's the shell game, where the rules keep changing on the fly depending upon what is needed.

    Last edited by Arnold; 28th July 2007 at 18:14.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars



    allakazam !!! presto !!! Stars?? What stars?? No stars, just you're imagination. Now stop with these silly irrelevent things. Forget about them. SILUNS!!! ((snicker, snicker))
    Last edited by Arnold; 28th July 2007 at 18:29.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Thanks for the images. Nothing but typical christian like propoganda to edge yourself on. Well good for you, but your post is useless.

    "So what is a shooting flame that is in the sky (67:5) and is visible to us (as per 15:18)?"

    The Quran talks about flames and the Hadith talk about a shooting star (meteorite) i.e. a Shihab and not a planet! or a star that is in orbit


    "Yes, everybody just ignore the rest of the tafsir. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. Nothing to see here. Turn away"

    Yes I am paying no attention to you here lol! Thanks for that



    ".....planet

    نَيْزَك
    meteor "

    I have no idea why you posted this. The dictionary is the be all and end all of the arabic language? Strange


    "When it talks about beautifying the the heaven's with lamps, it is ALWAYS talking about the stars. so it says that they beautify the sky AND they were made as missiles"

    No that is your interpretation and not the verses. The Quran is saying that he has created a Siraj the adorns the heaven AND he has flames that stop the Jinn

    So sorry not working!


    "means that either the star itself takes off after a jinn, or fires a piece of itself at the jinn. As far as I can tell, if this projectile was fired at the speed of light from some of these stars, it would take hundreds if not thousands of years to reach our atmosphere. "

    Finally a good point I will look into .


    The rest of your stuff is just junk!

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    Thanks for the images. Nothing but typical christian like propoganda to edge yourself on. Well good for you, but your post is useless.

    "So what is a shooting flame that is in the sky (67:5) and is visible to us (as per 15:18)?"

    The Quran talks about flames and the Hadith talk about a shooting star (meteorite) i.e. a Shihab and not a planet! or a star that is in orbit
    So do you think meteors pursue anything or that the earth bumps into them while orbiting the sun? Are they fired at anything?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "Yes, everybody just ignore the rest of the tafsir. Pay no attention to that man behind the curtain. Nothing to see here. Turn away"

    Yes I am paying no attention to you here lol! Thanks for that



    ".....planet

    نَيْزَك
    meteor "

    I have no idea why you posted this. The dictionary is the be all and end all of the arabic language? Strange
    Well, i guess you write your own dictionary to suit your needs. Hey, whatever floats your boat I suppose.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "When it talks about beautifying the the heaven's with lamps, it is ALWAYS talking about the stars. so it says that they beautify the sky AND they were made as missiles"

    No that is your interpretation and not the verses. The Quran is saying that he has created a Siraj the adorns the heaven AND he has flames that stop the Jinn

    So sorry not working!
    No, it says, "and we have made them as", which means it is referring to the first object of the sentence, not to a second one. so this doesn't work. Let's look at 8 transalations

    067:005 Khan And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps, and We have made such lamps (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin (devils), and have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire.

    067:005 Maulana And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps and We make them means of conjectures for the devils, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.

    067:005 Pickthal And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

    067:005 Rashad We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and guarded its borders with projectiles against the devils; we prepared for them a retribution in Hell.

    067:005 Sarwar We have decked the lowest heavens with torches. With these torches We have stoned the devils and We have prepared for them the torment of hell.

    067:005 Shakir And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps and We have made these missiles for the Shaitans, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.

    067:005 Sherali And verily, WE have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and WE have made them the means of driving away satans, and WE have prepared for them the punishment of the blazing Fire.

    067:005 Yusufali And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

    I don't know how you could think that this is not clear.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "means that either the star itself takes off after a jinn, or fires a piece of itself at the jinn. As far as I can tell, if this projectile was fired at the speed of light from some of these stars, it would take hundreds if not thousands of years to reach our atmosphere. "

    Finally a good point I will look into .


    The rest of your stuff is just junk!
    Oh come on, it's not junk at all, it's the simplest and most likely interpretation. There's only one problem with it, and that's the odd, completely non intuitive discovery of science about what these things really are. Who could have possibly guessed? I wouldn't in a million years. If we were discussing this a few hundred years ago, we wouldn't even be arguing about this.

  11. #26
    3 years in the deen Sameer Abdul Hadi's Avatar
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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Arnold...

    What exactly is your point. I would like to know?

    Are you saying that islam is full of crap with this post?

    Please i seriously don't see what you want me to see
    Stick close to the true path.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    "So do you think meteors pursue anything or that the earth bumps into them while orbiting the sun? Are they fired at anything?"

    Allah during the time of the prophet sent objects that burnt when the entered the earths atmosphere ( meteors) to ward off the Jinn who listened to the angels as they descended into the lowest heavens ( hence the refutation of the speed of light thing). This is according to the hadith. This is not a continuous thing but only isolated upto the time of the prophet, as far as I know. Now that still is logically possible as it is a matter of the unseen.

    "Well, i guess you write your own dictionary to suit your needs. Hey, whatever floats your boat I suppose."

    Now that is just stupid. You look up two words and think you have made an exhaustive analysis of the arabic vocabulary.

    And finally....

    067:005 Rashad We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and guarded its borders with projectiles against the devils; we prepared for them a retribution in Hell

    EVEN IN THE TRANSLATIONS YOU PROVIDED you can read it in TWO ways. In principle when using the conjunction "and" you have separate information. Anyway lets give it to you. The word in this ayah is "Misbaah" a "torch" which can have many subsets. As Qatada said three types. Those that guide ( not all stars are used in navigation even today) those that are in the sky ( which is the larger set of stars) and the "shooting stars" what the Quran gives IN A SPECIFIC NAME ie SHIAAB. In other words the term is descriptive referring to the light emitted like a "torch"

    So yet again the classification on its own shows that they were treated as DIFFERENT TYPES!


    "Oh come on, it's not junk at all, it's the simplest and most likely interpretation. There's only one problem with it, and that's the odd, completely non intuitive discovery of science about what these things really are. Who could have possibly guessed? I wouldn't in a million years. If we were discussing this a few hundred years ago, we wouldn't even be arguing about this."

    An emotional plea from a bigoted missionary. Sorry that is how I see it and it adds nothing. Simple junk! again

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sameer Abdul Hadi View Post
    Arnold...

    What exactly is your point. I would like to know?

    Are you saying that islam is full of crap with this post?

    Please i seriously don't see what you want me to see
    The author of the Quran displayed a typical, 7th century misperception of the true nature of meteorites. Allah does not misperceive his creation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "So do you think meteors pursue anything or that the earth bumps into them while orbiting the sun? Are they fired at anything?"

    Allah during the time of the prophet sent objects that burnt when the entered the earths atmosphere ( meteors) to ward off the Jinn who listened to the angels as they descended into the lowest heavens ( hence the refutation of the speed of light thing).
    Ahh, so Allah fired meteors and continues to fire them, right? Why are they related to the stars? Why even mention the two in the same breath unless you thought they were related? We all know why they used to be called "shooting stars", and there's tafsir that calls them this as well, and an article on a respected Muslim website that also agrees that the Quran is referring to shooting stars.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    This is according to the hadith. This is not a continuous thing but only isolated upto the time of the prophet, as far as I know. Now that still is logically possible as it is a matter of the unseen.
    Maybe the Jinn might be, but not meteorites that we can see (15:18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "Well, i guess you write your own dictionary to suit your needs. Hey, whatever floats your boat I suppose."

    Now that is just stupid. You look up two words and think you have made an exhaustive analysis of the arabic vocabulary.
    No, I just said that you conflict with the dictionary, so therefore, you make up your own definitions.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    And finally....

    067:005 Rashad We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and guarded its borders with projectiles against the devils; we prepared for them a retribution in Hell

    EVEN IN THE TRANSLATIONS YOU PROVIDED you can read it in TWO ways. In principle when using the conjunction "and" you have separate information. Anyway lets give it to you. The word in this ayah is "Misbaah" a "torch" which can have many subsets. As Qatada said three types. Those that guide ( not all stars are used in navigation even today) those that are in the sky ( which is the larger set of stars)
    No, he said the stars have three purposes, and said nothing about three types. This is a little invention that you are trying to slip in. Besides, what is the difference between a star that guides and a star that gives beauty? None, so your theory can't work. It's clearly talking about one thing, the stars, and their three purposes.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    and the "shooting stars" what the Quran gives IN A SPECIFIC NAME ie SHIAAB. In other words the term is descriptive referring to the light emitted like a "torch"
    Sure, and the stars are lamps. Same thing basically.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    So yet again the classification on its own shows that they were treated as DIFFERENT TYPES!
    Where is SHIAAB in 67:5? And how many times is it used?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "Oh come on, it's not junk at all, it's the simplest and most likely interpretation. There's only one problem with it, and that's the odd, completely non intuitive discovery of science about what these things really are. Who could have possibly guessed? I wouldn't in a million years. If we were discussing this a few hundred years ago, we wouldn't even be arguing about this."

    An emotional plea from a bigoted missionary. Sorry that is how I see it and it adds nothing. Simple junk! again
    No, you're the angry bigoted person to even have to bring up a bitter personal comment. And look at how you think I'm a missionary. It boggles your mind that a regular reasonable person can see big holes in the Quran, so you tell yourself that the person is a missionary or islamophobe to cure this dlilemma. Ridiculous. That's the way you've been trained. You've been trained to think that no rational person can find fault with the Quran, so therefore, anybody that does, has a missionary agenda. I just don't know how you do it.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    The author of the Quran displayed a typical, 7th century misperception of the true nature of meteorites. Allah does not misperceive his creation.

    How exaclty does the Quran grant a misconception of meterorites...have you figured that it wasnt talking litterally. allah can do whatever he wants with meteorites.

    Oh by the way do you like music arnold?(thats just a normal question, no wit)
    Stick close to the true path.

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