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3rd October 2003, 08:59
#46
Senior Member
Hey Ronnie,
See how stubborn I can be? I am very well named, I think.
Cheers,
MULE
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3rd October 2003, 08:59
#47
Senior Member
Hey Ronnie,
See how stubborn I can be? I am very well named, I think.
Cheers,
MULE
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3rd October 2003, 09:24
#48
Veteran Member
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3rd October 2003, 09:24
#49
Veteran Member
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3rd October 2003, 09:33
#50
Senior Member
Peace Ronnie,
"Wouldn't life just be easier if Jesus said" I am God, worship me"?"
Yes, and if Jesus broke frrr off that cross with 100000 angels--that would make it alot easier to believe.
But Christ humbled Himself, ultamitely to teach us how God want us
to be. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
You doing great job, Mule. <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>
Blessings
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3rd October 2003, 09:33
#51
Senior Member
Peace Ronnie,
"Wouldn't life just be easier if Jesus said" I am God, worship me"?"
Yes, and if Jesus broke frrr off that cross with 100000 angels--that would make it alot easier to believe.
But Christ humbled Himself, ultamitely to teach us how God want us
to be. <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
You doing great job, Mule. <img src=icon_smile_cool.gif border=0 align=middle>
Blessings
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3rd October 2003, 09:35
#52
Actually, the charge of blasphemy was what the Jews were trying to label on Jesus (AS). They even accused him of calling himself the son of God, to which he replied:
"Is it not written in your law, "I said you are gods?" If he called them gods to whom the word of God came, do you say of him whom the Father has consecrated and sent to the world, "You are blaspheming" because I said "I am the son of God."
(John 10:34)
Jesus (AS) is actually referring to Psalms 82:1, 6-7. What is obviously clear is that the Jews were twisting the words of Jesus to try and accuse him of blasphemy, i.e. to put a halt to his message of proclaiming the kingdom of God, and at the same time lambasting the rabbis for their corruption. Jesus (AS) was very sharp in his usage of parables, such that even the manipulation by the Pharisees of his words could not stain him.
The example of the adulterer, and "He who has sinned, let him cast the first stone" was a response to the claim of the Israelites that Jesus (AS) supposedly went against the law. This answer reveals that it was not the law he was against, but the manipulation of the law by the rabbis.
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3rd October 2003, 09:35
#53
Actually, the charge of blasphemy was what the Jews were trying to label on Jesus (AS). They even accused him of calling himself the son of God, to which he replied:
"Is it not written in your law, "I said you are gods?" If he called them gods to whom the word of God came, do you say of him whom the Father has consecrated and sent to the world, "You are blaspheming" because I said "I am the son of God."
(John 10:34)
Jesus (AS) is actually referring to Psalms 82:1, 6-7. What is obviously clear is that the Jews were twisting the words of Jesus to try and accuse him of blasphemy, i.e. to put a halt to his message of proclaiming the kingdom of God, and at the same time lambasting the rabbis for their corruption. Jesus (AS) was very sharp in his usage of parables, such that even the manipulation by the Pharisees of his words could not stain him.
The example of the adulterer, and "He who has sinned, let him cast the first stone" was a response to the claim of the Israelites that Jesus (AS) supposedly went against the law. This answer reveals that it was not the law he was against, but the manipulation of the law by the rabbis.
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3rd October 2003, 09:50
#54
Senior Member
"Actually, the charge of blasphemy was what the Jews were trying to label on Jesus (AS). They even accused him of calling himself the son of God, to which he replied:
"Is it not written in your law, "I said you are gods?" If he called them gods to whom the word of God came, do you say of him whom the Father has consecrated and sent to the world, "You are blaspheming" because I said "I am the son of God."
(John 10:34)
If he wasn't God then it would have been blasphemy.
Here is the whole thing:
Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
Jhn 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jhn 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jhn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.
Jhn 10:39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
MULE
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3rd October 2003, 09:50
#55
Senior Member
"Actually, the charge of blasphemy was what the Jews were trying to label on Jesus (AS). They even accused him of calling himself the son of God, to which he replied:
"Is it not written in your law, "I said you are gods?" If he called them gods to whom the word of God came, do you say of him whom the Father has consecrated and sent to the world, "You are blaspheming" because I said "I am the son of God."
(John 10:34)
If he wasn't God then it would have been blasphemy.
Here is the whole thing:
Jhn 10:29 My Father, which gave [them] me, is greater than all; and no [man] is able to pluck [them] out of my Father's hand.
Jhn 10:30 I and [my] Father are one.
Jhn 10:31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
Jhn 10:32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
Jhn 10:33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
Jhn 10:34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
Jhn 10:35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
Jhn 10:36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
Jhn 10:37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
Jhn 10:38 But if I do, though ye believe not me, believe the works: that ye may know, and believe, that the Father [is] in me, and I in him.
Jhn 10:39 Therefore they sought again to take him: but he escaped out of their hand,
MULE
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3rd October 2003, 09:54
#56
Senior Member
Peace Ihsan,
"He who has [never] sinned, let him cast the first stone"
Jesus said this because He wanted to make it known that all of us sin, and that we mustn't kill another because he commits a sin.
Also, if Jesus wasn't the Son, then He would of said that when He was being questioned by the cheif priest.
The cheif priest asked Him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Living God?"
Jesus replied, "Yes, you have said it"
Because of this, he was condemned to death for blaspemy by the Jews.
Jesus died because of His answer.
Now, Ihsan, if Jesus wasn't the Son, He would have said
"No, that would be blashempemous"
And they would of let Jesus go, and everyone lives a happy life.
Blessings
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3rd October 2003, 09:54
#57
Senior Member
Peace Ihsan,
"He who has [never] sinned, let him cast the first stone"
Jesus said this because He wanted to make it known that all of us sin, and that we mustn't kill another because he commits a sin.
Also, if Jesus wasn't the Son, then He would of said that when He was being questioned by the cheif priest.
The cheif priest asked Him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Living God?"
Jesus replied, "Yes, you have said it"
Because of this, he was condemned to death for blaspemy by the Jews.
Jesus died because of His answer.
Now, Ihsan, if Jesus wasn't the Son, He would have said
"No, that would be blashempemous"
And they would of let Jesus go, and everyone lives a happy life.
Blessings
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3rd October 2003, 19:21
#58
Peace Ihsan,
"He who has [never] sinned, let him cast the first stone"
***Jesus said this because He wanted to make it known that all of us sin, and that we mustn't kill another because he commits a sin.***
If one studies the life of Jesus (AS), as portrayed in the Old Testament, it becomes abundantly clear that the Rabbis, Sadducees, and other 'learned' men were trying to halt the propagation efforts of the Nolbe Soul. They tried this through a series of means, including manipulating the words of Jesus (AS), and accusing him of blasphemy and abrogating the law. Of course none of this was true, and as Jesus (AS) explains in many of his speeches, they were trying to manipulate what he says.
The incident in question is related to this very point. All of these statements of Jesus (AS) happen when the rabbis have confronted Jesus (AS) in the public. They tried to put him in a position where he would have his back against the wall. Jesus (AS), as is clear from his speeches, told men how these learned were manipulating the law and destroying the very spirit it was meant to entail. This particular case the Jews tries to make Jesus (AS) say he did not believe in the law. Though Jesus (AS) was calling for the reform of the Israelites to perceive the moral nature of the law, he was confronted by these rabbis to 'expose him'. In this very smart answer, Jesus (AS) never denied the punishment of adultery, but made a statement that put the rabbis to shame. They were not implementing the law out of righteuousness, but hypocrisy, i.e. for their own benefit. The situation was not even where people realized the truth about religion, so how could they be punished?
***Also, if Jesus wasn't the Son, then He would of said that when He was being questioned by the cheif priest.
The cheif priest asked Him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Living God?"
Jesus replied, "Yes, you have said it"
Because of this, he was condemned to death for blaspemy by the Jews.
Jesus died because of His answer.***
The Jews TRIED TO KILL HIM FOR BLASPHEMY. The very incident quoted was the result of a situation similar to the above. The Jews, inorder to quell the message of jesus, tried to manipulate the meanoing of the word 'son of God'. There are two points that need to be made here:
1) The incident teaches that the Jews were allowed by the Romans to implement their own punishments. This very case, the Jews even tried to stone Jesus. Jesus (AS) replied with the very statement above, denying the usage of the word 'son of God' as implying divinity.
The Jews could not level the accusation directly that Jesus (AS) claimed he was divine, because he never did. But it was the intention of the Jews to actually try to do it so that they could put him to death. One needs to rememebr previously that they were involved in the murder of John the Baptist (AS) and previous Prophets (AS).
2) The NT teaches that Jesus (AS) was killed by the ROMANS, not the JEWS. Now obviously the attempt to kill him meant that it was not because he claimed divinity, but for some other reason. The Romans were not people who killed others because of this fact. They considered many men gods, including Caesar, and to perceive they punished Jesus (AS) because of this ia sburd in toto. It was the Jews who tried to kill Jesus (AS), and that is why in the Quran they claimed they achieved it. If they were successful in accusing him of blasphemy, then as the NT testifies, they themselves would not have needed the Romans to perform their work. The Romans allowed them to judge according to their own law.
***Now, Ihsan, if Jesus wasn't the Son, He would have said
"No, that would be blashempemous"
And they would of let Jesus go, and everyone lives a happy life.***
Anybody that reads the NT deeply would understand that Jesus (AS) never answered DIRECTLY when it came to his confrontation with the rabbis. This is simply because they were tring to subvert the meaning of his words to accuse him of blasphemy.
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3rd October 2003, 19:21
#59
Peace Ihsan,
"He who has [never] sinned, let him cast the first stone"
***Jesus said this because He wanted to make it known that all of us sin, and that we mustn't kill another because he commits a sin.***
If one studies the life of Jesus (AS), as portrayed in the Old Testament, it becomes abundantly clear that the Rabbis, Sadducees, and other 'learned' men were trying to halt the propagation efforts of the Nolbe Soul. They tried this through a series of means, including manipulating the words of Jesus (AS), and accusing him of blasphemy and abrogating the law. Of course none of this was true, and as Jesus (AS) explains in many of his speeches, they were trying to manipulate what he says.
The incident in question is related to this very point. All of these statements of Jesus (AS) happen when the rabbis have confronted Jesus (AS) in the public. They tried to put him in a position where he would have his back against the wall. Jesus (AS), as is clear from his speeches, told men how these learned were manipulating the law and destroying the very spirit it was meant to entail. This particular case the Jews tries to make Jesus (AS) say he did not believe in the law. Though Jesus (AS) was calling for the reform of the Israelites to perceive the moral nature of the law, he was confronted by these rabbis to 'expose him'. In this very smart answer, Jesus (AS) never denied the punishment of adultery, but made a statement that put the rabbis to shame. They were not implementing the law out of righteuousness, but hypocrisy, i.e. for their own benefit. The situation was not even where people realized the truth about religion, so how could they be punished?
***Also, if Jesus wasn't the Son, then He would of said that when He was being questioned by the cheif priest.
The cheif priest asked Him, "Are you the Christ, the Son of the Living God?"
Jesus replied, "Yes, you have said it"
Because of this, he was condemned to death for blaspemy by the Jews.
Jesus died because of His answer.***
The Jews TRIED TO KILL HIM FOR BLASPHEMY. The very incident quoted was the result of a situation similar to the above. The Jews, inorder to quell the message of jesus, tried to manipulate the meanoing of the word 'son of God'. There are two points that need to be made here:
1) The incident teaches that the Jews were allowed by the Romans to implement their own punishments. This very case, the Jews even tried to stone Jesus. Jesus (AS) replied with the very statement above, denying the usage of the word 'son of God' as implying divinity.
The Jews could not level the accusation directly that Jesus (AS) claimed he was divine, because he never did. But it was the intention of the Jews to actually try to do it so that they could put him to death. One needs to rememebr previously that they were involved in the murder of John the Baptist (AS) and previous Prophets (AS).
2) The NT teaches that Jesus (AS) was killed by the ROMANS, not the JEWS. Now obviously the attempt to kill him meant that it was not because he claimed divinity, but for some other reason. The Romans were not people who killed others because of this fact. They considered many men gods, including Caesar, and to perceive they punished Jesus (AS) because of this ia sburd in toto. It was the Jews who tried to kill Jesus (AS), and that is why in the Quran they claimed they achieved it. If they were successful in accusing him of blasphemy, then as the NT testifies, they themselves would not have needed the Romans to perform their work. The Romans allowed them to judge according to their own law.
***Now, Ihsan, if Jesus wasn't the Son, He would have said
"No, that would be blashempemous"
And they would of let Jesus go, and everyone lives a happy life.***
Anybody that reads the NT deeply would understand that Jesus (AS) never answered DIRECTLY when it came to his confrontation with the rabbis. This is simply because they were tring to subvert the meaning of his words to accuse him of blasphemy.
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3rd October 2003, 19:25
#60
To mule,
You have it reversed. It was the Jews who were trying to accuse Jesus (AS) of claiming divinity so that they could punish him. Jesus (AS) points to the OT to prove that this usage is not something new, and in fact, is used by these very rabbis in Psalms. Jesus (AS) is pointing to the fact that He has been sent by God, but this does not entail he is divine.
Othewrise, as is clear, the Jews could have found it very easy to stone him. This is what the whole context is about, the manipulation of Jesus' statements to try and convict him of blasphemy, and thus the punishment of death.
Read the context.
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Just kidding. If it said what you claim I would agree. But quite I honestly what I see is that the Jews accused him of such a thing not that Jesus claimed that for himself. See my point? Jesus wasn't saying I'm the son of God therefore I am God. You have taken two unrelated verses our of their context to try to support the concept.
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