How comes Meccan Mohammad is the last messenger

**goverim** · 4th July 2004, 05:06

1-Where s his seal .?
2-Had Golden Age (Usr-i Saadat) been realized at his time?
3-Why did he divide the moon ? Who said to him to divide the moon into two?

)
4-Muhammad is an adjective ,in Quran . Why is his name muhammad?
5-How comes his age is called to be end of the times?
6-How comes a man who rajms (killing one by throwing stones on her) a woman who made sex with another man, is called a real prophet?
7-why is ashub-ý keraam (his friends ) are so highened?was he looking for disciples as to be the last messenger of the last covenant,the thied temple?
etc.

Davidic

**Hischam Khan** · 4th July 2004, 06:18

<blockquote><hr> “1-Where s his seal .?” <hr></blockquote>

The “seal” is mentioned in the Qur’an, it is not something physical. I mentioned in my last post what its meaning is and its significance. It is a metaphor denoting that he is the last of the Prophets.

<blockquote><hr> “2-Had Golden Age (Usr-i Saadat) been realized at his time?” <hr></blockquote>

I think the people would have realised what state they were in compared to people before them. Perhaps, someone else can give a better answer to this though.

<blockquote><hr> “3-Why did he divide the moon ? Who said to him to divide the moon into two?

)” <hr></blockquote>

This is a Hadith and it was supposed to have been a sign for the rejecters. Signs were given to people by God through many Messengers. So, if this Hadith is correct than this is what its purpose was.

<blockquote><hr> “4-Muhammad is an adjective ,in Quran . Why is his name muhammad?” <hr></blockquote>

“Muhammad” is his appellation and his actual name is Ahmad. However, in Arabia one was more famously known by one’s appellation than by one’s name. For this reason he is called “Muhammad” (pbuh).

<blockquote><hr> “5-How comes his age is called to be end of the times?” <hr></blockquote>

Where do you get this from?

<blockquote><hr> “6-How comes a man who rajms (killing one by throwing stones on her) a woman who made sex with another man, is called a real prophet?” <hr></blockquote>

Don’t know where you got this idea from either.

<blockquote><hr> “7-why is ashub-ý keraam (his friends ) are so highened?was he looking for disciples as to be the last messenger of the last covenant,the thied temple?
etc.” <hr></blockquote>

Heightened by whom? If you mean God, the reason is that they fought in God’s way and aided the Prophet (pbuh). They obeyed him humbly and were pious believers. For this reason also, we Muslims revere them. They are also the intermediates between mankind and the Prophet (pbuh); they received the Message from the Prophet (pbuh) and conveyed it to humanity. For this, they deserve our respect.

regards

**goverim** · 4th July 2004, 07:44

His:The “seal” is mentioned in the Qur’an, it is not something physical. I mentioned in my last post what its meaning is and its significance. It is a metaphor denoting that he is the last of the Prophets.

Deal:My friend -Hischam:
Seal is not only a abstarct tradition in religions.seal of prophets exists in all traditions and seal has a physical aspect as well.For this tradition of all religions,mostly of jewry,Mohammad looked for a seal to prove himself to be the Real Prophet of Quran:but unfortunately he was neither the seal of prophets nor had the physical seal.

His:I think the people would have realised what state they were in compared to people before them. Perhaps, someone else can give a better answer to this though.

Deal:my friend ,how can u mean that usr-i ssadet was realised:After MeccAN MOHAMMAD ,the world was full of blood .what kind of "saadat" "golden age " it was.he no way brought peace to humans :he only brought blood to us :believers:arabs:turks mostly.

His:“3-Why did he divide the moon ? Who said to him to divide the moon into two?

)”

Deal:Meccan mohammad divided the moon into two just to prove that he is a real prophet

rophets never do such illusions.but illusionists job is it.Mohaamad knew the Schock-i Kummar verse in the quran . but Kuran never says to him divide the moon into two: in addition ,the moon hasnt been divided yet.

his:“5-How comes his age is called to be end of the times?”

Where do you get this from?

Answer:brother,,seal of prophet is the prpophet of tye end of the times ,as we know from all religious traditions.and i m asking you ,how can we name " the 1500 years ago " as the end of the times.
even sheba queen didnt come yet.

)

His:Heightened by whom? If you mean God, the reason is that they fought in God’s way and aided the Prophet (pbuh). They obeyed him humbly and were pious believers. For this reason also, we Muslims revere them. They are also the intermediates between mankind and the Prophet (pbuh); they received the Message from the Prophet (pbuh) and conveyed it to humanity. For this, they deserve our respect.

Answer:my friend ,Eshub-i Keraam is hightened by meccan mohammad because he wants to find disciples of mesiah from the traditions of holy bible.but meccan mohammad even doesnt know what the 12 disciples is ,so he makes the trick :hightening EShab-i Keram wishing them to be understood as the disciples of the messiah.of whom covenants were signed-saved (Quran)

Davidic

**Hischam Khan** · 4th July 2004, 09:58

<blockquote><hr> “Seal is not only a abstarct tradition in religions.” <hr></blockquote>

I don’t quite understand what you mean by “abstract tradition” but I explained what seal is. I think the meaning is very clear. In addition to this, if you look at the context in which the verse is revealed you will see that the point of mentioning it is clearly to indicate that Muhammad (pbuh) is the last of the Prophets.

I had explained the verses a while ago and only yesterday I posted a passage from the answer. Here it is:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

“…There had arisen a tradition or rather superstition in Arabia that a man is not allowed to marry the ex-wife of his adopted son and thus the Prophet (P) didn’t want to go ahead with this. Nevertheless he was obliged by God to do so for several reasons.

1 - “There can be no difficulty to the Prophet in what Allah has indicated to him as a duty. It was the practice (approved) of Allah amongst those of old that have passed away. And the command of Allah is a decree determined. “ (33:38)

2 - “Muhammad is not the father of any of your men” (Surah 33:40) - therefore it is not unnatural/ it is not like he is getting married to the ex-wife of his son, they were not related by blood, this was just a superstition created by man

3 – “but (he is) the Messenger of Allah, and the Seal of the Prophets” (Surah 33:40) - thus as a Messenger He is to obey God and it’s his duty to correct the mistakes of the people. Also, since he was the seal/last of the Prophets, if this superstition was not corrected, then it would have remained, possibly forever.

4 – “…and Allah has full knowledge of all things.” (Surah 33:40) - God knows fully for why He does things and He knew that had this not happened this would have remained).”

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

<blockquote><hr> “seal of prophets exists in all traditions and seal has a physical aspect as well.” <hr></blockquote>

Could you cite some examples? I know that the word “seal” is used a lot throughout times and it is also used a lot in the Bible but not in the same sense as in the Qur’an. If you are referring to a stamp, such as those used by kings, then that is physical. I’m sure there are other ways in which it is physical too, but it seems clear that the Qur’anic use of the word is not physical in anyway. Can you show how from the Qur’anic verse that cites this word, you get that this has to have a “physical aspect as well”?

<blockquote><hr> “For this tradition of all religions,mostly of jewry,Mohammad looked for a seal to prove himself to be the Real Prophet of Quran:but unfortunately he was neither the seal of prophets nor had the physical seal.” <hr></blockquote>

The Old Testament refers to “seal” but in a totally different way to that of the Qur’an.

You wrote:

” Mohammad looked for a seal to prove himself to be the Real Prophet of Quran”

I think what you are referring to is the ring which Muhammad (pbuh) used to stamp his letters before sending them off in order to authenticate them. So, this is what it was for; to authenticate the letters, otherwise people would not have accepted the letters. It was not because he wanted “to prove himself to be the real Prophet of the Qur’an”. The Qur’an was revealed to him and everyone knew this, hence he didn’t have to prove it.

<blockquote><hr> “my friend ,how can u mean that usr-i ssadet was realised:After MeccAN MOHAMMAD ,the world was full of blood .what kind of "saadat" "golden age " it was.he no way brought peace to humans :he only brought blood to us :believers:arabs:turks mostly.” <hr></blockquote>

How did he bring blood into the world? Blood also came in the world through Christians, should we blame this on Paul? Or are you referring to the battles Muhammad (pbuh) took part in? If yes, then I would suspect that you are aware of the fact that Prophets of God that had man power behind them always did fight? Didn’t Moses (pbuh) fight? Didn’t Joshua fight? In addition to this, didn’t David (pbuh) fight? Didn’t Solomon (pbuh) fight? They sure did. In fact, we are told that Moses (pbuh) got 12000 people killed in only one of his wars. My friend, this means that Moses (pbuh) got more people killed in one war than Muhammad (pbuh) did in all of his. No, we say that the Prophet (pbuh) brought about peace and truth. He rid a great part of the world from idol worship and he brought back, monotheism in its purest form. Through him, the Muslims became the biggest society of teetotallers (people that don’t imbibe alcohol which happens to be the biggest killer in the world today) in the world. It is clear that he brought a lot of benefit to the world; they are too many to mention. Peace be upon him!

You wrote:

<blockquote><hr> “His:“3-Why did he divide the moon ? Who said to him to divide the moon into two?

)” <hr></blockquote>

In the above, you make it look as though I asked that question whereas it was you who asked it. I guess this was just a mistake.

<blockquote><hr> “Meccan mohammad divided the moon into two just to prove that he is a real prophet” <hr></blockquote>

That is if the Ahadith is correct. It could be wrong.

<blockquote><hr> “prophets never do such illusions.but illusionists job is it” <hr></blockquote>

If the Hadith is correct, then who says that it is an illusion? I think the Ahadith does not say that he tricked them into thinking so. The following are two Hadith that refer to this incident:

Narrated Anas (R),that the Makkans requested Allah’s Messenger (sws) to show them a miracle, so he showed them the splitting of the moon.
(Bukhari, volume.4, Hadith No. 738)

Narrated by ‘Abdullah: Five things have passed: Al-Lizam (the punishment), the defeat of the Romans, the mighty grasp, the splitting of the moon, and the smoke”
(Bukhari, volume 6, Hadith No. 350)

None of the above say that it was an “illusion”. This criticism of yours is interesting though because the Pharaoh brought forth the same criticism against Moses (pbuh); that he was an “illusionist”.

<blockquote><hr> “but Kuran never says to him divide the moon into two: in addition ,the moon hasnt been divided yet.” <hr></blockquote>

Like I said, it is a Hadith that refers to it and this could be wrong. It is not something fundamental for the Muslims. If it is wrong, this does not prove Muhammad (pbuh) wrong but rather the narrators and or the compiler (whether they did it intentionally or unintentionally).

<blockquote><hr> “seal of prophet is the prpophet of tye end of the times ,as we know from all religious traditions.” <hr></blockquote>

Could you perhaps cite some of these traditions? The Qur’an certainly does not refer to him in the words “Prophet of the end of times”. If you think that the word “khâtam” (“seal”) from Surah 33:40 refers to him being a Prophet in “the end of times” then I’d like to see where in the verse this is indicated because I see no such indication.

<blockquote><hr> “and i m asking you ,how can we name " the 1500 years ago " as the end of the times.” <hr></blockquote>

I am asking you, when did I or the Muslims in general claim that it is?

<blockquote><hr> “even sheba queen didnt come yet.

)” <hr></blockquote>

Who says that a Queen of Sheba has to come?

<blockquote><hr> “my friend ,Eshub-i Keraam is hightened by meccan mohammad because he wants to find disciples of mesiah from the traditions of holy bible.” <hr></blockquote>

What basis do you have for this? The whole point of sending a Messenger is so that he is obeyed and followed. Just because a Prophet has companions, he’s supposed to be imitating Jesus (pbuh)? I think that’s absurd.

By the way, what is “Eshub-i-Keraam? Is it Turkish? Are you referring to the Sahabah-Ikraam? I think you are.

<blockquote><hr> “but meccan mohammad even doesnt know what the 12 disciples is ,so he makes the trick :hightening EShab-i Keram wishing them to be understood as the disciples of the messiah.of whom covenants were signed-saved (Quran)” <hr></blockquote>

What evidence do you have that the Prophet (pbuh) tried to trick people into thinking that his companions were Jesus’ (pbuh) disciples? Also, Jesus (pbuh) had the famous twelve disciples. Did Muhammad (pbuh) have that? Who had more followers? The Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did. So, these are clear differences that show that he wasn’t trying to imitate Jesus (pbuh).

**goverim** · 4th July 2004, 16:56

<blockquote><hr> “Seal is not only a abstarct tradition in religions.” <hr></blockquote>

I don’t quite understand what you mean by “abstract tradition” but I explained what seal is. I think the meaning is very clear. In addition to this, if you look at the context in which the verse is revealed you will see that the point of mentioning it is clearly to indicate that Muhammad (pbuh) is the last of the Prophets.

i meant its not a literary wordly aspect of itself-seal.there s a physical seal in all religious traditions.and meccan mohammad knows it so he ,to prove that he s last prophet ,uses both:
1-that the black thing at his back is the seal.
2-he had a metal seal
3-another seal production by falsifiyings

thman dropped the real seal of prophet into a well(water hole),and so the metal seal that we have today has been made instead of the droppred seal.
question:what kind of prophet is he that who cant keep his own prophetic seal.who is Othman to keep the seal.why does othman drops the seal into the well.why doesnt othman drop his shoe ,but the seal of the prophet.

4 – “…and Allah has full knowledge of all things.” (Surah 33:40) - God knows fully for why He does things and He knew that had this not happened this would have remained).”

<blockquote><hr> “seal of prophets exists in all traditions and seal has a physical aspect as well.” <hr></blockquote>

Could you cite some examples? I know that the word “seal” is used a lot throughout times and it is also used a lot in the Bible but not in the same sense as in the Qur’an. If you are referring to a stamp, such as those used by kings, then that is physical. I’m sure there are other ways in which it is physical too, but it seems clear that the Qur’anic use of the word is not physical in anyway. Can you show how from the Qur’anic verse that cites this word, you get that this has to have a “physical aspect as well”?

Dear Hischam,i cant tell u the secret here,but all religions know the last prophet is the seal of prophets:but no religions have become moslem by believing meccan mohammad to the real last messenger.only we ignorant peoples,arabs,turks,fire-idolators etc believed or forced to believe in meccan mohammad.believers of True religions like jews and christians never believed in mohammad of mecca as a real or the last prophet.even Shias didnt believe it.seal is something more diferent than what poeple take it to be.

You wrote:

” Mohammad looked for a seal to prove himself to be the Real Prophet of Quran”

I think what you are referring to is the ring which Muhammad (pbuh) used to stamp his letters before sending them off in order to authenticate them. So, this is what it was for; to authenticate the letters, otherwise people would not have accepted the letters. It was not because he wanted “to prove himself to be the real Prophet of the Qur’an”. The Qur’an was revealed to him and everyone knew this, hence he didn’t have to prove it.

yes my friend :By that metal ring seal of meccan mohammad , they wanted to demonstrate that "he has the seal of prophets ,thereby meccan mohammad is the last prophet."But no other traditions believed in him ,mostly the two heavenly-holy religions :christianity and jewry

<blockquote><hr> “my friend ,how can u mean that usr-i ssadet was realised:After MeccAN MOHAMMAD ,the world was full of blood .what kind of "saadat" "golden age " it was.he no way brought peace to humans :he only brought blood to us :believers:arabs:turks mostly.” <hr></blockquote>

How did he bring blood into the world? Blood also came in the world through Christians, should we blame this on Paul? Or are you referring to the battles Muhammad (pbuh) took part in? If yes, then I would suspect that you are aware of the fact that Prophets of God that had man power behind them always did fight? Didn’t Moses (pbuh) fight? Didn’t Joshua fight? In addition to this, didn’t David (pbuh) fight? Didn’t Solomon (pbuh) fight? They sure did. In fact, we are told that Moses (pbuh) got 12000 people killed in only one of his wars. My friend, this means that Moses (pbuh) got more people killed in one war than Muhammad (pbuh) did in all of his. No, we say that the Prophet (pbuh) brought about peace and truth. He rid a great part of the world from idol worship and he brought back, monotheism in its purest form. Through him, the Muslims became the biggest society of teetotallers (people that don’t imbibe alcohol which happens to be the biggest killer in the world today) in the world. It is clear that he brought a lot of benefit to the world; they are too many to mention. Peace be upon him!

but my bro:he was named to be the prophet of shalom:religion of shalom.

You wrote:

<blockquote><hr> “prophets never do such illusions.but illusionists job is it” <hr></blockquote>

<blockquote><hr> “but Kuran never says to him divide the moon into two: in addition ,the moon hasnt been divided yet.” <hr></blockquote>

Like I said, it is a Hadith that refers to it and this could be wrong. It is not something fundamental for the Muslims. If it is wrong, this does not prove Muhammad (pbuh) wrong but rather the narrators and or the compiler (whether they did it intentionally or unintentionally).

my friend,i am saying that Meccan Muhammad (i dont mean the real Quran Prophet Muhammad)made the illusion or they produced a hadith that they splitted the moon.
And i am saying prophets never does such things.they do coz they r no real Quran Muhammad.they want to prove themselves to be related to holy quran verses:splitting of the moon.God never says split the moon .God is not playing games with humans.

<blockquote><hr> “seal of prophet is the prpophet of tye end of the times ,as we know from all religious traditions.” <hr></blockquote>

Could you perhaps cite some of these traditions? The Qur’an certainly does not refer to him in the words “Prophet of the end of times”. If you think that the word “khâtam” (“seal”) from Surah 33:40 refers to him being a Prophet in “the end of times” then I’d like to see where in the verse this is indicated because I see no such indication.

Mohammad is Krishna in Hindu
Maitreya in Budism
Christ or messiah in Christianity
Massiah in Jewry
Also Shiloh in jewry
Soishiant in Zoroasters
and Mahdi of so called islam:

Kuran doesnt write the name "mahdi" ,Kuran says "muhammad":but because meccan mohammad stole the name they had to find another name for the real muhammad and they jumped on the name mahdi.

<blockquote><hr> “and i m asking you ,how can we name " the 1500 years ago " as the end of the times.” <hr></blockquote>

I am asking you, when did I or the Muslims in general claim that it is?

how can u ask this question,isnt muhammad the propehet of the end of times?570s possibly isnt the end of times ,but it may be now end of the times.so how comes he can be the prophet of end of the times.

<blockquote><hr> “even sheba queen didnt come yet.

)” <hr></blockquote>

Who says that a Queen of Sheba has to come?

))) i say ,torah says ,bible says ,and quran says ,hierosgamos says as well.

))

<blockquote><hr> “my friend ,Eshub-i Keraam is hightened by meccan mohammad because he wants to find disciples of mesiah from the traditions of holy bible.” <hr></blockquote>

What basis do you have for this? The whole point of sending a Messenger is so that he is obeyed and followed. Just because a Prophet has companions, he’s supposed to be imitating Jesus (pbuh)? I think that’s absurd.

NOoooooooo,the case isnt what u say.ashub-i keraam purposefully heightened by mohammad,not by others .coz muhammad of mecca must prove himself to be the messiah,of the traditions .messiah is needed to hAVE 12 disciples .but there were no real disciples.so he aimed to make up of false disciples out of his friends.

By the way, what is “Eshub-i-Keraam? Is it Turkish? Are you referring to the Sahabah-Ikraam? I think you are.

yes "Sahabah-i Keraam"

<blockquote><hr> “but meccan mohammad even doesnt know what the 12 disciples is ,so he makes the trick :hightening EShab-i Keram wishing them to be understood as the disciples of the messiah.of whom covenants were signed-saved (Quran)” <hr></blockquote>

What evidence do you have that the Prophet (pbuh) tried to trick people into thinking that his companions were Jesus’ (pbuh) disciples? Also, Jesus (pbuh) had the famous twelve disciples. Did Muhammad (pbuh) have that? Who had more followers? The Holy Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) did. So, these are clear differences that show that he wasn’t trying to imitate Jesus (pbuh).

my friend :mohammad didnt know what disciples are .even christianity is wrong in this matter .

Disciples are 12 "Seal", "Point" , "important" prophets who will obey The last messenger whose covenants were taken .

slm

Davidic

**Hischam Khan** · 4th July 2004, 20:57

<blockquote><hr> “i meant its not a literary wordly aspect of itself-seal.there s a physical seal in all religious traditions.and meccan mohammad knows it so he ,to prove that he s last prophet ,uses both:
1-that the black thing at his back is the seal.
2-he had a metal seal
3-another seal production by falsifiyings

thman dropped the real seal of prophet into a well(water hole),and so the metal seal that we have today has been made instead of the droppred seal.
question:what kind of prophet is he that who cant keep his own prophetic seal.who is Othman to keep the seal.why does othman drops the seal into the well.why doesnt othman drop his shoe ,but the seal of the prophet.” <hr></blockquote>

This is not true and anyone with even the least bit of knowledge of language and literature should know this. The word “seal” is clearly used metaphorically in the Qur’anic verse and in no other way. It cannot be taken literally, unless you are trying to say he is a “seal” which is absurd. Can a human being be a seal in the literal sense? Come on, this has got to be a choke! It can’t be taken literally. It’s as I said; a figurative usage; “…he is the seal of the Prophets” clearly means that he is the “last of the Prophets”. I cannot see how it can mean anything else. So far you haven’t been able to convince me with your explanations in the least, sorry. You also did not show me your basis for this from the Qur’an. So, I don’t even think that your “idea” is even worthy of consideration.

As to the “seal” that the Prophet (pbuh) was supposed to have had, again this is from a Hadith and I’m not sure whether it is reliable. It is very clear that the primary source of Islam; the Qur’an does not have any information on the Prophet (pbuh) having any seal. As I said, the “seal” the Qur’an talks of is not literal it’s metaphorical.

The “metal seal” that he used was to prove that his letters were his when he sent them off. This was necessary or else the people to whom they were sent (kings etc) would not accept them. In those times, seals were needed to authenticate letters. Only for this reason did he take such a seal. Kings had such seals too, are you going to say that all these kings tried to prove that they are the “seal of the Prophets”? Man, the word “seal” that is used in the Qur’an is not related in any sort of way to any physical seal! Why don’t you prove that it needs to be a physical seal from the Qur’an?

<blockquote><hr> “Dear Hischam,i cant tell u the secret here,but all religions know the last prophet is the seal of prophets” <hr></blockquote>

Well if you are not going to produce any sort of evidence for your claims then what you are saying is not even worth listening to or reading. I’m sorry my friend, but anyone can make any claim and these claims only become worthy of consideration once the proof is produced.

<blockquote><hr> “but no religions have become moslem by believing meccan mohammad to the real last messenger.” <hr></blockquote>

You mean nobody from other religions? This is totally untrue. If that is what you mean. We know that there are a great many Christians, Hindus agnostics and even Jews that have become Muslims. Islam is the fastest growing religion. As for those that do not enter, there can be reasons for this. Some might have misunderstood the Message, others might have been too lazy to even search for the truth, yet others might have been so prejudiced that they didn’t even want to allow the Qur’an to present itself and speak for itself and others again might have read it but with a biased, prejudiced mind. There can be many reasons. I can place the same criticism before you in regards to Christianity; that if it is the true religion then how come other religions haven’t entered into it? How come it is losing followers in such a massive scale? I had a teacher at College who is a doctor in religion, studied at Cambridge (or Oxford, I’m not totally sure anymore) and is also a Priest and he told us that Christians see Islam as a threat because it is quickly taking over from Christianity in becoming the biggest religion on earth. People estimate that in the next 50 years Islam will be the biggest religion in the world. It is said that Islam is already the biggest religion in the world in regards to practical followers only not yet on consensus where even the most unreligious people would sign that they are “Christian”.

<blockquote><hr> “only we ignorant peoples,arabs,turks,fire-idolators etc believed or forced to believe in meccan mohammad.” <hr></blockquote>

This is ridiculous. I don’t know what you mean by “fire idolaters” but if you are referring to the pre-Islamic Arabs then you should know that your so-called “clever” Christian Western world was also once a polytheistic people. So let’s not get carried away. The Arabs are not ignorant people. Actually our Western countries learnt from these Arabs. In the “Dark Ages” in the West, whom did the West turn to? The West might not even have come to where they are today had they not taken the knowledge from these Arabs.

<blockquote><hr> “believers of True religions like jews and christians never believed in mohammad of mecca as a real or the last prophet.” <hr></blockquote>

Let’s try to be a little more Scholarly then that. You know very well that anyone can make comments like that; calling some religions “true religions” and others “false”. Your comments are your own opinion and that’s all. They don’t hold any weight whatsoever. The Jews also do not believe in Jesus (pbuh) to be a true Prophet, much less God. Since their religion is a “true religion”, I guess they must then be correct, right? I think you have just bitten yourself in the tongue! By the way my friend; “bitten yourself in the tongue” here is a metaphorical usage just like the usage of “seal” in the Qur’an. I thought I’d mention that in case you misunderstand that too.

<blockquote><hr> “even Shias didnt believe it.seal is something more diferent than what poeple take it to be.” <hr></blockquote>

I think you are incorrect about this. Shias do believe Muhammad (pbuh) to be the last of the Prophets. They believe in Imams that came after him but they do accept that he was the last Prophet (pbuh).

<blockquote><hr> “yes my friend :By that metal ring seal of meccan mohammad , they wanted to demonstrate that "he has the seal of prophets ,thereby meccan mohammad is the last prophet."But no other traditions believed in him ,mostly the two heavenly-holy religions :christianity and jewry” <hr></blockquote>

My friend, I have to be frank with you, I think you are ascribing falsehoods to the Prophet (pbuh). I already asked you for proof and you couldn’t give it and even admitted it (if I didn’t misunderstand you). Do you have any sort of evidence for the Prophet (pbuh) having taken this seal for the purpose of proving that he is the “seal of the Prophets”? Did he say that this proves it so? Are you just making false accusations?

After explaining that there were many other Prophets that made war (in fact any Prophet that had a state behind him did), and after citing some of the benefits that Muhammad (pbuh) brought to the world, goverim responded:

<blockquote><hr> “but my bro:he was named to be the prophet of shalom:religion of shalom.” <hr></blockquote>

So were the other Prophets and we’re saying that they were. They fought for the implementation of truth, justice and peace. Fighting sometimes becomes necessary. Or are you trying to say that Moses, Joshua, David, Solomon (pbut) etc… were all false?

<blockquote><hr> “my friend,i am saying that Meccan Muhammad (i dont mean the real Quran Prophet Muhammad)made the illusion or they produced a hadith that they splitted the moon.” <hr></blockquote>

Perhaps you lack knowledge of the transmission of Ahadith because the Holy Prophet (pbuh) never produced Hadith and never obliged his followers to do so either. They did it on their own accord because of the importance of the Prophet (pbuh). This was done in order to get a detailed account of his life. They are reports ascribed to the Prophet (pbuh). There are those that may be correctly ascribed to him and those that may not. If they are not then it is not him that is to blame. This should be easy enough to understand. If people ascribe things wrongly to you, should we blame you for it?

<blockquote><hr> “they want to prove themselves to be related to holy quran verses:splitting of the moon.” <hr></blockquote>

This is getting so silly; everybody knows that the Qur’an was revealed to the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh). Again, you didn’t give any evidence for your “idea”. You didn’t produce the basis from where you get this. To whom would you say that the Qur’an was revealed if not to Muhammad (pbuh)? Did it just fall out of the sky one day and lie in the desert?

<blockquote><hr> “Mohammad is Krishna in Hindu
Maitreya in Budism
Christ or messiah in Christianity
Massiah in Jewry
Also Shiloh in jewry
Soishiant in Zoroasters
and Mahdi of so called islam:” <hr></blockquote>

Would you like to show how he is all those figures? - Because anyone can say that about their famous hero. For example, I can claim that Muhammad (pbuh) is all those personalities. We can even claim that the Pope is all these when we speak without producing evidence. This is because when we speak without evidence anything becomes easy meat.

<blockquote><hr> “Kuran doesnt write the name "mahdi" ,Kuran says "muhammad":but because meccan mohammad stole the name they had to find another name for the real muhammad and they jumped on the name mahdi.” <hr></blockquote>

Look, the Qur’an was revealed to Muhammad (pbuh) and that is why it refers to him as “Muhammad”. As to this Mahdi figure, I already told you that he is only referred to in unreliable Ahadith and so we can well be justified in calling that an invention much like your new idea, only yours I must say is much worse. Sorry.

<blockquote><hr> “how can u ask this question,isnt muhammad the propehet of the end of times?570s possibly isnt the end of times ,but it may be now end of the times.so how comes he can be the prophet of end of the times.” <hr></blockquote>

None of us call Muhammad (pbuh) “the Prophet of the end of times”. We say that he is “the last of the Prophets” but he is not in the end of times. We don’t know when the end of times will be; neither did Muhammad (pbuh), nor your Master Jesus (pbuh).

<blockquote><hr> “

))) i say ,torah says ,bible says ,and quran says ,hierosgamos says as well.

))” <hr></blockquote>

My friend, you have already said a lot of things but can you perhaps produce some evidence for your claims? Your views are not even worthy of consideration until you begin to produce some evidence.

<blockquote><hr> “NOoooooooo,the case isnt what u say.ashub-i keraam purposefully heightened by mohammad,not by others .coz muhammad of mecca must prove himself to be the messiah,of the traditions .messiah is needed to hAVE 12 disciples .but there were no real disciples.so he aimed to make up of false disciples out of his friends.” <hr></blockquote>

Muhammad (pbuh) had companions and so did all other Prophets. If having companions means that a person is trying to copy another, like you say that Muhammad (pbuh) was trying to copy Jesus (pbuh), then in that case Jesus (pbuh) must have copied the Prophets before him and perhaps Paul copied Jesus (pbuh) too, right? As to trying to get twelve disciples, this is totally false. Muhammad (pbuh) had much more than twelve. He is totally different to Jesus (pbuh) in this regard. He had much more followers. Can you produce evidence that he tried to imitate Jesus (pbuh) in this?

<blockquote><hr> “Disciples are 12 "Seal", "Point" , "important" prophets who will obey The last messenger whose covenants were taken .” <hr></blockquote>

No my friend, I think that you don’t know what disciples/companions are. Perhaps you should check the dictionary. The meaning that you attach to it is not attached to the word. Sorry again.

**goverim** · 5th July 2004, 04:10

Brother Hischam,
1-seal is a- a metaphoric word denoting being the last
B- a natural occurence which i know from my proof by God,and all traditions know it as well.its being a natural signature.
c- jews know everything about the last prophet.so why dont they say that mohammad is not the seal of prophets ,even they say he is a false prophet.do we know better than jews ? NO: how do we know ? because we-moslems are Ummee tribes(see:kuran)

2-bro? how can you call that time to be the golden age (Usr-i Saadat)?wars wars wars ... And such a golden age will be lived ,it never was realized.

3-he adapted his life in accordance with the teachings of the real last prophets:mostly teachings of jewry.even mohammad most propbably was behaving with jews,coz he knew many jewish traditions.

4-moon:bro? why are u forcing yourself through their way :i am asking again .why did he divide the moon into two

rophets never does illusions.and their miracles are secret.only related friendly or enemy ones are allowed.

5-How is his family coming from "Ummee"s, thats unlearnt tribes since he is from "kureish" and kureish is said to be the family who saved the Kabah.Such savings belong to jews only for about 3000 years becoz God appointed jews to be dominant over human beings.

6---------------------------------------------------------------------
“How comes his age is called to be end of the times?”
----------------------------------------------------------------------
because he is falsely called to be the last prophet and the last prophet would come at the end of the times.

7-u say islam is the fastest developing religion:i ask you which real religion temple have become moslem,and accepted meccan mohammad as a real prophet,or the last prophet?church?? sinagogs?? (but infact,kuran doesnt make a call on jews and christians to change their religions .kuran says to them "obey your book and dont misinterprete torah and the bibles"

8- You say:Western countries learnt from these Arabs .

Hisham its a wery wrong idea that somebody learned something from arabs.they were not arab ,they were "secret jews" .(revelaed from Quran).(i used "ignorant to meet "ummee")My english is not so perfect as your english -sorry)

9-you say:The Jews also do not believe in Jesus (pbuh)

My friend ,u must know that christianity rooted from jewry.and new testament itself is wholly about the last times,stories of messiah and revealitons in the NT.So while jews build up Christianity ,we cant ask them believe or not.2000 years ago ,who was the superior, dominant people of the world ? JEWS. When will their superiority end? When shiloh comes.

10- 12 imams arent to be expected to appear later than meccan mohammad,12 imams are 12 great prophets whose covenants were made to believe the last messenger:surely its nothing for us to understand ,its subject to "Gaib" 12 imam are 12 disciples of the messiah .12 imams comes from christianity .but even christians are wrong to name 12 disciples to be 12 friends of the messiah.they lived in different times -prophets to guide and hightened the human race.

11-you say :My friend, I have to be frank with you, I think you are ascribing falsehoods to the Prophet (pbuh). I already asked you for proof and you couldn’t give it and even admitted it (if I didn’t misunderstand you). Do you have any sort of evidence for the Prophet (pbuh) having taken this seal for the purpose of proving that he is the “seal of the Prophets”? Did he say that this proves it so? Are you just making false accusations?

11-you are pretty right.i am a Quran man.i come from moslem origin.but as long as i started studying compsarative religions By heavens ,i realized that meccan muhammad cant be the real Quran Prophet.even i can see it from the Quran ,and if you dont study the other books Of God :Bibles ,even hindu and budist and zoroasterian books ,you cannot realise these facts.u cant disciriminate between the true and the false.

12-i dunno for sure how they were able to read the Quran .God alowed them any way.

13- yours:This is because when we speak without evidence anything becomes easy meat.

13-in the study of heavens and religions we dont have very much evidence .we will just think ,and listen to our hearts.

14-yours:My friend, you have already said a lot of things but can you perhaps produce some evidence for your claims? Your views are not even worthy of consideration until you begin to produce some evidence.

14-bro, u always want evidence from me:what i say to you is wholy from the holy books ,Quran,Bibles .

15-yours:No my friend, I think that you don’t know what disciples/companions are. Perhaps you should check the dictionary. The meaning that you attach to it is not attached to the word. Sorry again.

15-Even the christians believe that 12 disciples are friends lived with messiah is wrong .“Disciples are 12 "Seal", "Point" , "important" prophets who will obey The last messenger whose covenants were taken .”

slm
goverim

Davidic

**mule** · 5th July 2004, 06:29

Ah......You aught to just drop such foolishness and become a christian.

**Ronnie** · 5th July 2004, 09:20

Goverim,

Do you read, write, speak Arabic?

**goverim** · 5th July 2004, 18:38

Should we be an Arab to understand the religion of God.l dont know arabic, and the people of whose language quran is must be the very people that understand Quran the least as well as we have look in their lives and sillines.

Davidic

**Hischam Khan** · 5th July 2004, 21:49

<blockquote><hr> “1-seal is a- a metaphoric word denoting being the last
B- a natural occurence which i know from my proof by God,and all traditions know it as well.its being a natural signature.
c- jews know everything about the last prophet.so why dont they say that mohammad is not the seal of prophets ,even they say he is a false prophet.do we know better than jews ? NO: how do we know ? because we-moslems are Ummee tribes(see:kuran)” <hr></blockquote>

The Holy Qur’an and Islam use it in the first sense and none other. I have shown you this in the verse that refers to this. I asked you for your basis of your idea of the “seal” having to be physical from the Qur’an and you never gave it.

Regarding B, I asked you to cite some of these traditions and you did not. As to your proof from God, anyone can make such a claim. I could even make the claim from God that Santa Claus is the newest Messiah. Wouldn’t you ask me for evidence? Would you accept it blindly?

Regarding C. We Muslims are not “Ummee” (unlettered). This was a reference to those Arabs to whom the Qur’an was revealed. However, they were thought knowledge and wisdom through the Holy Book of God and the Messenger who was reciting it to them. As for the seal, I have shown you in what way the word is used in the Qur’an and you haven’t been able to contradict it. This is simply because it is very clear. The Jews may claim that he is false, but there are also Jews that accept him and his religion, even if they are a minority. This is a fact of life (that not all will accept). The Jews also reject Jesus (pbuh), so by your reasoning he must then also be false.

<blockquote><hr> “bro? how can you call that time to be the golden age (Usr-i Saadat)?wars wars wars ... And such a golden age will be lived ,it never was realized.” <hr></blockquote>

I’ll repeat what I already said to which you never gave a response:

“How did he bring blood into the world? Blood also came in the world through Christians, should we blame this on Paul? Or are you referring to the battles Muhammad (pbuh) took part in? If yes, then I would suspect that you are aware of the fact that Prophets of God that had man power behind them always did fight? Didn’t Moses (pbuh) fight? Didn’t Joshua fight? In addition to this, didn’t David (pbuh) fight? Didn’t Solomon (pbuh) fight? They sure did. In fact, we are told that Moses (pbuh) got 12000 people killed in only one of his wars. My friend, this means that Moses (pbuh) got more people killed in one war than Muhammad (pbuh) did in all of his. No, we say that the Prophet (pbuh) brought about peace and truth. He rid a great part of the world from idol worship and he brought back, monotheism in its purest form. Through him, the Muslims became the biggest society of teetotallers (people that don’t imbibe alcohol which happens to be the biggest killer in the world today) in the world. It is clear that he brought a lot of benefit to the world; they are too many to mention. Peace be upon him!”

<blockquote><hr> “he adapted his life in accordance with the teachings of the real last prophets:mostly teachings of jewry.even mohammad most propbably was behaving with jews,coz he knew many jewish traditions.” <hr></blockquote>

We could say the same about Jesus (pbuh) and many other Prophets. However, I ask; what evidence do you have that “he knew many Jewish traditions”. We know that he couldn’t read.

<blockquote><hr> “moon:bro? why are u forcing yourself through their way :i am asking again .why did he divide the moon into two

rophets never does illusions.and their miracles are secret.only related friendly or enemy ones are allowed.” <hr></blockquote>

I don’t understand what you mean by “why are you forcing yourself through their way” so perhaps you can clarify that part. Your criticism on the moon incident has already been answered. You are just repeating answered questions.

<blockquote><hr> “How is his family coming from "Ummee"s, thats unlearnt tribes since he is from "kureish" and kureish is said to be the family who saved the Kabah.Such savings belong to jews only for about 3000 years becoz God appointed jews to be dominant over human beings.” <hr></blockquote>

What record of history are you looking into, or aren’t you? I’m not aware of Jews being near the Ka’abah, at least not many. The Quraish were the chief tribe in charge of the ka’abah and that’s a fact of history. It was not the Jews. Go ask the Jews yourself. I don’t even think that they believe in the Ka’abah to be what the Muslims believe about it.

You asked yourself a question along with an answer as follows:

<blockquote><hr> ---------------------------------------------------------------------
“How comes his age is called to be end of the times?”
----------------------------------------------------------------------
because he is falsely called to be the last prophet and the last prophet would come at the end of the times.” <hr></blockquote>

Last time you said:

<blockquote><hr> “seal of prophet is the prpophet of tye end of the times ,as we know from all religious traditions.” <hr></blockquote>

And I responded:

Could you perhaps cite some of these traditions? The Qur’an certainly does not refer to him in the words “Prophet of the end of times”. If you think that the word “khâtam” (“seal”) from Surah 33:40 refers to him being a Prophet in “the end of times” then I’d like to see where in the verse this is indicated because I see no such indication.

Then you said:

<blockquote><hr> “how can u ask this question,isnt muhammad the propehet of the end of times?570s possibly isnt the end of times ,but it may be now end of the times.so how comes he can be the prophet of end of the times.” <hr></blockquote>

And I responded:

None of us call Muhammad (pbuh) “the Prophet of the end of times”. We say that he is “the last of the Prophets” but he is not in the end of times. We don’t know when the end of times will be; neither did Muhammad (pbuh), nor your Master Jesus (pbuh).

As should be clear you not only did not produced any evidence, you also did not reply to me, on the contrary, you repeat the same thing.

<blockquote><hr> “u say islam is the fastest developing religion:i ask you which real religion temple have become moslem,and accepted meccan mohammad as a real prophet,or the last prophet?church?? sinagogs?? (but infact,kuran doesnt make a call on jews and christians to change their religions .kuran says to them "obey your book and dont misinterprete torah and the bibles"”<hr></blockquote>

First of all, the words in the quotation marks is not from the Qur’an. Are you trying to invent your own verse? Do you know how grave a sin that is? You should really be more careful. How about you produce some evidence from the Qur’an?

Regarding the question you asked, I answered this also already to a very similar question, in fact it’s probably the same question only worded differently. I repeat my answer:

“You mean nobody from other religions? This is totally untrue. If that is what you mean. We know that there are a great many Christians, Hindus agnostics and even Jews that have become Muslims. Islam is the fastest growing religion. As for those that do not enter, there can be reasons for this. Some might have misunderstood the Message, others might have been too lazy to even search for the truth, yet others might have been so prejudiced that they didn’t even want to allow the Qur’an to present itself and speak for itself and others again might have read it but with a biased, prejudiced mind. There can be many reasons. I can place the same criticism before you in regards to Christianity; that if it is the true religion then how come other religions haven’t entered into it? How come it is losing followers in such a massive scale? I had a teacher at College who is a doctor in religion, studied at Cambridge (or Oxford, I’m not totally sure anymore) and is also a Priest and he told us that Christians see Islam as a threat because it is quickly taking over from Christianity in becoming the biggest religion on earth. People estimate that in the next 50 years Islam will be the biggest religion in the world. It is said that Islam is already the biggest religion in the world in regards to practical followers only not yet on consensus where even the most unreligious people would sign that they are “Christian”.”

<blockquote><hr> “Hisham its a wery wrong idea that somebody learned something from arabs.they were not arab ,they were "secret jews" .(revelaed from Quran).(i used "ignorant to meet "ummee")My english is not so perfect as your english -sorry)” <hr></blockquote>

And I am the King of England! Please, produce your proof or else I won’t take your statement as anymore true than mine is.

<blockquote><hr> “My friend ,u must know that christianity rooted from jewry.and new testament itself is wholly about the last times,stories of messiah and revealitons in the NT.So while jews build up Christianity ,we cant ask them believe or not.2000 years ago ,who was the superior, dominant people of the world ? JEWS. When will their superiority end? When shiloh comes.” <hr></blockquote>

The Jews were not superior. The Romans were. Anyway, it might well be asked: what does it matter that some people from among Jews came up with a new religion which the rest of the Jews did not accept? The fact is that the Jews do not accept Christ, so for you to then call Muhammad (pbuh) and Islam false because they don’t accept him is contradictory.

<blockquote><hr> “12 imams arent to be expected to appear later than meccan mohammad,12 imams are 12 great prophets whose covenants were made to believe the last messenger:surely its nothing for us to understand ,its subject to "Gaib" 12 imam are 12 disciples of the messiah .12 imams comes from christianity .but even christians are wrong to name 12 disciples to be 12 friends of the messiah.they lived in different times -prophets to guide and hightened the human race.” <hr></blockquote>

Prdouce some evidenc please or else I will rightfully reject what you say.

<blockquote><hr> “you are pretty right.i am a Quran man.i come from moslem origin.but as long as i started studying compsarative religions By heavens ,i realized that meccan muhammad cant be the real Quran Prophet.even i can see it from the Quran ,and if you dont study the other books Of God :Bibles ,even hindu and budist and zoroasterian books ,you cannot realise these facts.u cant disciriminate between the true and the false.” <hr></blockquote>

I never called you a “Qur’an man”. If you are really a “Qur’an man” then why don’t you use the Qur’an man! Hey, that’s quite funny. Also, I think you never even understood the Qur’an. Perhaps this is your problem; you go reading other Books and understood none of them. You know understanding such literature doesn’t happen with the blink of an eye. It takes time and effort.

<blockquote><hr> “i dunno for sure how they were able to read the Quran .God alowed them any way.” <hr></blockquote>

I don’t know what you are on about!

<blockquote><hr> “in the study of heavens and religions we dont have very much evidence .we will just think ,and listen to our hearts.”<hr></blockquote>

No my friend, if that was the case then I could say that I walked past a farm yesterday and a Cow and Pig came across the street addressing me. They both claimed that the pig is a prophet of god. This was further revealed in my heart from god (I could then claim). Would you accept it? As absurd as it sounds, your stuff sounds absurd too and you have no basis for your argument. No wonder you can’t cite anything.

<blockquote><hr> “bro, u always want evidence from me:what i say to you is wholy from the holy books ,Quran,Bibles .” <hr></blockquote>

The only one that cited the Qur’an and the Bible so far was me. You didn’t. I asked you very often.

Edited by - Hischam Khan on 07/05/2004 14:53:29

Thread: How comes Meccan Mohammad is the last messenger

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