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Thread: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

  1. #16
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    Can you recall when I explained the Hebrew words "echad" and "yachid"? I agreed with the Jewish idea that calling Allah "unique" is more appropriate than calling Him "one" b/c of the issue of singularity being relative to creation. This is simply a matter of human limitation. How else would you define something which existed in and of itself and isn't like anything our minds can conceive? Saying Allah is "One" is the only option we have.

    Christian doctrine is not beyond my understanding. I should remind you that you're talking to a former Christian.

    Again, you're being illogical! Believing in the Bible b/c the Bible tells you to believe in it is circular reasoning.

    Peace


  2. #17
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    I've noticed that our posts have strayed far off the subject of this thread, so this will be my last post on it unless it goes back to the original subject of the Qur'an's preservation.


  3. #18
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    Peace,

    Okay, but let me answer to you first.

    God is unique, that is true. A Triune God is unique.
    That is far beyond our comprehension as well.
    This argument ends here!

    You may have been a Christian at one time, but I doubt you really understood your faith as I have. I have not become a Muslim.

    "circular reasoning."
    Hah! you, my friend, are the one using circular reasoning!
    You cannot prove the Quran with Muhammed or vice versa.
    You cannot prove God's will with the Quran or vice versa.
    The Prophets, peace on them, do not back up or confirm the Quran,
    only what the prophets say IN the Quran.
    Unless you have something pre-Quranic to support Islam, you have nothing! There is nothing in the Bible to support Islam.
    ...


    Just because the Quran may be well preserved doesn't mean it is true to begin with. The Bible is well preserved. The Bagavad Gita is well preserved. The Adi Granth is well preserved. The Ramanana and Mahabarta are also well preserved. And there are perhaps a few others. Are all these faiths true based on this reason?


    Blessings


  4. #19
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    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    1. " God transcends time, space and matter" I agree
    2. "The concepts of plurality and numbers are relative to creation" The concepts of singularity are relative to creation. Is not one a NUMBER?
    3. "Since the concepts of plurality and numbers are always relative to creation, it is impossible to apply them to Allah, who transcends creation" Since one is a number, why wouldn't that apply to your rule as well?
    4. "Thus, Allah could not be three "persons" b/c He was who He is before the concept of three ever existed" You logic is flawed. God is who He was before the concept of one as well. There isn't three Gods there is only one God who exists as the father, son and Holy Sprit. Who is man to say God cannot exist as He says He does?

    Islam says God has no son, but what do you call Adam who was created in the image and likeness of God? If he wasn't God's created son than what was he? Besides, did God lie when He said; "This is my beloved son (Jesus) in whom I am well pleased...?"

    Now, Jesus is the last Adam. He is according to the Bible and the Quran the word of God/Allah. Logic and reason alone tell us that if Jesus is the word of God, he is uncreated and eternal. You see Jesus is the WORD God used to speak all things into existence. That is why He could say "I am the way..." No other prophet could say that. They can only say I show the way, truth and the life. But Jesus said I am those things. Don't you know that there is a difference between showing and being?

    Jesus is the exact representation of all that God is incarnate. Jesus is all that God is but no all there is to God. He is as Augustine said, Christ not valued unless He is valued above all.

    It is written in the Bible: "God judges no one but has committed all judgment unto the son so that we might honor the son the same as the father." If we don't honor Jesus the same, we do not submit to God or honor God.

    God preserved all His Scripture. Any new Scripture cannot come against what God said before; otherwise, we must suspect it. If God couldn't preserve the Scripture that came before, then He wouldn't be able to preserve what comes after.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 17th June 2013 at 14:14. Reason: add

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    There isn't three Gods there is only one God who exists as the father, son and Holy Sprit.
    there are 3 gods, is each person in trinity a single person?
    so if the son is an "i" and the father is an "i" and the spirit is an "i"
    then there are 3 i's

    so u worship nonsense which is "me are 3 i's"?

    you said god is 3, then what is EACH one of the 3?
    Last edited by theman09; 17th June 2013 at 15:14.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    "This is my beloved son (Jesus) in whom I am well pleased...?"
    what is pleasing to the trinity gods? the father is pleased for creating the flesh and blood of jesus? or are the 3 co equals pleased with each other ? "this is my co equal with whom i am well pleased" ?

    or " my is 3 my's beloved son in whom i am 3 i's am well pleased"

    You see Jesus is the WORD God used to speak all things into existence.
    do the 3 gods in the trinity have a mouth for each of thier persons? if yes then do they each have the ability to spea k? or does the father have the person of jesus attached to his mouth? what is going on?




    No other prophet could say that
    and you have read the ot and couldn't find why jews think that obeying yhwhs laws are the only way to yhwh?
    Last edited by theman09; 17th June 2013 at 15:16.

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Jesus is the exact representation of all that God is incarnate
    before you read the following verses, remember that your incarnate god had to eat and drink
    he went to sleep. he became tired. he had to breath in oxygen.

    and he DIDN'T know that a tree had figs on it


    “he was hungry. And seeing in the distance a fig tree in leaf, he went to see if he could find anything on it. When he came to it he found nothing but leaves, for it was not the season for figs”

    so i guess "super sight" and "all knowing " was switched off.

    now lets use scripture against your claim

    1The word of the Lord came to me: 2“Son of man, say to the ruler of Tyre, ‘This is what the Sovereign Lord says:

    “ ‘In the pride of your heart
    you say, “I am a god;
    I sit on the throne of a god
    in the heart of the seas.”

    But you are a mere mortal and not a god,
    though you think you are as wise as a god.
    3Are you wiser than Daniel ?

    Is no secret hidden from you?

    4By your wisdom and understanding
    you have gained wealth for yourself
    and amassed gold and silver
    in your treasuries.
    5By your great skill in trading
    you have increased your wealth,
    and because of your wealth
    your heart has grown proud.
    6“ ‘Therefore this is what the Sovereign Lord says:

    “ ‘Because you think you are wise,
    as wise as a god,
    7I am going to bring foreigners against you,
    the most ruthless of nations;
    they will draw their swords against your beauty and wisdom
    and pierce your shining splendor.
    8They will bring you down to the pit,
    and you will die a violent death

    in the heart of the seas.
    9Will you then say, “I am a god,”
    in the presence of those who kill you?
    You will be but a mortal, not a god,
    in the hands of those who slay you.
    10You will die the death of the uncircumcised
    at the hands of foreigners.
    I have spoken, declares the Sovereign Lord.’ ”



    so the LOGIC of the torah is that if a person is SLAYED , in the presence of those who slay him , then he = mere mortal. and which jesus slayer recieved visions of jesus?
    so think about it, scripture can be used against christianity.

    don't try that game of "the flesh died , but the spirit didn't" all pagan gods and human gods could have used that argument when they were being slayed.
    Last edited by theman09; 17th June 2013 at 15:50.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    No one is playing games with you. God said in an audible voice that Jesus is His beloved son, and it is documented in the Scriptures that God promised to preserve. Jesus said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life...no man comes to the father (God) except through me." He said it. I believe it, and that settles it for me. Now, you don't play the game by saying Jesus was the truth for His time only as was Moses for his and Muhammad for his. Jesus didn't say I show the truth for now; He said, "I am" not "I show" and the Spirit of truth would come to glorify Jesus in our lives bringing all things to our remembrance. No other prophet could ever say: I am the way or say "Before Abraham was I am."

    There is something special about Jesus that you are missing. He was born of a virgin for a reason that eludes you, and that Islam doesn't explain; in fact, the virgin birth of Jesus is a borrowed concept from Christianity. This concept comes from no other religion in the world. Moreover, the concept of heaven and hell is borrowed from Christianity as well. Monotheism is borrowed from the Jews and the Christians!

    Jesus is not a messenger; he is the message according to the Scripture. Of course He was limited as a man. Jesus not knowing the day and hour of the end doesn't take away from His divine attributes, but it emphasizes His humanity. He was less than God in position but equal in nature. He is all that God is but not all there is to God. This is a spiritual discerned truth that cannot be understood with the carnal mind! To understand it one must be born again as Jesus said. If one is born once, he dies twice; If one is born twice, he dies once!
    Last edited by Burninglight; 18th June 2013 at 05:34.

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    you are playing games with words. for example

    He was less than God in position but equal in nature. He is all that God is but not all there is to God.
    if the father were to have a boxing match with the son, then because of the sons rank/position , he would always allow the father to floor him because of his rank/position?

    if the trinity members had a race, coequality would mean each member would reach the finnishing line at the same time , but because of jesus' rank/position , he would come second in the race and the father would come 1st. this cannot be co equal.

    when jesus said that the father is greater than him, then who would try to say that nature is the same but position isn't? why isn't position/rank derived from the being/nature of the father? how can you interpret jesus to mean , " my father is greater than i, but not stronger than me" ? this would be complete and utter nonsense, because the word " greater" in jesus' sentence has the idea that the fathers being/nature is great.


    e was born of a virgin for a reason that eludes you,
    jesus along with 2 persons in trinity had to form himself in a womans womb. after he was born, he had to drink milk for growth. isn't it more amazing for moses to give a DEAD stick life by turning it into a snake? a dead stick was given life and then turned back into a stick.

    if we find in a pagan narration that one pagan god appeared fully formed without mother and father would that not be greater than virgin birth?

    I am the way or say "Before Abraham was I am."
    notice here that abraham was singled out? what was special about abraham and why did the jews pick up stones to stone jesus and why did god in flesh run away and hid himself? i thinkin jewish view abraham had rank/status and abraham was their " i am" " the way" . angels, satan and god was before abraham, but why was abraham singled out? because john's jesus was trying to show that he was better than abraham. jews obviosly thought abraham was greater that is why they attempt to stone jesus.
    Last edited by theman09; 19th June 2013 at 15:53.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    The Bible states that God is Spirit and that Jesus is the word of God and that God is Holy. Therefore, God is the Holy Spirit. God made man in His image and likeness. I am a soul. I have a body and I have a spirit. Am I three people? God can make His word flesh and the father God can send His Spirit to inhabit people. We are not taught how God is able to make His Spirit and Word distinct persons, but who am I to put limits on what God can or cannot do? IMO, you do so presumptuously.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 21st June 2013 at 02:17.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Jesus is the last Adam. Sin was introduced in the world by Adam and righteousness by the last Adam. Jesus is the word of God/Allah; therefore, He is the word God used to speak all things into existence as is written: "In Him we live and move and have our being... All things were made by Him, for Him and through Him and without Him was not anything made that was made...All things are held together by the word of His power"



    IOW, Jesus is the word "Be" that God/Allah used to speak things and people into existence!



    It is important to believe that God's word is eternal and uncreated!!!



    That is why it is important to believe that Jesus is the only way to God as He states. He said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe 'I am' He" Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I am" I am is a form of "Be" God said, "Be and it was and is"



    So, that is the way it was and is like it or not.

    No other prophet could say "Before Abraham was I am."

    Pray about it, friend.

  12. #27
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    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Quote Originally Posted by ibnleroy View Post
    Can you recall when I explained the Hebrew words "echad" and "yachid"? I agreed with the Jewish idea that calling Allah "unique" is more appropriate than calling Him "one" b/c of the issue of singularity being relative to creation. This is simply a matter of human limitation. How else would you define something which existed in and of itself and isn't like anything our minds can conceive? Saying Allah is "One" is the only option we have.

    Christian doctrine is not beyond my understanding. I should remind you that you're talking to a former Christian.

    Again, you're being illogical! Believing in the Bible b/c the Bible tells you to believe in it is circular reasoning.

    Peace

    As Salaamu Alaykum

    How well do your know the Bible ?

  13. #28
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    Question Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Jesus is the last Adam. Sin was introduced in the world by Adam and righteousness by the last Adam. Jesus is the word of God/Allah; therefore, He is the word God used to speak all things into existence as is written: "In Him we live and move and have our being... All things were made by Him, for Him and through Him and without Him was not anything made that was made...All things are held together by the word of His power"



    IOW, Jesus is the word "Be" that God/Allah used to speak things and people into existence!



    It is important to believe that God's word is eternal and uncreated!!!



    That is why it is important to believe that Jesus is the only way to God as He states. He said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe 'I am' He" Jesus said, "Before Abraham was I am" I am is a form of "Be" God said, "Be and it was and is"



    So, that is the way it was and is like it or not.

    No other prophet could say "Before Abraham was I am."

    Pray about it, friend.
    Can your explain these verse to us !

    John 14 ; 2 , And I Quote ; ''In my Father's house are many ( Mansions ) ; .... Meaning , Jesus said in ( My Father's House ) , He didn't say ( In My House ) , Wouldn't it have made sense to say ( In My House If He Was God ) ?

    Mark 15 ; 34 , And I Quote ; '' Jesus cried out with a loud voice My God , My God why have thou forsaken me ? Meaning if Jesus was God who could he be praying to if he is The Only God , And to cry is a human weakness .

    John 5 ; 30 , And I Quote ; '' I Can Of Mine Own Self Do Nothing .


    John 14 ; 10 , Yashu'a ( Gives All Praise And Gratitude To ( His Heavenly Father ) And I Quote ; Believest thou not that I am in the Father , And the Father in me ? The words that I speak unto you I speak Not Of Mtself ; But the Father that dwelleth inme , He Doeth The Work . < He Used The Word ( He Not Me ) .

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    IOW, Jesus is the word "Be" that God/Allah used to speak things and people into existence!
    Sahih International: Originator of the heavens and the earth. When He decrees a matter, He only says to it, "Be," and it is.


    so you believe that jesus is a verb ? jesus is a verb from god?



    003.059
    YUSUFALI: The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him: "Be". And he was.



    adam like jesus is the verb "be" ?


    the blasphemy called christianity and its blasphemous believers believe that god formed from within himself weakness . he formed a bad copy of himself and called it god in flesh. god made god through his action verbs. god formed through his word himself ,a copy which was bad/ flawed/ weak/version 0.1. and if the christian god can form weakness within himself , then why not make him bleed like women do every month?
    Last edited by theman09; 25th June 2013 at 12:23.

  15. #30
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    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Show me where I said Jesus was or is God (the father).

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