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Thread: Jinn and Shooting Stars

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    Default Jinn and Shooting Stars

    I was reading an Islamic website, when I ran into something very curious.

    http://thetruereligion.org/modules/w...p?articleid=55

    Invitation to Islam, Issue 4, January 1998

    However, upon the Prophet's arrival the heavens were guarded intensely by the Angels, and any Jinn who tried to listen was attacked by meteors (shooting stars):

    "And We have guarded it (the heavens) from every accursed devil, except one who is able to snatch a hearing and he is pursued by a brightly burning flame"
    (Surah Al-Hijr 15:18)
    I was amazed. I thought, "don't these people know what meteors really are? So i rearched it to see if the Quran is really telling us this. Here's what I came up with

    015.017
    YUSUFALI: And (moreover) We have guarded them from every cursed devil:
    PICKTHAL: And We have guarded it from every outcast devil,
    SHAKIR: And We guard it against every accursed Shaitan,

    015.018
    YUSUFALI: But any that gains a hearing by stealth, is pursued by a flaming fire, bright (to see).
    PICKTHAL: Save him who stealeth the hearing, and them doth a clear flame pursue.
    SHAKIR: But he who steals a hearing, so there follows him a visible flame.

    So here, it looks like this is a flame that we can see and that it follows or pursues the Jinn, not bumps into them. So then I checked out Ibn Kathir for further tafsir qualification.

    http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=15&tid=26874
    Blessed be He Who has placed the big stars in the heavens.) [25:61] `Atiyah Al-`Awfi said: "Buruj here refers to sentinel fortresses.'' He made the "shooting stars'' to guard it against the evil devils who try to listen to information conveyed at the highest heights. If any devil breaches it and advances hoping to listen, a clear "shooting star'' comes to him and destroys him.
    OMG, it's true. Shooting stars chase the Jinn. This is a very bad, and yet a very understandable blunder, as nobody in the 7th century understood what meteors were and they errantly associated them with stars, whether they be the stars themselves, or something the stars fire across the night canopy when the Jinn get too close. So I figured I better look for other verses like it for further clarification. I couldn't believe it. I found many.

    037.006
    YUSUFALI: We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,-
    PICKTHAL: Lo! We have adorned the lowest heaven with an ornament, the planets;
    SHAKIR: Surely We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment, the stars,

    037.007
    YUSUFALI: (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits,
    PICKTHAL: With security from every froward devil.
    SHAKIR: And (there is) a safeguard against every rebellious Shaitan.

    037.008
    YUSUFALI: (So) they should not strain their ears in the direction of the Exalted Assembly but be cast away from every side,
    PICKTHAL: They cannot listen to the Highest Chiefs for they are pelted from every side,
    SHAKIR: They cannot listen to the exalted assembly and they are thrown at from every side,

    037.009
    YUSUFALI: Repulsed, for they are under a perpetual penalty,
    PICKTHAL: Outcast, and theirs is a perpetual torment;
    SHAKIR: Being driven off, and for them is a perpetual chastisement,

    037.010
    YUSUFALI: Except such as snatch away something by stealth, and they are pursued by a flaming fire, of piercing brightness.
    PICKTHAL: Save him who snatcheth a fragment, and there pursueth him a piercing flame.
    SHAKIR: Except him who snatches off but once, then there follows him a brightly shining flame.

    And again, it seems to suggest that these things are bright and therefore bright to us, which means we can see them. Definitely sounds exactly like meteors to me. What else is in the sky can we see, that gives the optical illusion that they fly across the sky as if it is pursuing something? Nothing else fits that bill.

    So we check for tafsir again.

    (6. Verily, We have adorned the near heaven with the stars.) (7. And to guard against every rebellious Shaytan.) (8. They cannot listen to the higher group for they are pelted from every side.) (9. Outcast, and theirs is a constant torment.) (10. Except such as snatch away something by stealing, and they are pursued by a flaming fire of piercing brightness.)

    http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=37&tid=43908

    Allah tells us that He has adorned the lowest heaven with the heavenly bodies for those among the people of the earth who look at it. The stars and planets in the sky give light to the people of earth, as Allah says:

    [وَلَقَدْ زَيَّنَّا السَّمَآءَ الدُّنْيَا بِمَصَـبِيحَ وَجَعَلْنَـهَا رُجُوماً لِّلشَّيَـطِينِ وَأَعْتَدْنَا لَهُمْ عَذَابَ السَّعِيرِ ]

    (And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps, and We have made such lamps (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin, and have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire.) (67:5),

    [وَلَقَدْ جَعَلْنَا فِى السَّمَاءِ بُرُوجًا وَزَيَّنَّـهَا لِلنَّـظِرِينَ - وَحَفِظْنَـهَا مِن كُلِّ شَيْطَـنٍ رَّجِيمٍ - إِلاَّ مَنِ اسْتَرَقَ السَّمْعَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ مُّبِينٌ ]

    (And indeed, We have put the big stars in the heaven and We beautified it for the beholders. And We have guarded it from every outcast Shaytan. Except him who steals the hearing then he is pursued by a clear flaming fire.) (15:16-18). And Allah says here:

    [وَحِفْظاً]

    (And to guard) meaning, to protect as it should be protected,

    [مِّن كُلِّ شَيْطَـنٍ مَّارِدٍ]

    (against every rebellious Shaytan. ) means, every insolent and impudent devil, when he wants to eavesdrop (on news in the heavens), a piercing fire comes and burns him. Allah, may He be glorified, says:

    [لاَّ يَسَّمَّعُونَ إِلَى الْمَلإِ الاٌّعْلَى]

    (They cannot listen to the higher group) meaning, they cannot reach the higher group -- which refers to the heavens and the angels in them -- when they speak of what has been revealed by Allah of His Laws and decrees. We have already mentioned this when explaining the Hadiths quoted when we discussed the Ayah,
    So now, Ibn Kathir has pointed me to 67:5. This just gets more and more convincing as to what that invitation to islam article said as being true and the correct interpretation.

    067.005
    YUSUFALI: And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.
    PICKTHAL: And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

    And Ibn Kathir's comment here

    http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=67&tid=54476

    (5. And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps, and We have made such lamps (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin, and have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire.)

    (Verily, We have adorned the near heaven with the stars (for beauty). And to guard against every rebellious devil. They cannot listen to the higher group (angels) for they are pelted from every side. Outcast, and theirs is a constant (or painful) torment. Except such as snatch away something by stealing, and they are pursued by a flaming fire of piercing brightness.) [37:6-7] Qatadah said, "These stars were only created for three purposes: Allah created them as adornment for the heaven (sky), as missiles for the devils and as signs for navigation. Therefore, whoever seeks to interpret any other meanings for them other than these, then verily he has spoken with his own opinion, he has lost his portion and burdened himself with that which he has no knowledge of.'' Ibn Jarir and Ibn Abi Hatim both recorded this statement.

    [وَلِلَّذِينَ كَفَرُواْ بِرَبِّهِمْ عَذَابُ جَهَنَّمَ وَبِئْسَ الْمَصِيرُ - إِذَآ أُلْقُواْ فِيهَا سَمِعُواْ لَهَا شَهِيقًا وَهِىَ تَفُورُ - تَكَادُ تَمَيَّزُ مِنَ الغَيْظِ كُلَّمَا أُلْقِىَ فِيهَا فَوْجٌ سَأَلَهُمْ خَزَنَتُهَآ أَلَمْ يَأْتِكُمْ نَذِيرٌ - قَالُواْ بَلَى قَدْ جَآءَنَا نَذِيرٌ فَكَذَّبْنَا وَقُلْنَا مَا نَزَّلَ اللَّهُ مِن شَىْءٍ إِنْ أَنتُمْ إِلاَّ فِى ضَلَـلٍ كَبِيرٍ - وَقَالُواْ لَوْ كُنَّا نَسْمَعُ أَوْ نَعْقِلُ مَا كُنَّا فِى أَصْحَـبِ السَّعِيرِ - فَاعْتَرَفُواْ بِذَنبِهِمْ فَسُحْقًا لاًّصْحَـبِ السَّعِيرِ
    OMG. Then, I looked in the sura named after the Jinn, and found reference to this again.

    072.008
    YUSUFALI: 'And we pried into the secrets of heaven; but we found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires.
    PICKTHAL: And (the Jinn who had listened to the Qur'an said): We had sought the heaven but had found it filled with strong warders and meteors.
    SHAKIR: And that we sought to reach heaven, but we found it filled with strong guards and flaming stars.

    072.009
    YUSUFALI: 'We used, indeed, to sit there in (hidden) stations, to (steal) a hearing; but any who listen now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.
    PICKTHAL: And we used to sit on places (high) therein to listen. But he who listeneth now findeth a flame in wait for him;
    SHAKIR: And that we used to sit in some of the sitting-places thereof to steal a hearing, but he who would (try to) listen now would find a flame lying in wait for him:

    Ibn Kathir

    [وَأَنَّا لَمَسْنَا السَّمَآءَ فَوَجَدْنَـهَا مُلِئَتْ حَرَساً شَدِيداً وَشُهُباً - وَأَنَّا كُنَّا نَقْعُدُ مِنْهَا مَقَـعِدَ لِلسَّمْعِ فَمَن يَسْتَمِعِ الاٌّنَ يَجِدْ لَهُ شِهَاباً رَّصَداً ]

    (And we have sought to reach the heaven; but found it filled with stern guards and flaming fires. And verily, we used to sit there in stations, to (steal) a hearing, but any who listens now will find a flaming fire watching him in ambush.) meaning, whoever would like to steal some information by listening, he will find a flaming fire waiting in ambush for him. It will not pass him or miss him, but it will wipe him out and destroy him completely.

    [
    وَأَنَّا لاَ نَدْرِى أَشَرٌّ أُرِيدَ بِمَن فِى الاٌّرْضِ أَمْ أَرَادَ بِهِمْ رَبُّهُمْ رَشَداً

    Lying in wait for him or waiting in ambush? Wow, that's pretty bad, and yet, oh so understandable. This is precisely what we would expect from someone with 7th century knowledge of these things. Nobody guessed what they really were and I don't see how anybody could have ever guessed what they really are because it is so counter intuitive to what the eye tells us.

    How come nobody sees the Quran as the 7th century book that it is? Allah obviously understands the difference between stars and meteors and does not associate the two in the least, as modern science does not either. Allah knows that meteors aren't fired at anything, nor do they pursue anything, but that the earth usually bumps into them during it's orbit around the sun, and the earth's atmosphere burns them up before they hit the ground. so it would appear that if these things can be called a sign of any sort, it would certainly be a sign of the protecting or guarding of the earth. But the Quran says the opposite. It calls them guards of the heaven canopy, not guards of the earth. A clear and very obvious misunderstanding, and a very understandable and expected one.
    Last edited by Arnold; 14th July 2007 at 16:52.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    How do people simply ignore this? The human mind is quite a piece of work. It learns how to lie to itself.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnold View Post
    How do people simply ignore this? The human mind is quite a piece of work. It learns how to lie to itself.
    Time management? Knowing that not knowing everything under the sun (or above it) is a part of life? Learning that there is more to life then answering every challange that people put on the board?

    I'm sure there are plenty of likely reasons.
    The image-obsessed, bloodthirsty, sensationalistic world outside your window is the real madhouse.

    www.islamic-relief.com

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Quote Originally Posted by Ramsey View Post
    Time management? Knowing that not knowing everything under the sun (or above it) is a part of life? Learning that there is more to life then answering every challange that people put on the board?

    I'm sure there are plenty of likely reasons.
    Funny how things only get abstract and mysterious when someone doesn't have a good answer. Well, we may not know everything in the universe, but we sure know what meteors are, and we found out that they were something completely different than stars and not even remotely related to them. We know that much. And we can easily conclude that these verses are involving the stars in some manner when talking about meteors flying across the sky.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Which constitutes a clear error of the Quran. Only Allah could have guessed the true nature of meteors before modern instrumentation. So who wrote those verses? It couldn't have been Allah.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Quote Originally Posted by Arnold View Post
    Which constitutes a clear error of the Quran. Only Allah could have guessed the true nature of meteors before modern instrumentation. So who wrote those verses? It couldn't have been Allah.
    oohhh pick me.. pick me...... it was Waraqah ibn Naufal ibn Asad ibn 'Abd al-'Uzza

    According to Burkhari he's the one who interpreted Muhummed's 'vision' and said "This is the angel Gabriel whom Allah sent to Moses"

    So maybe its just more of Waraqah's interpretation(s)...????

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Yet again Arnold adds an implied meaning to what is NOT literally said in the Quran. Where does the Quran talk about meteors? It talks about a "Siraj" literally something like a torch, a burning flame which prevents the Jin from passing the highest heavens.

    Of course this is a matter of the unseen and we are now talking in logical possibilities. What you have to show is the logical inconsistency of this.

    Anyway it is clear Arnold has an agenda! He pretends he has a "catharsis" everytime he hashes out the usual anti islamic rubbish from your typical anti islamic sites to give us an illusion that he so, I mean so balanced and fair.

    Yeah right!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    Yet again Arnold adds an implied meaning to what is NOT literally said in the Quran. Where does the Quran talk about meteors? It talks about a "Siraj" literally something like a torch, a burning flame which prevents the Jin from passing the highest heavens.
    And it says they are in the lowest heaven and are visible to see (15:18)

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    Of course this is a matter of the unseen
    The Jinn are unseen, but not the things that chase them, as per the verses. and, they are certainly logically related to stars in some fashion as per 67:5

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    and we are now talking in logical possibilities. What you have to show is the logical inconsistency of this.
    They are talking about meteors as there is nothing else in the sky that we can see that appears to behave like a misslie.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    Anyway it is clear Arnold has an agenda!
    Sure, so what? I'll tell you my agenda. I get sick and tired of hearing Muslims lie about the Quran. Simple enough reason. It's far from a perfect book.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    He pretends he has a "catharsis" everytime he hashes out the usual anti islamic rubbish from your typical anti islamic sites to give us an illusion that he so, I mean so balanced and fair.

    Yeah right!
    Actually, if you read properly, most of the stuff I post comes from Islamic sites. So what are you talking about? Get clued in.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    What the heck is this?

    http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=15&tid=26874
    Blessed be He Who has placed the big stars in the heavens.) [25:61] `Atiyah Al-`Awfi said: "Buruj here refers to sentinel fortresses.'' He made the "shooting stars'' to guard it against the evil devils who try to listen to information conveyed at the highest heights. If any devil breaches it and advances hoping to listen, a clear "shooting star'' comes to him and destroys him.

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    "And it says they are in the lowest heaven and are visible to see (15:18) "

    No verse 15:18 talks about a burning flame that prevents them from going past the "highest" heavens. Get your verses right. Just typical from a guy who probably cant speak arabic!

    "The Jinn are unseen, but not the things that chase them, as per the verses. and, they are certainly logically related to stars in some fashion as per 67:5"

    That is a mute point. Allah is just telling us that he has a flaming barrier to prevent the Jinn from going to areas where they should not go to. Nothing about this happening in the lowest heaven. Sorry the verse says no such thing




    "They are talking about meteors as there is nothing else in the sky that we can see that appears to behave like a misslie."

    No that is the amateur twit in you. You cant discern what is literally or even implied in this case from the arabic.



    "Sure, so what? I'll tell you my agenda. I get sick and tired of hearing Muslims lie about the Quran. Simple enough reason. It's far from a perfect book."

    Well so far no luck in showing it



    "Actually, if you read properly, most of the stuff I post comes from Islamic sites. So what are you talking about? Get clued in"

    No interested in your artifical "shock" and catharsis to give us an impression that you are impartial. You clearly are not.

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    [QUOTE=Alshami;102258]"And it says they are in the lowest heaven and are visible to see (15:18) "

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    No verse 15:18 talks about a burning flame that prevents them from going past the "highest" heavens. Get your verses right. Just typical from a guy who probably cant speak arabic!
    How about Ibn Kathir? Do you think HE has his Arabic right?

    http://tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=15&tid=26874
    [تَبَارَكَ الَّذِى جَعَلَ فِى السَّمَآءِ بُرُوجاً]

    (Blessed be He Who has placed the big stars in the heavens.) [25:61] `Atiyah Al-`Awfi said: "Buruj here refers to sentinel fortresses.'' He made the "shooting stars'' to guard it against the evil devils who try to listen to information conveyed at the highest heights. If any devil breaches it and advances hoping to listen, a clear "shooting star'' comes to him and destroys him. He may already have passed on whatever he heard before the fire hit him, to another devil below him; the latter will then take it to his friends [among humans], as is stated in the Sahih. Explaining this Ayah, Al-Bukhari reported from Abu Hurayrah that the Prophet said:

    «إِذَا قَضَى اللهُ الْأَمْرَ فِي السَّمَاءِ ضَرَبَتِ الْمَلَائِكَةُ بِأَجْنِحَتِهَا خُضْعَانًا لِقَوْلِهِ كَأَنَّهُ سِلْسِلَةٌ عَلَى صَفْوَان»

    (When Allah decrees any matter in heaven, the angels beat their wings in submission to His Word, [with a sound like] a chain [beating] on a smooth rock.'') (`Ali and other subnarrators said, "The sound reaches them.'') "When the fright leaves their (angels') hearts, they (angels) are asked: `What did your Lord say' They respond: "The truth. And He is the Most High, the Most Great.' So those who hope to hear something listen, and they are standing one above the other.'' Sufyan [the narrator] described them with a gesture, spreading the fingers of his right hand and holding it in such a way that the fingers were above one another. "Sometimes the flaming fire hits one of these listeners before he is able to convey what he has heard to the one who is beneath him, and he is burned up, or sometimes the fire does not hit him until he has pit on to the one beneath him, so he brings it to the earth.'' Perhaps Sufyan said: "...until it reaches the earth and he puts it into the mouth of the sorcerer or fortune-teller, so that after telling a hundred lies he gets something right, and the people say, `Did he not tell us that on such and such a day such and such would happen, and we found it to be the truth among the statements which were heard from heaven.''' Then Allah mentions His creation of the earth and how He spread it out, and the firm mountains, valleys, lands and sands that he has placed in it, and the plants and fruits that He causes to grow in their appropriate locations.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "The Jinn are unseen, but not the things that chase them, as per the verses. and, they are certainly logically related to stars in some fashion as per 67:5"

    That is a mute point. Allah is just telling us that he has a flaming barrier to prevent the Jinn from going to areas where they should not go to.
    Bull. Flaming barriers don't pursue or follow, or lie waiting in ambush. Bunk.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    Nothing about this happening in the lowest heaven. Sorry the verse says no such thing
    What?

    [quote]
    015:016 Section 2: Forces of Evil will be destroyed

    015:016 Khan And indeed, We have put the big stars in the heaven and We beautified it for the beholders.

    015:016 Maulana And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven, and We have made it fair-seeming to the beholders,

    015:016 Pickthal And verily in the heaven we have set mansions of the stars, and We have beautified it for beholders.

    015:016 Rashad We placed galaxies in the sky, and adorned it for the beholders.

    015:016 Sarwar We have made constellations in the sky and decorated them for the onlookers.

    015:016 Shakir And certainly We have made strongholds in the heaven and We have made it fair seeming to the beholders.

    015:016 Sherali And WE have, indeed, made mansions of stars in the heaven and have adorned it for beholders.

    015:016 Yusufali It is We Who have set out the zodiacal signs in the heavens, and made them fair-seeming to (all) beholders;

    015:017

    015:017 Khan And We have guarded it (near heaven) from every outcast Shaitan (devil).

    015:017 Maulana And We guard it against every accursed devil,

    015:017 Pickthal And We have guarded it from every outcast devil,

    015:017 Rashad And we guarded it against every rejected devil.

    015:017 Sarwar We have protected them from every condemned devil,

    015:017 Shakir And We guard it against every accursed Shaitan,

    015:017 Sherali And WE have guarded it against the intrusion of every rejected Satan.

    015:017 Yusufali And (moreover) We have guarded them from every cursed devil:

    015:018

    015:018 Khan Except him (devil) that gains hearing by stealing, he is pursued by a clear flaming fire.

    015:018 Maulana But he who steals a hearing; so there follows him a visible flame.

    015:018 Pickthal Save him who stealeth the hearing, and them doth a clear flame pursue.

    015:018 Rashad If any of them sneaks around to listen, a mighty projectile will chase him back.

    015:018 Sarwar except for those who stealthily try to listen to the heavens, but who are chased away by a bright flame.

    015:018 Shakir But he who steals a hearing, so there follows him a visible flame.

    015:018 Sherali But if anyone hears stealthily something of revelation and distorts it, there pursues him a bright flame.

    015:018 Yusufali But any that gains a hearing by stealth, is pursued by a flaming fire, bright (to see).


    037:006 Khan Verily! We have adorned the near heaven with the stars (for beauty).

    037:006 Maulana Surely We have adorned the lower heaven with an adornment, the stars,

    037:006 Pickthal Lo! We have adorned the lowest heaven with an ornament, the planets;

    037:006 Rashad We have adorned the lowest heaven with adorning planets.

    037:006 Sarwar We have decked the lower heavens with stars

    037:006 Shakir Surely We have adorned the nearest heaven with an adornment, the stars,

    037:006 Sherali WE have adorned the lowest heaven with an adornment - the planets;

    037:006 Yusufali We have indeed decked the lower heaven with beauty (in) the stars,-

    037:007

    037:007 Khan And to guard against every rebellious devil.

    037:007 Maulana And (there is) a safeguard against every rebellious devil.

    037:007 Pickthal With security from every froward devil.

    037:007 Rashad We guarded it from every evil devil.

    037:007 Sarwar to protect them from the rebellious satan.

    037:007 Shakir And (there is) a safeguard against every rebellious Shaitan.

    037:007 Sherali And have guarded it against all rebellious satans.

    037:007 Yusufali (For beauty) and for guard against all obstinate rebellious evil spirits,


    067:005

    067:005 Khan And indeed We have adorned the nearest heaven with lamps, and We have made such lamps (as) missiles to drive away the Shayatin (devils), and have prepared for them the torment of the blazing Fire.

    067:005 Maulana And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps and We make them means of conjectures for the devils, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.

    067:005 Pickthal And verily We have beautified the world's heaven with lamps, and We have made them missiles for the devils, and for them We have prepared the doom of flame.

    067:005 Rashad We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and guarded its borders with projectiles against the devils; we prepared for them a retribution in Hell.

    067:005 Sarwar We have decked the lowest heavens with torches. With these torches We have stoned the devils and We have prepared for them the torment of hell.

    067:005 Shakir And certainly We have adorned this lower heaven with lamps and We have made these missiles for the Shaitans, and We have prepared for them the chastisement of burning.

    067:005 Sherali And verily, WE have adorned the lowest heaven with lamps, and WE have made them the means of driving away satans, and WE have prepared for them the punishment of the blazing Fire.

    067:005 Yusufali And we have, (from of old), adorned the lowest heaven with Lamps, and We have made such (Lamps) (as) missiles to drive away the Evil Ones, and have prepared for them the Penalty of the Blazing Fire.

    Where are these lamps? what are they?

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "They are talking about meteors as there is nothing else in the sky that we can see that appears to behave like a misslie."

    No that is the amateur twit in you. You cant discern what is literally or even implied in this case from the Arabic.
    You people really over use this excuse.

    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "Sure, so what? I'll tell you my agenda. I get sick and tired of hearing Muslims lie about the Quran. Simple enough reason. It's far from a perfect book."

    Well so far no luck in showing it
    I don't believe that you believe that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Alshami View Post
    "Actually, if you read properly, most of the stuff I post comes from Islamic sites. So what are you talking about? Get clued in"

    No interested in your artifical "shock" and catharsis to give us an impression that you are impartial. You clearly are not.
    I attempt to be factual. If you want to break that word factual up into a bunch of other things, then so be it.

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    "How about Ibn Kathir? Do you think HE has his Arabic right?"

    Sure if you knew what he was talking about. The first verse talks about

    Blessed be He Who has placed the big stars in the heavens.)

    i.e. the Buruj.

    Now there is difference of opinion on what is implied by this (yes the principle again whether you like it or not you bigoted islamophobe!)

    So if you knew the arabic you would have also read this from the tafsir

    يذكر تعالى خلقه السماء في ارتفاعها، وما زينها به من الكواكب الثوابت والسيارات، لمن تأمل وكرر النظر فيما يرى من العجائب والآيات الباهرات، ما يحار نظره فيه، وبهذا قال مجاهد وقتادة: البروج ههنا هي الكواكب. (قلت): وهذا كقوله تبارك وتعالى:
    { تَبَارَكَ ٱلَّذِى جَعَلَ فِى ٱلسَّمَآءِ بُرُوجاً }
    [الفرقان: 61] الآية. ومنهم من قال: البروج هي منازل الشمس والقمر. وقال عطية العوفي: البروج ههنا هي قصور الحرس. وجعل الشهب حرساً لها من مردة الشياطين؛ لئلا يسمعوا إلى الملأ الأعلى، فمن تمرد وتقدم منهم لاستراق السمع، جاءه شهاب مبين فأتلفه، فربما يكون قد ألقى الكلمة التي سمعها قبل أن يدركه الشهاب إلى الذي هو دونه، فيأخذها الآخر، ويأتي بها إلى وليه، كما جاء مصرحاً به في الصحيح

    Note the bold terms. Most of the scholars think that the Buruj as per its meaning in relation to the context refers to the celestial bodies which is clearly implied in the verse and in the linguistics of the term.

    "Bull. Flaming barriers don't pursue or follow, or lie waiting in ambush. Bunk."

    Eh? What are you on and can I have some. Really that is just pathetic. Why this anthropomorphic description of flames that lie in ambush? Are you really this stupid? Allah just prevents the jin using flames. What is the big deal and where is the logical contradiction? Note again no meteorites.


    "What?"

    Exactly the feeling I get!


    037:006 Khan Verily! We have adorned the near heaven with the stars (for beauty).

    So there you go we have stars in the sky. What is the problem? The Quran goes on to say in arabic


    037:007 Maulana And (there is) a safeguard against every rebellious devil.

    Which is a better translation. I agree. Where is the mention of the meteorites in the lowest heaven and where is the link that says the stars in the lowest heavens are barriers? In the arabic we have a clear "tafseel" with the verse

    إِنَّا زَيَّنَّا السَّمَآءَ الدُّنْيَا بِزِينَةٍ الْكَوَكِبِ - وَحِفْظاً مِّن كُلِّ شَيْطَـنٍ مَّارِدٍ - لاَّ يَسَّمَّعُونَ إِلَى الْمَلإِ الاٌّعْلَى وَيُقْذَفُونَ مِن كُلِّ جَانِبٍ - دُحُوراً وَلَهُمْ عَذابٌ وَاصِبٌ - إِلاَّ مَنْ خَطِفَ الْخَطْفَةَ فَأَتْبَعَهُ شِهَابٌ ثَاقِبٌ

    Allah is telling us that he had adorned the heavens with the Kawakib ( the arabic for planets really, could be stars)

    AND

    he has protected the highest heavens ( from other evidence too) from the evil Jin using flames.

    So our creator is boasting of his abilities, of which he has a full right.

    SO YET AGAIN WHERE IS THIS MENTION OF METEORITES?!


    "You people really over use this excuse."

    Well we have to drum it in with people who are slow to learn



    "I don't believe that you believe that."

    Do I care about your amateur psychology? No i think not.


    "I attempt to be factual. If you want to break that word factual up into a bunch of other things, then so be it"

    No you pretend to be factual when you cant even speak arabic.
    Last edited by Alshami; 28th July 2007 at 13:57.

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Salam Al Shami,

    It seems apparent that Arnold is here just because he's bored and has nothing better to do. But please refrain from any personal attacks.

    Regards

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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    No problem but you have to admit he is one attractive target. loool!

  15. #15
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    Default Re: Jinn and Shooting Stars

    Alshami, drop the name calling.
    1.4 billion people live under the poverty line - 1.25 USD per day. 20000 Africans die needlessly everyday due to AIDS, malaria and TB. 1.02 billion people do not have enough to eat. 3/4s of this are rural poor farmers who will also bear the brunt of global warming.

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