another comparison , to Help apple pie`s research

[Rima]

bismilahi rahmani rahim:

All praise is due to Allah, who has guided us to the religion of truth, and made us Muslims.

this topic is another answer to Mr. apple pie (my favorite banana) to his non sense of thread titled:

The Book of Revelation. The Archetype for the Koran.

while Banana`s topic is so complicated , it needs alot of readings ,checking his claims his translations , but why should we go too far, here are some very simple facts ,to help mr. Banana in his research.
I would be so glad to help Banana in his comparison , mr. Banana please count with me (just watch)

are you ready ,Banana?? , let the fun begin :

1.the name of religion:

Muhamed told his followers that the name of God`s true religion is Islam (total submission to God alone)
Jesus has never mentioned the word Christianity , the word christianity apeared many many years (250) after Jesus
in fact Jesus was a Jew who was sent to the Jews only , he followed all Jewish rituals and he kept God`s comandments
Banana : have you ever met a single christian who follows Jesus (keeping commandment , at least the first one)

in the Holy Quran , we find a clear statement that ,Islam is the only true religion , of all prophets (including Jesus himself)
in the Bible you won`t see a single word about christianity ,being a religion

are you following me Banana , just watch

2.the holy scripture:

Muhamed brought to all muslims , the holy book of Quran , in the Quran itself you would see too many statements telling us that the name of this book is the Quran
in the other hand , today we don`t have any Gospels by Jesus himself , it seems that the Gospel of Jesus has been lost
Jesus had no Idea about Matthew`s, marc`s , John`s or even luke`s Gospels
Jesus , had no clue about Paul`s letters (especialy the one where Paul asked to bring his jacket) <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jesus had no Idea that there will be 4 (and maybe more) different Gospels
Jesus had no Idea about that Lamb with 8 heads and 125 legs in the book of revelation (of John) (very impressing don`t you agree)
in fact too many books were written too many years after Jesus , and they are parts of the so called holy bible ,which Jesus had no knowledge about
Jesus in fact had no Idea that there will be an old and a new testament

3.Quran vs. Bible:

Muhamed read the Quran to us , he preached the Quran to muslims and he asked us (muslims) to read the Quran
Jesus in the other hand , had never read , heard of or even seen the Gospel of Marc
Jesus had never heard of the Gospel of John
Jesus had never read Pauls letters ,and he had never read about Paul`s Jacket <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>
Jesus followed the law , and he had never dreamt that sombody named Paul would later abolish the law

4.religious buildings for worship:

Muhamed had built the first mosque in meddina , he taught us to build the mosque ,a place where people gather to worship God and god alone
but yet Jesus has never built a church , he had never heard of the word Church , he actually taught the Jews in sinagogues
the first church was built too many years after Jesus , in fact the word church is unknown to Jesus


5.how to pray:

Muhamed taught his muslims , how to pray , he prayed and taught us the salat , and all muslims all over the world , since then we prayed in one and only one way

Jesus had prayed to his God (by bowing and kneeling) but yet not a single Christian prays the same way that Jesus prayed
in fact if you go to 125 different churches , you would see 125 different ways of prayers

6.the religious symbols:

Muhamed estabilshed the Crescent Moon and star as the symbol of Islam
Jesus had never seen the cross , he had never mentioned , it or even heard of it

I hope you enjoy my comparison dear Banana , just watch
P.S. I have made a promise to Banana that every day he will get a new topic , just watch me Banana
hey say hello to Khalid exmuslimson , and to Ali Mama too please

Edited by - Rima on 08/17/2003 20:39:37

[Rima]

has anybody seen Banana ??




Edited by - Rima on 08/18/2003 00:21:54

[Someone]

asalam alaikum
sister rima you wrote that"Prophet Muhamed peace be upon him estabilshed the Crescent Moon and star as the symbol of Islam"

From what i've read islam has no such symbols. yes we do have cresent moon erected on mosques but that's a turkish tradition which was later on adopted by others as well. please correct me if im wrong.

ALLAH ALMIGHTY knows best

[Rima]

asalam alaikum
sister rima you wrote that"Prophet Muhamed peace be upon him estabilshed the Crescent Moon and star as the symbol of Islam"

From what i've read islam has no such symbols. yes we do have cresent moon erected on mosques but that's a turkish tradition which was later on adopted by others as well. please correct me if im wrong.

ALLAH ALMIGHTY knows best

bismilahi rahmani rahim::
dear someone, don`t please tell me that the name Islam was estabilshed by Ottomans too [:]
did you like my comparison

the islamic symbol was estabilshed by the first muslims (I think) , turkish Ottomans , adopt the same symbol with the green color from the Abazites (I am not sure)

you maybe right, but also Banana wrote that the Quran is a copy of the revelation , have you corrected him <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

if you see BANANA pie please tell him : I am waiting ..

[Someone]

asalam alaikum
i have correctd him once but the fact is that i do not read his posts with much interest. i just take a quick glance at them. as for the crescent or the star or the green color being related to islam so far i haven't read anything of that sort. it might give an impression to non muslims that we worship those symbols or they are sacrd to us, which in fact they are not.



Edited by - Someone on 08/18/2003 11:45:55

[Rima]

i do not read his posts

I promise you won`t see him ever anymore <img src=icon_smile_big.gif border=0 align=middle>

selam alaikum

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

in the intrest of interfaith dialog, perhaps a bit of correction is in order...

needless to say, Jesus (pbuh) would never have used the word Christianity as that is a rendering from the Greek word Christos which means Annointed One and was applied to Him after His death. It is not the same issue as Mohammad (pbuh) who was alive as the religion of Islam started to become more wide spread.

Jesus (pbuh) had no interest in writing down what He was teaching. Teachings are living things, able to change and grow with the people that hear them. Written teachings are static and not able to be changed. also, people have this terrible habit of misunderstanding the teachings and getting caught in the words, which causes them to miss the message. remember, Jesus's (pbuh) message was radically different than those that had come before him.

Paul didn't abolish all of the law but that's ok, for it was clearly taught that NONE of the law could be abolished, but Paul did it anyway. in any event, that is called Pauline Christianity and, according to some scholars, should not be confused with the original Christian teachings. that, however, is another conversation entirely.

Jesus (pbuh) says to Peter "upon this Rock I will build my Church" (Mat 16:16) so we see that clearly Jesus (pbuh) used and understood the word being referenced.

as for ways to pray... Jesus (pbuh) set the formula in what is known as the "Lords' Prayer". It should be noted that this very forum is currently discussion the various method that Muslims pray, this statement is disengenuious at best.

The cross was well known and understood through the Roman empire and it is equally well known that criminals were executed on the cross. Jesus (pbuh), as well as nearly every other person in the Roman empire were well aware of this method of execution. It is not correct to say that Jesus (pbuh) had never heard of the cross, though you can say that Jesus (pbuh) was probably not aware of the iconic significance that said cross would play.





~compassionately~

[Ronnie]

Apple Pie we await answers.

[nr]

Paul didn't abolish all of the law but that's ok, for it was clearly taught that NONE of the law could be abolished, but Paul did it anyway.
Paul did not take anything away from the Law. He taught was that that Christ has fullfilled the Law and kept the Law perfectly, and so Christians only have to fullfilled Law which they know within their hearts.

It is not correct to say that Jesus (pbuh) had never heard of the cross, though you can say that Jesus (pbuh) was probably not aware of the iconic significance that said cross would play.
Jesus told his disciples that they much take up their cross which would suggest that Jesus did know the role it would play.





Edited by - nr on 02/20/2004 17:14:09

[C-R-O-W-]

Rima……


#in the Bible you won`t see a single word about christianity ,being a religion#
AND
#Jesus has never mentioned the word Christianity #
AND
#4.religious buildings for worship:
Muhamed had built the first mosque in meddina , he taught us to build the mosque ,a place where people gather to worship God and god alone
but yet Jesus has never built a church , he had never heard of the word Church , he actually taught the Jews in sinagogues
the first church was built too many years after Jesus , in fact the word church is unknown to Jesus #

You are right, Christianity is not a religion. Christianity is derived from the word Christian. It is from a Greek word which means, a people who “Imitate Christ”.

Matthew 11:28-30
"COME TO ME, all you who labor and are heavily burdened, and I WILL GIVE you rest. TAKE MY yoke upon you, and LEARN FROM ME, for I am gentle and lowly in heart; and YOU WILL FIND rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy, and my burden is light."

John 13:15
For I [Jesus] have given you AN EXAMPLE, that you also should DO AS I HAVE DONE to you.

1 Peter 2:19-21
For it is commendable if someone endures pain, suffering unjustly, because of conscience toward God. For what glory is it if, when you sin, you patiently endure beating? But if, when you do well, you patiently endure suffering, this is commendable with God. For to this you were called, because Christ also suffered for us, LEAVING YOU AN EXAMPLE, that you should FOLLOW HIS STEPS


Jesus did not talk about Christianity because it was a nickname given to those who imitated Jesus Christ.
On the contrary, Jesus called his Church. In Greek it means “Ekklesia”.
“Ek = Called” “Klesia = Out”. Literally it means, “Called out”.
This was not a word created by Christians, for the word “Ekklesia” already existed in the Greek Septuagint [which by-the-way was around before Jesus was born.]
“Ekklesia” is the Greek word for “Kahal” which is in Hebrew.
You can find the word “Kahal” all over the Hebrew Torah. In the English it is translated as “Congregation”, “Assembly” or “a Company”.

So, Ekklesia = Kahal = Church = Congregation = Assembly.

Matthew 16:18
I also tell you that you are Peter and on this rock, I WILL BUILD my [Assembly / Ekklesia / Kahal / Church], and the gates of [Schol / Hades] will not prevail against it.


Mark 3:14
Jesus APPOINTED twelve, that they might be with him, and THAT HE MIGHT SEND THEM OUT to proclaim

John 15:16
You didn’t choose me, but I CHOSE YOU, and APPOINTED you

John 15:19
I CHOSE YOU OUT of the world

As you can see from the last three quotes, Jesus, before he was crucified, was already building his [Assembly / Ekklesia / Kahal / Church]

Matt 18:15-17
“If your brother sins against you, go, show him his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained back your brother. But if he doesn’t listen, take one or two more with you, that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every word may be established. If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the [Assembly / Ekklesia / Kahal / Church]. If he refuses to hear the [Assembly / Ekklesia / Kahal / Church] also, let him be to you as a Gentile

=> So we find that the word Christian wasn’t even known by Jesus’ disciples until people [unbelievers?] decided to make fun of them and nicknamed then Christ imitators. [Acts 11:26; 1 Peter 4:13-16]

=> And Jesus wouldn’t have heard of the word “Church” because Jews did not use the English language, rather they used Aramaic or Hebrew.
And the word “Church” is not a building; rather the word “Church” is describing people, a people who are “Called out”. I know people in this day and age associate Church to mean a building, but that is incorrect.


#today we don`t have any Gospels by Jesus himself , it seems that the Gospel of Jesus has been lost#

Hum……
Do you know that the word Gospel is the same as for the word, Good News?
You will also find out that Jesus taught his disciples to TEACH, and PROCLAIM?
Jesus did not write a book and say to his disciples, “Here, Simon, Andrew, come here! Look, I have written this book for the world, I want you to copy it down and I want you to give it out at the street corners, and knock at every door and hand it out, maybe that way people might read my Gospel and believe.”

No, no, far from it. Jesus SPOKE, [i.e. Preached] the Good News/Gospel.
Like John the Baptist, he did not have a written Gospel with him when he preached, rather he SPOKE to the Children of Israel and said, repent, the Kingdom of Heaven is arriving. Likewise Jesus said, repent the kingdom of heaven has arrived, and it is among and in you.

#in fact too many books were written too many years after Jesus , and they are parts of the so called holy bible ,which Jesus had no knowledge about #

So then, WHY do SO MANY Muslims look and search for the prophesy of Mohammad in this “Holy Bible”?
In the New Testament, the Gospel of John attracts many Muslims and they say Mohammad is prophesied in it.
[P.s. the Gospel of John was written AFTER Matthew Mark and Luke]
Maybe you could teach those Muslim’s that say that they can find Mohammad in The Bible, that they are mistaken for looking for Mohammad in the “Holy Bible”.

#Muhamed had built the first mosque in meddina , he taught us to build the mosque ,a place where people gather to worship God and god alone#

That’s new to me.


#5.how to pray:
Muhamed taught his muslims , how to pray , he prayed and taught us the salat , and all muslims all over the world , since then we prayed in one and only one way
Jesus had prayed to his God (by bowing and kneeling) but yet not a single Christian prays the same way that Jesus prayed
in fact if you go to 125 different churches , you would see 125 different ways of prayers#

The way Muslims pray [or how they pray] is derived from Hadith’s. Quran has little to say about HOW to pray. Allah, in Quran, says, call to me and I will answer. He does not say, bow your knees to me and then I will answer you. That’s why you can’t find in Quran where it says, this is how you pray, this is how you bow, and this is how you move your hands while you bow. It all comes from Hadith’s

Matthew 6
"When you pray, you shall not be as the hypocrites, for they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen by men. Most assuredly, I tell you, they have received their reward. But you, when you pray, enter into your inner chamber, and having shut your door, pray to your Father who is in secret, and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly.
In praying, don't use vain repetitions, as the Gentiles do; for they think that they will be heard for their much speaking. Therefore don't be like them, for your Father knows what things you need, before you ask him.


Jesus gave us an example of a prayer:
Matthew 6
'Our Father in heaven, may your name be kept holy. Let your kingdom come. Let your will be done, as in heaven, so on earth. Give us today our daily bread. Forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. Bring us not into temptation, but deliver us from the evil one. For yours is the kingdom, the power, and the glory forever. Amen.'


And who said you have to bow down when you are praying? Quran?


Mark 11:24-25
Therefore I tell you, all things whatever you pray and ask for, believe that you receive them, and you shall have them. <font color=red>Whenever you STAND PRAYING, </font> forgive, if you have anything against anyone; so that your Father, who is in heaven, may also forgive you your transgressions.


=> Bible does not say you have to preform body movements while praying, because bible understands tat Prayer comes from the heart, not from body movements. When you pray, you are supposed to pray as though you are talking to your Heavenly Father, you are to be like a little child speaking to his/her Father who is in Heaven. [A little child’s prayer is innocent and genuine].

<Marquee
Praying is talking to God, Praying is not a physical ritual.</marquee>

Peace.



When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things

When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things

[Hischam Khan]

C-R-O-W writes:

“The way Muslims pray [or how they pray] is derived from Hadith’s.”

Incorrect! It is derived from the Sunnah of the Prophet. The Sunnah was initiated by the Prophet Abraham and in the time of the Prophet, he (the Prophet) revived it after making some corrections and alteration (under Divine guidance). Thus, the Prophet (P) instituted the act of prayers in all his followers to be adhered to strictly. The first community of Muslims always prayed and every subsequent generation continued the practice along with all other practices of the Sunnah. Remember that the Qur’an continuously stresses that the Prophet and his followers should follow the way of Abraham (and that is what the Sunnan are). Therefore the Sunnan are a primary source of Islam along with the Qur’an and they are not at all dependent on the Ahadith (micro-history). The Qur’an and the Sunnan have both reached us through the reliable process of Tawatur (generation to generation communication); they are both macro history.

P.S. When the Ahadith mention prayer it is only referring to a Sunnah.

[Hischam Khan]

C-R-O-W writes:

“And who said you have to bow down when you are praying? Quran?”

Yes the Qur’an mentions several times that we should bow along with those that bow. But as I stated we get the prayer from the Sunnah which is beyond a shadow of doubt in regards to its authenticity. You should also be aware of the fact that the Bible mentions Jesus (P) bowing when he prayed and several others in the Old Testament too.

You wrote:

"Praying is talking to God praying is not a physical ritual."

The English word for prayer may be understood as such but that doesn’t mean that the Arabic word is understood thus as well. There isn’t really a better way of praying than purifying oneself and attending prayers on time – standing before once Maker. It strengthens one’s faith and makes him/her feel closer to God. Psychologists are agreed that movements or postures like yoga or prayer and rituals can be very powerful. Prostrating to God, letting the highest part of mans body touch the floor (the lowest position) and praising God in the Highest ('Praise be to God in the Highest’) is indeed a very humble act. The prayers strengthen our faith and help keep us disciplined.





Edited by - Hischam Khan on 02/21/2004 08:56:09

[DfndrOfTheCross]

I truly believe many of the issues Rima has brought up are irrelevant and dont prove anything, and they come about from her deep lack of understanding of the Bible and Christian doctrine. I think Crow and Rn have answered Rima well. Just a coupl eof points im going to clarify.

Just to give an example of why Rima you lack understanding of Christian doctrine, you say for example that Jesus never heard of the gospel of Mark or Luke etc. Well the Bible makes it clear Jesus Christ was the word of God manifest in the flesh: "In the beggining was the word, and the word was with God, and the word was God" (John 1:1)

Now, Jesus Christ (the word of God) nearing the end of his ministry gave a lengthy monologue to his disciples, describing them the things that would soon happen to them. The Holy Spirit, the spirit of truth would descend upon them, and dwell within them, teaching them all things, and bringing to them remembrance all things, in order for them to preach the word of God and write down their gospel accounts. This is the Christian concept of divine inspiration, God came down upon them via the Holy Spirit and inspired their preachings and their words. Thats why they had the ability to speak in tongues and preach to all nations of all languages, amd thats why they also had the power to forgive sins, because they were acting under the authority of God: Thats why Jesus tells them "those sins you forgive shall be forgiven, and those you retain, shall be retained". For a full account of this brief comment, i suggest you go and read John chapters 13-17 and Matthew chapter 10, so you see everything in context.

Another thing, concerning the fact you say "the cross was unknown to Jesus". Actually Jesus was quite aware of the death that was awaiting him, and further more he knew of the Cross and emphasised the symbolism it will reprsent, before he was even crucified. Lets take a look:

Matthew 10:38 "and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me."

Matthew 16:24 "Then Jesus said to his disciples, "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

Mark 8:34 "Then he called the crowd to him along with his disciples and said: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross and follow me."

Luke 9:23 "Then he said to them all: "If anyone would come after me, he must deny himself and take up his cross daily and follow me."

Luke 14:27 "And anyone who does not carry his cross and follow me cannot be my disciple."

I'd love to have taken the time to answer more of the trivial issues you brought up, but my time does not permit this as of now, i'll check back on this post later on, and if i see some issue that is really causing some problems, i'll try my best to reply.

Peace be with you all. May the Lord enlighten our minds and hearts, and reveal the truth that stands clear from error.


"Evidently some people are throwing you into confusion and are trying to pervert the gospel of Christ. But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach a gospel other than the one we preached to you, let him be eternally condemned!" (Galatians 1:7-9)

Edited by - DfndrOfTheCross on 02/21/2004 09:35:46

[C-R-O-W-]

Well thank you for correcting me. Sunnah and not Hadith.
But it still remains that Quran has little to say about the 5 daily prayers, with their rhythmic body movements that are practiced by Muslims.

#The Sunnah was initiated by the Prophet Abraham and in the time of the Prophet, he (the Prophet) revived it after making some corrections and alteration (under Divine guidance). #

You should not forget that Abraham did not start the submission: -

Sura 3:33: -
Lo! Allah preferred Adam and Noah and the Family of Abraham

Sura 4:125: -
Who is better in religion than he who surrendereth his purpose to Allah while doing good (to men) and followeth the tradition of Abraham, the upright?

Meaning that Abraham was not the first to “aslam”.
Meaning that Abraham must have had to follow the “Way” of the earlier men of God, people such as the family of Noah who came from Adam.

[English translation of Quran says]
Sura 37:79-84…
"Peace be unto Noah among the nations!"
Thus indeed do we reward those who do right.
For he was one of our believing Servants.
Then the rest we overwhelmed in the Flood.
Verily among those who followed his Way was Abraham.


As you can see Abraham followed the “Way” of Noah.
Abraham did not create any new thing.
Abraham did not create the 5 daily prayers facing Mecca because Noah never practiced such a ‘Way’. Noah simply Called to God.
So, what the Prophet [Mohammad] prescribed in his Sunnah was something unknown to Noah and his family. So there was nothing for Mohammad to #revive# about the 5 daily prayers with certain hand movements. It was created in Mohammad’s time.

#Yes the Qur’an mentions several times that we should bow along with those that bow. #

I was not saying bowing was a bad thing; I was referring to the 5 daily prayers with their rhythmic hand movements. If I was a Muslim, following Quran, if I don’t pray 5 times a day at prescribed times [with no hand movements and not facing Mecca], other Muslims would probable consider me to be a bad Muslim because if I am correct, one of the five pillars of Islam is to pray 5 times a day [with certain hand movements and facing Mecca].

Peace.


When I was a child, I spoke as a child, I felt as a child, I thought as a child. Now that I have become a man, I have put away childish things

[Hischam Khan]

You wrote:

“Well thank you for correcting me. Sunnah and not Hadith.
But it still remains that Quran has little to say about the 5 daily prayers, with their rhythmic body movements that are practiced by Muslims”

You’re welcome and belief me it is exactly because prayer was already known that the Qur’an didn’t give details when referring to it. I think that all of the great religions are based on beliefs and practices. For Islam, the Qur’an contain the beliefs and the Sunnah the practices. There couldn’t have been a better way of describing the prayer then to give physical demonstrations. As I said both the Qur’an and Sunnah are primary sources of Islam. The Qur’an continuously stresses the importance of following the way of Abraham (P).


You wrote:

“You should not forget that Abraham did not start the submission…So, what the Prophet [Mohammad] prescribed in his Sunnah was something unknown to Noah and his family. So there was nothing for Mohammad to #revive# about the 5 daily prayers with certain hand movements. It was created in Mohammad’s time.”

Of course he didn’t start of submission but among the children of Abraham it was Abraham who initiated these practices. They were conveyed to the Israelites through Isaac and to the Arabs through Ishmael. You will find that most of the Sunnnan were known before the advent of the Holy Prophet in both Arabia and among the Israelis; they actually also ascribed to him so this is not unknown.

You wrote:

“I was not saying bowing was a bad thing; I was referring to the 5 daily prayers with their rhythmic hand movements. If I was a Muslim, following Quran, if I don’t pray 5 times a day at prescribed times [with no hand movements and not facing Mecca], other Muslims would probable consider me to be a bad Muslim because if I am correct, one of the five pillars of Islam is to pray 5 times a day [with certain hand movements and facing Mecca].”

Belief me if you were a good Muslim then you wouldn’t want to not pray five times a day. As I mentioned already, so postures on prescribed times are actually a good way of drawing near to God and of keeping oneself disciplined. It is the best of showing your submission and humbling yourself. It puts your words into action. According to Physiologists such things are very powerful.