IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

[Hannahh]

Well good because to be honest, my knowledge is very limited in that respect.

You know, what Aladdin has tried to relate is that the lineage of "doctrine" is a very important thing to be aware of in terms of how to follow the advice of any given mustahid.

The major points of that (if I am correct) are that no one can follow an actual dead person. The Mahdi is not dead so you can follow the Mahdi but that is very impossible to do with the fragments of information we have...that in itself is the nature of the Occultation (both major and minor).

This then serves to reason that there are no living people who actually have "new" information and the Shi'i scholars are all of one doctrine and that is the doctrine of the Twelve Imams from the Ahlul Bayt which literally means, "The house of the prophet."

What you need to understand in that is that the "family" of the prophet was not limited to just his heirs (as in the immediate sense of father/children). A family in that sense is also composed of all types of cousins of any degree and at that time, many of the Companions were from the "family" but they were anywhere from second degree to eighth degree cousins. The first Imam however (as the rasool was the only child of his father who died before he was born) whose name is Ali abi Taleb was his first cousin and therefore, the closest possible relative to the prophet at that time. Yes, he had other cousins from various tribal members like Abu Sufyan who is thought to be the eighth degree cousin. That is why it is confusing when someone says that you must follow the Ahlul Bayt and they include in it near relatives and distant ones. In the case of Abu Sufyan, he was actually the last Companion to accept Islam and basically, he did it under the duress of being the last one. Everyone had basically realized the truth of the situation. His son, is named Muwaiya and in one of Hasan's posts, he has indicated to you that not only are you not to criticize the first three caliphs for their act of disunity but you must also pay tribute to Mu'aw'iya (may Allah curse him).

To me, this is truly a very bad piece of advice. It is possible to look past the mistakes of the first three and even Aisha (pbutwd) but it is simply not possible to look upon Mu'aw'aya in the light of his great treasonous adventure.

And you all should look into that if you ask me because it does make a difference in how one relates the story and what certain aya refer to when it comes to asking those who were adverse to the prophet to "call up their relatives" and he called his. He arrived only with four people: Hadrat Zahra (Fatima), Ali, Hassan and Husayn (pbut). He did not bring other relatives and cover them in his cloak. He did not bring various cousins. He only brought those four.

Those are things that support what Aladdin and I are telling you. They are explicit and clear. They are not hidden to anyone and it is not a good thing to mislead others in that. I have little doubt that the madhabs, were they to be living, would relate this story as well. In fact, if you look at many of their discourses, one of the commonalities is that they advise a person to seek better guidance if something isn't clear from one of them.

The Shi'i guidance on these issues however, from a sheerly Twelver point of view is unified and clear. Those modern issues which require new rulings are left to living people who are conversant with modern sciences, modern political situations and the like. But in that, they all follow one doctrine and that is of the Twelve Imams. They do use information from the madhabs but this is not an indication of anything really other than the fact that in our times the sectarian strifes have grown quite large and at that time they were much smaller. Even though at that time the Khalifate did not return to any of the Shi'i after Ali Mu'mineen (pbuh).

I think it is important to ask why didn't it? Why did it never return to that particular group of people during the Ottoman Empire?

Maybe someone more knowledgable can tell me if the "temporal" khalifate was ever 'awarded' to someone outside of the ranks that descended from the initial "family" groups of distant cousins related to the first three Caliphs?

[The_Other_Admin]

From what you have written above it appears that you have not read up on imam Mahdi very much. I highly recommend you to do so from your own sources. The judgment day will be very soon after the death of imam Mahdi.

And, very well said sister Hannah.

Wa' Salaam

Mohamed

The time given in hadiths is figure of speech, it could be 1,000+ of years between the death of Mahdi and DoJ.

[The_Other_Admin]

In the Sunni thinking, I believe the Mahdi is a mystery which is not well addressed. It leads to all sorts of odd stories about the End of Times.

The Mahdi is in occultation per both doctrines

Nope really.

I am very interested to know what people here believe and why (regarding the Mahdi).

There is nothing in the Quran about mahdi and reliability of hadiths about mahdi is questionable. But I believe it is possible that there maybe some truth in those hadiths. Thus I stay neutral as their is a possibility for both that he may show up in the end-times or he may never show up. Here is a wiki article which seems pretty fair http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Muhammad_al-Mahdi

[The_Other_Admin]

What is the concept of Al Raja'a (the return)?

[Hannahh]

My question is for what will happen with imamat of Mahdi at the end of his return... after the event of Isa (p) and Dajjal. Read the next 3 lines.

Much of Islam is not in the Quran brother.

Would you consider the creation of the butterfly to be outside of the Quran's voice in the matter because it "isn't in there" either.



There are many hadiths for the Shi'i. From the Companions, from Buhkari, from Muslim, from Tirmidhi....on and on.

And you asked the question if I remember correctly.

In my opinion, one of the important aspects of the Quran are your instructions for Judgement Day. Part of that is believed to be the ability to recognize these issues should you encounter them.

[aladdin]

And, the interesting part is that a great rasool, such as rasool Allah Isa, will pray behind the progeny of Ali and Fatima, the imam Mahdi.

We are back to Ali again. Does the progeny come from the mother or the father.

Wa' Salaam

Mohamed

[Hannahh]

At the end of time, their rulers will cause My people severe trouble in such a way that there will be no comfort for Muslims anywhere. (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi `Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir az-Zaman, p. 12)

The Hour will come when adultery becomes widespread. (Al-Haythami, Kitab al-Fitan)

The Last Hour will not be established until they (wicked people) commit adultery on the roads (public ways). (Ibn Hibban and Bazzar)

Men will imitate women; and women will imitate men. (Allama Jalaluddin Suyuti, Durre-Mansoor)

People will indulge in homosexuality and lesbianism. (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Muntakhab Kanzul Ummaal)

There will be prevalence of open illegal intercourse. (Bukhari)

The Hour (Last Day) will not be established until murders will increase. (Bukhari)

Allah's Messenger (saas) said: 'The Harj (will increase).' They asked, 'What is the Harj?' He replied, '(It is) killing (murdering), (it is) murdering (killing).' (Bukhari)

The Hour will come when violence, bloodshed, and anarchy become common. (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Muntakhab Kanzul Ummaal)

The world will not come to an end until a day would come to the people on which there will be general massacre and bloodshed. (Muslim)

Great cities will be ruined and it will be as if they had not existed the day before. (Al-Muttaqi al-Hindi, Al-Burhan fi Alamat al-Mahdi Akhir al-Zaman)

The Hour (Last Day) will not be established until ... earthquakes will be very frequent. (Bukhari)

There are two great incidents before the day of Judgment... and then years of earthquakes. (Narrated by Umm Salama r.a.)

The poor will grow in number. (Amal Al-Din Al-Qazwini, Mufid Al-'ulum Wa-mubid Al-humum)

Gains will be shared out only among the rich, with no benefit to the poor. (Tirmidhi)

Near the establishment of the Hour there will be days during which (religious) knowledge will be taken away (vanish) and general ignorance will spread... (Bukhari)


There will be a bried dark trial which will not fail to afflict everyone of this community and then when people think it is finished it will start all over again. During it a man may be a believer in the morning and an unbeliever in the evening. (Abu Dawud)

There will come a time upon the Ummat when people will recite the Qur'an, but it will not go further than their throats, (into their hearts). (Bukhari)

Before the Last Hour there will be commotions like pieces of a dark night in which a man will be a believer in the morning and an infidel in the evening, or a believer in the evening and infidel in the morning. (Abu Dawud)

A time will come when a man will not care about how he gets things, whether lawful or unlawful. (Bukhari)

There will appear in latter times a people who will gain this world with the help of religion. (Tirmidhi)

The Last Hour will not be established until there will remain those people who will neither be aware of the virtues and never prevent the vices. (Ahmad)

The Last Hour will not come before Allah takes His religion away from the people of the earth, leaving no one in it but heathens who do not recognise right or object to wrong. (Reported by Abdullah ibn 'Amr ibn al-'As)

The Last Hour will not come before there come forth thirty Dajjals (imposters), each presenting himself as an apostle of Allah. (Abu Dawud)

The rebuilding of the ruined places in the world, and the ruination of constructed places are signs and portents of Doomsday. (Ismail Mutlu, Kýyamet Alametleri, (Signs of the Last Day), Mutlu Publications, Istanbul, 1999, p.138)

Salaams Chuck. These are all hadith. They cannot be found in the Quran really as "specifically" as they are here. But would you refute their veracity?

It isn't easy to choose between reliable and unreliable you know...for me or you. Hadeeth science is very specific. So then, you must rely on someone else just as I must rely on someone else. So who do you rely on then?

That is pretty much the Shi'i case and it is about reliability. Unfortunately, some people think that "truth" itself i.e. logical and holistic truth is a way of fooling someone into accepting falsehood. Now that is crazy, don't you think? In a case such as the initial sedition..there cannot be multiple answers and sectarianism is the result of the sedition...no more and no less. That is why I say often that it isn't a mulitiple choice question with one of the answers being "all of the above". It is a true or false statement, period.

Furthermore, the use of only "four" books of hadith as "reliable" is simply ridiculous. NO person in any scientific/doctoral/theoretical area of research would EVER limit their sources to FOUR. But that is indeed what many Sunnis believe to be the case and have accepted the "big four" as being authoritative. They aren't and they are not exhaustive.

The people who witnessed the sermons and conversations of the prophet numbered in the hundreds of thousands. And it just isn't the case that the Shi'i limit themselves to ANY number or transmissions. They do corroborate though (as everyone should) and they do comment on the character of any person relating a phrase. The Shi'i scholars are UNANIMOUS on the issue of the Mahdi coming from the Ahlul Bayt of the prophet.

And you need to realize something in that and that is WHY ON EARTH would that idea be repulsive to anyone?

Do you think the Mahdi should come from "somewhere else" then? Because that is the only OTHER option to that statement. Like most of the argument itself, it is once again, a true or false. And false opens up all sorts of possibilities of selection. Do you think the prophet would have left people unguided in that MAJOR issue of recognition?

Islam is not a guessing game.

[Hannahh]

From the Peak of Eloquence:

When (1) Allah gave him (Amir al-mu'minin) victory over the enemy at the Battle of Jamal one of his comrades said on that occasion, "I wish my brother so-and-so had been present and he too would have seen what success and victory Allah had given you," whereupon Amir al-mu'minin said:

"Did your brother hold me friend?"

He said: "Yes,"

Then Amir al-mu'minin said:

In that case he was with us. Rather in this army of ours even those persons were also present who are still in the loins of men and wombs of women. Shortly, time will bring them out and faith will get strength through them.

If the right usurped from us is given back to us we shall take it, otherwise we shall go on claiming it.

If matters get mixed up then scrutinize the cause and you will know what the effects will be.

[The_Other_Admin]

Much of Islam is not in the Quran brother.

Quran has mentioned everything that is important for faith. Quran is the criteria for right and wrong, it is not possible that it leaves out important elements of faith unmentioned. Rest leads the path to schisms.

017.089
YUSUFALI: And We have explained to man, in this Qur'an, every kind of similitude: yet the greater part of men refuse (to receive it) except with ingratitude!

018.054
YUSUFALI: We have explained in detail in this Qur'an, for the benefit of mankind, every kind of similitude: but man is, in most things, contentious.

030.058
YUSUFALI: verily We have propounded for men, in this Qur'an every kind of Parable

--------------

YUSUFALI: An messenger from Allah, rehearsing scriptures kept pure and holy: Wherein are laws (or decrees) right and straight.

Nor did the People of the Book make schisms, until after there came to them Clear Evidence. And they have been commanded no more than this: To worship Allah, offering Him sincere devotion, being true (in faith); to establish regular prayer; and to practise regular charity; and that is the Religion Right and Straight.
(Quran: 098.002 - 098.005)

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027.001
YUSUFALI: These are verses of the Qur'an,-a book that makes (things) clear;
A guide: and glad tidings for the believers,-
Those who establish regular prayers and give in regular charity, and also have (full) assurance of the hereafter.
(027.001 - 027.003)

Would you consider the creation of the butterfly to be outside of the Quran's voice in the matter because it "isn't in there" either.

That is not an article of faith.

These are all hadith. They cannot be found in the Quran really as "specifically" as they are here. But would you refute their veracity?

You have mixed hadiths mahdi and other things. I'm not a scholar of hadith, but my understanding is based on the research of scholars of understanding-islam site. And I've found them, usually, very objective in their research.

As far as its opposition is concerned, there are a couple of arguments, which are presented against this idea. The main argument against the advent of Imam Mehdi is that none of the Ahadith, which informs about his coming have reached us through reliable sources. There is, however, no mention of his return in the Qur'an and therefore, the advent of Imam Mehdi cannot be termed as a part of the Islamic faith or considered as an element of the Islamic beliefs.

http://www.understanding-islam.com/r...uestion&qid=40

[The_Other_Admin]

Mu'aw'iya (may Allah curse him)

What is the point of putting a curse on a dead person? Do Allah in Quran teach us to put curses on Pharaoh?

And you all should look into that if you ask me because it does make a difference in how one relates the story and what certain aya refer to when it comes to asking those who were adverse to the prophet to "call up their relatives" and he called his. He arrived only with four people: Hadrat Zahra (Fatima), Ali, Hassan and Husayn (pbut). He did not bring other relatives and cover them in his cloak. He did not bring various cousins. He only brought those four.

Br. Hasan posted an answer to this. But in any case, even a lay person can see that this is speculation. Another verses from Quran to ponder:

054.022
YUSUFALI: But We have indeed made the Qur'an easy to understand and remember: then is there any that will receive admonition?

003.007
YUSUFALI: He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book: In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book: others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say: "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord:" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

I think it is important to ask why didn't it? Why did it never return to that particular group of people during the Ottoman Empire?

Maybe someone more knowledgable can tell me if the "temporal" khalifate was ever 'awarded' to someone outside of the ranks that descended from the initial "family" groups of distant cousins related to the first three Caliphs?

You read the discussion here that went on caliphate before.

[aladdin]

Aisha was six when rasool Allah had aqd with her and she was nine when rasool Allah had nikah with her.

Try to refute this?

[The_Other_Admin]

Aisha was six when rasool Allah had aqd with her and she was nine when rasool Allah had nikah with her.

Try to refute this?

What is there to refute? It is not in the Quran and hadiths can be faulty. So what you are trying show? How your question is relevant to this discussion?

[aladdin]

What is there to refute? It is not in the Quran and hadiths can be faulty. So what you are trying show? How your question is relevant to this discussion?

So are you saying that the sahih sita (the sacred six books) are faulty?

[The_Other_Admin]

So are you saying that the sahih sita (the sacred six books) are faulty?

I never said they are infallible. Allah has only promised to protect Quran.

[aladdin]

I never said they are infallible. Allah has only promised to protect Quran.

So, can I quote you that sahih sita (the six scared books) are no longer sahih?