This is your chance to convert me.

[Yahya Sulaiman]

I was once a Muslim, but I left the religion. Recently, I've found that my thoughts have been returning to it quite often. But there are a number of reasons why I don't believe in the Qur'an, and maybe you people here can answer them for me. Who knows? You may end up making a believer out of me. Or I may end up de-converting you. This is a debate topic, mind you, but let's try to keep things civil. I'm making this post to see if you can alleviate these problems. I promise I'm not here to stir things up.

Here are some objections I have to Islam, or perhaps "questions" would be a better word. I suppose I should call them "theses," like Martin Luther's theses to the Catholic church.

1. Why would a good God condemn people to hell over a matter of beliefs? What do beliefs have to do with your merit as a person?
2. Come to think of it, how could a good God condemn people to hell, period? That's not very merciful.
3. Doesn't the story of Dhul-Qarnain seem to you to be saying that the sun rises and sets from certain places on the earth?
4. What is the practical purpose of ceremony and ritual? I have never seen the value in them. And Islam has quite a lot of them!
5. Don't you think that having standardized prayers (the five daily ones) robs prayer of its significance by having the words exist first, and then you make yourself mean them? Shouldn't all prayer be done naturally, situationally, rather than come in a standardized format for all people? (I am aware that the five daily prayers are the mandatory ones and that Muslims also make personal prayers on the side. That isn't my point.)
6. Is it not blasphemy to attribute a book to God? To say that God is such a being that can communicate with people? To box God into a text, so to speak?
7. Male superiority is taught by the Qur'an, as is wife-beating. Even as a last resort, I think wife-beating is inexcusable. What do you make of that?
8. If the Qur'an is indeed a copy in human language of a sacred book in heaven that is in some way a necessary part of the universe, or perhaps even God (here I am referring to the rather mystical "mother of the Book" notion), then why is it so local? It talks mainly about earth, this one tiny speck in the universe, and always mentions the rest of outer space only in an offhand way.
9. Can there not be more reasonable, less violent solutions to problems than to cut off the hands of a thief or whip adulterers a hundred times?
10. Doesn't the parable of the light in the Qur'an fail, since it is so vague, and the purpose of a parable is to make something clear?
11. The Qur'an says not to make friends with Christians or Jews. Don't you think that's a rather unnecessary social division?

That's it for now. I may very well think of other points later and come back to add them on.

Well, this is your shot at converting me. Since I was once Muslim and then abandoned the religion, I am pretty much the scum of the earth according to the Qur'an. So try to bring me back. See if you can come up with plausible solutions for these eleven problems, and who knows? Maybe I will become a jewel in your crown in Paradise.

[Yahya Sulaiman]

Oh wait, something else I forgot:

12. Satan was cast out from heaven because he refused to "bow down and make obeisance" to humans. Now whether that's a command to commit shirk is debatable, I suppose, but regardless of that, how can you blame him for refusing to call himself inferior to something mortal and physical when he is immortal and spiritual? Blasphemous as it may sound, I think Satan was in the right (supposing, of course, that this actually happened).

[ihsan]

Here are some objections I have to Islam, or perhaps "questions" would be a better word. I suppose I should call them "theses," like Martin Luther's theses to the Catholic church.

***1. Why would a good God condemn people to hell over a matter of beliefs? What do beliefs have to do with your merit as a person?***

Where exactly do you think a person's merit comes from? Isn't a person defined by his will, and isn't will rooted in a CONSCIOUS realization?

***2. Come to think of it, how could a good God condemn people to hell, period? That's not very merciful.***

Does mercy necessarily contradict justice? If somebody commits a crime and is punished, is the one who punishes him to blame? Can the charge of merciless be applied to him?

***3. Doesn't the story of Dhul-Qarnain seem to you to be saying that the sun rises and sets from certain places on the earth?***

It is purely linguistic style symbolizing that he reached the western most point of his destination, and the Quran is full of these types of metaphors. The moon does not literally 'follow' the sun.

***4. What is the practical purpose of ceremony and ritual? I have never seen the value in them. And Islam has quite a lot of them!***

All societies have traditions and customs. Men are physical creatures, i.e. they express certain beliefs through their practices. Psychologically, the body affects mind and the mind affects body.

Islam does not have many rituals, in fact, it has few.

***5. Don't you think that having standardized prayers (the five daily ones) robs prayer of its significance by having the words exist first, and then you make yourself mean them? Shouldn't all prayer be done naturally, situationally, rather than come in a standardized format for all people? (I am aware that the five daily prayers are the mandatory ones and that Muslims also make personal prayers on the side. That isn't my point.)***

The fact that God instituted certain prayers at certain times is specifically meant so that man does not become oblivious to the reality. One simply can ponder over the timings and realize why they have been instituted in the manner they have. Further, the Quran has only a few requirements in the salaah, and a belieevrs can say whatever he feels like it in the language he wants during this time.


***6. Is it not blasphemy to attribute a book to God? To say that God is such a being that can communicate with people? To box God into a text, so to speak?***

Isn't it blasphemy to think God has created man with reason, and free-will, and with this free-will he can create havoc on earth or beautify it and NOT PROVIDED MAN WITH GUIDANCE THROUGH A BOOK? If man is favoured above all creation through his reason, what more logical way of communicating except through a text?

***7. Male superiority is taught by the Qur'an, as is wife-beating. Even as a last resort, I think wife-beating is inexcusable. What do you make of that?***

Male superiority? Where? The Quran says that men and women are different naturally, and because of this difference, responsibilities may vary. This does not necessitate inequality. A father surely does not possess the patience and perseverence of a mother when dealing with a child.


***8. If the Qur'an is indeed a copy in human language of a sacred book in heaven that is in some way a necessary part of the universe, or perhaps even God (here I am referring to the rather mystical "mother of the Book" notion), then why is it so local? It talks mainly about earth, this one tiny speck in the universe, and always mentions the rest of outer space only in an offhand way.***

Because it's concern is transforming human character.

***9. Can there not be more reasonable, less violent solutions to problems than to cut off the hands of a thief or whip adulterers a hundred times?***

Can a thief not steal? Can an adulterer not commit adultery?


***10. Doesn't the parable of the light in the Qur'an fail, since it is so vague, and the purpose of a parable is to make something clear?***

How does it fail? How can one fail to appreciate that the human heart is being referred to, and when kept pure, and it comes in contact with revelation, light upon light is produced?

***11. The Qur'an says not to make friends with Christians or Jews. Don't you think that's a rather unnecessary social division?***

It does not sat that. It says do not make friends with those Jews and Christians that are aggressive and mock the religion, not giving any respect to Muslims. The Quran says the same thing about people of other faiths.

Edited by - Azad on 10/06/2003 13:20:53

[Azad]

9. Can there not be more reasonable, less violent solutions to problems than to cut off the hands of a thief or whip adulterers a hundred times?

The punishment of flogging is not really meant to inflict physical pain on the delinquent, rather it is meant to humiliate the adulterer/adulteress in public.
The punishment of hand-severing should only be applied on perpetrators who have commited theft under circumstances which were not mitigating, who have spread mischief and disharmony in the society by their criminal act and who really do not deserve any mercy. A casual shoplifter certainly does not fall into this category, but without a doubt persons who organize crime, like the mafia.

Please read this to get a better understanding: Punishment in Islam


May Peace be with you.

[Azad]

Very strange, I didn't intend to edit your post ihsan, I can't even remember having clicked on the edit-icon. I accidentally replaced your posting with mine but I was able to recover your posting. My God, it was a shock for me, I thought you would kill me <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

May Peace be with you.

[Yahya Sulaiman]

Where exactly do you think a person's merit comes from?

From whether they're a good person, and nothing else. Beliefs have nothing to do with it.

Isn't a person defined by his will, and isn't will rooted in a CONSCIOUS realization?

I have no idea what you're saying.

Does mercy necessarily contradict justice? If somebody commits a crime and is punished, is the one who punishes him to blame? Can the charge of merciless be applied to him?

That depends on whether the punishment exceeds the crime, such as applying infinite punishment to a finite crime.

It is purely linguistic style symbolizing that he reached the western most point of his destination, and the Quran is full of these types of metaphors. The moon does not literally 'follow' the sun.

It says he reached the place of the setting of the sun, and saw it setting into a murky spring, then went a different way to reach the place of the rising of the sun, and found people there who were not shielded from it. That sounds pretty clear to me.

All societies have traditions and customs. Men are physical creatures, i.e. they express certain beliefs through their practices. Psychologically, the body affects mind and the mind affects body.

Islam does not have many rituals, in fact, it has few.

Even if it does have few, few is still more than none, and I don't see why any should be required. There are any number of ways for the mind and body to affect each other. Ritual has always appeared to me to be the most pointless and inefficient way.

The fact that God instituted certain prayers at certain times is specifically meant so that man does not become oblivious to the reality. One simply can ponder over the timings and realize why they have been instituted in the manner they have. Further, the Quran has only a few requirements in the salaah, and a belieevrs can say whatever he feels like it in the language he wants during this time.

I didn't know that you could add things into it. I've never heard of this being put into the practice.

Isn't it blasphemy to think God has created man with reason, and free-will, and with this free-will he can create havoc on earth or beautify it and NOT PROVIDED MAN WITH GUIDANCE THROUGH A BOOK? If man is favoured above all creation through his reason, what more logical way of communicating except through a text?

How about just speaking to us directly, without blurring the lines of communication through a medium and later copyists?

Male superiority? Where?

At the beginning of 4:34.

The Quran says that men and women are different naturally, and because of this difference, responsibilities may vary. This does not necessitate inequality. A father surely does not possess the patience and perseverence of a mother when dealing with a child.

You haven't mentioned the wife-beating part.

Because it's concern is transforming human character.

That doesn't really answer my question. Why are humans the main focus when we're such a tiny part of the universe?

Can a thief not steal? Can an adulterer not commit adultery?

???

How does it fail? How can one fail to appreciate that the human heart is being referred to, and when kept pure, and it comes in contact with revelation, light upon light is produced?

That seems like one possible interpretation, but I don't find it as obvious and clear as you do.

It does not sat that. It says do not make friends with those Jews and Christians that are aggressive and mock the religion, not giving any respect to Muslims. The Quran says the same thing about people of other faiths.

It does say that, in Surah 5 (I don't remember the exact verse), and nothing in the context looks to me like it changes the point.

[Yahya Sulaiman]

The punishment of flogging is not really meant to inflict physical pain on the delinquent, rather it is meant to humiliate the adulterer/adulteress in public.

Lashing someone one hundred times can very well kill them.

The punishment of hand-severing should only be applied on perpetrators who have commited theft under circumstances which were not mitigating, who have spread mischief and disharmony in the society by their criminal act and who really do not deserve any mercy. A casual shoplifter certainly does not fall into this category, but without a doubt persons who organize crime, like the mafia.

Where do they get this "like the mafia" part? It doesn't seem to me like it comes from the Qur'an. The ahadith, maybe?

Please read this to get a better understanding: Punishment in Islam

That article doesn't exactly apply to my question (or where it does, my answers would be the same ones that I already provided for you).

[Azad]

Assalam

How about just speaking to us directly, without blurring the lines of communication through a medium and later copyists?

The life in this world is a test and a preliminary phase for the next life to come. God keeps himself physically hidden and is silent in order for this test to be possible. The test would effectively be terminated if God revealed himself to us in an undeniable way.

Al-Maaidah 5:48 "And had God so desired, He would have made you a single people [and not given you the freedom to deviate], but for the purpose of testing you in what He has bestowed upon you [He granted you freedom]."

May Peace be with you.

[Yahya Sulaiman]

The life in this world is a test and a preliminary phase for the next life to come. God keeps himself physically hidden and is silent in order for this test to be possible. The test would effectively be terminated if God revealed himself to us in an undeniable way.

Al-Maaidah 5:48 "And had God so desired, He would have made you a single people [and not given you the freedom to deviate], but for the purpose of testing you in what He has bestowed upon you [He granted you freedom]."

Hmmm...that brings up the issue of what I said about the irrationality and injustice of reward and punishment being based (even partly) on beliefs.

[Darkyl]

Peace Azad,

The test would effectively be terminated if God revealed himself to us in an undeniable way.

Why?

I think that if God revealed himself undeniably, we could still chose to refuse Him.
That would seem a more accurate test to me.

Peace

[Azad]

Lashing someone one hundred times can very well kill them.

If you do exaggerate and intend so, then certainly you could kill somebody by lashing him.
As I said already, the wisdom behind this punishment is to humiliate the transgressor, thus his feelings should be hurt rather than his body.

It doesn't seem to me like it comes from the Qur'an

I can't help you with that. It's the understanding of the scholars on the mainpage and I accept it.

That article doesn't exactly apply to my question

I think your problem is that you can't identify yourself with the ethical concepts of Islam. If you believe that these punishments are too harsh, or violent, then the Islam presented on the following site might be more appealing to you: http://www.free-minds.org

There are no rituals for them (the heck with it), there is no cutting off of hands, there is no "wife-beating", the veil is not neccessary, Sunnah and Hadith's are to be rejected totally, Jinn's are in truth the "teenage mutant hero turtles" ... it's the overall lite version of Islam and it's just wonderful, but unfortunately they believe Hell is eternal!
Or if you dislike some verses of the Qur'an just "develop" some mathematical code with which you can justify the removal of these verses, and do not forget to officially proclaim that you discovered this "holy code".
No, let's keep it civil as you said. I'm not sure what you expect from us, shall we only clarify your doubts or shall we cure your obvious antipathy towards Islam? I'm afraid that I won't be effective at the latter case.

May Peace be with you.

[Yahya Sulaiman]

There are no rituals for them (the heck with it), there is no cutting off of hands, there is no "wife-beating", the veil is not neccessary, Sunnah and Hadith's are to be rejected totally, Jinn's are in truth the "teenage mutant hero turtles" ... it's the overall lite version of Islam and it's just wonderful, but unfortunately they believe Hell is eternal!
Or if you dislike some verses of the Qur'an just "develop" some mathematical code with which you can justify the removal of these verses, and do not forget to officially proclaim that you discovered this "holy code".
No, let's keep it civil as you said.

Yes, let's. I don't appreciate being mentioned in the same breath with Rashad Khalifa.

I'm not sure what you expect from us, shall we only clarify your doubts or shall we cure your obvious antipathy towards Islam? I'm afraid that I won't be effective at the latter case.

I made the same initial post yesterday on another Muslim message board and already I've gotten the same prejudice from them. As incredible as it may seem, some people can disagree with you without having an "obvious antipathy" to your beliefs. Open your mind more.

[Azad]

I made the same initial post yesterday on another Muslim message board and already I've gotten the same prejudice from them. As incredible as it may seem, some people can disagree with you without having an "obvious antipathy" to your beliefs. Open your mind more.

If I made a false judgement then I want to apologize. But tell me then, how shall I interpret your value judgement about the punishment of flogging and hand-severing? Isn't it obvious that you do not sympathize with it? I call this antipathy, is this incorrect?

May Peace be with you.

[Yahya Sulaiman]

I am willing to be open-minded about every issue that I brought up, the penal ones included. The problem is that I don't see how it could be incorporated into my views on politics. There are worse punishments it could have prescribed, to be sure--I just tend to prefer taking the nonviolent road whenever it's possible. Part of it may be a cultural bias on my behalf, to be sure--but my leanings toward pacifism are hardly the rage in my homeland of America right now! ;-)

[Yahya Sulaiman]

A couple more points...

First, I notice that no one has yet responded to #12. Is it too offensive for a response? Bear in mind that I don't actually think that Satan exists, and that if Islamic doctrine on the matter is true, he is obviously an antagonistic fellow. But the notion of his fall looks, to me, to be rooted in the idea of a great injustice. Maybe that's just the limitations of my human standards--but such an argument would hardly be convincing to an outsider.

Also, I think my exegesis on the sun rising and setting in Surah 18 deserves a little more detail...it occurs to me that in a number of languages the word for "to" can mean "toward," in which case "toward the place where the sun rises/sets" could easily be an idiom for "eastward/westward." I don't know offhand if Arabic is one of these languages, but I wouldn't be surprised. So all by itself, that would be a plausible notion. But combine it with the details of the sun setting in a murky spring and rising near a village of people who are not shielding from the scorching effects, and it begins to look more literal. Consider all the details collectively, not separately, and I think you can see where I'm coming from.