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Thread: Christian Boy Marry Muslim Girl

  1. #46
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    Default Re: Christian Boy Marry Muslim Girl

    Quote Originally Posted by vinod
    surfinjo, good theoretical post with just one bone to pick - love being God's gift for Christians and just a feeling for muslims yadda yadda yadda.
    I wonder why you felt the need to dehumanize muslims at the end of your post.
    I would like to sincerely apologise to any who read the post as it was written.

    It was not my intention to suggest that Love is God's gift to Christians.

    It was certainly not my intention to suggest that love is not experienced by Muslims.

    I know a number of Muslim couples and the love they feel for each other is very evident.

    Clumsy writing can create distasteful impressions. To suggest either of these things would be and is quite distasteful. I can only ask that you accept my assurance that this was not my intent.

    I am very sorry to everyone.

    Love is God's gift to all mankind.

    The devotion that domestic animals, generally dogs, cats only love themselves, can show toward their owners, is a feature of their social instincts. Dogs exist within a social structure defined by their innate instinct. Domestic dogs regard their owner in the same way as a wild dog would regard the pack leader.

    Animals have little choice over how they live. Humans do as clearly indicated by the wide variation of social structure that different human societies enjoy.

    My point was to indicate that, for Christians, love is a very spiritual experience. We get married when we love someone and they love us.

    For Muslims, marriages are arranged, within boundaries. They hope that love will develop later.

    opticyclic has a long term relationship with this girl. That relationship is based upon who he is.

    He should ask this girl to marry him because she clearly likes him for who he is.

    To convert to Islam will change who he is.

    To try to change her religion is declaring that he doesn't like her as she is. It is also unchristian.

    From what he has said, there is real love between them. They should marry, they will produce children in an atmosphere of love, their differences will compliment.

    Hopefully, though this may be stretching hope a bit, those children will grow up with the best values of Christians and the best values of Muslims.

    The world could do with such wonderful people.

  2. #47
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    Default Re: Christian Boy Marry Muslim Girl

    Quote Originally Posted by surfinjo
    My point was to indicate that, for Christians, love is a very spiritual experience. We get married when we love someone and they love us.

    For Muslims, marriages are arranged, within boundaries. They hope that love will develop later.

    This is such a shallow understanding of reality and cultural differences. Christians in India have completely arranged marriages like the muslims and like most other Indian families. Muslims in America have not-so-arranged marriages. It doesn't say anything about the spiritual experience of love.

    you are taking the thread to a the differences between "arranged" and "love" marriages. By the way, marriages in India which are all "arranged" have much better success rates than marriages in the US which are mostly "love" marriages. What does that say?

    "Arrangement" in marriages is essential in some cultures in lieu of the traditions that govern the post-marriage life of the couple. For eg, in the Indian culture, the bride has to invariably leave the home of her parents and stay with the husband. And it is not uncommon that the husband stays along with his parents. Also, marriages are prestige-building occassions for the families. If the son is married into a family which has some issues, then it could bring a bad name to his family (parents and relatives) and affect the chances of marriage of any of his siblings. Family reputation, as you can see, is inextricably tied to the children's marriages. And this is not just a muslim thing, it cuts across religions. Most families in India, Pakistan, Bangladesh, Sri lanka, Indonesia, Malaysia, China, Middle East have such cultural nuances. Compare that to what happens in the West (Ratatosk, don't u say a word ). Marriages are individual occassions and hardly have any bearing on family reputations and the lives of siblings. The couple get to stay together away from each other's families.
    There are pros and cons of each way of life. These "arrangements" though pooh-poohed upon by the flagbearers of "love" marriages actually go a long way in easiing any potential conflicts even before the couple start off their marriage. Each of these traditions undergo modifications even as we speak. Indian families now give more freedom for the children to speak and choose their life partners under certain boundary conditions of caste, religion etc. Work realities and the demands of a global workspace also force the couple to stay together away from their parents. I am not aware of whether the western (Ratsky, no )marriage traditions are undergoing any changes. I can't comment on that.

    While your glorification of love may seem all very ideal, marriages get shaken and tested quite a bit due to the demands of parents, siblings, relations, friends, work which bring about conflicting human emotions of love to different parties and pursuits. If you imagine a "love" marriage to have a smooth ride over all this, then you are badly mistaken. It's important to go into a marriage, especially the kind opti has to face, with a clear understanding of the possible challenges. Wishy-washy feelings of love alone will probably not take opti through his marriage. He needs to be aware of the possible sources of tension and prepare for them.

    Quote Originally Posted by surfinjo
    He should ask this girl to marry him because she clearly likes him for who he is.
    She also clearly loves her parents inspite of who they are and they do not like Opti much. Opti should tread carefully. The girl is facing conflicting powerful emotions and may be indecisive. It's not as simple as you put it, surfinjo.

    Regards

  3. #48
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    Default Re: Christian Boy Marry Muslim Girl

    the izaareen dot

  4. #49
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    Default Re: Christian Boy Marry Muslim Girl

    Quote Originally Posted by vinod
    This is such a shallow understanding of reality and cultural differences. Christians in India have completely arranged marriages like the muslims and like most other Indian families. Muslims in America have not-so-arranged marriages. It doesn't say anything about the spiritual experience of love..........By the way, marriages in India which are all "arranged" have much better success rates than marriages in the US which are mostly "love" marriages. What does that say?
    No, I have a very clear understanding of the theological differences. The cultural differences are a separate matter.

    Christians in India do many things. (Though they do not have completely arranged marriages as you suggest. There is a tradition among some Christian communities for arranged marriages. Mostly this is due to local pressure to conform to the norms of non-Christian communities.).

    You will be aware that Muslims in India often demand substantial payment for a bride's family. This does not indicate anything essential about Islam nor Christianity but quite a bit about India.

    You may not be aware that there are many practises among Muslims in Pakistan, (very much part of India), despite many years of apparent Sharia law, that go very much against Islamic law.

    As it happens, I do have a very good understanding of the theology and society of India and its Hindu roots.

    The non-Indian Christian and Muslim communities would do well to avoid seeking reference from the example of India. The strength of Hindu culture there, is all pervasive.

    As for the divorce rate in the US. This has, to a large extent, become part of the cultural life of that society.

    Christians are not permitted to divorce other than in exceptional circumstances which were outlined by Jesus.

    Sadly, in the US, there are some apparent christian preachers who make all sorts of claims which go against Jesus' teachings, including advocating: 'An Eye for an Eye and a Tooth for a Tooth', despite of all Jesus said.


    Quote Originally Posted by vinod
    "Arrangement" in marriages is essential in some cultures in lieu of the traditions that govern the post-marriage life of the couple
    There is a surprising consistency all over Asia with the customs of marriage and the traditions of daughters after marriage, though is some areas the conditions are much stricter.

    This is a consequence of an ancient domination of Asia by China which was a strong empire when the Middle East was still trying to figure out what a camel was and Europe was still covered in Ice!

    Islam is essentially an Asian culture with militant overtones.

    But this situation is not occurring in Asia. It is occurring in the UK. This girl and her family are clearly very European. They pay lip service to Islamic law.


    Quote Originally Posted by vinod
    .........Family reputation, as you can see, is inextricably tied to the children's marriages. These "arrangements" though pooh-poohed upon by the flagbearers of "love" marriages actually go a long way in easiing any potential conflicts even before the couple start off their marriage. ........While your glorification of love may seem all very ideal, marriages get shaken and tested quite a bit due to the demands of parents, siblings, relations, friends, work which bring about conflicting human emotions of love to different parties and pursuits...........
    If this family was so concerned with its reputation within the Islamic community they wouldn't be permitting their daughter to spend time with a non-Mahram man.

    It is obvious that such traditions are being used when it suits them. Culture is not the issue here.

    Many people from Asian cultures and religions make reference to 'love' marriages as if these are simply childish whims.

    Love is God's gift to mankind. It does indeed have the tendency to undermine our feelings of self importance and maturity.

    Muslims and others can dismiss God's gift in this way. That is their choice.

    Personally, I thank God for all of His gifts to us.


    Quote Originally Posted by vinod
    She also clearly loves her parents inspite of who they are and they do not like Opti much.
    Most of us do indeed love our parents. Even children who are treated in quite horrible ways by their parents still feel that love. (I use to work in social services).

    But this young woman needs to think about her own life.

    Marriage is two people joining themselves together as a single unit for their own benefit and that of their children.

    She will need to spend the next X number of years living it.


    Young women have traditionally been restricted socially in many cultures in many different ways. The reason is that the consequence of sexual activity for young women is pregnancy.

    Young men tend to have fewer social restrictions placed upon them.

    Different cultures have different methods of dealing with this. In some part of Africa for example, a young woman with children may still be very desirable as a wife due to the established relationship that will exist between husband and wife.

    In many parts of China, young women would dress as boys until they were married. Once married they would no longer be part of their own family and have little or no contact with it.

    In many indiginous American cultures, women were possessions and were exchanged along with any other material property.

    Islam and many other cultures place severe restrictions on relationships between men and women. In some parts of the Islamic world, a woman who appears without her hajib in public would risk being stoned to death.

    In European culture we have a tradition of self control. Decent young women and decent young men do not engage in sexual activity. (The advent of birth control has somewhat negated the consequences, but the vast majority of decent young men and women do not engage is unbridled sexual activity).

  5. #50
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    I believe that a real christian would never force his son or daughter into an arranged marriage,that goes against the golden rule:do to others as you would have them do to you.People who do that are only technical christians,people who think they are christian because they have been baptized as a baby and they have never even read the bible.

    In quebec we have millions of them,especially catholics,who say they are christians and have never even read a page of the new testament.so a real christian would never do what a culture says if it goes against the golden rule.If he does then he is a false christian:just read Jesus' parable of the sheep and the goats.

    It is about christians and "christians".The sheep go to heaven and the goats are condemned to hell:they say to Jesus:havent we done this and that in your name?notice they think that they are real christians when in fact for them it is just a tag.And Jesus says:away from me,evildoers,I do not know you.

    So if a daughter,for example,becomes a prostitute,the parents have to forgive her because she doesnt know what she is doing,she is blind to the ways of God.That is why we have a saying in the west:FAMILY is FAMILY.

    And if she later repents,then the parents have to be take her back in.If the "culture" in that society says to never have anything to do with your daughter for the rest of your life then it has to be thrown out the window,because what Jesus wants is more important that the norms of a certain civilization.

  6. #51

    Default Re: Christian Boy Marry Muslim Girl

    Mary (mother of Jesus (pbuh)) was married to Joseph in an arranged marriage. Arranged marriages were common at the time of Jesus (pbuh) but to my knowledge he never spoke against them.

    Quote Originally Posted by surfinjo
    Islam is essentially an Asian culture with militant overtones.
    Oh my, what a broad brush you have.



  7. #52
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    Default Re: Christian Boy Marry Muslim Girl

    Since Mary married Joseph before Jesus was born the matter is irrelevant.

    However the point here is not about arranged marriages so this is irrelevant as well.



    Oh my, what a broad brush you have.
    I'm sure you have a point to make here. It will be clearer if you avoid rhetorical generalisations and make it.

  8. #53
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    Default Re: Christian Boy Marry Muslim Girl

    Peace surfinjo,
    I'm sure you have a point to make here.
    With all due respect, I have to side with Chuck here. Perhaps it would be of service if you'd keep cultural customs and religious traditions separate. I understand that these are in many cases almost irrevocably intertwined, but there is still a world of difference between faith and culture.

    Perhaps a slight rewording of the generalization would be appropriate. Whadd'ya say?

    Regards,
    think

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    Ratatosk

    I am sorry that you find the description of Islam as Asian and militant disturbing.

    However, these are the realities.

    The culture which Islam seeks to impose is very Asian. The belief system, especially the process of spiritual growth leading to heightened spiritual awareness, which appears in many Islamic teachings has its origins in Hinduism. The attitudes toward the protection of women with its presumptions of uncontrolled sexual impropriety are very Asian. The organisation of Islamic society, based upon the rule of mutually appointed scholars using established and immutable texts is an Asian political construct.

    The Muslim community has a strong and widely known reputation for confrontational attitudes. It's traditions, outlined in the Hadith and propounded by Islamic preachers, encourage its followers to voice its opposition to that which it sees as being against Islamic teachings. Equally, it encourages its followers to impose its value system and governance structure often by force.

    I appreciate the association of militant with pseudo-military groups, so called terrorists. However, the term has wider connotations.

    A trade union, for example, may call upon its members to stop working in support of its demands. It would not necessarily support any violence of any kind. However, a 'strike' of this kind, however peaceful, would be termed militant.

    The meaning of the term is a group acting as a unit to impose its demands upon those who resist.

    It does not necessarily imply violence.

    Perhaps you should permit your intellect to overcome your personal sensitivities.

    It's a sad reality that some from all of the principal religious communities use perverted teachings to justify disgraceful behaviour. (Bush has recently claimed divine justification for his murderious wars. bin Laden apparently has claimed the killing of 3000 peple was a jihad action as two examples.)

    It will be tragic if we, as decent intellectuals, allow ourselves to create animosity because of the behaviour of some whom we all find objectionable.

    To do so will be to allow the evil doers to win and intellect will fail.

  10. #55
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    Surfinjo,

    You came in dissumlated in humble Christian attitude. I'm not sure what happened but it seems you have some matters on your mind that put you in a bit of a different light.
    I am sorry that you find the description of Islam as Asian and militant disturbing.
    It's not disturbing it's factually wrong, unless of course you can prove it. By the way what is "Asian" or "Asian culture?" What do you mean by militant and how does it apply to Islam?
    However, these are the realities.
    I assure you we've heard this before. But I'm sure you have something new to offer.
    The culture which Islam seeks to impose is very Asian.
    Prove it.
    The belief system, especially the process of spiritual growth leading to heightened spiritual awareness, which appears in many Islamic teachings has its origins in Hinduism.
    Is that like saying Christianity and the concept of Jesus (pbuh) have been adopted from Buddhism? Please prove this statement of yours.
    The attitudes toward the protection of women with its presumptions of uncontrolled sexual impropriety are very Asian.
    Can you explain this? Are only the "Asians" who care about "protection" of women?
    The organisation of Islamic society
    What's that?
    based upon the rule of mutually appointed scholars using established and immutable texts is an Asian political construct.
    "Mutually appointed scholars," what's that? Is there a vote that happens? Do the candidates advertise themselves? What's the election process? Where did you get this information from?
    The Muslim community has a strong and widely known reputation for confrontational attitudes.
    Is that like saying Christianity has a long, bloody history? By the way is this a fact or an opinion?
    It's traditions, outlined in the Hadith and propounded by Islamic preachers, encourage its followers to voice its opposition to that which it sees as being against Islamic teachings.
    And these are what?
    Equally, it encourages its followers to impose its value system and governance structure often by force.
    Source please?
    I appreciate the association of militant with pseudo-military groups, so called terrorists. However, the term has wider connotations.
    Sure: mil·i·tant ( P ) Pronunciation Key (ml-tnt)
    adj.
    Fighting or warring.
    Having a combative character; aggressive, especially in the service of a cause: a militant political activist.
    n.
    A fighting, warring, or aggressive person or party.

    A trade union, for example, may call upon its members to stop working in support of its demands. It would not necessarily support any violence of any kind. However, a 'strike' of this kind, however peaceful, would be termed militant.
    Is this the "connotation" you're speaking of? So seeking rights is militant and militant is not so bad then? Would you say Chrisitianity is apathetic?
    The meaning of the term is a group acting as a unit to impose its demands upon those who resist.
    More accurately, wouldn't it be those acting to receive their demands than "impose?"
    Perhaps you should permit your intellect to overcome your personal sensitivities.
    While we appreciate this advice, one wonders how the one giving the advice could be using so much of what he prescribes when it in itself is bereft of facts or truth. What is intellect without understanding and knowledge?
    It's a sad reality that some from all of the principal religious communities use perverted teachings to justify disgraceful behaviour.
    I think you mean that the "perverted teachings" are taught by men not by the religion and that the religions are misused, correct?
    It will be tragic if we, as decent intellectuals, allow ourselves to create animosity because of the behaviour of some whom we all find objectionable.
    I think these types of posts creates animosity because they belie the truth of the matter. Of what purpose and what good does it do to come to an Islamic forum and tell us the "truth" about our religion? Wouldn't you agree that the mis-education people allow themselves is one of the diseases that causes these problems?

    Regards

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    one wonders how the one giving the advice could be using so much of what he prescribes when it in itself is bereft of facts or truth. What is intellect without understanding and knowledge?
    Good point.

    Here we have a discussion which has been brought to a complete stop because some over sensitive individuals have chosen to find offence at a perfectly innocuous description of Islam as being Asian and militant.

    I seek knowledge and understanding. I assume you do as well.

    Neither of us will achieve anything if we are to be forced to repeatedly present explanations and justifications to every metaphor to success waves of overly sensitieve souls with a different take.

    I wonder if you have asked yourself why you feel this sensitive?


    You came in dissumlated in humble Christian attitude. I'm not sure what happened but it seems you have some matters on your mind that put you in a bit of a different light.
    ???????

  12. #57
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    Peace surfinjo,
    Here we have a discussion which has been brought to a complete stop
    Au contraire, my friend. The discussion, as it were, is as mobile as ever.
    because some over sensitive individuals have chosen to find offence at a perfectly innocuous description of Islam as being Asian and militant.
    Hmm.. some strange assertions in that sentence, if I may interject. I do not find Ron to be overly sensitive. At all. I you choose to hang around for a while, I guess you'll arrive at the same conclusion. There's a giganto-normous, huge, mega-whopping difference between reacting and over-reacting, wouldn't you agree? Also, I don't think that describing a religion as Asian and militant (quote/unquote) is really that innocuous. Just as an obvious example, think of the muslim Granadan Kingdom and Alhambra. Asian? Not in your life, mate. Islamic? Most certainly.
    I seek knowledge and understanding. I assume you do as well.
    We are all mere students here. In that, I greet thee.
    Neither of us will achieve anything if we are to be forced to repeatedly present explanations and justifications to every metaphor to success waves of overly sensitieve souls with a different take.
    Mighty strangely put. Are you saying we will never achieve anything by teaching the meanings behind metaphors or offering our understanding and wisdom? Please say you aren't.
    I wonder if you have asked yourself why you feel this sensitive?
    In your view, are we being sensitive? How, again in your view, would you in such a case define "sensitive"? I'm eager to learn, please enlighten me.

    Regards,
    think

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    Surfinjo,
    Here we have a discussion which has been brought to a complete stop because some over sensitive individuals have chosen to find offence at a perfectly innocuous description of Islam as being Asian and militant.
    I'll assume you're referring to me. By far - the posts in this forum (I have probably more than 3000) are proof - I am no where near "over sensitive." Your framing of your post as being "innocuous" misrepresents the truth of the matter. It is not innocuous; rather, it is laden with misinformation, falsity and blatant lack of knowledge. If these things are innocuous then I don't know what harmful is. Misleading people and making claims about other's religions - inaccurately at that. It's not only potentially harmful...it's not nice. To be honest if you complain that we are being overly sensitive then we can only view your expression as being insensitive and untrue.
    I seek knowledge and understanding. I assume you do as well.
    This is how I seek; let's say I want to learn about Christianity:

    -I may do some research in the Bible and other Christian works.
    -I may have a conversation with a Christian and ask him about his religion. I don't think that the Christian would have much to say to me if I begin a diatribe about Christianity being a European, supremacist religion.
    Neither of us will achieve anything if we are to be forced to repeatedly present explanations and justifications to every metaphor to success waves of overly sensitieve souls with a different take.
    Forget the "metaphor" how about backing up what you say? I asked some specific questions to some comments you made...you didn't answer them, why is that?
    I wonder if you have asked yourself why you feel this sensitive?
    Have you asked why you're so insensitive? or unknowledgeable? Are you implying something in your question in regards to the militancy you were referring to?
    ???????
    Peace

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    It is not innocuous; rather, it is laden with misinformation, falsity and blatant lack of knowledge.
    In that case, would it not be more conducive to discussion if you were to correct that lack of knowledge rather than ranting about how offended you are by someone who, according to you lacks knowledge?

    if I begin a diatribe about Christianity being a European, supremacist religion.
    As it happens, many of those propounding their versions of Christianity are indeed, either intentionally or unintentionally pursuing a supremacist European religion.

    However, in the case of Christianity, the truth is there for all to read, in the Gospels, in the words of Jesus.

    Such references to the old testament with its various, often disgusting pronouncements are irrelevant to the teachings of Jesus, (apart from the 10 Commandments). This is clear once we read the teachings of Jesus in isolation.

    But the culture that has grown up around the often corrupt versions of Christianity has indeed become intolerant, materialistic, greedy and murderous.

    The teachings of Muhammad seem to be rather more obscure, principally because the most important texts, the hadith are divided into Sahih, Hasan, Daeef and Mawdoo, so trying to understand which are relevant becomes complicated. The matter is further complicated by the many disagreements between Muslims as to which hadith are suppose to be in which category.

    The culture that has grown up around the many versions of Islam is generally a mix of local custom and those aspects of Islam which seem to suit.

    Such anomalies as http://www.arabnews.com/?page=1&sect...=19&m=3&y=2004

    and http://www.assistnews.net/STORIES/2004/s04110038.htm

    Which most decent Muslim would abhor.

    I follow the teachings of Jesus as they are recorded. (admittedly, written down 80 years after His death)

    You follow the teachings of Muhammad as they are recorded. (admittedly compiled about 40 years after his death in the case of the Quran and 100 to 300 years in the case of the more relevant Hadith).

    We can discuss our personal beliefs regarding our respective faiths in a spirit of mutual respect, interest and disagreement.

    We can discuss the cultural consequences of the way our respective faiths have been manipulated in a spirit of enquiry, understanding and concern.

    By doing so we can achieve something constructive. We may be a small group but each journey, as they say, begins with one step.

    Or, we can nit pick over terminologies and find endless reasons not to communicate at all.

    Then nothing will be achieved.

  15. #60
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    Default Re: Christian Boy Marry Muslim Girl

    Quote Originally Posted by surfinjo
    As it happens, I do have a very good understanding of the theology and society of India and its Hindu roots.
    You do? How is that? Just curious. I'm from India myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by surfinjo
    As for the divorce rate in the US. This has, to a large extent, become part of the cultural life of that society.

    Sadly, in the US, there are some apparent christian preachers who make all sorts of claims which go against Jesus' teachings, including advocating: 'An Eye for an Eye and a Tooth for a Tooth', despite of all Jesus said.
    Glad you acknowledge these. I hope through these you are able to see the point that the prevalence of "love" marriages does not make the Christian experience of love any more divine than the non-Chrisitan experience in an "arranged" marriage. The methods of finding a spouse in the Asian and Western sphere are different because there are different variables at stake in the post marriage period of the couple. To ignore that and to spinout some divine-love argument for the supremacy of the western/Christian method is nothing but smacking of an elitist mindset.


    Quote Originally Posted by surfinjo
    This is a consequence of an ancient domination of Asia by China which was a strong empire when the Middle East was still trying to figure out what a camel was and Europe was still covered in Ice!
    Educate me about this period of history, pls. Which era is this referring to?

    Quote Originally Posted by surfinjo
    If this family was so concerned with its reputation within the Islamic community they wouldn't be permitting their daughter to spend time with a non-Mahram man.
    Most of that behaviour doesn't get much visibility in the community. Even if it does, it is dismissed as teenagery indulging. It's not taken seriously to make a big fuss about. By the way, I'm not claiming that family reputation is the reason for this girl's parent's objection. I was speaking generally.

    Quote Originally Posted by surfinjo
    Many people from Asian cultures and religions make reference to 'love' marriages as if these are simply childish whims
    And many people of the west forget that there is a lot of room for choice and love-development even in the arranged marriage method. The method actually varies quite a bit across the economic classes and castes. Many Westeners think of arranged marriage as nothing but compelled marriages. That's bogus.

    Quote Originally Posted by surfinjo
    Muslims and others can dismiss God's gift in this way. That is their choice.
    And christians can delude themselves to be in divine love. That is their choice.

    Quote Originally Posted by surfinjo
    Islam and many other cultures place severe restrictions on relationships between men and women. In some parts of the Islamic world, a woman who appears without her hajib in public would risk being stoned to death.
    Could you quote the restrictions that Islam places on relationships between unmarried men and women? I expect evidence from the Quran and Sunnah. I know the cultural forms of those restrictions. But since you mentioned 'Islam' then I'd like to know what exactly of the religion are you referring to.

    Regards

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