A Question of Soul

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all, Salaam Someone

i had asked a question awhile ago but it was in the body of another post and it was probably overlooked, so i thought i'd post it with it's own thread.

i have two questions and they are related.

1) what is a "soul"?

2) how can i know that i have one?

i realize that these are very tough metaphysical questions and as such, my engender some Qur'anic repsonses, i would ask that you try, as much as possible, to explain it in non-technical terms that a non-muslim would be able to understand.

i look forward to your responses.

~compassionately~

[Sarafina]

Vajradhara,

As one of Jehovah's Witnesses (of the christian faith), I believe that the soul is our life force while living. Although we do believe in Heaven, we do not believe that when we die we have a spirit (or soul) that ascends to Heaven. We also do not believe in Hell. We believe that when our souls (living bodies) die, we are "conscious of nothing at all". However, we do believe that there will be a resurrection of the dead in the near future, and that righteous persons will then live for eternity on a pardise earth. (But, that is a topic for another time.)
Yours truly,
Sarafina

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Sarafina,

thank you for the post.

i'm famaliar with the Jehova's Witness school of Christianity, thank you for offering your perspective.

so, can i infer from your post that as the body ages the "life force" weakens as well, or in other words, as you get older your soul gets weaker until it is so weak that it can no longer support the physcial form?

as you can imagine, i've a completely different view of consciousness and what happens after the body dies

~compassionately~

[ayesha]

Varjadhra

I think it is the other way around. The body grows so weak that it cannot contain the soul anymore...

Anyhow, Allah says clearly in the Quran that very little information regarding the 'soul' has been given to us.

Once we die, we go into a kind of slumber the comfort or the discomfort of which, would be according to our deeds in this world. We would be brought back to life when the HOUR is established and would be judged according to our deeds.

Ronnie, correct me if I am wrong!

[sadlyyours]

sadly i ponder.

but the satisfactory answer i hear from no one, not even from myself.

body can adopt many postures. noraml. abnormal. healthy. not healthy. sick.

but the feelings remain. ambitions remain. love or hate. humans we remain.

in my opinion humanity is the soul. long topic for another time.

sorry i cannot say it too well, but body is also the soul in the sense that it causes our soul. once body cannot support us, soul just takes off to another body.

then the politicians, and mullas come and kill us all. i mean our souls.

if that was not the case then we would be human.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste sadlyyours,

my friend, i wish that i spoke Urdu so that we could have a conversation where you could completely express your thoughts... i find what you have to say quite remarkable and stimulating!

Salaam Ayeshah,

thank you for the post.

ah.. so in you're view it's more as if the soul is "ageless" and as the physical form weakens the soul remains as strong as ever, then as the form decays the spirit bursts forth... would that be a fair summation?

~compassionately~

[ayesha]

Vajradhara

Yes, could be a fair summation...

However, I try to keep my summations on the knowledge I have (which is shamefully insufficient).

I look at it this way...

Life (i.e. human life) is a unison of body and soul. We cannot say what the soul is made of. However, the life, as we know it, only exists in this unison. Once, the soul is taken out of the body, we lose count of time and all other dimensions. We come to life again only when our body is reunited with our soul. That is when our second life begins.

In my case, I do not wonder much about things we have been given little information about.

So we believe....

[Aslam]

Namaste,
Vajradhara,
U have kicked off an interesting discussion.I have started reading
about Buddhism.In one book I read that there is no concept of soul in
Buddhism. Is this correct?
Aslam

[Vajradhara]

Namaste quranophile,

thank you for the post.

that would be a fair summation, the majority of Buddhists do not believe that there is such a thing as a "soul". there are, however, a few schools of thought that posit something similar, though very different in it's ramifications.

in many sutras and so forth, the soul is referred to as the "self" and vice versa. briefly, when performing the Analysis of the 5 Heaps you will discover that in no "place" will you find the "self". the "self" only exists in relation to objects it encounters.. without the subject the object fails to appear and without the object the subject fails to respond. there is, as you can probably imagine, a great deal more that can be said on this point.

perhaps, though, this would be a better topic to raise in the Interfaith Dialog area... what are your thoughts on that?

i'm happy to proceed in this thread should you so choose.

let me continue on in a different vein here though...

one of the problems that i have with Monotheism or more specifically, the concept of being a "created" being, is that in no sense can i identify the thing that is supposed to exist after this form dies. Christian Theology has a few different points of view on this, depending on the school that you follow. i'm not sure that Islam has more than one view on this, and i presume that the view previously stated is accurate. basically, it can be summed up as i do not share the Mechanistic view of nature.

what is it that sleeps and gets awakened? this physical form? along with all it's memories, feelings and aspiriations?

tangentially, i do find it very interesting that within Islam a person such as myself could still be (what's the word here) "rescued" at the Day of Judgement. from what i've been able to tell, only if you've become convinced of the Truth of Islam and then reject it, will the time in Hell be extended and painful or if you are a polytheist.

sorry for the sloppy Theology, i'm still new at it

~compassionately~

[nr]

One the best answers to b is to do some charitable works
only out of kindness.

tangentially, i do find it very interesting that within Islam a person such as myself could still be (what's the word here) "rescued" at the Day of Judgement. from what i've been able to tell, only if you've become convinced of the Truth of Islam and then reject it, will the time in Hell be extended and painful or if you are a polytheist.

Most Christians believe this. In any case we are not
supposed judge anyone. However Relevation Christ says
that he will judge by their deeds.

that would be a fair summation, the majority of Buddhists do not believe that there is such a thing as a "soul". there are, however, a few schools of thought that posit something similar, though very different in it's ramifications.

However you believe in reincarnation which means
that there is a entity that exist apart from the physical
self that decays right?

[Sarafina]

Sorry for the late reply.

I was asked if it was my belief that the soul gets weaker as the body grows old and weakens and my answer is this: old age and death are punishments inherited by all of us from our first parents (adam and eve). Just as they were never meant to die when they were first created, I believe that there will come a day when the question of soveriegnty between Jehovah God and Satan the Devil will be answered and we will have everlasting life here on earth (not in heaven).

So, in answer to your question, No the soul does not get weaker.

Whether we are strong youths or weak elderly, we are still very much alive until we die. I could not say that my existance is any stronger than anyone elses because I am young. Our bodies are a very cleverly crafted machine. We have memories, attitudes which can be learned or inherited, and many complex systems that function perfectly (unless we are sick) within us. However, the bible makes clear (and if anyone doubts I will be happy to provide scriptures for proof) that when we die we are conscious of nothing. There is no devising in sheol.

So there is no spiritual being within us that is released in death. We just are who and what we are; when we die, we are nothing. But the great hope for those who have died and will die is that one day there will be a resurrection on earth for the righteous and unrighteous. The unrighteous will have to be taught the way of Jehovah.

If they accept Him, their resurrection will be to a judgment of everlasting life. Those who choose not to accept Him will have a second death which will be everlasting.

This is me belief.

-Sarafina-

[nr]

However, the bible makes clear (and if anyone doubts I will be happy to provide scriptures for proof) that when we die we are conscious of nothing. There is no devising in sheol.

This is not clear. Certainly because Peter saw Jesus
conversing with Abraham and Moses the dead of the OT
were concience of their existance. This is kind of
off topic here since most muslism don't accept bibical proofs (:

So there is no spiritual being within us that is released in death. We just are who and what we are; when we die, we are nothing. But the great hope for those who have died and will die is that one day there will be a resurrection on earth for the righteous and unrighteous. The unrighteous will have to be taught the way of Jehovah.

No. God told Moses "I AM the God of Abraham" so
at the time of Moses Abraham still existed somewhere.
Also Paul speaks much of the spiritual verses the sinful flesh.
If we were just flesh God would not say "man does not live
on bread alone but upon every word of God".

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

thank you for the posts.

nr, reincarnation is different than rebirth. i believe that i have expounded on the relative difference between the two on another thread and as such, i shall not go into great detail here.

but to answer your question directly, no there is not a seperate entity that exists after the death of this form. *shudders to think what another buddhist would say about that!*

Sarafina, thank you for the post. of course in my tradition it's almost the complete opposite! not only is there something after death, the dying process can be experienced and the outcome of your rebirth changed by doing the correct practices during this time. briefly, the concept is called "Bardo" and there are several Bardos that one passes through during the dying process. it would be difficult, if not impossible, to explain this in any detail on the forum however i will generalize as much as possible to make the meaning more clear. suffice it to say that, at this moment (death) we have it in our power to influence the successive rebirth, or end it altogether, which is the point of Buddhist praxis.

~compassionately~

[BinZiad]

Assallamu alaikum to all and greetings. New to here, i hope to assit our guest vajradhara.

To some of your questions about the soul. There are have been many ulama (scholars) that have written many treatises of this nature. They are mostly in arabic. One such book is done by the great Hujjat-ul-islam Imam Ghazzali.

The below being some excerpts from the book called; THE MYSTERIES OF THE HUMAN SOUL (AL-MADNUN BIHI `ALA GHAIR AHLIHI). It can be purchased from book shops, but it is also avaiable online.

Check this link to view the complete book and more information regarding the 'soul' and its definition and nature.

http://www.wponline.org/vil/Books/AG_MHS/Default.htm



"The Reality of the Human Soul

Having arrived at the conclusion that no other problem arouses the inquirers’ interest so much, or sets their minds to thinking, as this universal problem concerning the nature of the human soul and its destiny, we answered: This question relates to the secrets of the human soul, and there seems little doubt that Absolute Truth is unattainable by the human mind. Moreover, the soul is a mystery unholy for men to know and the Prophet (may peace be upon him) has emphatically forbidden common folk and laymen to ask and discuss such questions as are beyond the reach of their understanding. The thing in itself is subtle and beyond the comprehension of most minds. Imagination fails to imagine its truth. Consequently its comprehension is restricted to the elite, who should not divulge it to those who are unable to grasp it, lest whenever their minds fail to comprehend it or to understand the concealed secrets of the spirit, it becomes a calamity to them. But if you are the seekers after truth with a major talent in creative thinking and an insight for realities, we would not hesitate to explain things in this regard. Know that the soul does not resemble other bodies either in limitation or in accepting division. It is not an accident, so as to necessitate attachment to body like blackness in a black thing, or knowledge in the mind of the learned. It is an essence and can produce consciousness or intelligence, which is the important factor and only the property of the living soul. It recognizes itself and its Creator and knows spiritual realities. An accident does not contain these attributes. It exists independent of the body and does not accept division."




"The difference in soul before the existence of bodies is impossible, for the difference is of two kinds:

(I) Difference in kind and nature like water and fire, whiteness and blackness, knowledge and ignorance.

(2) Difference in accidents which have no relation with nature, like the difference in cold and hot water.



It is absurd to imagine that souls are different from one another in respect of nature, because all human souls belong to the same category and are the same in view of their nature or reality. Their mutual difference in respect of accidents is also impossible, because when a nature is attached to bodies or is attributed to them in any manner, it becomes different as the result of contact with accidents, for there must be difference in the parts of a body, but when a nature is not attached to bodies, it is impossible to find difference in it. The problem requires a lengthy discussion for its solution, but we cannot afford it at the cost of brevity."

The Nature and Essence of the Human Soul
Abu Bilal Mustafa al-Kanad
Read it here: http://www.crescentlife.com/articles...human_soul.htm

Both links are vital for reading and there are material out there. Do get back, if you require more information.

BinZiad. A friend.

Abdullah Ibn Masood radiallahu anhu: ‘If you desire knowledge, then delve and
concentrate on the meaning of the Qur’aan, for it contains the knowledge of those
who have past before us, and of those yet to come.’

[Vajradhara]

Namate BinZiad,

thank you for the post. it was quite appreciated.

i read the referenced links and i really did appreciate their inclusion in your post. i found it interesting that the second link seemed to be from a Sufi website.. i infer that from the vast postings on Sufism and the positive tone in which they are presented.

i think the first link does a very good job of explaining the Islamic view of "soul" and so forth. it seems, if i understood correctly, that there is some knowledge that is withheld from the general worshipper and possessed by only a few. i would be interested in speaking with one of those few.

~compassionately~