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Thread: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

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    Default IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    True Muslims, who are called Ahl as-Sunnat, very well recognize the value of our Prophet's Ahl al-bayt 'ridwanullahi ta'ala alaihim ajmain'. They love the twelve blessed Imams very much. They try to follow the fruitful way of the Ahl al-bayt, which guides to the luminous felicity. Words alone could not be the indication of love. One would have to adapt oneself to them.


    Hadrat Abu Hanifa 'rahmatullahi ta'ala alaih', the exalted religious leader and the greatest scholar among the Sunnite Muslims, left aside all his worldly occupations, his duties and his disciples, and attended the sohbat of hadrat Imam Jafar Sadiq for two years. He obtained plenty of lore from Imam Jafar Sadiq's ocean of knowledge. He received fayd from his blessed heart, which reflected the spiritual lights coming from the Messenger of Allah. He stated, "If I had not served hadrat Imam Jafar Sadiq for two years, I would have been quite unaware of everything." Hadrat Imam Azam Abu Hanifa reached maturity through the knowledge and fayd which he acquired from Imam Jafar Sadiq. He attained high degrees that did not fall to the lot of other people.


    It was from the Imams of Ahl al-bayt that the leaders of Ahl as-Sunnat learned most of their teachings pertaining to iman and fiqh, the majority of their marifats pertaining to Tasawwuf, and even a major part of their knowledge pertaining to Tafsir and Hadith. In their training systems they reached maturity. With their tawajjuh they attained high grades. From them they received glad tidings. Shiite books acknowledge this fact, too. Ibni Mutahhir-i-Hulli, a Shiite scholar, writes in his books Nahj-ul-haq and Minhaj-ul-kerama that Imam-i-Azam Abu Hanifa and Imam-i-Malik learned from Imam-i-Jafar Sadiq 'rahmatullahi ta'ala alaihim' and attained high grades in his company. Imam Azam Abu Hanifa was taught also by Imam-i-Muhammad Baqir and Zayd-i-Shahid. Why do Shiites, while advocating respect for their (false) Darwishes who have not even seen any one of the Imams of Ahl al-bayt, vituperate the scholars of Ahl as-Sunnat who served those blessed Imams for years and acquired knowledge and received fayd from them? Is it not fard for Shiites to obey also these scholars, who were authorized by those noble Imams to give fatwa and to perform ijtihad? Shaikh-i-Hulli, a Shiite Imam, states that Imam-i-Azam Abu Hanifa was authorized (was given ijazat) to give fatwa by Imam-i-Baqir, by Zayd-i-Shahid and by Imam-i-Jafar Sadiq. That Imam-i-Azam possessed the requirements of ijazat is testified by the (twelve) faultless Imams. To speak ill of Imam-i-Azam would mean to deny the testimony of the twelve Imams, who were sinless people. And this, in its turn, would be disbelief according to the Shiite credo. Since there is not a sinless Imam today, is it not especially fard now for all Shiites to join the Madhhab of Imam-i-Azam?


    Shaikh Hulli reports from Abu-l-muhasin, who reports from Abu-l-buhtur: Abu Hanifa visited Abu Abdullah Jafar Sadiq. Upon seeing Abu Hanifa, Imam Jafar Sadiq said to him, "You will promulgate my father's Sunnat everywhere. You will show the right way to those who have lost their way. You will help those who are in peril. You will be a guide to salvation. May Allahu ta'ala help you!" Almost all Shiite books unanimously narrate the following event: Abu Hanifa visited Abu Jafar Mensur, the time's Abbasid Khalifa. Isa bin Musa was there, too. Upon seeing Abu Hanifa, he said, "O Khalifa! This newcomer is the world's greatest scholar!" Mensur asked, "O Numan! Who did you learn knowledge from?" "I learned it from Ali through Ali's disciples and from Abbas through Abbas's disciples," was the answer. Upon this the Khalifa said, "The documents you have given are very tenable". Another episode narrated in Shiite books reads as follows: Abu Hanifa was sitting in the Masjid al-Haram. There were many people around him, asking him a variety of questions, and he was answering them. He scattered the answers as easily as if they were all ready in his pocket. Suddenly, Imam-i-Abu Abdullah Jafar Sadiq came near him and stopped. As soon as Abu Hanifa saw the Imam he stood up, and said, "O the grandson of the Messenger of Allah! If I knew you were here I wouldn't even attempt what I am doing now." Hadrat Imam Jafar Sadiq's answer was, "Please sit down, o Aba Hanifa! Go on teaching Muslims what they do not know! Teach all people what you have learnt from my fathers." The two narrations given above are written in Ibni Hulli's explanatory book Tajrid.

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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    It is a good article though at times it is contradictory.

    Also, the article shows your lack of knowledge of Shia Islam.

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    Default FARD FOR SHIAT TO FOLLOW SUNNI MADHAB

    Ibni Mutahhir Hulli, a Shiite scholar, acknowledges in his books Nahj-ul-haq and Minhaj-ul- kerama that Abu Hanifa and Malik bin Anas were taught by Imam-i-Jafar Sadiq. Imam-i- Shafi'i was a disciple to Imam-i-Malik as well as to Imam-i-Muhammad Shaibani. Imam- i-azam Abu Hanifa attended the Sohbats of Imam-i-Muhammad Baqir, too, and acquired religious lore from him. Ibni Mutahhir acknowledges this fact plainly. Consequently, Imam-i-azam must be a mujtahid capable of ijtihad according to the Shiite credo. It is according to them, again, that a person who denies his testimony must be a disbeliever. As Imam-i-Musa Kazim was a prisoner in a dungeon belonging to the Abbasids, Imam-i-Abu Yusuf and Imam-i-Muhammad Shaibani would come to his dungeon and he would teach them. This fact is written in Shiite books, too.

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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    The problem with Dave was that even though he was always claiming that he wanted to learn, he didn't have the intention.

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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Also, the article shows your lack of knowledge of Shia Islam
    Can you be more specific pls? what in that article is misrepresenting Shia Islam?

    Was-salam

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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Quote Originally Posted by vinod View Post

    Can you be more specific pls? what in that article is misrepresenting Shia Islam?

    Was-salam

    Salaam Vinod,

    Why not, though did you notice that there is no reference provided too. Here we go.

    Since there is not a sinless Imam today, is it not especially fard now for all Shiites to join the Madhhab of Imam-i-Azam?

    The Shia Islam believes that there is always God's khalifa on earth, chosen by God till the judgment day. This allows continuous reform in the religion till the day of judgment and this is a very important point. For further explanation, please read my post number 52 here.

    The above article says that there is no Imam today, which is absolutely wrong. Imam Mahdi is here, though he is ghaib, he is still guiding the Ummah.

    During his absence, either we can do our own ijtihad if we are very capable and learned in Islam. Which very few of us are. Or do a taqlid of a very qualified mustahid. This mustahid has to be the level of Ayatollah. The requirement of becoming Ayatollah are very stringent and requires years and years of study either in the Najaf or Qoum, which have the proper training and learning centers.

    At a given time, there are about 15 to 20 Ayatollah. Also, one cannot do a taqlid of a dead person. This is required to allow reform in the religion as I have mentioned above, which is very important. Since, Imam abu-Hanifa is dead so one cannot do his taqlid in Shia Islam, such as one cannot do taqlid of Imam Khomeini as he is dead too.

    You will find in a household, the father might do the taqlid of Ayatollah Sistani, the mother might do the taqlid of Ayatollah Khamenei and the son might do the taqlid of Ayatollah Fadhl. Each one in the household will pick his/her own Ayatollah for taqlid as each one is allowed to pick his/her own religion. But no one will do taqlid of Imam Khomeini and Imam abu-Hanifa as they are both dead.

    Though, there is a caution here. The iman is defined by rasool Allah and he has left us the Holy Koran. So, no mustahid is allowed to touch iman. The taqlid to a mustahid is for jurisprudence (fiqh) only. The reform is not required in iman, but the reform is required in the jurisprudence.

    Another caution, when any dead ulema or some of the living ulemas are mentioned to a average Shia, he/she is not aware of them. The iman is defined by rasool Allah and the Holy Koran, and since everyone has Holy Koran at home. Than the average shia only for his/her figh relies on his/her mustahid, so he/she is not interest in other ulemas. Once a mustahid is picked by an individual, than that individual is only allowed to change that mustahid, after the death of that mustahid. This is for the individual not to play with the fiqh, thus allowing him/her to pick and choose constantly different mustahid to meet his/her current needs.

    Wa' Salaam

    Mohamed
    Last edited by aladdin; 13th April 2007 at 19:42.

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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Thanks for that. But what do you make of what the two narrations itself have to say? From what you wrote, I understand that past scholars and past scholars and nobody relies on them for their current practices.

    You find a top notch Shiite scholar of the past era praising a top notch Sunni scholar of the same era. Many of the same Imam's works have gone into the making of the hanafi school, which does not dismiss the saheeh hadith. Surely, at the very least, we can say that there was a lot of respect for each other atleast in the past if not in the present. You may be right, that over time, Shia Islam and Sunni Islam drifted apart from each other quite vastly.

    Was-salam

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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Salaam Vinod,

    A mustahid will do his learning from all past scholar from all Muslims sources, a layman like me who does the taqlid of a mustahid will only rely for his figh on one mustahid. Out of interest I might study here and there.

    It will be wrong to say that the nobody relies on the past scholars. It is like saying that the current judicial system in UK doesn't rely on the old English common law. The reform in the law continuous and this reform is an ongoing thing, but the underlying principles are based on the old English common law and the past reform to that law, which serves as precedent to the current law. But the current law keeps on reforming to keep up with the alive and dynamic society. This is how the figh of Shia Islam works.

    Nobody is denying that both imam abu-Hanifa and imam Malikee were the students of imam Jaffar al-Sadiq the sixth imam and his father imam Baqir the fifth imam. My understanding is the other two imam of ahl-Sunna, namely imam Shafie and imam Hambali were the students of the first two imam of ahl-Sunna. So, basically all four imam of ahl-Sunna were the students of the imam Jaffar and imam Baqir.

    There is no doubt that scholars from both side of the isles, praise each other and learn from each other. At the end of the day, we are all Muslims. But the imammat for the Shias didn't stop at imam Jaffar the sixth imam, it continued on to the present imam Mahdi, who is still alive and guiding the Ummah. Also, doing a taqlid of a mustahid who is not dead allows reform in the religion. Relying on a dead imam chokes the reform in the religion.

    Wa' Salaam

    Mohamed
    Last edited by aladdin; 14th April 2007 at 08:01.

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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Salam Aladdin,
    A mustahid will do his learning from all past scholar from all Muslims sources, a layman like me who does the taqlid of a mustahid will only rely for his figh on one mustahid. Out of interest I might study here and there.
    What's a mustahid?

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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Salam Aladdin,

    What's a mustahid?

    Salaam brother Ron,

    A mustahid is the rank of Ayatollah, such as Ayatollah Sistani. And, this from his site about taqlid:

    Source


    Inaugurating the Dialogue on Taqleed, my father said:

    - Let me first explain to you what is taqleed.

    Taqleed is the following, by a lay person, of a Jurist in matters of religious practice. Thus, you apply the Jurist’s legal opinion (fatwa). It is as if you have put the responsibility squarely on the Jurist’s shoulders, in that he will stand accountable before Allah insofar as your compliance with his fatwa is concerned.

    * Why do we do taqleed?

    - By now, you know that The Creator is the source of The Law. He prescribed for you certain acts you should do and others you should not do. However, where to draw the line is not so clear-cut. That said, you may be able to know some of His commands and prohibitions, depending on your upbringing and environment at large.

    As you may know, Islamic shari’a law has covered all aspects of your life. Thus, it has stipulated for each aspect a number of rulings. How are you going to know the demarcations of these rulings while you go about your life? How would you know what is halal to act upon it and what is haraam to shun it?

    I wonder, do you have to resort for every incidence, be it minor or major, to the legal proof to be able to deduce a legal judgement?

    * Why not?

    - There is a yawning gap between your time and that of the early days of Islam. Matters have further been complicated due to the fact that many legal texts were lost; the language and writing style, and norms of expression have changed; the role of pseudo transmitters, who concocted many hadiths (Prophetic traditions) was damaging; this in turn has led to the problem of who is and who is not genuine among the transmitters of hadith. All these have made the process of reaching at a legal opinion the more difficult.

    However, let us assume that you were able to ascertain the veracity of the transmitters of any legal text and that you were able to understand the meaning of the terminology used. Do you think that you would be able to discern the multifaceted and complex science of jurisprudence? And would you be able to arrive at what you need to understand?

    * So, what should I do?

    - You should turn to the experts in this field, i.e. the jurists, and derive what you need to know of legal judgements from them. That is, you emulate them. This is not the exclusive reserve of jurisprudence, rather the norm in every science and discipline. Modern civilization has it that you find the principle of specialized professions in every discipline that you turn to when in need.

    Let us take an example. Let it be from the realm of medicine. Should you fall ill, God forbids, what would you do?

    * I would consult a doctor and explain to him the symptoms of my illness. He could then prescribe for me the appropriate medicine.

    - Why don’t you diagnose your illness and prescribe the medicine?

    * I ‘m not a doctor.

    - The same goes for jurisprudence. You need to consult a jurist to be able to know the bounds of Allah’s injunctions. You may need to seek his specialist knowledge in solving your legal problems, should you have any. This works in exactly the same way when you seek the specialist knowledge of the doctor and enlist his help in curing your illness.

    Since you spare no effort in looking for an experienced doctor in his field of specialization, you will need to look for the most knowledgeable amongst the jurists to follow. This is so because you need his expertise to explain to you religious matters and show you how to act upon them as he sees fit.

    * How would I know that a particular alim is a jurist, and whether he is the most erudite and the best in the field?

    - Let me put it this way: How would you know that a particular doctor is the best in his field to trust his medical judgement?

    * I would be able to know after asking those who are concerned with and experts in medical matters. I could also know him through his scientific prowess and widespread good reputation among the generality.

    - Precisely! By the same means, you should be able to know the jurists or the most erudite among them.

    You may ask a committed Muslim who is known to be of impeccable character, trustworthy, just, knowledgeable and expert in knowing the scientific level of people in a particular discipline.

    Popularity of the jurist which sets him in a different league from his peers, so much so that this leads to certainty as regards his juridical prowess and knowledge, is another avenue.

    * Are there any other conditions, apart from that of juridical excellence, that should be present in the jurist we should follow?

    - He should be a man, adult, sane, believer, just, living not dead, of pure pedigree, and should not be prone to mistakes, forgetfulness, and inattention.


    * Well. Here I am, a fully fledged man. I now know something about taqleed. What else should I do?

    - You should follow the most erudite among the jurists of your time. Act upon his fatwa in the different spheres of your life. They could be rulings relating to acts of worship, such as wudhu, ghusl, salah, sawm, hajj, khums, zakat and so on. You should also act upon his legal opinion in matters concerning transactions, such as buying and selling, marriage, banking, will, waqf, etc.

    I joined my father in numerating many other examples:

    * Enjoining good and forbidding evil, belief in Allah, His apostles and messengers and ..

    - No, belief in God and His unity, the prophethood of our Prophet Mohammad (s.a.w), the imamate of the twelve Imams, and resurrection are matters outside the remit of taqleed. They are of the fundamentals of religion. A Muslim has to believe in them unequivocally, leading up to belief in Allah, using one’s own effort and what intellectual power Allah has instilled in you to reach personal satisfaction and certainty in the matter.


    * Well. Do I have the right to follow a jurist who is less knowledgeable?

    - You can, provided that you know of no difference in the fatwa of the jurist you follow and the most knowledgeable one in the questions you need to act upon.

    * Suppose I chose to follow the most erudite among the jurists and it happened that he had no fatwa on certain matters concerning me, or he had a fatwa, but I was not aware of it, what should I do?

    - You rely on the fatwa of the next most knowledgeable.

    * What, if the rest were all of the same calibre insofar as juristic knowledge is concerned?

    - You may consult the one who is more cautious than the others in passing judgement.

    * Should they all be of the same degree of godliness and caution, what should I do?

    - You may act upon the fatwa of any one of them, except in certain situations, where you should act according to ihtiyat (Precaution - a level of legal judgement) that I can’t explain to you right now.

    * All right. If need be, I can consult the doctor to know his opinion on the state of my health. How would I know the fatwa of the jurist I follow so that I can act upon it? Do I have to consult him on every occasion?

    - There are few ways by which you may know his fatwa. You may ask him directly. You may ask other people whom you trust. You may consult his books, especially his treatise on articles of religious practice (Risalah Amaliyah), if you were sure of the authenticity of the copy you have.

    * If this is the case, I need not look beyond this house, for I cannot find a more trustworthy person than you. Can I ask for your help in knowing the fatwa of my religious authority (jurist)?

    I could see a broad smile on the face of my father; he sat straight and the spark in his eyes was suggesting that we would begin a lively discussion.

    * Shall we start with prayer.

    - Why not! prayer, however, requires man to be ceremonially clean.

    * So, what renders human beings impure?

    - What renders humans impure are two things:

    1. Material things, such as najis things, i.e. tangible matters.

    2. Immaterial things that are contingent on certain actions; if done, you need to perform wudhu, ghusl, or tayamum to remove the impurity. These are things like janabah, haydh, istihadha (Undue menses), touching a dead body, etc.

    However, before prayer, we need to know najis things. Also, we need to know the purifying agents to ensure the purity of the body from that which may have defiled it.

    We can then stop over certain occurrences, such as going to the toilet, breaking wind, sleep, etc. that require wudhu or tayamum.

    We may then resume the conversation on things such as janabah, haydh, nifas (bleeding that occurs after childbirth, miscarriage, or abortion), etc. that require ghusl or tayamum.

    Thus, eliminating from our way all that which may forestall our effort to seek nearness to Allah through prayer. This may make us taste the joy of standing before God, and chanting His Glory and Praise. That we may draw solace and peace of mind from being in His audience, and singing His love and praise.

    After those topics, we may turn to fasting, hajj, etc.

    * So, we shall start discussing najis things.

    - Yes, tomorrow. Inshallah (God willing).

    * Inshallah.

    I do the taqlid of Ayatollah Sistani, and many a time I have sent him an email asking questions. And, every time he has responded back in his own hand writing. His staff sends back his reply as an attachment to the email.

    Wa' Salaam

    Mohamed
    Last edited by aladdin; 14th April 2007 at 15:28.

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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Salaam brother Ron,

    If you have any further questions, or brother Vinod on anyone else, please let me know.

    The caution here is not to do taqlid of a dead person, as it will stifle the reform in the religion.

    Wa' Salaam

    Mohamed

    BTW, I would prefer to be called by my name Mohamed, or abu-Anwar. Thanks.

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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Salam Mohamed,
    A mustahid is the rank of Ayatollah, such as Ayatollah Sistani. And, this from his site about taqlid
    What does it mean?

    Regards

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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Salam Mohamed,

    What does it mean?

    Regards

    Salaam brother Ron,

    I am lost and not sure of your question. In English you might call the mustahid a scholar and/or a jurist.

    I have posted about taqlid from the Ayatollah site, which gives the definition of a mustahid, which I have highlighted in red and blue colors. The above article calls a mustahid a jurist, it also gives the qualifications required for someone to be a mustahid.

    Wa' Salaam

    Mohamed
    Last edited by aladdin; 14th April 2007 at 15:56.

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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Being a Mujtahid is not a Shiats monopoly and consensus (ijma) can be reached without an infallible Imam as taught from the credo of Imam I Azam, Imam-i-Muhammad Shaibani, Imam-i-Abu Yusuf, Imam Malik, Imam Shafi, Imam Hanbal and all being in agreement with the credo as taught from Imam-i-Baqir, Zayd-i-Shahid, Imam-i-Jafar Sadiq and Imam-i-Musa Kazim and according to the Shiite Credo a person who denies them must be a disbeliever.

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    Default Re: IMAM-I-AZAM PRAISED BY SHIAT SCHOLARS

    Quote Originally Posted by Ron View Post
    Salam Mohamed,

    What does it mean?

    Regards
    It is an anglocised politically correct sounding term for Mujtahid. In case people confuse it with Mujahid and there-by affiliate it with Jihad...thereby affiliating it with Osama B Laden and thereby affiliate it with Terrorism and thereby affiliating it with Islam and there-by affiliate it being a terror to proclaim war against...

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