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Thread: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

  1. #346
    Senior Member Hannahh's Avatar
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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS


  2. #347

    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Quote Originally Posted by Hannahh View Post
    And personally Chuck, as to your comment about mumbo jumbo...coming from you I am honored. In my estimation, you get a C- in reading comprehension. That is your problem, not mine. I understand EVERYTHING you have to say.

    You need to think about that aspect of this discussion prior to insulting me (using your own ignorance as proof of it).
    My apologies if you felt insulted, that was not my intention. Maybe my choice of word was wrong. Anyway, I only meant that your writing is difficult to comprehend. Imo, your writing is too vague, for example, when you quoted and pointed out surah Al Kaf; the quoted verses had lot of things in it and it could be anyone of those things. I couldn't understand what you were alluding to until you clarified that you were pointing to occultation.

    Maybe the problem is at my end as you say. If it is then may Allah correct it and increase my comprehension & articulation (Amen).

    Regarding Mahdi issue, I prefer to discuss it in the thread about mahdi. And I don't have a problem with occultation, but if you notice I'm doubting it because there are weaknesses in chain of transmission regarding the hadiths of Mahdi and Quran doesn't mention him. To you it may look like bias... I like to believe in the return of Jesus (pbuh) too, but I've come to terms that it is not clearly mentioned in Quran so it is not a requirement of faith and it may not happen at all in this world.

    Quote Originally Posted by Hannahh View Post
    Allah has taken better care of [anyone] than [anyone] actually deserve[s]
    That is one of the best thing I've read in the thread.

    w'salam



  3. #348
    Senior Member Hannahh's Avatar
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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    As for me, I leave you with a fine article about the situation in Saudi Arabia regarding the Shi'i who are basically treated like foreigners and "non muslims" by the government there.

    http://www.jafariyanews.com/2k7_news...audiarabia.htm

    Otherwise I am done discussing this issue with people who say they cannot understand information that is typically widely understood by the knowledgable in the subject and who then deny that they in fact said they are unable to comprehend but not because THEY are ignorant but rather, because I AM either IGNORANT or a very poor communicator.

    Chuck. I am a PUBLISHED writer. I think I have a small idea about communiction. Don't you?

    Salaams and go read the books for yourself. I am not your mommy.

  4. #349

    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Quote Originally Posted by Hannahh View Post
    As for me, I leave you with a fine article about the situation in Saudi Arabia regarding the Shi'i who are basically treated like foreigners and "non muslims" by the government there.

    http://www.jafariyanews.com/2k7_news...audiarabia.htm
    I don't know what is your purpose of giving me this article related to our discussion. But in any case, I'll make it clear that I don't condone Saudia or any other country denying the legitimate rights of any community whether it is shia, sunni, bahai, christian, jew or any other group.



  5. #350
    Senior Member Hannahh's Avatar
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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Off topic but since you keep needling things:

    You have stated your own ignorance. I have stated steadfastness.

    Steadfastness...which Lumumba questioned is now being used by the Pope:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070510/...ca/pope_brazil

    Muslims do not OWN ijtihad nor do they have the ability to control the way people are putting things together i.e. 2 + 2 = 4

    I'm truly sorry that you cannot understand English and truly sorry that the simple case of true or false is lost on you. You obviously prefer multiple choice questions and completely shy away from essay questions. The bottom line however in this particular topic is:

    True or False. Either the three "rightly" guided ones did not take the advice of Allah per the prophet (and follow the Ahlul Bayt in both Sunna and reasoning) or they were given a special right for a "secret council" that was only composed of three Companions (when there were actually dozens) and those same three elected themselves Caliphs one after the other until the third one was assassinated by the umma because he was robbing the community chest. True or False Chuck. It is that simple and I don't really care if you get it or not to be honest. I think you are a tedious questioner and student.

    And if muslims don't remain steadfast, then who will? Those who eat the body of a prophet every Sunday in a truly queer ritual?

    Peace on you anyways.

    The Steadfast.

  6. #351

    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    You have stated your own ignorance. I have stated steadfastness.
    Allah knows that better that who is really steadfast toward Allah and His commandments.

    Steadfastness...which Lumumba questioned is now being used by the Pope:

    http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070510/...ca/pope_brazil

    Muslims do not OWN ijtihad nor do they have the ability to control the way people are putting things together i.e. 2 + 2 = 4
    Again we are getting into a problem where I don't understand what you are trying to say. I'll take a guess, I think you are supporting clergy.

    I'm truly sorry that you cannot understand English and truly sorry that the simple case of true or false is lost on you. You obviously prefer multiple choice questions and completely shy away from essay questions. The bottom line however in this particular topic is:

    True or False. Either the three "rightly" guided ones did not take the advice of Allah per the prophet (and follow the Ahlul Bayt in both Sunna and reasoning) or they were given a special right for a "secret council" that was only composed of three Companions (when there were actually dozens) and those same three elected themselves Caliphs one after the other until the third one was assassinated by the umma because he was robbing the community chest. True or False Chuck. It is that simple and I don't really care if you get it or not to be honest. I think you are a tedious questioner and student.

    And if muslims don't remain steadfast, then who will? Those who eat the body of a prophet every Sunday in a truly queer ritual?
    Those are heavy allegations. Only Allah knows what really happened, in this time nobody is a witness to the actual events that took place, but I have not seen any real reason to believe allegations against them. You have not given me a straight answer to my questions. As far as I know shi'i don't deny these:
    (1) Abu Baker lead the Hajj (this is a problem against your theory)
    (2a) Allegiance of Ali to all 3 (another problem if Caliphate of Ali was the command of Allah then he did opposite what Allah say in Quran)
    (2b) Not giving allegiance to Mauwyia (Mauwyia was wrong he didn't gave allegiance to him, so why did he gave allegiance to first 3 caliphs if they were wrong too?).
    (3) He named his 2 sons Uthman and Umar. I asked couple of shi'i why they don't name their children Uthman and Umar? They became furious and said they are the cursed people why we'll name our children same as them. These names were good enough for their Imam but not for the followers... strange.
    (4) Prophet (pbuh) didn't mention anything about Ali and caliphate in the farewell sermon where he took the oath from muslims of delivering the message of Allah. One explanation given for this was hilarious that prophet(p) was afraid that muslims will rebel
    (5) 12er Shi'i believe that 12 imams are greater than other prophets including Moses (p) and Jesus(p) but they haven't been mentioned even at least once by name in Quran.
    (6) If it is such an important issue then why it is not mentioned in Quran to guide muslims as all other important issues are mentioned, for example, even Zaid and the issue regarding him is mentioned, so why not successor of prophet (pbuh) if he was given by Allah? That would have sort it all out.
    (7) If it is an article of faith why it is not mentioned in Quran, like other articles of faith.

    Further, it doesn't make sense that prophet (pbuh) brought the mighty pagan Arabs to their knees, but he (pubh) couldn't carry out the command of Allah against 3 people? This is amusing

    All in all, I won't believe in these allegations for the reasons explained in the following article:

    Before referring to Bukhari and Muslim and then moving to the issue of miscarriage, please first let me elaborate on the very thoughtful response that brother Hashmi provided as I think this might be beneficial for other readers and for further referencing:

    In consulting the sources of history about a personality, one may choose two approaches:
    Deciding that the person is good or bad and then looking into the sources to extract appropriate evidences to support the opinion.

    Looking at the sources to find as much information as possible about a person before even beginning to rule any judgments about him/her.


    In the first approach one limits oneself in looking at only certain versions of certain records from certain sources without testing the reliability of the records and without considering the context and the situation in which the incident might have happened.

    In the second approach one tries to look at a reasonable number of the relevant versions of a reasonable number of the relevant records in a reasonable number of sources. This will then be followed by carefully testing the reliability of the records and consideration of the context and situation in which the incident might have happened.

    The first approach falls in the category of prejudice; the second approach falls in the category of research.

    By the 'Prejudice Approach' it is possible to criticize any personality and in fact anything (from God almighty - as being criticized by atheists - and the Prophet of Islam - as being criticised by some none-Muslims - to the companions of the Prophet - as being criticised by some of our Shia brothers). I can guarantee that no personality (whether Ali or Umar) can be immune from criticism when it is based on the 'Prejudice Approach'.

    I am extremely sorry that I have to say that unfortunately when it comes to some of the great companions of the Prophet, some of our Muslim brothers/sisters take the first approach in looking at these personalities.

    Example 1:
    Allegation Umar (r) added "prayer is better than sleep" in the fajer azan
    Analysis:
    This is a very important part of the brother Hashmi's response to you. It will be only a prejudice approach that can make us focusing on certain ahadith and ignoring other ahadith. The same approach can be done with Shia sources. Do you know that the sentence of "Prayer is better than sleeping" is also approved in some of the Shia ahadith:
    Al-Tahzib by Al-Toosi, Vol. 2, No. 14: "Imam Jafar says: ... Al-Taswib (i.e. the statement of 'Al-Salat Khayron Min Al-Nawm') in Iqama is part of the Sunnat.

    Al-Tahzib by Al-Toosi, Vol. 2, No. 15: "Imam Baqir (RA) says: My father (i.e. Ali Ibn Alhusayn (RA) used to say 'Al-Salat Khayron Min Al-Nawm,' in his Azan at home...'

    Wasa'el Al-Shia, No. 6998: "Imam Jafar (RA) says: When you are in morning prayer say 'Al-Salat Khayron Min Al-Nawm' after 'Hayye Ala Khayr Al-Amal'[1] in Azan but don't say it in Iqama.

    According to the Shia scholar, Majlesi in his book Bihar Al-Anwar, Vol. 81 P. 150 certain Shia scholars of old times had allowed saying the sentence in the morning prayers. These are Ibn Al-Junayd and Al-Ju'fi.

    I do appreciate that the majority of the ahadith in Shia collections and almost all their scholars do not allow this sentence in Azan or Iqama. However I wanted to establish the fact that by the prejudice approach, almost for anything, some evidences can be found.

    Example 2:
    Allegation: hazrat omarr burned the door to the house of hazrat Fatima, and pushed it on the prophet's beloved daughter, which resulted in the miscarriage of her expected child.
    Analysis:
    This accusation, in a way, is even more serious than the previous one. Let us for a while forget about the personalities of Umar (RA) and Fatima (RA). Let us just concentrate on the point that we are accusing a human being of murder. We are therefore in a position of a judge and like any judge we need strong evidences before being able to announce the suspect to be guilty.

    Now let us look at one of the popular sources of evidence of this sort, one that is brought forward occasionally by Shia brothers:

    Tarikh Al-Tabari:
    It is recorded that Umar threatened to set the house of Fatima on fire. There is no mention that he actually did that.

    Further more, the hadith is not reliable. It is narrated via Muhammad Ibn Hamid Ibn Hayyan. This is a very unreliable narrator. In the book of Tahzib Al-Tahzib we read that Bukhari says: There are concerns about his narrations

    • An-Nasayee says: Not reliable, has been reported that he was a liar
    • Al-Joozajani says: Not reliable
    • Al-Razi says: I have 5000 ahadith from him and will not narrate even one of them
    • Saleh Ibn Muhammad Al-Asadi says: I Haven't seen any one bolder to Allah Ta'Ala than him. He used to collect ahadith and forge them together. I haven't seen any one cleverer than him and Sulayman Al-Shazekuni in lying.
    • Baihaqi says: The Imam of Hadith, Ibne Khuzayma does not narrate from him.


    Based on the above we can safely conclude that the above evidence (in Tabari) is both insufficient and unreliable.

    Moreover when we look further in the book of Tabari we find ahadith that conflict with the above story. Only few pages after the above record we read the following two:
    • Abu Sufian asked Ali to give him his hand for Bay'at and Ali shouted at him and said we had agreed on Abu Bakr.
    • When hearing about the Bay'at in Saqifa, Ali came out of his house while he was not dressed properly only to rush in doing bayat with Abu Bakr.


    Please note that here I am not arguing that the above two records are reliable. All I am saying is that an unbiased mind should take all these into consideration and test all of them before any attempts for ruling a judgment.

    I am really amazed to see how some Shia brothers ignore the rest of the records in books like Tabari and only mention those parts that suit their belief and even then without any attempts to test the reliability of what they are quoting.

    I have examined a number of other sources that are usually referred to by Shia brothers (e.g. Al-Imama wa Al-Syasah, Al Iqd Al-Farid, Qurra Al-Ayn Fi Tafzil Al-Shaykhayn). In none of them have I found a record that fulfils the following conditions:
    • Clearly suggesting that Umar actually burned the door or pushed the door on Fatima (RA).
    • Having reliable chains of narrators (in fact the majority of these sources do not even have a chain of narrator)
    • Not accompanying with conflicting records.


    Full article: http://www.understanding-islam.com/r...ussion&did=520
    Last edited by The_Other_Admin; 14th May 2007 at 13:08. Reason: ...



  7. #352
    Senior Member Hannahh's Avatar
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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Those are heavy allegations
    Oh I see. You are just figuring that out. How surprising to me.

































    Not.

    Peace

  8. #353

    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Imam Abu Hanifah was praised by Shiah scholars may be because he had helped Imama Zaid bin Ali bin Hassan bin Ali in a revolt against Banu Ummayad.

  9. #354
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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    This topic is very long
    Last edited by Ameera; 18th April 2012 at 11:37.

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