25th August 2003, 06:34
Allah has sent down the Quran ,He will preserve it
Allah has sent down the Quran and He will preserve it
Asalamu alaikum :
here is an open challenge to all.
Let us throw all available copies of all the Holy books we have today in the ocean or burn them all (including, Bible, Torah, Quran, Gita, Vedas, every holy book available, in all its forms, printed, electronic etc.). Then let us call people from each religion to reproduce their Holy Books if they can . I am sure none will be able to reproduce even part of their
books and I just wonder how many different fractions/versions they will produce.
But Muslims from more than 20 countries and from countless
nationalities, cultures will produce the same Quran, chapter by
chapter, verse by verse, letter by letter and you will not find one single discrepancy!!!! Thus is the Quran protected. As Allah Says in the Holy Quran
"Indeed it is We who have sent down the reminder (the Qur'an), and indeed it is Us who shall preserve it" (Surah Al-Hijr 15:9).
Thus the Quran remains pure even after 14 centuries and will remain so forever, for it resides in the hearts and minds of millions of Muslims. In this is a clear sign for people with intelligence, for people who reflect. Till date, I do not know any person from other religion who has memorized his holy book !!! The scientific facts presented in The Quran attests its divinity and rules out any doubt that the Quran is man-made because it cannot just be the creation of any human, it just cannot be, impossible.
Of all the acclaimed masterpieces that the world has seen, nothing can be compared to the book known as the Qur'an. Millions have become Muslims upon simply hearing a verse from this amazing book, yet still the majority knows nothing of it. The Qur'an is the Final Revelation from the Creator to humanity. It was revealed in the year 610 CE to the Prophet Muhammed (saws), and completed over a period of 23 years.
These23 years of revelation resulted in a book which comprised of 114 chapters and 6,666 verses. All of this was to become the primary source of law for the whole of mankind to live and die by.
The impact of this book is such that Allah says :
"Had We revealed this Qur'an upon a mountain, surely you would have seen it humble itself and crumble out of the fear of Allah. Such are the parables We put forward to mankind so that they may reflect" (Surah Al-Hashr 59:21)
thus ,Allah has promised that he will protect our Quran , and he fulfilled his commitment.
25th August 2003, 08:50
Just because all of the Qurans say the EXACT same thing doesn't make it true to begin with.
And I must contest! The Quran could easily of been written by men.
I see no Great Message in the Quran that wasn't borrowed from another relogion or cult.
Islam isn't as unique as you would like to think, my friend
You believe that Muhammed is the Great Prophet who has recieved the Final Revelation direcly from Allah through the angel Gabriel. His message is to live by the Quran and to follow Allah's will.
Muslims pray five times a day.
The Zoroastrians believe that Zoroaster is the Great Prophet who has recieved the Great Revelation through the angel Good Thought.
His message is to live by the Avesta and to follow Mazda's will.
Zoroastrians pray five times a day.
How similar! How curious!
John Smith claimed to be a "prophet" with a "divine revelation"
and that his book, the book of Mormon, was the only truth.
He also believed that the Bible was corrupted over time, and that he had the real "Truth",
-kind of scary, isn't it.
Men could NOT have made up what was written in the Bible.
The idea of God existing as THREE seperate yet distict persons,
the idea of God coming down to earth as a humble servant and to die for our sins, and be Ressurected. It is totally impossible for someone to of made of up all of this fantastic stuff!
There are many more Christians than Muslims in this world.
Many more people have heard the beautiful inspired words of the Bible and the wonderful message of Jesus and have come to believe.
So, of all the acclaimed masterpieces that the world has seen, nothing can be compared to the book known as the Bible. Millions have become Christians upon simply hearing the message from this amazing book.
Peace to you,
26th August 2003, 01:56
Assalamu alaykum all
Believer, you stated:
"Men could NOT have made up what was written in the Bible.
The idea of God existing as THREE separate distinct persons,
the idea of God coming down to earth as a humble servant and to die for our sins, and be Resurrected. It is totally impossible for someone to of made up all of this fantastic stuff!"
On the contrary Believer, the idea of God incarnating Himself and/or having a divine son was a major element in traditional Greco-Roman religion. The concept of the "divine man" coming to earth to die for the sins of the people is termed "pharmakos" in Greek. This theme pre-dates Christianity by centuries. There is a Greek tragedy written by the playwright Euripides (484-406 BCE) entitled "The Bacchae." The title is taken from the name of the protagonist, Bacchus, an incarnated god who chooses to live amongst the common people in order to teach them the principles of love, peace, etc. Now, a tragedy isn't a tragedy without a tragic event, and in this ancient play, Bacchus, in spite of his pure innonence, is captured by his detractors and brought before King Pentheus. Pentheus sentences the incarnated Bacchus to execution. But that's not all. Bacchus is put to death by - you guessed it - crucifixion. The story doesn't end there. Three days later, Bacchus is brought back to life, reveals his true identity as a god, and informs his followers of why he came to dwell amongst them. His reason? The aformentioned concept of "pharmakos." Basically what we have here is a passion play written by a man who died 406 years before Isa (alayhi salam). When one considers the fact that Christianity was fostered in the Hellenistic world, and that doctrines like divine incarnation, pharmakos, resurrection, etc. were already present in Greco-Roman paganism (which is preserved in "The Bacchae" and many other ancient writings), the implications are obvious.
26th August 2003, 05:16
well... i think you'd be surprised at the consistency of the Buddhist tradition for perserving their teachings, you'd also have a hard time arguing with the Taoists and those of the Bon tradition. i suspect your argument would fall upon deaf ears of those in traditions that do not hold to the written word.
as for your assertion that people from 20 countries would exactly duplicate each others transcription of the Qur'an.. that's simply an assertion with no external data to back it up. as an assertion or theory, it's fine. as fact, it's lacking.
as for memorizing the Qur'an if you aren't Islamic.. why on earth would you do such a thing? if you aren't Islamic you probably don't have much interest in memorizing the Islamic Holy book, wouldn't you agree? by the same token, if you're not Norse Neo-Pagan, you probably don't have much interest in memorizing the Thor Saga.
believer, it's not impossible for men to have made up what is written in the Bible, however improbable it is does not make it impossible. in any event, it's only an issue when one insists on inerrancy of the text... and that, i'd submit, is the crux of the ongoing dialog on this thread.
26th August 2003, 05:24
That is an interesting argument.
First of all you have nothing on my quote:
"The idea of God existing as THREE separate distinct persons",
Also, Zeus had a large number of divine sons, he was quite a dirt bag. It was also a very common for men to be executed on trees and crosses. I doubt the Jewish followers of Jesus were familiar with that greek pagan play. I doubt that the Jewish chroniclers and compilers of the Gospels would have known about that infidel play. I doubt that most of the apostles and a large number of early Christians would of died heinously following some big phoney lie.
This small persecuted sect of early Christians is now the number one religius group. I doubt that Zeus and Dionysus were behind this!
There is historical evidence that Christ was crucified from Tacitus,
a very well know pagan Roman historian of the 1st century.
He would not of put any false stuff in his writings. He has this to say:
"....the fire of Rome. Hence to suppress the rumor, he(Nero) falsely charged with the guilt, and punished Christians, who were hated for their enormities. Christus, the founder of the name, was put to death by Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea in the reign of Tiberius: but the pernicious superstition, repressed....."
How's that for you!!
This is in direct opposite of what the Quran says about Christ's death!
Anyway, if someone can fabricate my beliefs, than someone can VERY definitely of fabricated your beliefs. Do you want to keep playing this game?
Besides, you can patch-up many beliefs together from Judaism, Christianity, Zoroastrianism, Saboteanism, and some of your imagination to create an Islam.
You answered by middle argument, how do you answer to my first argument about Islam's uniqueness? That is also a Very important argument. Answer me please.
Peace to you,
29th August 2003, 23:27
The idea of God existing as three distinct persons was popular amongst the ancient Egyptians (the "trinity" of Osiris, Isis, and their son Horus was believed to have existed as one entity in spite of them being a family; this makes no sense, just like Christian doctrine).
While under Roman/ Hellenistic rule, there was an entire movement within the Jewish community which aimed at assimilating with Greco-Roman people. This faction educated their children at Greek schools, could speak and write Greek fluently, were closely familiar with Greco-Roman tradition, were influenced by Hellenistic literature, and pretty much abandoned their Jewish roots to be accepted by the main stream. It was these sell-outs, along with Gentile sympathizers, who created "Christianity." So, yes, they were thoroughly familiar with Euripides, and every other patriarch of the Hellenistic literary-philosophical-religious tradition. They are the ones who took Isa (alayhi salam) and his teachings, and made him palatable to Gentile tastes. I could write a book on this, but for the sake of time, I'll save more detailed information for a later forum, inshallah. You might not be ready for that one though! (LOL)
Tacitus based his writings about Isa (alayhi salam) on hearsay, not actual records (which the Romans kept meticulously). In fact, his writings weren't even about Isa (alayhi salam), but rather the Christians. He was just stating what was known about THEM. Big difference.
What do you mean when you say "uniqueness"? I never said Islam was "unique." The essence of Islam is the unadulterated worship of the Creator of the universe. It is a concept that has existed since man's beginning: "La illaha illallah", "There is none worthy of worship except God."
30th August 2003, 08:06
forgive me for the long response, but its necessary for some in depth explaining.
There is also a trinity in Hinduism, similar to that Egyptian one. But these are triads, three gods in one form, or something like that. These faiths were polytheistic. Mine is monotheistic. You cannot say how God can or can't exist, who says He cannot exist as a Trinity? Can you really say? Do you fully understand and comprehend God? If you do then there is a serious problem.
Paul wasn't necessarily one of these "progressive" Jews. Evidently any religious scribe or Pharisee at this time must be able to speak Latin, and Greek if your an easterner. This was the lingua franca of the empire. How do you think these people would communicate to the Romans? A scribe from Judea was likely to be fluent in Greek.
Since it was necessary for the Gentile to recieve the Word. There was a big argument in the early church between Paul and Peter.
Peter's church wanted their members to become fully Jewish before becoming Christian. This would NEVER go well with gentiles.
Paul argued that for more people to recieve Jesus and be saved, which is more important, people did't have to go through circumcisions, dietary laws, etc. to follow Jesus
Jesus came for ALL people.
Today, the Gentile church is far larger than the Jewish church.
Paul was originally an avid persecutor of Christians. But Jesus appeared to him and told him to stop persecuting his children.
Paul, then Saul, was blind for three days until a holy man instructed by Jesus came to give back his sight. Paul changed from Saul. He became a totally polar-opposite person from what he originally was. But his zeal remained the same, if not greator.
God called him for a reason, to have the new faith spread.
Paul didn't fabricate Christianity. He and many of the apostles were martyrs, I don't think they would really die for some silly lies.
The early Christian church suffered terribly. If it wasn't for the grace of our God, then we would of "died out" a along time ago,
let alone becoming the number one faith in our world.
Who could be responsible for this?
I could keep going on, but I covered what was most important.
"Tacitus based his writings about Isa (alayhi salam) on hearsay, not actual records (which the Romans kept meticulously). In fact, his writings weren't even about Isa (alayhi salam), but rather the Christians. He was just stating what was known about THEM. Big difference"
How can you say this? How do you know that it was hearsay?
You really don't know. You are just answering like this because you don't believe it.
There was a Pontius Pilate in charge of Judea. He was around under Tiberius. A man named Christus was crucified.
Was he our Christ? Likely he was.
"What do you mean when you say "uniqueness"? I never said Islam was "unique." The essence of Islam is the unadulterated worship of the Creator of the universe. It is a concept that has existed since man's beginning: "La illaha illallah", "There is none worthy of worship except God.""
I would generally think that the Almighty God's final revelation for mankind would be more distinguished from cults, heresies, and other religions. I say that Almighty's great plan is definitely more distinguished and unique than other faiths.
Some people could of far more easily put your faith together if it is not unique. Other religious ideas could of just been "copied and pasted" into your faith.
As for the latter part of your quote, how sure are you that your not worshipping any creator or god?
I follow this concept you stated, as well as the Jews, and the Zoroastrians, and the Saboteans, and perhaps some others.
31st August 2003, 05:29
Yes, I can say that Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) does not exist as a "trinity." The command to believe in Allah's ABSOLUTE Oneness is Biblical, as it is stated in the Shema (Deut. 6: 4). The concept expressed in the Shema refutes any plurality of gods and affirms that He is the only true reality. Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) is infinite and transcends time, space and matter. His essence is indivisible. Something which transcends time and space cannot be described as consisting of three distinct aspects. Anytime distinction is attributed to Allah's essence, His absolute Oneness is negated.
Christians are wrong when they say that the use of the word "echad" (one), instead of "yachid" (unique), in Deut. 6: 4, implies that Allah is a "composite unity" rather than an "absolute unity." They say that the Trinity is a composite unity just like a material object that possesses different individual aspects (e.g., water can be liquid, ice, or vapor). This logic is incorrect b/c physical things that exist within time and space cannot be used to describe Allah, who transcends those dimensions. Prior to the creation of the universe, Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) existed alone, and the concepts of time, space and THE PLURALITY OF NUMBERS DID NOT EXIST. The term "yachid" accurately describes His existence before the universe b/c it communicates the lack of any plurality, or ANYTHING RELATIVE TO CREATION.
The reason why Deut. 6: 4 uses the word "echad" instead of "yachid" is b/c we live in a physical world and perceive finite things, limited to time and space, all of which have a relationship w/ one another. The perception of plurality and the existence of numbers (WHICH IS A DIRECT RESULT OF THE PROCESS OF CREATION), can inadvertantly cause us to think of Allah as not being the only true reality. The Shema seeks to establish that Allah is Reality in spite of the seeming contradiction brought about by the material universe. To do this, a cardinal number (like "one") is needed b/c it specifies the correct PERCEPTION. It would be inappropriate to describe Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) w/ our understanding of Him working in our universe with the word "yachid." By using "echad" instead of "yachid," the Shema affirms the absolute oneness of Allah and refutes any other perceived possibilities.
Also, in logic, there is a principle called the law of definition. For example: all fat cats are fat. By definition, if a cat is not fat, there is absolutely no means of considering it a fat cat. Or: a pizza can never be a non-pizza. If you take off the toppings, all you have is crust; if you take away the crust, all you have is toppings; etc., etc. By definition, a pizza must be a dish consisting of flattened bread dough covered with various toppings.
By definition, Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) is immaterial; infinite; transcends time, space and matter; is self-sustaining; ESSENTIALLY inconceivable (b/c whatever the human can conjure in his or her mind is relative to creation); etc. If you take away any of the aforementioned qualities, then by definition, divinity is negated. Human beings are material; finite; are subject to time, space, and other matter; in need of sustenance; conceivable; etc. By definition, a man absolutely could not be Allah.
Paul, along with other well-educated and thoroughly Hellenized Jewish sell-outs, betrayed pristine Judaism, and synthesized it with Greco-Roman paganism. They turned Isa (alayhi salam) into this dying-resurrecting-god-man-savior character, in the same vein as Mithras Dionysus, Attis, Osiris, etc. Desperation to assimilate can drive people to believe and do some outrageous things, TRUST ME (I know about this phenomenon all too well b/c I've seen the same effort to identify w/ the dominant group brainwash some of my own people, i.e. African Americans). For those who are knowledgeable and objective, this is indisputable. And again, by no means does marytrdom verify a religion.
"How do you know this? How do you know it was just hearsay? You really don't know. You are just answering like this because you don't believe it."
Right . . . LOLLOLLOLLOLLOL
This post is getting kind of long, so I'll answer your other points and conclude at another time, inshallah.
31st August 2003, 10:41
First of all I REALLY thank the moderators of this site for alowing me to be here. They can "boot" me off at any time.
These people truly value interfaith dialogue!
Now, let me help explain this all to you.
" They say that the Trinity is a composite unity just like a material object that possesses different individual aspects "
I never believed this! There is no "composite" Trinity in my faith.
I don't believe in any "plurality of gods" either.
You cannot compare the Trinity to anything on this earth.
Your comparison to physical reality--ice--is illogical.
Ice can only exist as one of three forms at one time.
God is one God that coexists in three forms at all times.
I question the validity of your argument also because in the Bible God often refers to Himself as "us" or "our"
When the Prophets, peace on them, had visions of God they claimed to have seen a man seated upon a throne. They claimed to of seen the Almighty God. How can someone see the Almighty God!?!?!
The Father has no image for us to see.
But Jesus is in our image. We can see Him. He is the image of God.
He is the one seated upon the throne that the Prophets have seen.
Who else could it be?
"Human beings are material; finite; are subject to time, space, and other matter; in need of sustenance; conceivable; etc. By definition, a man absolutely could not be Allah."
A simple man cannot suddenly become a god, your're right.
But we are created in the image of God.
Cannot God come down in our image?
Can you really define what God can or can't do?
"Prior to the creation of the universe, Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) existed alone, and the concepts of time, space and THE PLURALITY OF NUMBERS DID NOT EXIST"
Who defined the plurality of numbers? God did.
God created physics, time, reality as we percieve.
God has no limits. Are you putting limits on God because of some off-shooted theosophy of yours?
"Desperation to assimilate can drive people to believe and do some outrageous things, TRUST ME (I know about this phenomenon all too well b/c I've seen the same effort to identify w/ the dominant group brainwash some of my own people, i.e. African Americans)."
What you have stated about Paul is your opinion. You are just conjecturing. There is no Jesus Christ that is compatible with Islam, so you had to invent this "Isa" figure. There are no other scriptures about a Jesus who was just simply a man.
Also, those pagan "Osiris,etc." cults have died out a long time ago, and they weren't even persecuted.
The early Christian sect suffered terribly.
Constantine became am advocate of Christianity because he saw a vision sent by God. This sect became the faith of an empire that once sought to annhiliate them. Then it has become the #1 faith of the world. God must be behind this. There is no explanation otherwise. For those who are knowledgeable and objective, this is indisputable.
Besides, your beliefs are far likely to of been fabricated then mine.
Maybe Muhammed just wanted a monotheistic faith for his own people.
Desperation to assimilate can drive people to believe and do some outrageous things you know.
It seems to me you have severe racial-identity problems. What reasons do you have for thinking African-Americans are being brainwashed? Many of the early African-Americans became Christian out of their own free will.
2nd September 2003, 07:04
My comparison of the "Trinity" w/ water was just to illustrate the logic of one substance taking three different forms. I think you looked too far into it, but sorry for any confusion.
My point was to show you that the concepts of plurality and numbers are a result of creation. How can you conceive of plurality before anything ever existed? It's impossible. Since Allah transcends the universe, the concept of Him existing as multiple "persons" is relative to our idea of plurality/numbers (which, of course, is a part of creation). Because of its relative (i.e., to creation) and divisive nature, the "Trinity" doctrine is considered shirk - the ultimate sin in Islam.
Also, speaking in the first-person plural was a literary formality used by nobility. This is found in the Qur'an as well, and in no way connotes multiple "persons."
Like I said before, if Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) were to "come down," then by definition, His divine qualities (i.e., the things that make Allah who He is) would be negated. Allah does not depend on anything. Allah has no needs. Allah cannot die (subhan 'ala!). If Allah were to cease being Allah for the blink of an eye, the universe would perish. Remember the example: ALL FAT CATS ARE FAT.
Allah did not define numbers. Rather, He decreed the dimensions by which we could conceive of, and thus define, "numbers."
"There is no Jesus Christ compatible with Islam, so you had to invent this 'Isa' figure."
I don't understand what you're saying. "Isa" is Arabic for Jesus (alayhi salam). We did not invent him. LOL
"Besides, your beliefs are far likely to of been fabricated than mine."
The unadulterated worship of the Creator, a fabricated belief? Whatever you say.
"Maybe Muhammad just wanted a monotheistic faith for his own people."
Wow. I bet you studied for decades to come to that conclusion. LOLLOLLOL
"Desperation to assimilate can drive people to believe and do some outrageous things you know."
Just who or what would Muhammad (sallah alayhi wa salam) have been assimilating with? The pagan tribes of Makkah? LOLLOLLOL
Severe racial identity problems? What? If you know more about my own people than I do, then please indulge me. LOL
The majority of my people are brainwashed b/c of centuries of psychological oppression and deliberate miseducation on the part of the American power structure. This isn't even a religious issue, so you definitely read my comments the wrong way. I was just comparing our experience of desperation to assimilate with European/ American people w/ that of the Jews with Greco-Roman people.
2nd September 2003, 08:16
"My point was to....sin in Islam"
We didn't concieve God, and you don't know what God existed like before creation. Since God defined plurality, not you, how can you really say what God was like?
As for the last part, Muhammed never understood the Trinity, so he assumed it was some dreadfully blasphemous doctrine.
"Like I said before, if Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) were to "come down," then by definition, His divine qualities (i.e., the things that make Allah who He is) would be negated. Allah does not depend on anything. Allah has no needs. Allah cannot die (subhan 'ala!). If Allah were to cease being Allah for the blink of an eye, the universe would perish. Remember the example"
What, by your definition? You consider God limited? Here you are again defining what God can and cannot do. God didn't jump off His throne and become a person! The Father is like your "allah" figure and He sent the Son, Jesus, to earth. Jesus, being a man also, also could physically die. Him also being a man could do anything a man could do, and felt everything a man could feel. Now we can relate our problwm directly to God. He has felt first hand what we feel.
God never ceased to be God, He merely became man. His divine qualities weren't negated, He subjugated His infinite powers because He didn't need all of them. Jesus wasn't here to put on a magic show!
God has no needs, but we have needs. We need Him! He has come to us.
""There is no Jesus Christ compatible with Islam, so you had to invent this 'Isa' figure."
I don't understand what you're saying. "Isa" is Arabic for Jesus (alayhi salam). We did not invent him. LOL"
Look at pre-Quranic writings. You'll find nothing of Christ being simply a prophet. All writings of Christ connote Him as the Son of Man. I doubt everyone would lie about Christ if He was just a man.
The Gospels are just the more reliable writings on Christ and His life. There are some later apocryphal books, but there irrelevant.
You're version of Christ, I'll call him Isa for that sake, doesn't exist. He was fabricated.
""Besides, your beliefs are far likely to of been fabricated than mine."
The unadulterated worship of the Creator, a fabricated belief? Whatever you say."
Well, I guess a whole bunch of cults and religions are worshipping the Creator?!?! You're faith isn't unique enough to distinguish itself as the True Faith.
Yeah. I'm sorry I thought you were making some religious comparison. But I'm sorry if you think White America is oppressing and miseducating the African-Americans. I'd really rethink that!
I can assure you Paul wasn't making some Jewish-Greco-Roman fusion religion. An orthodox Jew like Saul was wouldn't dare declare some man a god and go to extremes just to mislead people. That is ultamite blaspheme! No Jews would ever want to assimilate themselves with pagans! They are a very proud people and you can see this today.
Saul had a vision, okay. He became Paul, a polar opposite of his former self. If it wasn't for Paul our faith would remain an obsure Jewish sect. We would only have a few hundred thousand adherants rather than a few billion adherents today. Paul had a purpose and he wasn't some two-bit lying sellout that you unfortunately like to think he is.
Blessings to you
2nd September 2003, 10:25
Of course I don't know what Allah was like before creation. However, I do know that definitions which are relative to created things are not applicable to Him. He is not "like" anything in the universe, b/c He transcends it. I'll repeat what I stated previously: Allah did not define plurality; rather, He defined the dimensions by which we conceive of plurality. The ideas of plurality, numbers, numerals, math, etc., are all relative to creation. I don't know how else to break it down to you.
No, I don't consider Allah to be limited. All I'm saying is that human qualities (which consist largely of limitations) cannot be attributed to Him, b/c if they were, He would not be Allah, He'd be a human. This isn't rocket science. Is there ever an instance where a dog is a cat? Where black is white? Where tall is short? No.
I'm very disappointed that you would say such an immature thing about Isa (alayhi salam). He doesn't exist b/c our views on him differ? Grow up.
Paul was not orthodox. On the contrary, he was Hellenized through and through, a product of his environment (i.e., Tarsus). Yes, to declare a man a god is blasphemy. I don't believe that Paul aimed to mislead people, but I am 110% confident that he compromised his Jewish heritage and was heavily influenced by Greco-Roman paganism.
2nd September 2003, 11:23
Well, let me make this as sensible as I can.
"I do know that definitions which are relative to created things are not applicable to Him"
The Trinity was not "created."
Where do you get this off-shooted philosophy of yours?
"All I'm saying is that human qualities (which consist largely of limitations) cannot be attributed to Him"
You fail to understand that God is capable of all things.
The Father cannot come down to earth, but the Son can.
Evidently for God to come to earth, He would have to keep His great powers from overwhelming us. But He is capable of holding Himself in, you know. Are you saying the Jesus cannot be God because that is impossible? Who say's that's impossible? Is it that off-shooted philosophy of yours?
Even the Quran states that Jesus was born of a virgin.
He was not "created" by two sex cells. He must of transcended into Mary's womb. He must of pre-existed before birth. There is no logical explanation besides it was intended for a very important purpose. How else could such a thing be explained?
I never said Jesus didn't exist!!!
I said you're concept of Jesus as just a prophet doesn't exist.
Nothing in history supports you.
The only Jesus that exists is the Son of Man.
Interpret that as you'd like.
I know that not everyone who knew Jesus would have made up stuff about Him. Suppose for a minute they WERE relling the truth about Him. Read the letter from Peter that verifies what I believe. Peter was an apostle to Christ. He wasn't like Paul who never knew Him. Peter would NOT make up anything about the Jesus. He denied Him three times and wept bitterly. I doubt he'd suddenly start writing fairy tale stories about Jesus for kicks!
I could just keep going on and on about Jesus being the Son of God.
But I'll say one more thing.
If Jesus didn't ressurect from the dead then their wouldn't be Christianity. The apostles scattered like sheep and they were very afraid to even leave the room they were staying in. But when Jesus appeared to them after the Ressurection, they were full of so much hope. When the fire of the Holy Spirit came upon them, they began to speak in tongues. They went "all out" for the Good News. And recent historical evidence suggests that by 100 A.D Christianity made it all the way to China!
Remember, you only personally believe that Paul was influenced that way, but you know nothing about him. Your judgment is based solely on conjecture.
2nd September 2003, 21:27
I'll try this one more time:
1) Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) transcends time, space, and matter
2) The concepts of plurality and numbers are relative to creation
3) Since the concepts of plurality and numbers are always relative to creation, it is impossible to apply them to Allah, who transcends creation
4) Thus, Allah could not be three "persons" b/c He was who He is before the concept of three ever existed
How could Allah exist as three "persons" if He existed before numbers were even a reality? You're using a numerical standard to define the existence of Allah (subhana wa ta'ala) even though His existence is independent of the human concept of plurality. This is shirk. Does anybody else not get what I'm saying, or is it just Believer? Please let me know.
Yes, Isa (alayhi salam) was created w/o any sexual activity. Your reasoning that this is proof of his divinity is flawed, however. Adam was created with neither father OR mother. Would you consider him divine because of this? I sure hope not.
FYI, Peter did not write the epistles attributed to him in the New Testament. The real author (or authors) is anonymous. This fact has been established by Biblical scholars for a looong time now. Again, you're only showing how little you know about the exegesis of the Bible.
"If Jesus didn't resurrect from the dead then there would be no Christianity."
Once again, Believer, you are making illogical and regressive statements. You have got to learn to stop doing that, inshallah. Don't you realize that all I have to do in order to respond to you is say:
"If Muhammad (sallah alayhi wa salam) wasn't a prophet, then there would be no Islam."
That type of reasoning is flawed and does not make a real argument. Please try to understand that; b/c as of now, your lack of understanding of the basic rules of logical arguing are really making it difficult for me to go on with you.
2nd September 2003, 22:12
"How could Allah exist as three "persons" if He existed before numbers were even a reality?"
Because God IS the REALITY!
We are only a small part of what He has created.
If plurality is relative to creation, then singularity is also relative to creation.
The first epistle of Peter was written by him , but the second wasn't.
This is what most main stream scholars believe.
Jesus's situation is totally different from Adam and Eve's
Jesus wasn't randomly born of a virgin just for kicks!
He had a purpose that is beyond your current understanding of Him.
I gave you a logical reason for what I said, Helper, I'm sorry if you fail to understand. I'm not thinking "regressively" but the Bible warns me of "progressive" messages other then the ones given in the Bible. These are the workings of false prophets. Maybe your "progressiveness" is negative.