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Thread: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

  1. #136
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    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Quote Originally Posted by ibnleroy View Post
    hello

    The idea of God existing as three distinct persons was popular amongst the ancient Egyptians (the "trinity" of Osiris, Isis, and their son Horus was believed to have existed as one entity in spite of them being a family; this makes no sense, just like Christian doctrine).

    While under Roman/ Hellenistic rule, there was an entire movement within the Jewish community which aimed at assimilating with Greco-Roman people. This faction educated their children at Greek schools, could speak and write Greek fluently, were closely familiar with Greco-Roman tradition, were influenced by Hellenistic literature, and pretty much abandoned their Jewish roots to be accepted by the main stream. It was these sell-outs, along with Gentile sympathizers, who created "Christianity." So, yes, they were thoroughly familiar with Euripides, and every other patriarch of the Hellenistic literary-philosophical-religious tradition. They are the ones who took Isa (alayhi salam) and his teachings, and made him palatable to Gentile tastes. I could write a book on this, but for the sake of time, I'll save more detailed information for a later forum, inshallah. You might not be ready for that one though! (LOL)

    Tacitus based his writings about Isa (alayhi salam) on hearsay, not actual records (which the Romans kept meticulously). In fact, his writings weren't even about Isa (alayhi salam), but rather the Christians. He was just stating what was known about THEM. Big difference.

    What do you mean when you say "uniqueness"? I never said Islam was "unique." The essence of Islam is the unadulterated worship of the Creator of the universe. It is a concept that has existed since man's beginning: "La illaha illallah", "There is none worthy of worship except God."

    Peace
    Christians are not asking people to believe in the trinity or in the deity of Jesus Christ. Where did the disciples of Jesus teach or insist on anyone to believe such a thing? I am not saying I don't believe it, but I am not insisting you must.
    You must find who Jesus is for yourself. The word trinity is not in the Bible and nowhere does the Bible exhort us to preach the trinity or to teach that Jesus is God. Once you know who Jesus is, you'll know what to do and what to believe.

    The NT Bible message has been simple. For all have sinned and come short of God's glory. The wages of sin is death, but God's gift is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. He is the only way to God. Jesus said, “No one comes to God except through me. You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He.”

    Muslims would be foolish to ignore it. They would have to ignore it at their own spiritual peril. Ignoring this message is a spiritual disorder to say the least!!!

    Muslims shouldn't tell us people of the Book what to believe about Jesus, because we must all learn who He is for ourselves. That is why Jesus never made a declaration on who He was, but when people realized who He was they worshipped Him and Jesus didn't stop them. So come to your own conclusions
    Last edited by Burninglight; 24th September 2014 at 03:10.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  2. #137
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    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Quote Originally Posted by ibnleroy View Post
    Hello

    Of course I don't know what Allah was like before creation. However, I do know that definitions which are relative to created things are not applicable to Him. He is not "like" anything in the universe, b/c He transcends it. I'll repeat what I stated previously: Allah did not define plurality; rather, He defined the dimensions by which we conceive of plurality. The ideas of plurality, numbers, numerals, math, etc., are all relative to creation. I don't know how else to break it down to you.

    No, I don't consider Allah to be limited. All I'm saying is that human qualities (which consist largely of limitations) cannot be attributed to Him, b/c if they were, He would not be Allah, He'd be a human. This isn't rocket science. Is there ever an instance where a dog is a cat? Where black is white? Where tall is short? No.

    I'm very disappointed that you would say such an immature thing about Isa (alayhi salam). He doesn't exist b/c our views on him differ? Grow up.

    Paul was not orthodox. On the contrary, he was Hellenized through and through, a product of his environment (i.e., Tarsus). Yes, to declare a man a god is blasphemy. I don't believe that Paul aimed to mislead people, but I am 110% confident that he compromised his Jewish heritage and was heavily influenced by Greco-Roman paganism.
    Believer is a believer. He is a Christian for sure, and I am as well. As for the trinity, that term is not in the Bible, but the term tawheed is not in the Quran; does that mean the concept is not there? We are not told to understand or teach on the trinity so although I accept it, I don't find the need to justify God's tri unity to anyone. But I'll tell you that the concept of the trinity follows Islam's description of God more than you realize; for instance, the concept in question is other worldly it is not like anything that we can identify with on earth except in feeble ways such as man created in the image and likeness of God we have a soul, body and spirit, or God's creation seems to always have three elements like an atom consisting of proton, neutron and electron or the family husband, wife and children or a tree, leaves, trunk and roots.

    Muslims will say 1+1+1=1 makes no sense which is true, but math equations deal with time, space and number sequence which are God's creation; so when you use God's creation (the finite) to understand the infinite, you should see it as being a flawed system to justify claims against God's oneness. God is outside of His creation which involves the dimensions of time and space. What I am saying is Muslims have no excuse to reject God's tri unity as understood in the Bible especially when the god of Islam didn't understand who the trinity was to Christians today and in the seventh century. This can easily be proved by what Allah implies in the Quran and the way he questions the fictional character of Isa in the Quran. As for Jesus, we do associate Him to the father God as his word; for example, as my word is associated to me and yours to you so is God's to Him. Jn. 1... This is not shirk or an idolatrous association, but I cannot say the same for the second part of the shahada, where you must associate the name of Muhammad with Allah (not as deity but) as Allah's slave messenger and as an oracle of your faith or you cannot be Muslim. This , IMHO, is shirk and an idolatrous association that Muslims should repent of. IOW, the shirk is on Muslims and not Christians.

    Peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 23rd September 2014 at 15:13.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  3. #138
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    Default Re: Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it

    Quote Originally Posted by Believer View Post
    Greetings,
    forgive me for the long response, but its necessary for some in depth explaining.


    There is also a trinity in Hinduism, similar to that Egyptian one. But these are triads, three gods in one form, or something like that. These faiths were polytheistic. Mine is monotheistic. You cannot say how God can or can't exist, who says He cannot exist as a Trinity? Can you really say? Do you fully understand and comprehend God? If you do then there is a serious problem.
    ...

    Paul wasn't necessarily one of these "progressive" Jews. Evidently any religious scribe or Pharisee at this time must be able to speak Latin, and Greek if your an easterner. This was the lingua franca of the empire. How do you think these people would communicate to the Romans? A scribe from Judea was likely to be fluent in Greek.

    Since it was necessary for the Gentile to recieve the Word. There was a big argument in the early church between Paul and Peter.
    Peter's church wanted their members to become fully Jewish before becoming Christian. This would NEVER go well with gentiles.

    Paul argued that for more people to recieve Jesus and be saved, which is more important, people did't have to go through circumcisions, dietary laws, etc. to follow Jesus
    Jesus came for ALL people.
    Today, the Gentile church is far larger than the Jewish church.

    Paul was originally an avid persecutor of Christians. But Jesus appeared to him and told him to stop persecuting his children.
    Paul, then Saul, was blind for three days until a holy man instructed by Jesus came to give back his sight. Paul changed from Saul. He became a totally polar-opposite person from what he originally was. But his zeal remained the same, if not greator.
    God called him for a reason, to have the new faith spread.

    Paul didn't fabricate Christianity. He and many of the apostles were martyrs, I don't think they would really die for some silly lies.
    The early Christian church suffered terribly. If it wasn't for the grace of our God, then we would of "died out" a along time ago,
    let alone becoming the number one faith in our world.
    Who could be responsible for this?

    I could keep going on, but I covered what was most important.
    ...


    "Tacitus based his writings about Isa (alayhi salam) on hearsay, not actual records (which the Romans kept meticulously). In fact, his writings weren't even about Isa (alayhi salam), but rather the Christians. He was just stating what was known about THEM. Big difference"

    How can you say this? How do you know that it was hearsay?
    You really don't know. You are just answering like this because you don't believe it.

    There was a Pontius Pilate in charge of Judea. He was around under Tiberius. A man named Christus was crucified.
    Was he our Christ? Likely he was.
    ...

    You said:
    "What do you mean when you say "uniqueness"? I never said Islam was "unique." The essence of Islam is the unadulterated worship of the Creator of the universe. It is a concept that has existed since man's beginning: "La illaha illallah", "There is none worthy of worship except God.""

    I would generally think that the Almighty God's final revelation for mankind would be more distinguished from cults, heresies, and other religions. I say that Almighty's great plan is definitely more distinguished and unique than other faiths.

    Some people could of far more easily put your faith together if it is not unique. Other religious ideas could of just been "copied and pasted" into your faith.

    As for the latter part of your quote, how sure are you that your not worshipping any creator or god?
    I follow this concept you stated, as well as the Jews, and the Zoroastrians, and the Saboteans, and perhaps some others.

    Peace,
    It is true that only God is worthy of worship but the tri unity of God doesn't upset that. God is one
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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