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Thread: Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

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    Default Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

    This is a very very interesting point

    Behold! wife of Imran said: "O my Lord! I do dedicate unto Thee what is in my womb for Thy special service ... When she was delivered, she said: "O my Lord! Behold! I am delivered of a female child!" ... "... I have named her Mary ..."
    -- Sura 3:35-36

    Now there are early christian writings that specifically say that Marys father is Joachim

    Interestingly enough Moses fathers name was Imran and he had a sister called Mary

    Wonder if i could get an islamic perspective on this!

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    Default Re: Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

    Mughirah Ibn Shu-bah (r), a companion of the Prophet Muhammad(s) relates that He was receiting the Qur'an before Christians in Najran and whilst reciting the Ayah:

    ~At length she brought the (babe) to her people, carrying him (in her arms). They said: "O Mary! Truly an amazing thing hast thou brought! "O sister of Aaron"!Thy father was not a man of evil, nor thy mother a woman unchaste!"~

    ~{Qur'an 19:27-28}~

    The Christians confronted Him and said:

    ~"You read "O sister of Harun" (i.e. Maryam) in the Qur'an, whereas Moses was born much before Jesus."~

    Mughira Ibn Shu-bah(r) did not know the answer so when He came back to the Prophet(s) He asked Muhammad(s) about it, where upon Muhammad(s)said:

    ~"The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them."~

    ~{Sahih Muslim-Kitaab al adab-vol 3-Hadeeth#[2135]-}~

    This Hadeeth of the Prophet opens up 2 avenues of explanation:

    1} Some Islamic scholars say that Mary(r) had a brother named after Prophet Aaron which could have been possible as many of us (like the Prophet(s) says) give names to our children after the names of Apostles and pious persons.

    2} Some Scholars say Mary is a blood descendant of Prophet Aaron and Mosesand She was given a title of honour after a name of an Apostle of which lineage She came from.

    Even though Mary could possibly had a brother in her lifetime named after Prophet Aaron the second explaination weighs in with more evidence.
    However i have found orienlentalists not to be satisfied with the satisfactory answer that the Prophet (s) has given and furthermore they still accuse the Prophet (s) of anachronism.

    Anachronism means something that is out of harmony with the period in which it was placed in which the oreinlentalists accuse Muhammad(s) of confusing 2 different personality's (Miriam(r) and Maryam(r)) and the time periods they lived in.

    The Bible tells us that the a man by the name of Amram bore 3 chidren, Moses, Aaron and Miriam(r):

    ~"And the name of Amram's wife was Jochebed, the daughter of Levi, whom her mother bare to Levi in Egypt: and she bare unto Amram Aaron and Moses, and Miriam their sister."~

    {Numbers 26:59}

    And Miriam(r) was also addressed in the Bible as the sister of Aaron:

    ~"And Miriam the prophetess, the sister of Aaron, took a timbrel in her hand; and all the women went out after her with timbrels and with dances."~

    {Exodus 15:20}

    *} In the Bible we have the sister of Aaron called Miriam(r) who has a father called Amram(r)

    *} In the Qur'an we have Maryam(r) the mother of Jesus being addressed by Her people "o sister of Aaron" who also happens to have a father called Imran.

    for the person without knowledge this can be quite confusing, however as i have stated before the Prophet(s) was asked about this alleged anachronism and He(s) said:

    ~"The (people of the old age) used to give names (to their persons) after the names of Apostle and pious persons who had gone before them."~

    ~{sahih muslim}~

    *Meaning Maryam(r) was named after Miriam(r) which i do not think any learned Christian would disagree due to the fact that the actual name Mary derives from Miriam which in the Hebrew language means "strong"

    *Likewise the father of Mary(r) "Imran" was named after a pious person who had gone before Him called 'Amram' so really i do not see any problem here it is exactly how the Prophet(s) has put it:

    ~"They was given names after pious persons who had gone before them"~

    {Sahih Muslim}

    And even today we have many people around the world called Imran, Aaron ,Mary and so forth so i wonder how many familys past , present and future has a father called Imran with a son called Aaron and a daughter called Maryam? it is a very high possibility.

    for example if my name was Jesus and i had a mother called Mary it doesnt mean im the Prophet Jesus [a] from his age, it would be that i was named after him just like Mary was named after the Sister of Moses [a].

    So the charge of Anachronism has been clearly refuted by the Prophet(s) over 1400 years ago.

    Mary(r) the Levite

    There is another problem if an orienlentalist wishes to pursue further with the charge of anachronism against the Prophet(s) and that problem is that the Bible does not give us the name of Mary's(r) father due to the fact that the Jewish law does not allow genealogys for females to be recorded in the scriptures, infact the closest record of Mary's(r) ancestry was spoken by the Arch Angel Gabriel when He visited Mary(r) to give the glad tidings of the birth of a righteous son and the news of John the Baptist:

    ~"And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren".~

    {Bible luke 1:36}

    And Marys(r) cousin Elizabeth(r) was married to Prophet Zechariahs who were both Levite's descending from the noble ancestry of Prophet Moses and His brother Aaron,

    Elizabeth was also addressed as the daughters of Aaron:

    ~"There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth."~

    {Bible Luke.1.5}

    Furthermore the Prophet Muhammad(s) confirmed that Mary and Jesus were from the Levite ancestry in another Hadeeth, whilst explaining to His Companions about what happened on His miraculous night journey through the seven heavens He said:

    ~"..... When I entered (the heavens) I saw Jesus the son of Mary and John the son of Zachrais who are (2nd) cousins from the maternal side (meaning through their Mothers) and they prayed for My well being....."~

    {Sahih Muslim , Vol 1, Kitab al iman, chapter 74, Hadeeth #[162]}

    So if John the Baptist was a Levite and Jesus was His cousin related from the maternal side that means Mary(r) must have been a Levite and not a descendant of Judah like many Christians think, due to the fact intermarrying was forbidden between the 12 tribes of Israel ,Judites were not allowed to marry Levites.

    Why sister of Aaron?

    So why is Mary addressed in the Quran as the sister of Aaron? And why is She not addressed as the sister of Moses, Solomon, Judah etc, etc?

    *} After Mary(r) had given birth to Jesus She went back to Her people carrying the baby in Her arms and with Mary(r) being unmarried Her people started accusing Mary(r) of doing a shameful act and dishonouring Her Levitical ancestry, so they said "O sister of Aaron Your Father was not a man of evil nor was your Mother unchaste!" but She pointed to the baby and by miracle baby Jesus defended His mother against the charge of Her people {Surah Maryam 19 ayah's 27-33} which could not be said if the Jews would have called Her "O sister of Judah"

    [13] And it was told Tamar, saying, Behold thy father in law goeth up to Timnath to shear his sheep.
    [14] And she put her widow's garments off from her, and covered her with a vail, and wrapped herself, and sat in an open place, which is by the way to Timnath; for she saw that Shelah was grown, and she was not given unto him to wife.
    [15] When Judah saw her, he thought her to be an harlot; because she had covered her face.
    [16] And he turned unto her by the way, and said, Go to, I pray thee, let me come in unto thee; (for he knew not that she was his daughter in law.) And she said, What wilt thou give me, that thou mayest come in unto me?
    [17] And he said, I will send thee a kid from the flock. And she said, Wilt thou give me a pledge, till thou send it?
    [18] And he said, What pledge shall I give thee? And she said, Thy signet, and thy bracelets, and thy staff that is in thine hand. And he gave it her, and came in unto her, and she conceived by him.
    [19] And she arose, and went away, and laid by her vail from her, and put on the garments of her widowhood.
    [20] And Judah sent the kid by the hand of his friend the Adullamite, to receive his pledge from the woman's hand: but he found her not.
    [21] Then he asked the men of that place, saying, Where is the harlot, that was openly by the way side? And they said, There was no harlot in this place.
    [22] And he returned to Judah, and said, I cannot find her; and also the men of the place said, that there was no harlot in this place.
    [23] And Judah said, Let her take it to her, lest we be shamed: behold, I sent this kid, and thou hast not found her.
    [24] And it came to pass about three months after, that it was told Judah, saying, Tamar thy daughter in law hath played the harlot; and also, behold, she is with child by whoredom. And Judah said, Bring her forth, and let her be burnt.
    [25] When she was brought forth, she sent to her father in law, saying, By the man, whose these are, am I with child: and she said, Discern, I pray thee, whose are these, the signet, and bracelets, and staff.
    [26] And Judah acknowledged them, and said, She hath been more righteous than I; because that I gave her not to Shelah my son. And he knew her again no more.
    [27] And it came to pass in the time of her travail, that, behold, twins were in her womb.
    [28] And it came to pass, when she travailed, that the one put out his hand: and the midwife took and bound upon his hand a scarlet thread, saying, This came out first,
    [29] And it came to pass, as he drew back his hand, that, behold, his brother came out: and she said, How hast thou broken forth? this breach be upon thee: therefore his name was called Pharez.
    [30] And afterward came out his brother, that had the scarlet thread upon his hand: and his name was called Zarah.

    (Genesis 38:13-30)

    we see that pharez and zarah are children of incest which arcording to the new testament are the ancestors of Jesus Christ:

    [1] The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
    [2] Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
    [3] And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
    [4] And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
    [5] And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
    [6] And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
    [7] And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
    [8] And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
    [9] And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
    [10] And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
    [11] And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
    [12] And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
    [13] And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
    [14] And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
    [15] And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
    [16] And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    (matthew 1-16)

    Now Jesus according to the new testament is within 10 generations of his ancestors Zarah and phares which according to the Bible makes him a bastard:

    [2] A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

    (Deuteronomy 23:2)

    But the fact that the Jews even allowed Jesus into the temple and he sat there as a child teaching and preaching to the Jews confirms he was not of the Judites otherwise that would have been the Jews perfect excuse to turf him out of the temple, but yet we read in the Bible they had to find certain excuses in which they had difficulty doing so, so in reality this confirms that Jesus was not from the line of Judah but from the line of Levi.

    In the Bible Elizabeth(r) is given the title "daughters of Aaron" and it is common sense that She is not the actual daughter of Aaron but this title is a title of respect and honour because of Her noble ancestry, now why is not Elizabeth(r) called the daughters of Moses and so forth?

    Another problem the orienlentist has difficulty understanding is why is Mary(r) called the sister of Aaron and not the Daughter of Aaron and they claim that "In those days people were only named as sons or daughters (never brothers or sisters, incidentally) of people from whom they directly descended" but according to the Bible God(s) says to Moses:

    ~"I shall raise them up a Prophet from amongst their brethren (meaning brothers)"~

    {Deuteronomy 18:18}

    Now according to Christian theologians this prophecy is referring to Jesus, "Their" refers to the Judaic tribe and "brethren" refers to the generations to come, so if this prophecy is in concordance with Jesus then Jesus is the "Brethren of Judah" in Biblical terms
    So why does it say that this prophet is to come from amongst their Brethren/brothers and why not from amongst their sons? Should not it say, "I will raise them a prophet from amongst their sons"?

    ~All praise to God(s) and infinite peace and blessings be upon Muhammad(s), His companions and His family~

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    Default Re: Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

    Brother you said:

    Now there are early christian writings that specifically say that Marys father is Joachim.

    without no offense to you i doubt your sources due to the fact that the Jews never ever recorded the geneologys for females and neither did the early christians, infact if we was to look at the earlyest Jewish writings about Jesus and Mary you would find nothing but sour comments and secondly the new testament did not exist at all in the early christian days and all and i say all of the earlyest scriptures from around the time of Jesus are totally destroyed, so again witout dispute i have no doubt whatsoever that there is no source which has Marys geneology recorded but we have only clues in which the Christians themselve are in dispute about, many Christian Scholars are not in agreement about your statement about marys father and they are not in agreement about the Bible either so we can not take the sources you take from as authentic just as much as a Muslim can not say the gospel of barnabus is authentic though there is truth in there. and plus some Christian Scholars say that Jesus was not born miraculous and that Joseph was his father, but yet with the Islamic doctrines i have found them again and again straightening these disputed matters out. so my dear brother with all sincerity i ask you to study Islam with the intention of seeking guidance , not like im judging your intention that is not my intention to do so, it is advisable to read books to seek guidance from the Lord of the Worlds, He has said "O servant ask guidance from Me and I shall give you" and the Bible reflects this "seek and you shall find"
    so on this path of knowledge our intention must be for the best so we can seek the truth to gain our salvation and help others to salvation as the Holy Prophet Muhammad [s] said " I swear by the One Who holds my soul, none of you truly believe until you desire for your neighbour (or he said brother) what you desire for yourself)

    peace be with you and i will use the same prayer as you did to end with

    "O Lord, My God, In you alone do I put all my trust.
    Guide me aright! Let my every work, reflect your Infiniteness!"

    ameeen

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    Default Re: Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

    also just to throw one last thing in the translator of the Qur'an Muhammad Pickthall has done justice to this subject in his introduction to Surah Imran so to increase your knowlegde on this subject you will find that a good read and a way better explaination than mine is

    peace

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    Default Re: Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

    we see that pharez and zarah are children of incest which arcording to the new testament are the ancestors of Jesus Christ:

    [1] The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
    [2] Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
    [3] And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
    [4] And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
    [5] And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
    [6] And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
    [7] And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
    [8] And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
    [9] And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
    [10] And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
    [11] And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
    [12] And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
    [13] And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
    [14] And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
    [15] And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
    [16] And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    (matthew 1-16)

    Now Jesus according to the new testament is within 10 generations of his ancestors Zarah and phares which according to the Bible makes him a bastard:

    [2] A bastard shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD; even to his tenth generation shall he not enter into the congregation of the LORD.

    If we are arguing technicalities.
    Jesus wasnt within 10 generations of Phares!

    Its like, sure the explanation about Marys father being Imran, is possible (even though the accepted infancy gospel of thomas (not the gospel of thomas) clearly states that his Name is Joachim
    and as far i know there is no dispute within chrisitan scholarship to that point
    I really think you should read this,
    cos this isnt about geneaology, these book were written within (at most) a 100 years form the death of Joachim, and maybe even within the lifetime of Mary
    There would have been too many people alive, at the time, who would have disputed, the use of Joachim as the father, if infact his name was Imran.
    So the explanation about the father doesnt hold water.
    as to descending from aaron, how can we assume the desecent from aaron to mary without some chain of descendants.
    Are you familiar with any such chain?
    And then too why would she be called the sister of aaron, when in semitic languages, its most common to refer to someone as Mary daughter of Imran, son of Aaron.(establishing lineage, if the need arose) or even directly Mary daughter of aaron
    (this would have been more plausible)
    However consider the alternative
    Prophet Mohammed (PBUH) actually got the 2 Marys confused, and so simply mixed up times and places, and relations , and then there is no need for Circuitous explanations

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    Default Re: Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

    By your argument King David, should have been shunned by the Lord, cos he is within 10 generations of Phares...
    What do you think of that?

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    Default Re: Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

    [1] I dont believe that any of the sons of Jacob would do that in the first place.

    [2] Gospel of Thomas is a disputed source disputed by many Scholars , evidence of that being thrown out in 325 a.d at the council of nicea ...they didnt deem it fit, so that has something to say really doesnt it, what is the word of God ? thee Bible or the gospel of Thomas(infancy or uninfancy is still got thrown out)

    [3] and on the point about Hebrew language and they refered to there people as sons or daughters of well actually youre wrong but its probaly not your fault, in Hebrew and Arabic Grammar people of the past are reffered to as Sister of and Brother of even if it be by faith, even citys and locations are refered to as sister thats why you will never hear a Hebrew speaking Jew criticising the O Sister of Aaron verse in the Qur'an, it will only be people without the knowledge of the Grammar.

    [4] Even though i could have made a blunder on the 10 generations thing, yet you failed to reconize that the above geneology was not Marys geneolgy but Josephs and yet again in luke 3 we have another geneology of Joseph which is totally contradictive, therefore Marys geneology is not here at all so there is no Biblical link between Jesus and Judah which i find a bit weird because all male Jews will be able to tell you their geneology because it has been recorded by the Jews, so why not for Jesus? reason being the Jews destroyed it and the Christians were persecuted that much that it was impossible to write and record many things. the Christians in Jesus's time were very small in number b'cos many did not accept him.

    [5] the fact you did ignore is that Mary is Elizabeths cousin and Elizabeth was a levite and the tribes were not permitted cross marriages as the Jews are very tribal so how could that be? this is a very important clue for the chain!

    [6] Jochim - point him out in Biblical scripture , infact does the Bible go into what name Marys mother was? how she got to the temple? i gurantee that the name of Marys father is not to be found in the Bible and there are reasons why they are not there... this is a point to ponder upon What was the Story of Mary in the Bible?

    [7] And what type of paper was this book written on that you claim could have been written in the very lifetime of Mary? and how was it preserved when they had problems scraping together the fragments of the new testament?

    these are all questions to be asked, indeed the answers are very clear

    I had another point to make but right now i have to do something. i will be back soon , peace.

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    Default Re: Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

    Quote Originally Posted by Marat786@hotmail.com
    [1] I dont believe that any of the sons of Jacob would do that in the first place.

    [2] Gospel of Thomas is a disputed source disputed by many Scholars , evidence of that being thrown out in 325 a.d at the council of nicea ...they didnt deem it fit, so that has something to say really doesnt it, what is the word of God ? thee Bible or the gospel of Thomas(infancy or uninfancy is still got thrown out)
    Actually "thrown out" doesnt mean they were untrue, they were eliminated for a vareity of reasons....
    The infancy gospel of thomas (not the gospel of thomas) was of the last to be eliminated from the Bible
    Having said that, remember these scriptures are not heretical, they are still considered sources of valid information (especially the Infancy gospel of Thomas)
    The word of God...well look at John 1:1 . you will see the word of God is Jesus.
    The testaments...testify to the word of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marat786@hotmail.com
    [4] Even though i could have made a blunder on the 10 generations thing, yet you failed to reconize that the above geneology was not Marys geneolgy but Josephs and yet again in luke 3 we have another geneology of Joseph which is totally contradictive, therefore Marys geneology is not here at all so there is no Biblical link between Jesus and Judah which i find a bit weird because all male Jews will be able to tell you their geneology because it has been recorded by the Jews, so why not for Jesus? reason being the Jews destroyed it and the Christians were persecuted that much that it was impossible to write and record many things. the Christians in Jesus's time were very small in number b'cos many did not accept him.
    Wait a minute, that is the geneology of Jesus.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marat786@hotmail.com
    [5] the fact you did ignore is that Mary is Elizabeths cousin and Elizabeth was a levite and the tribes were not permitted cross marriages as the Jews are very tribal so how could that be? this is a very important clue for the chain!
    Now you have defeated yourself...
    If she was Levite, and Joseph was Judite, by your own reasoning, they couldnt have been betrothed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marat786@hotmail.com

    [6] Jochim - point him out in Biblical scripture , infact does the Bible go into what name Marys mother was? how she got to the temple? i gurantee that the name of Marys father is not to be found in the Bible and there are reasons why they are not there... this is a point to ponder upon What was the Story of Mary in the Bible?
    First it is important to realise that early christian scripture , even though it was not included in the bible, is not heretical...
    I would say that these sources of information are analogous to the hadith
    They are no less believable , and therefore worthy of a good read.

    Quote Originally Posted by Marat786@hotmail.com
    [7] And what type of paper was this book written on that you claim could have been written in the very lifetime of Mary? and how was it preserved when they had problems scraping together the fragments of the new testament?
    What kind of paper were the other christian writings written on, i believe they were skins and parchments.
    Yep i believe the infancy gospel of thomas exists from very very early years
    maybe 100 AD (maybe though i cant be certain, an even earlier version)

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    Default Re: Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

    my last point for now is that Joachim was not mentioned at all in the Bible but who is this character we find in the Added books of the Bible what is known as the apocrypha and you was saying this is not disputed?

    [3] And Baruch did read the words of this book in the hearing of Jechonias the son of Joachim king of Juda, and in the ears of all the people that came to hear the book,

    [7] And they sent it to Jerusalem unto Joachim the high priest, the son of Chelcias, son of Salom, and to the priests, and to all the people which were found with him at Jerusalem

    (Baruch, apocrypha)

    notice how it says in verse 3 Jechonias the son of Joachim king of Juda

    and yet we find out in the Bible the son of Joachim who was Jechonias was way out of Marys time , look closely

    [1] The book of the generation of Jesus Christ, the son of David, the son of Abraham.
    [2] Abraham begat Isaac; and Isaac begat Jacob; and Jacob begat Judas and his brethren;
    [3] And Judas begat Phares and Zara of Thamar; and Phares begat Esrom; and Esrom begat Aram;
    [4] And Aram begat Aminadab; and Aminadab begat Naasson; and Naasson begat Salmon;
    [5] And Salmon begat Booz of Rachab; and Booz begat Obed of Ruth; and Obed begat Jesse;
    [6] And Jesse begat David the king; and David the king begat Solomon of her that had been the wife of Urias;
    [7] And Solomon begat Roboam; and Roboam begat Abia; and Abia begat Asa;
    [8] And Asa begat Josaphat; and Josaphat begat Joram; and Joram begat Ozias;
    [9] And Ozias begat Joatham; and Joatham begat Achaz; and Achaz begat Ezekias;
    [10] And Ezekias begat Manasses; and Manasses begat Amon; and Amon begat Josias;
    [11] And Josias begat Jechonias and his brethren, about the time they were carried away to Babylon:
    [12] And after they were brought to Babylon, Jechonias begat Salathiel; and Salathiel begat Zorobabel;
    [13] And Zorobabel begat Abiud; and Abiud begat Eliakim; and Eliakim begat Azor;
    [14] And Azor begat Sadoc; and Sadoc begat Achim; and Achim begat Eliud;
    [15] And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
    [16] And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

    (matthew 1-16)

    so we see that you got joachim confused, and so simply mixed up times and places, and relations.

    and about the king David thing ...please note that when i have quoted i have always said according to sos ans so not according to my own believe.

    peace

  10. #10
    Member Marat786@hotmail.com's Avatar
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    Default Re: Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

    joachim = Josias (it is the same character)

  11. #11
    Member Marat786@hotmail.com's Avatar
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    Default Re: Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

    there is no evidence for Joseph even
    in Islam there is nothing at all recorded of him and he is not there in Jewish records either you should try the encylopedia of Judaism and try and see if you can find him in there but still they are both NOT jesus geneolgys but they are both Josephs, maybe thats a dileberate attempt they made to discredit Mary

    Who knows but God

  12. #12
    Member Marat786@hotmail.com's Avatar
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    Default Re: Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

    So in reality why is there a Judah geneology in the Bible both claiminmg to be Jesus geneology when they are not
    and still youre ignoring the vital clue that Mary was Elizabeths cousin and Elizabeths Zachrias wife and they were levites ..............youre response was to throw Joseph into the picture when all the time i have been trying to throw him out of the picture by telling you Jesus is not related to Joseph nor was Mary married to Joseph

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    Banned vdings's Avatar
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    Default Re: Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

    Im not sure what you are trying to say about Josias...so i shall refrain form commenting
    Howver i shall comment on one thing...
    If Mary was a Levite, and Joseph was a Judite...
    They cant have been betroth to each other!
    At least form what you have told me....
    So for sure Mary couldnt have been Levite

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    Default Re: Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

    Well what im trying to say in Islam there is no report whatsoever of Joseph and to tell you the truth the geneologys that claim to be Jesus's are both Josephs and yet they contradict each other and they cant be Marys especially if Marys father is not metioned there and we both believe that Mary had no sexual relationship and therefore Joseph was not the father,

    look without offending you, i have seen youre posts you are quite a humble person and thats a good thing but you see the Bible is very confusing and unclear and only with the Islamic doctrine did i manage to straighten out who what where and why, but at the end of the Day there is no evidence of any of Marys lineage except

    ~"And, behold, thy cousin Elisabeth, she hath also conceived a son in her old age: and this is the sixth month with her, who was called barren".~

    {Bible luke 1:36}

    Elizabeth was a descendant of Aaron and Aaron was a levite :

    ~"There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth."~

    {Bible Luke.1.5}

    Furthermore the Prophet Muhammad(s) confirmed that Mary and Jesus were from the Levite ancestry in another Hadeeth, whilst explaining to His Companions about what happened on His miraculous night journey through the seven heavens He said:

    ~"..... When I entered (the heavens) I saw Jesus the son of Mary and John the son of Zachrais who are (2nd) cousins from the maternal side (meaning through their Mothers) and they prayed for My well being....."~

    {Sahih Muslim , Vol 1, Kitab al iman, chapter 74, Hadeeth #[162]}

    and this evidence i accept b'cos it is so clear and all the evidence falls into place.

    of course Muhammad [s] knew that amran and Imran were different people just like Mary and Miriam are
    i would have been worryed if the Quran said

    Moses went to Pharoah and Jesus threw his rod

    but it does not say that.

    For me the evidence is clear cut

    peace

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    Default Re: Father of Mary...Joachim or Amram(Imraan)

    Vdings,

    I would simply note that it wasn't uncommon for a Jewish man in those days to be known by more than one name. After all, the apostle Matthew was also known as Levi.

    --Joe

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