Page 3 of 10 FirstFirst 12345678910 LastLast
Results 31 to 45 of 138

Thread: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

  1. #31
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    572

    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Jesus is the word of God which includes the word (verb) God used to speak things into existence.

    Here are questions, IMHO, you should ask yourself: "Why do we believe the same as Christians in the virgin birth? How come we don't know why Jesus had to have been born of virgin but Christians do? Since Christians were the first to teach that Jesus was born of a virgin, why don't we accept their explanation for the virgin birth especially since none was given to us?

    Why didn't Allah show he understood that the Christian trinity consisted of the father, son and Holy Spirit instead of implying Jesus, Mary and Allah? Why do we Muslims accept contradiction and discrepancy in the Quran and rebuke Christians for the problems in the Bible when they don't claim the Bible was written by God via dictation but by men inspired by God?

    Since we and the Christians believe Jesus is the word of God and Christians believe there is a connection to that and Him being virgin born, why don't we believe like the Christians that Jesus is eternal and uncreated? How can the word of God not be eternal and uncreated??? Why do we say we don't believe the word of God became flesh if Jesus (the word of God) was born as the son of man and Mary was His natural mother?"

    I honestly believe these are the types of question that would anger the prophet or the God of Islam! Muhammad said, "Allah hates you for asking too many questions" I have hundreds of question like these that just come to me as I read the Quran or listen to Muslim arguments. The biggest deal to me is that Islam is a reaction to Catholicism, and they never had a true concept of Biblical Christianity. Christianity is not a reaction to any religion and it comes from fulfilling of prophecy in the OT and the NT.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 25th June 2013 at 21:11.

  2. #32
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    227

    Question Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Jesus is the word of God which includes the word (verb) God used to speak things into existence.

    Here are questions, IMHO, you should ask yourself: "Why do we believe the same as Christians in the virgin birth? How come we don't know why Jesus had to have been born of virgin but Christians do? Since Christians were the first to teach that Jesus was born of a virgin, why don't we accept their explanation for the virgin birth especially since none was given to us?

    Why didn't Allah show he understood that the Christian trinity consisted of the father, son and Holy Spirit instead of implying Jesus, Mary and Allah? Why do we Muslims accept contradiction and discrepancy in the Quran and rebuke Christians for the problems in the Bible when they don't claim the Bible was written by God via dictation but by men inspired by God?

    Since we and the Christians believe Jesus is the word of God and Christians believe there is a connection to that and Him being virgin born, why don't we believe like the Christians that Jesus is eternal and uncreated? How can the word of God not be eternal and uncreated??? Why do we say we don't believe the word of God became flesh if Jesus (the word of God) was born as the son of man and Mary was His natural mother?"

    I honestly believe these are the types of question that would anger the prophet or the God of Islam! Muhammad said, "Allah hates you for asking too many questions" I have hundreds of question like these that just come to me as I read the Quran or listen to Muslim arguments. The biggest deal to me is that Islam is a reaction to Catholicism, and they never had a true concept of Biblical Christianity. Christianity is not a reaction to any religion and it comes from fulfilling of prophecy in the OT and the NT.
    Ques ; Why are you using Hadiyth's and not using the Scriptures to back up your cliam ?

  3. #33
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    572

    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Quote Originally Posted by Iysay View Post
    Ques ; Why are you using Hadiyth's and not using the Scriptures to back up your cliam ?
    Is that a bad thing? I can use the Quran to back up that Allah didn't show he understood that the Christian trinity consisted of the father, son and Holy Spirit; instead, he implies Jesus, Mary and Allah?

    I think the verse is S. 5: 116 Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as two deities (2 gods) besides Allah? Be careful some English translation of the Quran translate poorly by translating gods to worship or 2 gods for deities not specifying how many. An example would be - Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as deities.... ? This is dishonest scholarship and a pseudo translation. Personally, I believe it is done intentionally to evade questions like mine. You need it straight from the Arabic to understand my point. Most English translations of the Quran change the meaning of this verse and other verses to deceive new Muslims that cannot read Arabic. Be careful please!

    Why do Muslims accept contradiction and discrepancy in the Quran and rebuke Christians for the problems in the Bible when they don't claim the Bible was written by God via dictation but by men inspired by God?
    Last edited by Burninglight; 26th June 2013 at 20:15.

  4. #34
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    678

    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    How come we don't know why Jesus had to have been born of virgin but Christians do? Since Christians were the first to teach that Jesus was born of a virgin, why don't we accept their explanation for the virgin birth especially since none was given to us?
    you have no problem with NOT accepting the jewish interpretation of yhwh, messiah etc , then why have a problem with this explanation for virgin birth?


    Sahih International: Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.

    YUSUFALI: The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.



    your game "were the FIRST to teach..." the jews play this game here

    http://messiahtruth.yuku.com/forums/1#.Ucq-9PnVD2Q

    they show how you christians corrupt thier concepts in thier torah which came before christianity,jesus, nt and paul. since you christians have tried to mend relation ship between torah and nt DESPERATELY , why don't you do the same for the qur'aan. after this post i will not reply to you because i don't see any point.







    the pass over lamb
    http://callingchristians.com/2013/03...ate-sacrifice/

    AINT got NOthing to do with jesus.


    12 “On that same night I will pass through Egypt and strike down every firstborn of both people and animals, and I will bring judgment on all the gods of Egypt. I am the Lord. 13 The blood will be a sign for you on the houses where you are, and when I see the blood, I will pass overyou. No destructive plague will touch you .

    I read this 4 times, all I can derive from this is that yhwh terminated the egyptians 4 legged flesh gods and this proves that yheh is the boss and the god in control. It seems as if the jews are to CELEBRATE THE true god yhwh. The killing of 4 legged FLESH IS TO REMIND THEM OF THE AWESOME power of yhwh and how he handled the gods of egypt, what on Earth has this got to do with jesus murdrred flesh ?


    jesus , according to the nt , had a father called joseph and joseph named your god. both parents, according to luke, took your little god to jerusalem every year. all the masses must have assumed that jesus was josephs biological son. who would assume that yhwh gave birth to himself through his word in marys womb? according to matthew, jospeh has a dream not to divorce the pregnant mary, joseph had a dream not all of israel. so how did josephs dream prove to jerusalem that the son he took to jerusalem every year was not his biological son?





    Why didn't Allah show he understood that the Christian trinity consisted of the father, son and Holy Spirit instead of implying Jesus, Mary and Allah?



    Since we and the Christians believe Jesus is the word of God
    so was adam the word of god according to the qur'aan.



    and Christians believe there is a connection to that and Him being virgin born, why don't we believe like the Christians that Jesus is eternal and uncreated?
    adam was born without parents, your god had to form himself in a womb and drink milk for growth. since adam was gods word, then jesus' CREATION is similar to adam
    Last edited by theman09; 26th June 2013 at 10:22.

  5. #35
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    678

    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as two deities (2 gods) besides Allah?
    there are people who have explained this verse ON this forum, i might aswell post their explanation
    .


    EXPLANATIONS

    min doonilah





    5:72-75 says nothing about Mary being divine and nor is it concerned in refuting her divinity. Read 5:72-75 properly and see how it starts and is concerned in denying Jesus' divinity in the context of the trinity, and does not speak of any other personality as being divine. It denies his divinity by saying that he was a mortal, just like his mother who ate food like any mortal despite her exalted status so how then can God be born of a mortal woman whose essence is the opposite of Him?Mary being a mortal is pointed out in the context of Jesus' divinity.








    min doonilah





    In 5:116 the Quran accuses Chrisitians of taking Mary as an ilah. The word is used for any entity that is worshiped and other Christian denominations are the first to repudiate and denounce what anyone can witness today in Catholic churches, the excessive worship of Mary.




    When the Catholics spoken of in 5:116 address Mary in their prayers, they are taking her as a god besides/min doon Allah, like the pagans did when they prayed to other deities besides/min doon Allah 6:56,13:14-16 whom they also worshiped 31:25"And if you ask them who created the heavens and the earth, they will certainly say: Allah".
    When the pagans or the Christians address prayers to other entities than Allah whom they worship, they are taking gods besides Him regardless of whether they are aware of their polytheism/shirk or not. In fact the Quran repeatedly says how those who associate with Allah (other deities, saints or personalities, or their own selves) do so without even knowing it 29:61"And if you ask them, Who created the heavens and the earth and made the sun and the moon subservient, they will certainly say, Allah. Whence are they then turned away?"


    When their deviation is pointed to them, they deny their obvious polytheism and invent the same exact excuses Catholics say today when even their Christian brethren accuse them of idolatry 39:3"We do not serve them save that they may make us nearer to Allah". Catholics today claim that they do not worship Mary but simply ask her for intercession, exactly like the verse says, and this is because man's tendancy to deviate from the path of pure monotheism 12:106"And most of them do not believe in Allah without associating others (with Him)".







    trinity





    Not really. Clearest interpretation is what the text supports objectively. Objectively text doesn't say Mary is one of the 3. Text doesn't even say Jesus is one of the 3 as the emphasis is not who else is in the 3, but whether Allah is 1 of 3. It says simply says your Allah is One God and there is painful punishment for setting up partners with Allah. Nothing more and nothing less, that is the simplest interpretation.





    mary was worshipped as a god



    quote:

    In fact, new texts and re-readings of existing texts concerning Mary’s fate have led Stephen J. Shoemaker, an historian specializing in Late Antiquity, to conclude (“Epiphanius of Salamis, The Kollyridians, and Early Church Dormition Narratives: The Cult of the Virgin in the Fourth Century,” Journal of Early Christian Studies 16, no. 3 [Fall 2008]:374):

    “Finally, new developments in the early history of Marian piety have identified cultic veneration of the Virgin much earlier than many scholars had previously thought, bringing to light long overlooked Marian texts that offer potential clarification of the ritual practices ascribed to the Kollyridians.”

    According to Epiphanius, a heretical Christian sect known as the Kollyridians were said to offer loaves of bread to Mary. As Epiphanius phrases it (Panarion 78.23.4; Williams edition 2.618):
    “…certain Thracian women there in Arabia bake a loaf in the name of the Ever-virgin and gather together, and they attempt an excess and undertake a forbidden and blasphemous act in the holy Virgin’s name, celebrating offices in her name with women officiants.”

    So, Epiphanius himself attests to the existence of a form a worship that assumes that Mary is alive and able to appreciate such sacrifices.
    Shoemaker (“Epiphanius of Salamis…”p. 376) adds:

    “Marian veneration does not appear, as some would have it, only rather suddenly in the fifth century…Marian intercession is also evidenced by a papyrus fragment from fourth-century Egypt (or perhaps even the third century) that preserves an early prayer addressed to the Virgin. The earliest narratives of the Virgin’s Dormition also date to the later fourth century at the latest, bearing witness to a fully developed Marian piety already by this time.”
    __________________



    I have hundreds of question like these that just come to me as I read the Quran or listen to Muslim arguments.
    the jews to jesus before they slayed him :

    9Will you then say, “I am a god,”in the presence of those who kill you?
    You will be but a mortal, not a god,in the hands of those who slay you. ezekiel 28
    Last edited by theman09; 26th June 2013 at 11:12.

  6. #36
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    678

    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    I think the verse is S :5 116 Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as two deities (2 gods) besides Allah? Be careful some English translation of the Quran translate poorly by translating gods to worship or 2 gods for deities. Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as deities.... ? This is dishonest scholarship and pseudo translations, You need it straight from the Arabic to understand my point. Most English translations of the Quran change the meaning of this verse to ruin the point I am trying to make and it will deceive new Muslims that cannot read Arabic. Be careful please!





    Sahih International: And [beware the Day] when Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as deities besides Allah ?'" He will say, "Exalted are You! It was not for me to say that to which I have no right. If I had said it, You would have known it. You know what is within myself, and I do not know what is within Yourself. Indeed, it is You who is Knower of the unseen.

    IT is interesting to note that MIN DOONI DOES NOT mean EQUAL. the flesh animal gods, the flesh human gods, the statue gods are NOT EQUAL TO ALLAH when it uses min dooni for them.


    jesus says that the FATHER IS GREATER than him.

    he says , “I am not able to do anything from myself.”

    notice "my self"?

    if you look @ the greek

    Short Definition: I am powerful, am able
    Definition: (a ) I am powerful, have (the) power, (b) I am able, I can.

    to be powerful, able


    1410. dunamai
    1411 >>

    Word Origin
    a prim. verb
    Definition
    to be able, to have power

    now think about it .jesus says, "i AM NOT ABLE TO..." i.e he does not have the POWER from himself to DO.
    what joke of a god was this if "myself" = 3 my's in the trinity?


    so to add up


    jesus says , " the father is GREATER than him" he did not say , " the father is greater than me BUT NOT strONGER than me"

    he says that his self DOES NOT HAVE POWER to do...

    notice the QUR'AAN used the wordS MIN DOONI? min dooni is ALWAYS for NOT EQUALS , but lesser items.

    so USING new testament logic we can SEE that the QUR'AAN IS TELLING THE TRUTH.

    if jewish christians, (heretical ones because there were many different jewish sects back then) somewhere in jerusalem started to take jesus as an intermediary , they would have taken him NOT equal to yhwh, but as lesser god /intermediary. and using the new testament proves the point i am making.


    and do not forget that making something halal which God made haraam is seen as associating partners with God in the Qur'aan.


    goodbye
    Last edited by theman09; 26th June 2013 at 12:18.

  7. #37
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    678

    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    virgin birth and absurdity in the nt
    by ihsan


    So then how did the Israelites know about the virgin birth 30 plus years later? By word of mouth. The whole NT is testimony to the Israelites denial of his prophethood as well as miracles, accusing him of sorcery, but they just happened to believe he was born a virgin, because some unknown told them thirty years later that he was born miraculously? Why would God conceive Jesus in such a miraculous way if he did not want people to know of it when it occurred so as to protect the chastity of Mary? You would think that it was done so the people could be given a sign, just as the people were given a sign regarding John when Zechariah was given glad tidings of the miraculous birth of John... Wow.. The logic is impressive...

    In fact, according to your 'inerrant' author Matthew, upon which you base your rendition, this birth was fulfillment of a well-awaited prophecy, meaning the Israelites would have to know from the very beginning:

    All this took place to fulfill what the Lord had said through the prophet: “The virgin will conceive and give birth to a son, and they will call him Immanuel”[g] (which means “God with us”).
    Or how about Luke:

    Now there was a man in Jerusalem called Simeon, who was righteous and devout. He was waiting for the consolation of Israel, and the Holy Spirit was on him. It had been revealed to him by the Holy Spirit that he would not die before he had seen the Lord’s Messiah. Moved by the Spirit, he went into the temple courts. When the parents brought in the child Jesus to do for him what the custom of the Law required, Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:

    29 “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,
    you may now dismiss[d] your servant in peace.
    30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,
    31 which you have prepared in the sight of all nations:
    32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles,
    and the glory of your people Israel.”


    The child’s father and mother marveled at what was said about him. Then Simeon blessed them and said to Mary, his mother: “This child is destined to cause the falling and rising of many in Israel, and to be a sign that will be spoken against, so that the thoughts of many hearts will be revealed. And a sword will pierce your own soul too.”

    There was also a prophet, Anna, the daughter of Penuel, of the tribe of Asher. She was very old; she had lived with her husband seven years after her marriage, and then was a widow until she was eighty-four.[eShe never left the temple but worshiped night and day, fasting and praying. Coming up to them at that very moment, she gave thanks to God and spoke about the child to all who were looking forward to the redemption of Jerusalem.
    I guess nobody knew about the special nature of the child until Jesus began his mission thrity plus years later... You were saying?

    There is a reason the Quran actually protects the immaculate birth which result from the absurdities of the NT writers. It reveals one the miracles of the Quran, for if it was borrowing from the NT, it would have borrowed the illogical stories as well, including the fact that Jospeh was supposedly married to Mary when Jesus was conceived. I mean, I am not the brightest tool in the shed, but it really would be kind of foolish to provide a miracle of virgin birth to demonstrate the special nature of a child, when the woman who is suppose to carry the child is married..

  8. #38
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    572

    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Quote Originally Posted by theman09 View Post
    IT is interesting to note that MIN DOONI DOES NOT mean EQUAL. the flesh animal gods, the flesh human gods, the statue gods are NOT EQUAL TO ALLAH when it uses min dooni for them.


    jesus says that the FATHER IS GREATER than him.

    he says , “I am not able to do anything from myself.”

    notice "my self"?

    if you look @ the greek











    now think about it .jesus says, "i AM NOT ABLE TO..." i.e he does not have the POWER from himself to DO.
    what joke of a god was this if "myself" = 3 my's in the trinity?


    so to add up


    jesus says , " the father is GREATER than him" he did not say , " the father is greater than me BUT NOT strONGER than me"

    he says that his self DOES NOT HAVE POWER to do...

    notice the QUR'AAN used the wordS MIN DOONI? min dooni is ALWAYS for NOT EQUALS , but lesser items.

    so USING new testament logic we can SEE that the QUR'AAN IS TELLING THE TRUTH.

    if jewish christians, (heretical ones because there were many different jewish sects back then) somewhere in jerusalem started to take jesus as an intermediary , they would have taken him NOT equal to yhwh, but as lesser god /intermediary. and using the new testament proves the point i am making.


    and do not forget that making something halal which God made haraam is seen as associating partners with God in the Qur'aan.


    goodbye
    Good bye? You say goodbye; I say hello, LOL. I guess I am not fully understanding you and Islamic belief or you are missing my point altogether.

    Christians didn't corrupt the Torah. The Jews have many copies that Christians had no access to; then there are the copies the Greeks have. All we have to do is compare and contrast with the ten's of thousands of copies on file. This cannot be done with the Quran because Uthman burned all the originals; besides, the Bible and Quran were received in different ways from God; for instance, the Quran was received by dictation directly from God through an angel so there is no tolerance for discrepancies of any sought, but the Bible wasn't received that way. It was received by men inspired by God; therefore, we will receive a lot of man's concepts of spiritual things God has done, but the truth necessary for our souls is preserved.

    Jesus wasn't able to do anything on His own. He was a direct vessel who was full of God's spirit. He was a man (The son of man). Of course God is greater in position, function and office, but they were equal in essence, nature and character. That is why Jesus said "When you have seen me you have seen the father" (God) or "Before Abraham was I am." We do not believe Jesus is God (the father) come down in flesh, but we believe Jesus is all that God is, but not all there is to God.

    Christians know Jesus is not God's partner or associate; He is God's word as stated in the Bible and the Quran. If we believe He is the word of God (which no Muslim denies), then it must follow that he is God's word made flesh. If Jesus (the word) wasn't flesh, then what was He made of?

    Now if we want to be logical we can reason that God's word is God's power; God's word is eternal and uncreated. God's word is what saves us; God's word is all we have to know that God exists; God's word created all things. The Bible states that all things were made by Him for Him and through Him.

    We believe man's power to corrupt God's word is not more powerful than God's power to preserve His word regardless of when it was given! Now it was the Bible (the NT Bible) that teaches that Jesus was born of a virgin and therefore the son of God. That doesn't mean that we believe God seared Jesus.

    My biggest point is the only place documented before the Quran came into existence that Jesus was born of a virgin is in the NT Bible and it is not excepted by the Jews that Jesus was virgin born.

    So I can make a good argument that Islam borrowed that from the Christians, but they reject the reason given for His virgin birth. The Bible explains why he was born of a virgin, but the Quran doesn't which further supports my conclusion and no Muslim can gainsay this accept to say Muhammad got it from Allah and not the Christians. That doesn't convince me. If I did a term paper that said the same thing another author said before me and I didn't cite my source, I would be accused of plagiarizing. I couldn't say "Oh I didn't get that information from him; it came out of my head"

    Someone please be honest and tell me you at least see my point even if you don't agree with it. I see too much deception and little truth please. Let's call a spade a spade! Thank you!
    Last edited by Burninglight; 26th June 2013 at 16:23.

  9. #39
    Banned
    Join Date
    Jan 2010
    Posts
    678

    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it


    Of course God is greater in position, function and office, but they were equal in essence, nature and character. .
    so in trinity, the father is greater than the son god , but not STRONGER than him?
    if the son god is NOT in control of the father and spirit gods, then how is it that the son god is not ABLE to do anything on his own? each gods are co equal gods ,none of them, according to christian theology, are CONTROLLED by the other, so what the hell do you mean , "wasn't able to do..." you worship 3 gods, each which has its own power.
    if the son had a race with the father would he make himself come second because of his status? WHERE IS GREATNESS DERIVED FROM IF NOT ESSENCE OF GOD? WHY do you have hierachy in persons who are not DEPENDANT on each other and have their OWN power? this makes sense?


    let me teach you your religion.

    the father is not the trinity
    the son is not the trinity
    the spirit is not the trinity
    the father is not the son
    the son is not the father
    and you know the rest
    if the father is not the trinity , then he is SUBSET of the trinity
    the father is not 3 persons

    the trinity , according to you people, is "i" "he" "my" "him"

    jesus said , " i am unable/don't have power to do of my ownself"

    but if trinity = "my" /who ,then trinitarian jesus IS A LIAR!

    Now if we want to be logical we can reason that God's word is God's power; God's word is eternal and uncreated. God's word is what saves us; God's word is all we have to know that God exists; God's word created all things. The Bible states that all things were made by Him for Him and through Him.
    when the 3 gods you worship communicate with each other in trinity, do they have mouth of thier own? is gods word an IDENTITY /person/being attached to the fathers mouth? DID god make himself in marys WOMB through his word? did gods word SEPERATE himself from the fathers mouth and dwell in marys womb? did that make the father SPEECHLESS? did god create version 2 of himself through his word?

    you know i don't think you would see absurdity even if it slapped you in the face.
    god said , " let there be light"

    so the WORDS " let there be light" is another person coming out from gods mouth? god is speaking a distinct person from himself? so what does the spirit person do? help out the son in making light? or does he sit down and watch the father speak out the son and then watch the son doing work for the father? so what does the father do when the son is doing work for him? does the father also assist in making light along with the spirit? if yes, then why did he have to speak out the son before he started work by himself? lol



    So I can make a good argument that Islam borrowed that from the Christians, but they reject the reason given for His virgin birth. The Bible explains why he was born of a virgin, but the Quran doesn't which further supports my conclusion and no Muslim can gainsay this accept to say Muhammad got it from Allah and not the Christians. That doesn't convince me. If I did a term paper that said the same thing another author said before me and I didn't cite my source, I would be accused of plagiarizing. I couldn't say "Oh I didn't get that information from him; it came out of my head"

    DOzens of reasons can be derived for the virgin birth in the qur'aan. all over the iternet these reasons are discussed. on this forum the reasons are discussed. the main website for this forums has written articles about the virgin birth.

    now you jump to plagiarizing



    there are good arguments that mark stole scenes from the ot to construct the rASIng of jairu's daughter
    and matthew realised marks DEPENDANCE on ot narrative and tried to make changes to marks lock step copying

    Why Matthew changed the way Mark wrote about Jairus’ daughter and the hemorrhaging woman
    http://vridar.wordpress.com/2011/07/...rhaging-woman/

    Reasons to entertain a smidgen of doubt about Jesus raising the daughter of Jairus
    http://vridar.wordpress.com/2011/07/...ter-of-jairus/

    why did god in christianity have to be born to a virgin ?

    god in the bible sent laws to the jews to help them. the laws didn't help so he sent himself by making himself in a womans womb and then he had to drink milk for growth. he sent himself to get murdered because he couldn't send funtional laws .



    This cannot be done with the Quran because Uthman burned all the originals;
    you think about this absurdity of yours for 1 second. muslims in syria are reciting in different dialects and muslims in iraq are reciting in different dialects. they both have MEMORIZED their alledged versions. EVERYTIME those muslims in LOCATIONS OUTSIDE of arabia were FORCED to give up thier alleaged versions they would have RESISTED, right? and if they RAN , then surely WE WOULD FIND cross fertilization of VARIANT versions WITH IN the manuscript evidence which we have now. we would have SCRIBE x at later date use his ALLEGED version and that would get mixed with the version in arabia if the 2 versions TRAVELLED NORTH.
    How did uthman BURN the memories of the huffadh living in IRAQ and syria LOL? and if they THOUGH uthman had a DIFFERENT QUR'AN SURELY their MEMORIES WOULD HAVE INFECTED the writing PROCESS.out of all the manuscript we have, all quraanS TILL this day are in agrement. all variant readings are accepted by all muslim .
    Last edited by theman09; 26th June 2013 at 20:20.

  10. #40
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    227

    Exclamation Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Is that a bad thing? I can use the Quran to back up that Allah didn't show he understood that the Christian trinity consisted of the father, son and Holy Spirit; instead, he implies Jesus, Mary and Allah?

    I think the verse is S :5 116 Allah will say, "O Jesus, Son of Mary, did you say to the people, 'Take me and my mother as two deities (2 gods) besides Allah? Be careful some English translation of the Quran translate poorly by translating gods to worship or 2 gods for deities. Allah will say: "O Isa (Jesus) son of Maryam (Marry), Did you ever say to the people, "worship me and my mother as deities.... ? This is dishonest scholarship and pseudo translations, You need it straight from the Arabic to understand my point. Most English translations of the Quran change the meaning of this verse to ruin the point I am trying to make and it will deceive new Muslims that cannot read Arabic. Be careful please!

    Why do Muslims accept contradiction and discrepancy in the Quran and rebuke Christians for the problems in the Bible when they don't claim the Bible was written by God via dictation but by men inspired by God?

    Thankyou Burninglight for the Verse , It seens like (Some people ) today rather post Hadiyth's without using Scriptures . Lets get something straight not all Christians Accept the Trinity . I have discuss / debated Christian on other Christian forum on the same subject .

    Some Christian try to use 1John 5 - 7 , God The Father , God The Son And God The Holy Spirit . Things that make one go Hummmm. God The Father , Then you have humanity as his childred and the Holy Ghost are The Angels . They are using 1John 5 ; 7 as if it is Authentic when in fact it has been proven to be a distorted Scriptures nor does it exist in any of The Original Manuscripts . Overstand I don't try to Discrredit anything or anyone , I just want / state the Facts and I am only interested in the Facts . When the Bible was in it's Original Language Of Aramic ( Hebrew ) Arabic and Galilean Arabic , The verse 1John 5 ; 7 , That ( Has Become The Foundation For The 3Being In 1 Concept Called The Trinity , ( Did Not Exist . Is also Did Not Exist In Greek . )

    The distortion with the onset of The Roman Catholic Church . The Roman Catholics ( inserted the trinity verse when they translated The Bible from Greek to Latin ) . I purposely said '' Inserted '' And not '' Translated'' Because , As I've already said the original Greek did not have this Verse . However , You will find some Greek translations have either the whole Trinity verse or only a portion of it . 1John 5 ; 7 is surrounded in controversy because there are two versions of this Your Bibilical Scholars say 1 John 5 ; 7 , That is used in most Bibles today , Is either not the original verse , Or they say that its only partially genuine . There have been many arguments between scholars on this many arguments between Scholars on be any arguments because the Original Aramic and the Greek Manuscripts don't have this 1John 5 ; 7 in it .

    The problem is they really don't want to admit that the Trinity really has no basis in the teaching of Jesus , Making the Trinitarian Churches and any other Sects that believe in this 3 In 1 Concept , Obsolete . Furthermore , In The Ancient Eastern Manuscripts By George M . Lamsa , Which is a Bible that is Translated from the original Aramacic and Syriac language , On Page 1222 , In 1John 5 ; 7 , You will see that the original Verse ssays this .

    Original Verse And I Quote ; And The Sprit Testifies That That Very Spirit Is The Truth ''

    Mistranslation And I Quote ; This Is He Who Came By Water And Blood , Evev Jesus Christ , Not By . Verse 7 . And The Spirit Testifies That That Very Spirit Is The Truth . Verse 8 . And There Are Three To Bear Witness , The Spirit And . The Water And The Blood ; And These Three Are One .

    Now , when you read 1 John 5 ; 7 In your Standard Bible , You will read this . And I Quote ; For There Are Three That Bear Record In Heaven , The ( Father ) , The ( Word ) , And The ( Holy Ghost ) ; And These ( Three Are One ) .

    Do you see how the Verse were distorted ? They are both 1John 5 ; 7 , But they don't say the same things ? That because in your Standard or Revised Edition Bible , You will find the original Verse 5 ; 7 Has been actually pushed up to merge with Verse 5 ; 6 . Now , Look at 1John 5 ; 6 below .

    '' This Is He That Came By Water And Blood , Even Jesus Christ ; Not By Water Only , But By Water And Blood . ( And It Is The Spirit That Beareth Witness Because The Spirit Is Truth ,

    The underlined segment is really the original 1 John 5 ; 7 . By combining the original Verses 5 ; 6 And 5 ; 7 together , This left Verse 5 ; 7 made it conviently free to insert the false '' Trinity '' Verse .

    Just in case you think I made this up , Clarke's Commentary also states that in the very early Bibles , This verse Didn't Exist . , Clarke's Commentary says this about 1John 5 ; 7 .

    '' But it is likely this verse is not Genuine . It is wanting ( Missing ) in every M . S . ( Mamuscript ) of this Epistle written before the invention of printing , One expected , The codex montfortii , In Trinity College , Dublin ; The others which omit this verse amount to one hundred and twelve . It is wanting ( Missing ) in both the Syriac . All the Arabic , Ethiopic , The Coptic , Sahidic , Armenian , Slavonian , In a word , In all The Ancient Versions , But the Vulgate ; And even of this version many of the most Ancient and Correct MSS. Have it not . It is wanting ( Missing ) also in all Ancient Greek father ; And in most even of the Latin .

    Then there are those Scholars who say . That only part of this quote is Genuine once again , Let's go back to 1 John 5 ; 7 , In your Standard Bible , And I Quote ; ' '' For There Are Three That Bear Record In Heaven . The Father , The Word , And The Holy Ghost ; And These Three Are One .

    The underlined part of this quote is the part that your Scholars say is Genuine . Some Bibles are equipped with notes and small commentaries to help you overstand the verses you are reading . If you have such a Bible . It will most likely say the same thing . For instance on page 1776 In The Ryrie Study Bible It says ; Verse 7 . For there are three that bear record in heaven , the Father the Word , and the Holy Ghost and these three are one .

    Commentary ~ 5 ; 7-8 , Sould end with the word record ..... The remainder of Verse 7 . and part of Verse 8 . are not in any Ancient Greek manuscript . only in later Latin manuscripts .

    Now , They say Verse 7 . and Verse 8 is only Partially Genuine . There are even some Greek translations that also support this version . But that's because they were translated from English back into Greek . 1John 5 ; 7 was just another way to Confuse and Add another False Sect and Belief . Most Christian don't know these things , And knowing most Christians don't research things .

    It is one of those things that are kept Quiet because that would be the End of some people's Faith and that is something that people who promote Religion for a Profit can't afford to do .

  11. #41
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    227

    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    For Burninglight part two of post # 40 .

    If Yashu'a is God then who was he Praying to in Matthew 6 ; 9 - 13 , He says , '' Our Father Who Art In Heaven '' , So he's not God or otherwise he would've been ( Praying To Himself ) . Let me point out to you that Yashu'a was an Israelite . It is common sense that Yashu'a would not ( Violate ) such a powerful Israelite Judaic command as the worship of God alone ( Exodus 20 - 3-4 ) By claiming ro be that very God whom he prayer to in Matthew 26 ; 39 , And I Quote ; And he went a litte farther , And ( Fell On His Face ) , And ( Prayed ) . Saying , O my ( Father ) .

    Think about it , It doesn't make much sense for Yashu'a ( To Pray To Himself ) . If Yashu'a was
    God . ( He Wouldn't Have No Need To Pray Because If He Did , To Whom , Would He Pray ? )

    In several quote in The New Testament Yashu'a made it clear that you are to worship ( God / Yahuwa ) And not him . When he made reference to God / Yahuwa . He used The Third Person Singular '' Him '' Not The First Person Singular '' Me . In Yashu'a says And I Quote ; And Jesus answered and said untoi him . Ge thee behind me ; Satan ; For it is written , Thou shalt worship the lord thy ( God ) And ( Him ) only shalt thou serve '' < He Said Worship ( Him ) Not Me ) .

    In John 4 ; 23 - 24 Yashu'a states again in The Red Letter Writing of your Bible And I Quote ; But the hour cometh , And now is when the true Worshippers shall Worship the Father in spirit and in truth ; For the Father seeketh such to Worship Him . God is a spirit and they that Worship Him must Worship Him in spirit and in truth . < He Said Worship ( Him ) Not Me ) .

    And in John 14 ; 10 , Yashu'a ( Gives All Praise And Gratitude To ( His Heavenly Father ) And I Quote ; Believest thou not that I am in the Father , And the Father in me ? The words that I speak unto you I speak Not Of Mtself ; But the Father that dwelleth inme , He Doeth The Work . < He Used The Word ( He Not Me ) .

    No man's body ( Can Contain God ) . Now if you mean that he has The Essence of his Father in Him . Then all men are God's Sons and Daughters , Read ( Genesis 2 ; 7 ) When God breathe into man the breath of life ; '' And The Lord God Formed Man From The Dust Of The Ground And Breathed Into ( His Nostrils The Breath Of Life ) ; And Man Became A Living Soul . ''

    However , Getting back to the point whether he incarnated or came himself , There still wouldn't be any need for him to pray or ask for assistance ( From Anyone ) if he was God , The Creator . Can't you see that ? Not only would he not need to Pray , He would have no desire to Eat Meat . ( Luke 24 ; 41 ) , Beg That Death Passes Him ( Matthew 26 ; 39 ) . Fear And Ran For His Life ( John 18 ; 3 ) Which mean that '' God '' Has to run from his Creations . It seems like you totally ignored all of these Scriptures and found one that sound good to you , And ( Built A Whole Doctrine From It ) .

    Another quality that Yashu'a did not possess according to Romans 13 ; 1 and 2Corinthians 1 ; 23 , Is the power to assign the Souls their positions in the Hereafter . According to the author of these 2 Books which was Paul , Only The Heavenly Father possess such power . Exalting Yashu'a beyond the truth is shown to be a form of ( Idolatry ) . Once again in Matthew 7 ; 21 , Yashu'a tells people to do the will of The Father . And I Quote ; '' Not every one that saith unto me , ( Lord , Lord ) shall enter into the ( Kingdom of Heaven ) ; But he that doeth the will of ( My Father ) which is Heaven ....

    In both Luke 4 ; 8 and Matthew 4 ; 10 , We come across an incident that clearly contradicts the concept of Yashu'a claiming absolute divinity . According to these Two references Matthew 27 ; 46 and Marked 15 ; 34 , Yashu'a was put on the cross left to die . Then according to crucifixion Yashu'a cried in a ( Loud Voice ) . And I Quote ; Matthew 27 ; 46 , And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice , Saying , Eli , Eli , Lama Sabacthani ? That is to say , My God , My God , Why hast thou forsaken me ? ''

    Mark 15 ; 34 . And I Quote ; ''And at the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice , Saying Elol , Elol Lama Sabachthani ? Which is , Being interpreted , My God , My God , Why hast thou forsaken me ?

    If Yashu'a was God he would not have to say any of these things in the first place . How could you possibly forsake your ownself ? If he was God or El as it is used in this quote . He would not need consent from anyone . Overstand . This could not possibly be the words of a person who saw himself as ( The Controller Of All Life And Death ) Because he cried out '' My God .... It simply isn't logical . Yashu'a never encouraged anyone to worship Him . Instead , He taught others to Worship His Father as I have just shown you by using The Scriptures .

  12. #42
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    572

    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    I feel like we are going around in circles. I have already said for the nth time that Jesus is not God (the father) so he was not praying to himself. There is not 3 gods that Christians worship. Because Muslims say we do doesn't make it true. We know who we worship. God is Spirit; God is Holy; God is the Holy Spirit and not Gabriel. Jesus is God's word as stated in both the Quran and the Bible. We believe God's word is nothing short of eternal and uncreated.

    God created men in His image and likeness as recorded in the Torah. We believe that. The only example I can give or the only way I can relate to God's tri unity is by looking at me. I am a soul, I have a body and a spirit. I am not three people; I am one; not two not three. I am not God, but if I were, and if I wanted to make my spirit a person and my soul a person and my body a person, who has the authority and power to tell me I cannot do it? Answer this question along with these: How could God say be and it is" How can God always have existed? Exactly how did He stretch out the heavens. How can he see all things in all different places. How can he be eternal and uncreated with no beginning and end. How can he raise the dead?

    My point is you don't have answers for these questions and yet you believe; well it is the same with us Christians. We believe what came first. The Bible, for instance, has the authority on the virgin birth. I don't disagree with the Quran when it states Jesus was born of a virgin; we have that in common. I just respect the authority of the Bible more, because it originated there first as hell as heaven and even monotheism came from the Jews and the Christianity. Islam was the last to come up with it. During pre Islamic history there were some 360 pagan deities or more.

    So Judaism and Christianity have the monopoly on monotheism, but we agree with Islam in the sense that God is one and without partners!

    If you pick on Christianity having partners then take a real close look at the second part of your shahada!

  13. #43
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    227

    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    I feel like we are going around in circles. I have already said for the nth time that Jesus is not God (the father) so he was not praying to himself. There is not 3 gods that Christians worship. Because Muslims say we do doesn't make it true. We know who we worship. God is Spirit; God is Holy; God is the Holy Spirit and not Gabriel. Jesus is God's word as stated in both the Quran and the Bible. We believe God's word is nothing short of eternal and uncreated.

    God created men in His image and likeness as recorded in the Torah. We believe that. The only example I can give or the only way I can relate to God's tri unity is by looking at me. I am a soul, I have a body and a spirit. I am not three people; I am one; not two not three. I am not God, but if I were, and if I wanted to make my spirit a person and my soul a person and my body a person, who has the authority and power to tell me I cannot do it? Answer this question along with these: How could God say be and it is" How can God always have existed? Exactly how did He stretch out the heavens. How can he see all things in all different places. How can he be eternal and uncreated with no beginning and end. How can he raise the dead?

    My point is you don't have answers for these questions and yet you believe; well it is the same with us Christians. We believe what came first. The Bible, for instance, has the authority on the virgin birth. I don't disagree with the Quran when it states Jesus was born of a virgin; we have that in common. I just respect the authority of the Bible more, because it originated there first as hell as heaven and even monotheism came from the Jews and the Christianity. Islam was the last to come up with it. During pre Islamic history there were some 360 pagan deities or more.

    So Judaism and Christianity have the monopoly on monotheism, but we agree with Islam in the sense that God is one and without partners!

    If you pick on Christianity having partners then take a real close look at the second part of your shahada!

    According to the above here your trying to play both side of the game here . You know like the Sunday morning Minster , They talk for hours saying nothing . I see your back to the Hadiyth's again . No sciptures to back up your cliam . By the way noone picking on Christians , By the way Yashu'a wasn't a christian .

    Tell me what the meaning of the word Eloheem ?

  14. #44
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    572

    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Quote Originally Posted by Iysay View Post
    According to the above here your trying to play both side of the game here . You know like the Sunday morning Minster , They talk for hours saying nothing . I see your back to the Hadiyth's again . No sciptures to back up your cliam . By the way noone picking on Christians , By the way Yashu'a wasn't a christian .

    Tell me what the meaning of the word Eloheem ?
    I am not trying to play any games with anyone. I don't care about the Sunday morning minsters; I am talking to you not them.

    I don't know what you mean by now that I am back to the hadith. Jesus being a word from Allah is in the Quran and every Muslim I ever spoke to admits Jesus is the word of God.

    I don't have a problem with Jesus not being a Christian or with me not being considered one. My goal is to follow Jesus the way He followed the father, because He is the way, the truth and the life back then, now, and forever and for all peoples... As Jesus states: "No one comes unto the father (God) except through me" If you think I am saying a bunch of nothing, on the judgment day you may be judging me or I you.

    I choose Jesus' way instead of Muhammad's way. It is a choice that I am free to make. Jesus said, "You will die in you sins unless you believe I am He" I for one do not want to die in my sin. I cannot speak for you.

    PBUY from me.

    BTW, what I said in my post before this last post can be backed with Scripture. What portion do you want first? Moreover, the interpolation in 1 Jn 5 about the trinity was put in the KJV version of the Bible by an over zealous scribe. We know about it, and it doesn't mean that it wasn't true. It is just not part of the original manuscripts. No one can corrupt God's word!
    Last edited by Burninglight; 26th June 2013 at 22:54.

  15. #45
    Senior Member
    Join Date
    Jun 2013
    Posts
    227

    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    I am not trying to play any games with anyone. I don't care about the Sunday morning minsters; I am talking to you not them.

    I don't know what you mean by now that I am back to the hadith. Jesus being a word from Allah is in the Quran and every Muslim I ever spoke to admits Jesus is the word of God.

    I don't have a problem with Jesus not being a Christian or with me not being considered one. My goal is to follow Jesus the way He followed the father, because He is the way, the truth and the life back then, now, and forever and for all peoples... As Jesus states: "No one comes unto the father (God) except through me" If you think I am saying a bunch of nothing, on the judgment day you may be judging me or I you.

    I choose Jesus' way instead of Muhammad's way. It is a choice that I am free to make. Jesus said, "You will die in you sins unless you believe I am He" I for one do not want to die in my sin. I cannot speak for you.

    PBUY from me.

    BTW, what I said in my post before this last post can be backed with Scripture. What portion do you want first? Moreover, the interpolation in 1 Jn 5 about the trinity was put in the KJV version of the Bible by an over zealous scribe. We know about it, and it doesn't mean that it wasn't true. It is just not part of the original manuscripts. No one can corrupt God's word!
    Isa , Yashu's Jesus, Never said anything in Bible . All four Gospels were written a ( Number of years apart ) .

    Matthew 41 A.D. 8 Years after The Supposed Crucifixion .
    Luke 58 A.D. 25 Years after The Supposed Crucifixion .
    Mark 65 A.D. 32 Years after The Supposed Crucifixion .
    John 98 A.D. 65 Years after The Supposed Crucifixion .

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •