Dear Jesus How to get to heaven (Jesus`s salvation

[Rima]

what do you think Jesus`s answer would be ,If we ask him :

dear Jesus how to get to Heaven ???

How to be saved , what is the only way according to Jesus himself:

some christianas believe that they don`t have to do anything to get to heaven and to be saved , because God had come here in his son`s body ??(I know sounds confusing )

so after God had come in his son`s body , he died (god or his son , I know it is confusing )
so he had died for our sins, and became the most famous " the dead God "(more confusing I know)

so actually all who believe in this LOGICAL slavation ,they will not be judge , they will be saved
interestnig theory ,has nothing to do with logic , but let see if it has any roots , where did this theory come from:
as an answer to this question Christians would say (without any delay):

QUOTE BY BELIEVER:
So if you follow Jesus and believe what he says and have faith in Him, you will be assured 100% of salvation.

as Believer put it , he is 100% sure , let see what Jesus`s real answer would be??

GOD`s PLAN FOR SALVATION

we should only ask the Bible , and let the Bible speak itself:
how to get to heaven and be saved:

1. keep the commandments :

there is a very interesiting story in the NT , where a man asked Jesus this simple question, how may we have eternal life in heaven:

Matthew 19:16-19

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?
now Jesus answered him:
17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.
18 He saith unto him, Which? Jesus said, Thou shalt do no murder, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness,
19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
20 The young man saith unto him, All these things have I kept from my youth up: what lack I yet?
21 Jesus said unto him, If thou wilt be perfect, go and sell that thou hast, and give to the poor, and thou shalt have treasure in heaven: and come and follow me.

so Jesus said to him , very simply , keep Gods commandments , and the man asked him which , Jesus explained the ten commandments

if the plan of salvation is to send Jesus to die for us ,then Jesus would answer this man : Don`t worry man , I will later die for you on cross , nothing to worry about

but Jesus did not say this , why , simply , because there is no such a plan , the only plan is to FOLLOW THE COMMANDMENTS

the question is , do you guys follow God`s commandments , the first one at least??

2.follow God`s law , said Jesus:

again a lawyer asked Jesus how to be saved :

Luke 10:25-28

25 And, behold, a certain lawyer stood up, and tempted him, saying, Master, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?
26 He said unto him, What is written in the law? how readest thou?
27 And he answering said, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy strength, and with all thy mind; and thy neighbour as thyself.
28 And he said unto him, Thou hast answered right: this do, and thou shalt live.

so answering this simple question Jesus said: follow the law

if the plan of salvation is to send Jesus to die for us ,then Jesus would answer this man : Don`t worry man , I will later die for you on cross , nothing to worry about
but Jesus did not say this , why , simply , because there is no such a plan , the only plan is to FOLLOW THE LAW

do you guys follow the law , oooppppsss sorry you are saved already you don`t need God`s stupid laws

3. righteousness :

Matthew 5:10

10 Blessed are they which are persecuted for righteousness' sake: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

again ,all who are unjustly presecuted (refugees, unjustly killed , unjustly persecuted etc) it does not matter if they are saved or not , they will make it to heaven and to be saved

again Jesus himself never said I will die for you guys ,he keep on reapeting all things you need to do to be in heaven saved , but never mentioned this LOGICAL plan

are you guys following me

4.God`s obedience :

Matthew 7:21

21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

in other words , not everyone who claim that he is saved will be saved , but only the one who obey God

Jesus never mentiond this plan , what is going on here , whom should we believe , you guys , churches , vatican , or Jesus himself , why didn`t he mentiond that he will die

for Jesus obedience is very important thing to be saved:

mark 3:35
35 For whosoever shall do the will of God, the same is my brother, and my sister, and mother.

do you guys do the will of God himself , do you obey his commandment (at least the first commandment)

5.believe in Jesus`s God, who sent Jesus :
John 5:24

24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
so believe in God who has sent Jesus to explain to us his message , is the way to eeverlasting life

again , not a single word about Jesus death on cross , it seems to me Jesus had no Idea about this plan
do you guys believe in God or you have made of him another 2 copies

so according to Jesus , follow the commandment , keep God`s law , believe in one God, Jesus`s God who has sent Jesus , and you will be saved , not a single word about death on cross for our sins

the question is :

if there is such a plan of salvation by leting Jesus die on cross , why didn`t Jesus mention it , , did he know about the plan , or it was kept secret from Jesus , maybe God didn`t want to scare him?
the question is: did Jesus know about the plan , (to die on cross for our salvation) ??

it seems to em he had no Idea




Edited by - Rima on 08/19/2003 12:41:29

[Rima]

let me add some other interesting facts:

1.is faith witout deeds enough to be saved??

Christians think that there is nothing we can do to save us , that is why Jesus die for us
but is faith enough to be saved:

James 2:26
26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.
no it is not , works , good deeds are required to be saved , faith without work is dead
this is very logic , how much you work trhat much you earn , make sense to me

follow me guys almost done , be patient please

2.did Jesus come to nullify the law:

Mattew 5:17-20

17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.
18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

[B]very clear testimony : Jesus said , he did not come to nullify the law , he clearly stated it to you guys , that the law will never be changed ,not even the smallest letter of it will be changed , and Jesus warned you guys that who ever nullify the law will never get to heaven even if he is saved</B

interesting we hear from Jesus about everything but not about the plan to die on cross



3.in heaven Jesus will not recognize the ones who have calimed to be saved

this is the most interesting testimony from Jesus
you believe that nobody could follow the law , nobody could follow the commandment so , you simply have nullified the law because saved people do not need some stupid commandment , nobody could follow anyway , but let see what Jesus has to say about that:

Matthew 7:22-23

22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus will not recognize any of you guys, sorry




Edited by - Rima on 08/19/2003 12:44:22

[Rima]

now lets take a look at that law you have already nullified:

1.how many saved people commit adultry:

God has commanded:

deuteronomy 22:22

22 If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

leviticus 20:10

10 And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

but saved people has decided that nobody could follow the law , we are saved anyway , my question is : how many saved people will be punished for commiting adultry , even if they are saved

2.what about divorce:

Matthew 19:9

9 And I say unto you, Whosoever shall put away his wife, except it be for fornication, and shall marry another, committeth adultery: and whoso marrieth her which is put away doth commit adultery.

Mark 10:11
11 And he saith unto them, Whosoever shall put away his wife, and marry another, committeth adultery against her.
12 And if a woman shall put away her husband, and be married to another, she committeth adultery

Luke 16:18

18 Whosoever putteth away his wife, and marrieth another, committeth adultery: and whosoever marrieth her that is put away from her husband committeth adultery.

almost 99% saved people are under these verses , one may say: who cares, we are saved anyway

on sunday , I numbered how many divorced men and women in my church , it is amazing almost 85% of present people are divorced, who cares , they are saved already.




Edited by - Rima on 08/19/2003 12:45:57

[Rima]

now lets see if Jesus has this plan (to die for us on cross) in his mind:

if there is such a plan for salvation , you all should agree with me that Jesus knew about it .

now if Jesus knew about this plan , he should be so happy (logicly) now lets see how happy was he:


Matthew 26:38-39

39 And he went a little farther, and fell on his face, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if it be possible, let this cup pass from me: nevertheless not as I will, but as thou wilt.
he wasn`t happy , he was sad , upset , afraid
he prayed to his (and my) God to save him form this painful death , he did not knw anything about this plan

also Matthew 20:22

mark 14:35

5 And he went forward a little, and fell on the ground, and prayed that, if it were possible, the hour might pass from him.

hrere we see Jesus (God the son) is praying , and asking for help , he did not want to die
John 12:27
27 Now is my soul troubled; and what shall I say? Father, save me from this hour: but for this cause came I unto this hour.
God save me , help me , He was not happy at all , he did not know at all , he was so surprise and so afraid to die

the question to you guys : what do you think has God answered Jesus prayer , has God saved Jesus from dieing on cross , did he die at all , God loved his only son so much , I think (the logical thinking) he has answered his prayer and he has saved him , dont you agree



Edited by - Rima on 08/19/2003 12:47:47

[Rima]

now lets see some more facts:
before he was captured , Jesus asked God and prayed to God not to die , now after they captured him and put him on cross he said:

ELI ELI LaMMA SAVAHTHANI:

Matthew 27:46

46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?
my god my God why have you forsaken me

now please think with me:

are these the words of sombody happy about the plan to die for us??
are these the words of sombody having any inttention to die for us??

if Jesus knew about this plan , and if Jesus had any intention to die he would say: ELI ELI I CAN NOT WAIT <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
but that did not happen , why , simply he had no intention to die at all



Edited by - Rima on 08/19/2003 12:50:14

[Rima]

now here we should question this method of salvation , I mean sombody to die for sombodys else , is this theory supported in the Bible : lets take a tour and let the Bible sppeak itself:

1.can anybody pay for my sins:

Ezekiel 18:20

20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

nobody can pay anybodys sin , even the father for his sons sins , neither sons for their fathers sins
the Bible said that our sins will not be paid by anyone , everyone is responsible for his own sins

2.is the sacrifice a good idea for our sins:

God has sent his son as a sacrifice for our sins but :

1 samuel 15:22

22 And Samuel said, Hath the LORD as great delight in burnt offerings and sacrifices, as in obeying the voice of the LORD? Behold, to obey is better than sacrifice, and to hearken than the fat of rams.

it seems to me that Jesus has died on cross in vain
interesting don`t you agree

3.the whole duty of man:

Ecclesiastes 12:13

13 Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man.
14 For God shall bring every work into judgment, with every secret thing, whether it be good, or whether it be evil.

yes my dear friends : to be saved , fear God , keep his commanments , he will judge our deeds , how much you work that much you erarn , smply logicly



Edited by - Rima on 08/19/2003 12:53:08

[Rima]

now what is the only way of atonement :

christians believe that they don`t have nothing to do , all they have to do is to believe (BLINDLY) , that Jesus has already paid for their sins , but what the bible has to say about that , lets the Bible speak itself:

1.charity:

Exodus 30:15-16

15 The rich shall not give more, and the poor shall not give less than half a shekel, when they give an offering unto the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.
16 And thou shalt take the atonement money of the children of Israel, and shalt appoint it for the service of the tabernacle of the congregation; that it may be a memorial unto the children of Israel before the LORD, to make an atonement for your souls.

this is the one way atonement for our souls

numbers 31:50

50 We have therefore brought an oblation for the LORD, what every man hath gotten, of jewels of gold, chains, and bracelets, rings, earrings, and tablets, to make an atonement for our souls before the LORD.

very clear , very simple and very logical
charity is one way of atonement

2.animal sacrifices:

Leviticus 4:2

2 Speak unto the children of Israel, saying, If a soul shall sin through ignorance against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and shall do against any of them:
3 If the priest that is anointed do sin according to the sin of the people; then let him bring for his sin, which he hath sinned, a young bullock without blemish unto the LORD for a sin offering.

Leviticus 5:15

15 If a soul commit a trespass, and sin through ignorance, in the holy things of the LORD; then he shall bring for his trespass unto the LORD a ram without blemish out of the flocks, with thy estimation by shekels of silver, after the shekel of the sanctuary, for a trespass offering.

very easy , very logical way for our atonement , to clean our sins is simple , but what if you are poor , have no money
don`t worry God has mercy , God will never ask us beyond our abilities :
if you are poor then:

Leviticus 5:7

7 And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering.

no money for a lamb , don`t worry , bring a pigeons

but what if you don`t have money even for a pigeons:

Liviticus: 5:11

11 But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering.

flour is good enough , God is the most mercyful

so it seems that Jesus has died on cross in vain





Edited by - Rima on 08/19/2003 12:55:23

[Rima]

finaly who is our true savior :


saiah 43:11

I, even I, am Yahweh; and besides me there is no savior.

Isaiah 45;22

I, Yahweh? and there is no God else besides me, a just God and a Savior; there is no one besides me



why did God insist on mentioning his name , JEHWEH?
very simply , he did not want you guys to mix him up with anybody
he wanted to make it clear that nobody , even his own two other parts (if they exist) could be saviors

it seems that Jesus has died in vain don`t you think





Edited by - Rima on 08/19/2003 12:55:49

[Believer]

"some christians believe that they don`t have to do anything to get to heaven and to be saved"
This is a complete lie. I stated that Jesus doesn't want us sitting around like bums.

We are to put our faith in Jesus, for salvation.
We aren't putting faith in Him if were sitting around like ducks.
Jesus want's us to do good works to build up our riches in heaven,
after we accept Him as our Lord and saviour.

P.S. Check out my new posting "Jesus, just a prophet?"
We'll finish our discussion there, how's that?
Peace to you.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste,

one of the things that responsible posters do is indicate which translation they are quoting from, which tends to make things much easier in disucssion.

the word of the posts seems to either be KJV or Youngs, but it's quite impossible to tell at this point.

without knowing which translation was used, it is not very easy to point out where scholars have determined which words were misinterepeted and so forth.

in most of the modern concordance Bibles, they will have various scholars explain the meaning of a passage from a few points of view.

this is not at all different from how the Qur'an is studied, from what i can gather, so i fail to see the significance.



~compassionately~

[Rima]

VAJRADARA said :
one of the things that responsible posters do is indicate which translation they are quoting from,

after a complete topic like this ,I don`t really expect a better answer<img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
dear varadara
actually I use this bible in my native language :

http://www.istocnik.com/cgi-local/bi...exstari1l.html

you choose the Bible you trust , read it , check it out , all are the same , very little differences , and you know it

blessings

[Searching]

Your topic may be complete in your thinking but very little of it is accurate. Anyone can read the Bible and make it say what they want it to.

The biggest problem I have with your post is that you claim that Jesus was ignorant to the task that he was sent here to complete. Let me assure you he was not. Why would God send His only son to earth knowing that he would have to die and Jesus not know, not to mention the fact that three of the Gospels record two separate accounts of Jesus predicting his death (Matthew 16:21-28 & 20:17-19; Mark 8:31-9:1 & 10:32-34; Luke 9:22-27 & 18:31-33). If he was ignorant to the fact that he was sent here to be a sacrifice for our sins, how could he have predicted his death?

To you the Christian's view of salvation may seem absurd and I agree with that. It is absurd. To think that someone would love man enough to give up heaven, live here on earth and be killed for sins he didn't commit is not logical in any sense of the word. That's what makes God's love so amazing. Its very absurdity is its most powerful defense, for only God could love us that much.

Jesus' death did not catch him off guard. That night when he prayed in the garden it was his human side that cried out, Lord, if there be any other way... But in that very same prayer we hear his divine nature shine through ...but not my will, but Yours. Jesus knew what had to be done. He knew that the Father's justice had to be satisfied by a pure, spotless sacrifice so he did what had to be done.

Don't cheapen the sacrifice Jesus made for you by saying he came blindly into this world. It wasn't a tragic surprise or God's plan B to a world spinning out of control. From the moment Adam bit into the apple both God and Jesus knew what had to happen.

There are many other of your interesting viewpoints that I would like to comment on but I don't have the time right now. Please don't think that I consider myself better than you or that my goal is to tear apart your theology. You stated your opinion and I would like to share mine with you and anyone else who cares to read it.

[Rima]

Why would God send His only son to earth knowing that he would have to die and Jesus not know,

his only son, which one of them , according to the bIBILE , your gOD has at least 20020 sons ,at least two of them are the first born , and 2 are the begotten ones

what about his only daughter ???

[Rima]

just a reminder



Genesis 1221:222525
and god make a sweet little yellow thing , and God saw that it was good, he tasted it , it was sweet , he said, let be called BANANA

[beloved]

Let me ask you this, have you ever lied before? Have you ever stole something before? How do you know your going to heaven?