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the religion OF Jesus vs. the religion ABOUT Jesus: LATTER props former up...
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    ecumenical worker bee Nirvana's Avatar
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    Cool the religion OF Jesus vs. the religion ABOUT Jesus: LATTER props former up...

    Take a red-letter edition of the Christian Bible or of just the New Testament, in which the words of Jesus are printed in red, and the rest of the words are printed in black. You will find both the Religion of Jesus and the Religion About Jesus there.

    Liberal-minded Christians tend to be more interested in what Jesus taught than in what the Church taught about Jesus (I'm in this group.). "Evangelical" Christians seem to be more into the Religion About Jesus. Historically, the Catholic Religion was an odd mixture of both, but manifested itself (outside the monasteries) mainly as a religion about Jesus (and Mary).

    Historically, the Christian churches have spent most of their time and energy building up the body of the Church. But this religion about Jesus has helped keep the Message of Jesus alive. And that's a good thing.

    Are there any Muslim parallels anyone can share?

    How can a liberal Christian, who is fundamentally interested in the Religion of Jesus, benefit from coming over to an understanding of the Islamic Message? And how can these Quakers, broad-church Episcopalians, Church of Christ members, etc., synthesize the messages of Christ and Muhammed? It's hard to forge new memories without some reference points to ideas and memories you carry with you from other traditions.

    Note: Emphases can change from generation to generation. Some churches that now tend to stress the unique divinity of Jesus over his more mystical teachings once emphasized his teachings about the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man.
    All which isn't singing is mere talking,
    and all talking's talking to oneself.
    —e e cummings

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    Default Re: the religion OF Jesus vs. the religion ABOUT Jesus: LATTER props former up...

    The Quran and the Sunnah of Our Holy Prophet as the "Walking Quran" are the only infallible institutions manifest to Muslims, not from a Mosque, the Clergy or Charitable organisation. Where-as the Infallibility of Church in Christianity is supreme, overuling scripture, the cause for major schisms within Christendom religously and secularly.

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    Banned aladdin's Avatar
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    Default Re: the religion OF Jesus vs. the religion ABOUT Jesus: LATTER props former up...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nirvana View Post
    Liberal-minded Christians tend to be more interested in what Jesus taught than in what the Church taught about Jesus (I'm in this group.)

    The Bible is constantly being altered to what Jesus taught. So, how you know what really Jesus taught?

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    Senior Member Hannahh's Avatar
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    Default Re: the religion OF Jesus vs. the religion ABOUT Jesus: LATTER props former up...

    The Sunna of the prophet is basically "about" his practice and it is modeled just as Isa's (SAW, Jesus Christ to you) is modeled. The actual law that Isa presented however was the Mosaic Law. Islam is the abrogation of several important principles within that (Hebrew Orthodoxy) and the continuation of a few important issues including the continuation of circumcision (which was NEVER abrogated by Isa) and certain dietary laws (pork and other "sacrificial" animal foods, again not abrogated by Isa either).

    The Hebrews who remained "Jewish" did so out of ethnic pride and ethnic loyalty and to a degree, jealousy over not being given the choice of "fatherhood" of Isa when Miriam (pbuh) was taken into the Temple in order to control who would have paternal rights over the prophet they knew she was destined to produce. To make matters worse for the Hebrews who adhered to the Mosaic Law post Isa, another prophet was produced and not from their "traditional" line of Abraham (SAW) and Sarah (pbuh).

    To this day, Jews who adhere to the Mosaic Law do so in varying degrees from ultra Orthodox (those who attended the Holocaust symposium in Iran and oppose the state of Israel, Zionism and what it represents i.e. ethnic purity) to the liberal camps to the completely arreligious ethnic Jews who don't believe in the Creator at all and are like any old person of any ethnic variety that is athiestic or agnostic. I personally regard Judaism AND Christianity as "sects" of Islam.

    And some Jews have in fact reverted to Islam. Many more will probably follow if we all live that long to see the end of the Palestinian/Iraqi crisis. Big if though.

  5. #5

    Default Re: the religion OF Jesus vs. the religion ABOUT Jesus: LATTER props former up...

    Quote Originally Posted by Nirvana View Post
    Liberal-minded Christians tend to be more interested in what Jesus taught than in what the Church taught about Jesus (I'm in this group.). "Evangelical" Christians seem to be more into the Religion About Jesus. Historically, the Catholic Religion was an odd mixture of both, but manifested itself (outside the monasteries) mainly as a religion about Jesus (and Mary).
    Ahhh, the diversity of Christianity.

    Historically, the Christian churches have spent most of their time and energy building up the body of the Church. But this religion about Jesus has helped keep the Message of Jesus alive.

    The Romans were interested in the "christian" movement as a way of unification of the masses, & for political control.


    How can a liberal Christian, who is fundamentally interested in the Religion of Jesus, benefit from coming over to an understanding of the Islamic Message? And how can these Quakers, broad-church Episcopalians, Church of Christ members, etc., synthesize the messages of Christ and Muhammed?
    Islam is the contiuation & final chapter in God's revelation, & builds on the previous two sets of scripture. It is accurate & complete, whereas the other scriptures have fallen victim to alteration.

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    ecumenical worker bee Nirvana's Avatar
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    Thumbs up The religion ABOUT Jesus props up the religion OF Jesus: Therefore not Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by aladdin
    how you know what really Jesus taught?
    As for what Jesus really taught, much has survived. Basically he jump-started a new surge in the Judaic revolution in theistic religion: No longer was adulation for the golden-bodied pagan gods (not totally dissimilar to the rock stars and movie stars of today) to be a religious duty, but people were to repent (turn) and take on the yoke of loving their fellow human beings, mere ordinary mortals. Jesus led by word and example and has become, as St. Paul says, the firstfruits of those that slept. There is a Christian character informed by what Jesus taught. Christians KNOW what Jesus taught, because they have been reading, marking, and inwardly digesting those teachings all their lives. A large part of the Christian experience is to recount his teachings and life. Yes, Christians know what Jesus taught, because his teachings and what he represented have been handed down over the centuries.

    As to the accuracy of the scriptures themselves, most liberal Christians would not insist that they are 100% accurate in every detail, just pretty reliable stuff. Of course, there are different accounts by several authors, and liberal Christians have no problem with critical textual criticism of the gospels. Scholars can even dialogue with each other about WHY such-and-such is stressed or not mentioned in this gospel or that. But they agree on the accuracy of most of the sayings of Jesus that are not about himself (The religion ABOUT Jesus). One must remember, moreover, that the ancients had very culturally ingrained oral traditions, handed down very reliably for generations. Suffice it to say that Jesus was a Messenger from God, at very least, and had an authenticity and power about him which produced such-and-such insights and teachings, among other things.

    I love music and I think Beethoven’s music is sublime. Now, Beethoven lived well before audio recording technology had been invented. Now imagine that some powerful emperor had managed, fifty years after Beethoven’s death, to have effected complete destruction of all of Beethoven’s manuscripts and all their copies. Still, the force of the genius of his music would have survived in the peoples’ memories and many people would have been able to transcribe anew from memory huge segments of his works. Of course, not every note would be there, and many parts of a given work would be missing, but still, the Music of Beethoven would have survived, and cooperation between the transcribers would pretty much leave Beethoven’s own fingerprints, as it were, on the body of work that was reclaimed from oblivion. Not nearly enough pages, but enough for future generations to KNOW “the music” of Beethoven. Such is the way I see the words of Jesus: They have been SAVED.

    The Christian experience is based on the four-legged stool of Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience. Classically, Christians have not put Scripture itself on the most high place on the Altar; that is a Protestant idea, not Catholic.

    Because Liberal Christians are more interested in what Jesus practiced and preached, rather than in questions about his divinity or other ultimately unprovable assertions, they are more open to other religions. In any Christian-Muslim dialogue, Muslims should know that Unitarians, Quakers, broad-church Episcopalians, and many liberal Roman Catholics and Lutherans are very open to receiving the Muslim Message of the glories of Allah and his Peace.

    IT IS IN THIS SPIRIT THAT I CONTRIBUTE TO THIS THREAD.


    Quote Originally Posted by Daoud
    Islam is the continuation & final chapter in God's revelation, & builds on the previous two sets of scripture. It is accurate & complete, whereas the other scriptures have fallen victim to alteration.
    Thanks, Daoud, for your response. I cannot argue with you on the point that Christian values have fallen victim on many occasions to alteration. Not too sure I understand your point about the scriptures themselves. I think a lot of translations are really gauche, but surely you're not advocating that the Christians should have their own [unchanging] Qu'ran?

    Thanks, Hannahh, Daoud, aladdin, and everyone else for your interest in this matter, which happens to interest me more than I can manage to say.

    PEACE to all my Islamic brothers and sisters!
    All which isn't singing is mere talking,
    and all talking's talking to oneself.
    —e e cummings

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    Banned aladdin's Avatar
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    Default Re: The religion ABOUT Jesus props up the religion OF Jesus: Therefore not Bad

    Quote Originally Posted by Nirvana View Post

    Thanks, Daoud, for your response. I cannot argue with you on the point that Christian values have fallen victim on many occasions to alteration. Not too sure I understand your point about the scriptures themselves. I think a lot of translations are really gauche, but surely you're not advocating that the Christians should have their own [unchanging] Qu'ran?

    Sure go ahead and base your salvation on ever changing book. Base your salvation on man made rules, which changes with the changes in the wind.

    As far is Beethoven’s music is sublime, my favorite is Rock & Roll, especially Black Sabbath and the atonement of sins through blood sacrifices. In Islam blood is unclean, whatsoever it source, meaning men, women and/or animal. Science is proven that blood can be very dangerous if not handled properly.

    Oh yes, in Christianity women are pollution when bleeding, though this practice was stopped by Christians in the 16th century according to the changes in the wind. Though the book still says so, but don't worry some day it would be removed from the book.

    As far as Jesus message is concerned, Jesus didn't bring anything new. No one in the Christian world is following his teaching, as his teaching's are impossible to follow. For this you can read up, "The 100 (A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History)" by Michael H. Hart.

    Jesus, himself didn't follow his own teachings. NT portrays Jesus as mentally deranged, a hypocrite and so forth. Even John calls Jesus a hypocrite. Please don't ask me the references, read the Bible carefully. If you insist I will provide you the references from the King James Version.

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    ecumenical worker bee Nirvana's Avatar
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    Lightbulb On the religion ABOUT THE DIVINITY of Jesus

    "Honorable Discussions, Open-Minded Dialogs"

    OOPS! I think my meaning has been misconstrued. What I am referring to is the Religion About THE DIVINITY of Jesus keeping alive the Religion of Jesus (The Religion he lived and taught).

    Hannahh, correct me if I misread you here:
    The Sunna of the prophet is basically "about" his practice and it is modeled just as Isa's (SAW, Jesus Christ to you) is modeled.
    I was not referring to anything about Jesus's practice when I referred in my muddling way to the religion ABOUT Jesus (thinking: about the divinity question). Jesus's practice and teachings are subsumed under the heading of the Religion OF Jesus.

    What I was trying to say was that Liberal Christians are more inclined to be motivated by what Jesus said and did, than being motivated by strict adherence to doctrines about his divinity and other uncompromising ideas. Part of what I was trying to say was that there were EXTREMELY moderate Christians that could benefit from learning a lot more about Islam.

    I'm tempted to repost the whole derned thread-starter here below the dotted line (changes in red and underlined):

    . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .
    Re: the religion OF Jesus vs. the religion ABOUT THE DIVINITY OF Jesus: LATTER props former up...
    Quote Originally Posted by Nirvana, changes underlined and red View Post
    Take a red-letter edition of the Christian Bible or of just the New Testament, in which the words of Jesus are printed in red, and the rest of the words are printed in black. You will find both the Religion of Jesus and the Religion About THE DIVINITY OF Jesus there.

    Liberal-minded Christians tend to be more interested in what Jesus taught and did than in what the Church taught about Jesus (I'm in this group.). "Evangelical" Christians seem to be more into the Religion About THE DIVINITY OF Jesus. Historically, the Catholic Religion was an odd mixture of both, but manifested itself (outside the monasteries) mainly as a religion about THE DIVINITY OF Jesus (and Mary).

    Historically, the Christian churches have spent most of their time and energy building up the body of the Church. But this religion about THE DIVINITY OF Jesus has helped keep the Message of Jesus alive. And that's a good thing.

    Are there any Muslim parallels anyone can share?

    How can a liberal Christian, who is fundamentally interested in the Religion of Jesus, benefit from coming over to an understanding of the Islamic Message? And how can these Quakers, broad-church Episcopalians, Church of Christ members, etc., synthesize the messages of Christ and Muhammed? It's hard to forge new memories without some reference points to ideas and memories you carry with you from other traditions.

    Note: Emphases can change from generation to generation. Some churches that now tend to stress the unique divinity of Jesus over his more mystical teachings once emphasized his teachings about the Fatherhood of God and the Brotherhood of Man.
    Last edited by Nirvana; 12th February 2007 at 04:38.
    All which isn't singing is mere talking,
    and all talking's talking to oneself.
    —e e cummings

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    Banned aladdin's Avatar
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    Default Re: On the religion ABOUT THE DIVINITY of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by Nirvana View Post

    What I was trying to say was that Liberal Christians are more inclined to be motivated by what Jesus said and did, than being motivated by strict adherence to doctrines about his divinity and other uncompromising ideas. Part of what I was trying to say was that there were EXTREMELY moderate Christians that could benefit from learning a lot more about Islam.

    Hi Nirvana,

    First of all who is Jesus to Christians? And, secondly who is Muhammad to Muslims.

    To Muslims, Muhammad is slave and servant of God.

    To you leaving Jesus divinity aside; Jesus is Prince of Peace and so forth. Am I correct in my assumption from your above posts?

    1. On what basis one base the above assumption, about Prince of Peace?

    2. Does one base the above assumption based on ever changing book?

    3. Creating a myth which never existed?

    4. As a form to control people?

    If one reads the gospels of Jesus in the present form, one can conclude:

    1. Jesus claimed that he didn't bring any new laws.

    2. He claimed that he came to uphold the laws.

    3. When he was presented with an adulteress, he failed to uphold the law. Thus, the Christians favorite quote about Jesus, "whoever cast the first stone..."

    4. In my reading of the gospel of Jesus, I have not come across, where Jesus upheld any of the Mosaic laws, though I might be wrong.

    5. Jesus was an angry, emotional, sometimes violent person:

    a: "The Temple money-changers revolt, where Jesus threw over the tables of the money-changers and drove the animals out of the temple using a whip."

    b. "Jesus used propaganda: his advice to "turn the other cheek" when slapped is - taken in the correct Biblical context - being cheeky! If someone hits you, he advised turning the other cheek to be sarcastic to them, to show them up as being heavy-handed in front of the other people watching."

    c. "Bible show Jesus as hypocrite, when tells his disciples to sell their garments and buy swords, but when one his disciple tried to use the sword. Thus, Christians another favorite quote of Jesus, "...perishing with the sword."

    d. "Paul calls Jesus a hypocrite in the book.

    Moses brought the Torah. What does the word, "Torah" means in the Semitic language. It means, "Laws". The Abrahamic religion is based on that God gave us laws to govern the societies. Without proper law and order it will be jungle out there.

    Muhammad also claimed that he didn't bring any new laws. But, Muhammad upheld the laws for 62 years, during his whole complete life. It is hard to uphold the laws, because it doesn't make you favorite of anyone. It is easier to preach peace, but preaching peace doesn't bring justice to the people who are subjected to oppression and persecution. Even to the point of daily justice on the street.

    To understand Muhammad, Einstein, Jesus, Paul, John, Buddha, Moses and so forth, a good reading is, "The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History", by Michael Hart.

    You would be surprised why he ranked Muhammad as number one, as the most influential persons in history.

    Mohamed
    Last edited by aladdin; 12th February 2007 at 09:40.

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    ecumenical worker bee Nirvana's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Re: On the religion ABOUT THE DIVINITY of Jesus

    Quote Originally Posted by aladdin (partial quotes) View Post


    First of all who is Jesus to Christians? And, secondly who is Muhammad to Muslims?

    To Muslims, Muhammad is slave and servant of God.
    Thanks, Aladdin, for your description of Who Muhammad is. My Answer about Jesus: To a very large number of Christians, Jesus is a Mystery, or Big Question, if you will. Many Christians take Jesus as the Big Brother both gone before to show us a better earthly way and to prepare a place for them, "the firstfruits" of them that slept (1 Cor. 15). Many Quakers, for instance, see Jesus as a beacon of "the Inner Light."

    As to your leaving Jesus's divinity aside; Jesus is Prince of Peace and so forth. Am I correct in my assumption from your above posts?

    On what basis does one base the above assumption, about the Prince of Peace?
    No, the Point I'm trying to make HERE is that many Christians, being modernists, are really only invested in what Jesus did and taught while he lived among us 2000 years ago, and leave the questions ABOUT JESUS' ULTIMATE SIGNIFICANCE to others who care to battle that out. And it's not so much that they never wonder about it, as much as it is that they don't feel that everyone has the capacity to FEEL THE SAME WAY about the same thing. In other words, different strokes for different folks.

    St. Luke's gospel uses Caesar as a paradigm for Christ; Luke portrays Christ as the rightful Prince of the world, in contradistinction to the Emperor Cult of imperial Rome. That's where this "Prince of Peace" title comes from. History, sir!

    In the first century, after the fall of the Roman republic, Caesar was proclaimed “saviour,” “son of God,” even “Lord and God.” Stories were even circulated about miracles the emperors allegedly performed. Augustus was reported to have made withered trees come to life and to have healed the sick. The emperor's pardon was even called “gospel.”

    With this spread of Emperor-worship, Luke presented the story of Jesus of Nazareth so that a person sincerely seeking salvation would discover the goal of his search in Jesus, not in Caesar.

    Luke's gospel sets Jesus’ birth in relation to a census called by Caesar Augustus, the first "emperor," and connects the beginning of his public ministry with the reign of Tiberius Caesar. There are many mentions of Caesar in the gospel; and, remember, Pontius Pilate governed under Caesar's will...

    Luke juxtaposes Caesar and Christ. The question then becomes: Who is the real Lord of the world? And THAT QUESTION confronts the reader of the first few centuries common era with a choice, a matter that would later incite persecution of Christians.

    ~ ~ ~


    Now, Aladdin, as to the Bible showing Jesus as hypocrite, when he tells his disciples to sell their garments and buy swords, that's one I never saw anywhere in the Bible. Perhaps you're referring to a noncanonical book whose authorship is questionable? Paul Never calls Jesus a hypocrite in the Bible, either.


    And WHY, may I ask, should I be surprised that A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History ranked Muhammad as "number one," as the most influential person in history? I am not responsible for the tradition in which I was brought up — nor are others responsible for their native traditions. I have an open mind and you seem to want to shut me out because you seem to see me as some sort of antagonist.

    "Honorable Discussions, Open-Minded Dialogs"
    All which isn't singing is mere talking,
    and all talking's talking to oneself.
    —e e cummings

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