Searching for a greatest purpose for creation.

[BumbleBee]

Vaj, Vaj, Vaj.

that is one of the reasons, to be sure.

Yes, it does work the brain and heart to contemplate that Allah is free of all needs and is eternal, without begining or end, the Most Merciful, but after some thought it should make sense when we contemplate all our surroundings. To think that it came about by chance, all this creation, is just plain silly. There has to be a drive behind it a purpose. And behind it must be an amazing being who is able to design and create it all. Look at a car, how complex it is to make. It all began with an idea, then sketches and then designs and finally manufacture. What about a space craft or a tall building, reemagnificent designs and creations.

Now look at the human body. It is a beautiful design and creation and it mustve been design by One Who knows all. Look at the stars and the galaxies, how beautifuly organiszed and designed they are. All these are signs for us, for people of understanding. Tell me Vaj, what is your theory of how the world began.

this simply demonstrates your ignorance on this subject. not only are you completely wrong, you are demonstrably wrong on this.

there are a variety of role models that a person can choose. i choose beings which demonstrate the Dharma. you can choose whatever it is that appeals to you.

But there is a universal model which even a 5 year old can follow, one that is practical and you are able to apply it to your real life. That is the prophet, peace be upon him, the best of examples and models.

nteresting definitions of the word.

i suppose, that if one is worshipping what they love, do you worship your wife or husband? you love them, right?

i think that is a poor definition of the term.

Love can be a form of worship, in its purest form. Man can love things like money, family, children, wife etc but the love that is worship is pure love which also carries the definition of total submission. To love Allah means to obey Him totally without question and to put all your trust into Him. The prophet said, "None of you will be true beleivers untill Allah and His messenger are dearer to him that his parents, children and all of mankind". The love of Allah and His messenger is total obedience to their commands.

since i disagree with this definition of the term, it should be clear why i disag with this assertion. more to the point, perhaps, is that worship is an intentional action, not a by-product, in my view.

Thats why i said worship has a deep meaning. Yes it is intentional. Do you realise that buddhism is an offshoot of hinuism?

that is correct.

however, you asked about sacrificing meat, which is much different than eating it.

In Islam, you should not kill something unless you intend to eat it. It is forbidden to kill for sport.

maybe for your body.

For all bodies. Allah created all the human bodies the same way. Your body needs protein to be strong and healthy. Infact, meat should not be an issue if a religion is true because it is only natural to eat meat.

nope, we are permitted to consume flesh should it meet certain requirements. rather like the Jewish Kosher Laws and so forth.

i, however, do not consume flesh.

individual monestaries and nunnaries are able to determine these issues for themselves depending on the needs and capacities of its' members.

What are the require ments for your slaughtering, in whose name is the meat supposed to be slaughtered.

you are not obligated to accept rebirth one way or the other.

Buddha Shakyamunis teachings are not like other beings... we are supposed to test each teaching like a goldsmith tests gold to reveal its impurities.

thus, acceptance of rebirth is predicated on ones own investigation of the teachings.

bring me proof of Heaven.

You are saying that one should blind follow into buddhism without thinking about it.

There are many proofs of heaven. For example, Allah says, "And give glad tidings to those who believe and do righteous deeds that they will have gardens (in paradise) beneath which rivers flow. Whenever they are provided with a provision of fruit therefrom, they will say, "This is what we were provided with before". And it is given to them in likeness. And they will have therein purified spouses, and they will abide therein eternally." Quran 2:25

Also, "And those who beleived and did righteous deeds will be admitted to gardens beneath which rivers flow, abiding eternally therein by permission of their Lord; and their greeting therein will be, "Peace!" Quran 14:23

But those who reject Allah will not have paradise, they will be left out. FOr example, "The example of those who disbeleive in their Lord is (that) their deeds are like ashes which the wind blows forcefully on a stormy day; they are unable (to keep) from what they earned a (single) thing. That is what is extreme error" Quran 14:18 So you see, anyone who rejects Allah, glory be to him, their works will be like ashes. Do you see the significance in this? Anyone who rejects Allah will have wasted their time on this earth.

Allah continues, "Have you not see (considered) that Allah created the heavens and the earth in truth? If He wills, He can do away with you and produce a new creation. And that is not difficult for Allah" Quran 14:19-20 Nothing is difficult for Allah. Even though we are His best creation, He can wipe us out and create something better. It is not He who needs us, He is free of all needs. It is we who need Him, for He is our Lord and sustainer and creator.

Vaj, be careful of blind following for Allah says in the Quran, "And they will come out (for judgment) before Allah all together, and the weak will say to the arrogant, "Indeed, we were your followers, so can you avail us anything against the punishment of Allah?" They will say, "If Allah had guided us, we would have guided you. It is all the same for us whether we show intolerance or are patient: there is for us no place of escape" Quran 14:21 The weak people will turn to those arrogant people who lead them astray and they will seek their help but there is no help besides the help of Allah. You will turn to this buddha who you follow and seek his help but he will not be able to help you, let alone help himself.

no, that is not what i'm saying.

Buddhas are not humans.

say it with me... Buddhas are not humans.. Buddhas are not humans...

now... having gotten that out of the way...

yes, the Gods came to Buddha and asked him to turn the Wheel of Dharma for them, as well. moreover, Buddha also went to the Gods on several occassions to teach them different aspects of the Dharma.

it is a bit complicated to explain here... and, not to put too fine a point on it, with your demonstrated inability to understand some of the basics of the view, this probably isn't going to be a productive area of conversation.

Tell me about those gods who turned to buddha, tell me their names.

it really depends on what a particular being accepts as proof, yes?

what would you accept as proof?

once you know what you will, let me know, and i'll see if i can satisify your desire.

Bring me proof of rebirth, even from yuor scriptures.

You say that buddha shakyamuni is not a human. Then what was he?


Awake!

Define awake. Did he ever walk this earth?

please explain how an inanimate object can intentionally do anything.

talk about anthropormorphism!!

Allah offered the trust to the earth, the mountains etc and they did not want the burden of taking on the truth, to worship Him. But man did take the trust. Each and every one of testified that Allah is our Lord even before we were born. When Allah created Adam, peace be upon him, Allah took out all his descendants (ie all humans) from the loins of Adam and said, "Am I not your Lord?" They (we) replied, "Yes we testify to that". Even you Vaj. This is so that you will not be able to show up on the day of Jedugemtn and deny this fact.

All objects worship Allah by obeying His Laws. The gravity is a Muslim Law, because gravity sumbits itself to Allah. When a leaf falls off a tree, it obeys muslim Laws of gravity. The sun, the moon all obey Allah. Even the shadow. All of creation obeys and worships Allah except a large number from mankind. And that is our purpose in life, to worship Allah and submit to Him.

Who created the sperm and the egg and the womb?


their mother and father.

Who created their mother and father?

"Disciples," the Buddha said "nowhere between the lowest of hells below and the highest heaven above, nowhere in all the infinite worlds that stretch right and left, is there the equal, much less the superior, of a Buddha. Incalculable is the excellence which springs from obeying the Precepts and from other virtuous conduct."

You say that there is no equal to or superior to a buddha. So are you saying that there are more superior than Allah? Are you saying that buddhas have more knowledge or power or insight than Allah? Can a buddha hear or see?

thus, no free will.

Vaj you have a free will but Allah knows everything. How you choose to yuor free will will bear consequences. If you submit it to Allah, Allah will be pleased with you.

as much as i don't believe in Allah, i have an equal amout of disbelief in any sort of "devil" or "satan" or whatever it may be termed

The devil is your enemy, he is the exact one which is trying to blind you and get you to close your eyes. He wants you to enter the hell fire by making you follow these deviant ways, will you follow him with your eyes open? He is made of fire, fire you cannot see. He is your enemy. Be warned!

[vinod]

Vaj

I used to think that muslims had the toughest time in clearing the mis-conceptions in the minds of non-muslims about islam....till I read BumbleBee.

Now, I believe it's the Buddhists. You have my sympathies.

:LMAO:

Regards

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Bumble,

thank you for the post.

Yes, it does work the brain and heart to contemplate that Allah is free of all needs and is eternal, without begining or end, the Most Merciful, but after some thought it should make sense when we contemplate all our surroundings.

i suspect that we think differently about phenomena

To think that it came about by chance, all this creation, is just plain silly.

whew! fortunately for me, i do not hold the view that things arise by chance

There has to be a drive behind it a purpose.

no, there doesn't. there could be a divine purpose but that does not mean that there is.

is the purpose of the water to perfectly fill the hole?

And behind it must be an amazing being who is able to design and create it all. Look at a car, how complex it is to make. It all began with an idea, then sketches and then designs and finally manufacture. What about a space craft or a tall building, reemagnificent designs and creations.

humans build cars, buildings and so forth. if you are asserting that a human has built the universe, then we are further apart in our discussion than i realized. in point of fact, i can go to a factory and watch humans build the car being built, i can read the blueprints and watch humans do the contstruction of a building.

hopefully, you see the problems with your analogy.

Now look at the human body. It is a beautiful design and creation and it mustve been design by One Who knows all. Look at the stars and the galaxies, how beautifuly organiszed and designed they are. All these are signs for us, for people of understanding. Tell me Vaj, what is your theory of how the world began.

which world, earth?

i have no particular issues with the modern understandings of cosmology. in particular, i favor the No Boundary Proposal coupled with the Anthropic Principle as espoused by Drs. Turok and Hawking.

But there is a universal model which even a 5 year old can follow, one that is practical and you are able to apply it to your real life. That is the prophet, peace be upon him, the best of examples and models.

have you been to Saturn?

if not, then you have no basis to make a claim of universality.

whilst you may find the Prophet to be the best example to follow, that is demonstrably not the case for me.

if you are encouraged to live a moral and ethical life by following his exmaples, i would continue to encourage you to do so.

Thats why i said worship has a deep meaning. Yes it is intentional. Do you realise that buddhism is an offshoot of hinuism?

you really think that i don't understand my tradition, don't you?

let's try a little experiment.

why don't you explain how Buddha Dharma is different than Sanatana Dharma and we'll see how you do.

For all bodies. Allah created all the human bodies the same way. Your body needs protein to be strong and healthy. Infact, meat should not be an issue if a religion is true because it is only natural to eat meat.

so you say. yet, we can read the Creation story in the Torah and see that, even in the Abrahamiac traditions, humans were created to be vegetarians. it was only after the Flood that God granted humans the permission to eat meat.

What are the require ments for your slaughtering, in whose name is the meat supposed to be slaughtered.

we don't slaughter meat. thus, there is no being to whom such non-actions are attributed or ascribed.

You are saying that one should blind follow into buddhism without thinking about it.

if you think that is the case, then you have either completely ignored what i've said or you are simply not reading the responses.

Buddha Shakyamuni has expressly instructed beings to put the teachings to the test like a goldsmith tests gold. we are not supposed to accept any teachings which we cannot verify for ourselves.

There are many proofs of heaven.

i don't want "proof". i want evidence.

you understand those are different things, yes?

Do you see the significance in this?

frankly, no.

it seems no different than any other monthiestic claims with regards to worshipping the correct deity.

You will turn to this buddha who you follow and seek his help but he will not be able to help you, let alone help himself.

why would i do this? especially since i am well aware that it is the fruit of my actions, thoughts and words which i will reap.

you continue to make all manner of wild and unfounded assertions concerning my tradition, even when i have already explained that we don't do what you think we are doing.

why you would continue in this manner is not something i can answer. it does, however, reflect upon your character.

Tell me about those gods who turned to buddha, tell me their names.

no worries.

how many of the Indian deities are you aware of?

MahaBrahma, Ishvara and the rest of the various deities. should you desire a more comprehensive list, i can probably pull something together for you.

however, i am not really all that keen to do so since you have demonstrated a remarkable ability to ignore what i say and persist in your delusion regarding my tradition.

Bring me proof of rebirth, even from yuor scriptures.

why do i have a feeling that you will ignore what i post here? eh.. let's see.

Visuddhimagga

Whosoever has no clear idea about death and does not know that death consists in the dissolution of the five groups of existence (i.e. corporeality, feeling, perception, mental formations, consciousness), he thinks that it is a person, or being, that dies and transmigrates to a new body, etc. And whosoever has no clear idea about rebirth, and does not know that rebirth consists in the arising of the five groups of existence, he thinks that it is a person, or being, that is reborn, or that the person reappears in a new body. And whosoever has no clear idea about Samsara, the round of rebirths, he thinks that a real person wanders from this world to another world, comes from that world to this world, etc. And whosoever has no clear idea about the phenomena of existence, he thinks that the phenomena are his ego or something appertaining to the ego, or something permanent, joyful, or pleasant. And whosoever has no clear idea about the conditional arising of the phenomena of existence, and about the arising of kammic volitions conditioned through ignorance, he thinks that it is the ego that understands or fails to understand, that acts or causes to act, that enters into a new existence at rebirth. Or he thinks that the atoms or the Creator, etc., with the help of the embryonic process, shape the body, provide it with various faculties; that it is the ego that receives the sensuous impression, that feels, that desires, that becomes attached, that enters into existence again in another world. Or he thinks that all beings come to life through fate or chance.

A mere phenomenon it is, a thing conditioned,
That rises in the following existence.
But not from a previous life does it transmigrate there,
And yet it cannot rise without a previous cause.

When this conditionally arisen bodily-mental phenomenon (the fetus) arises, one says that it has entered into (the next) existence. However, no being (satta), or life-principle (jiva), has transmigrated from the previous existence into this existence, and yet this embryo could not have come into existence without a previous cause.

the interested reader is directed here for more information:

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon...n-135-tb0.html

Allah offered the trust to the earth, the mountains etc and they did not want the burden of taking on the truth, to worship Him.

do you really believe that mountains are sentient beings? how utterly strange and unusal in a monotheistic tradition as this aspect is more commonly found amongst nature-oriented Shaman traditions.

But man did take the trust. Each and every one of testified that Allah is our Lord even before we were born. When Allah created Adam, peace be upon him, Allah took out all his descendants (ie all humans) from the loins of Adam and said, "Am I not your Lord?" They (we) replied, "Yes we testify to that". Even you Vaj. This is so that you will not be able to show up on the day of Jedugemtn and deny this fact.

so... something which i have no cognition of is something upon which my judgement is based?

if so, there goes your free will argument.

in any event, since i don't beleive that all humans came from Adam and Eve (the genetic issues alone show how fallacious this notion is) i don't have any real concern in this regard.

All objects worship Allah by obeying His Laws. The gravity is a Muslim Law, because gravity sumbits itself to Allah. When a leaf falls off a tree, it obeys muslim Laws of gravity. The sun, the moon all obey Allah. Even the shadow. All of creation obeys and worships Allah except a large number from mankind. And that is our purpose in life, to worship Allah and submit to Him.

oh, now that is rich! indeed... "gravity is a Muslim law"! sorry... that's just plain silly!

which theory of gravity is the Muslim law, oh Bumble? what will you do when that theory is falsified? simply shift the goalposts to the next theory?

Who created their mother and father?

their mother and father and so on. why, who do you think created your parents?

You say that there is no equal to or superior to a buddha. So are you saying that there are more superior than Allah? Are you saying that buddhas have more knowledge or power or insight than Allah? Can a buddha hear or see?

that is correct.

Buddhas hear, see, understand and have compassion for all sentient beings throughout the multiverse, hence, the Turning of the Wheel of Dharma.

Vaj you have a free will but Allah knows everything.

regardless of how often you say this it still isn't correct.

you are more than welcome to hold a belief in freewill, regardless of how the concept is presented. i, however, shall ascribe to no such thing.

The devil is your enemy, he is the exact one which is trying to blind you and get you to close your eyes.

actually, the devil is your enemy, not mine

we don't have such a thing in our teachings. perhaps the closest thing that we could have would be Maya, or Delusion.

if there is a devil, he is in the same situation as all the deities and sentient beings are.. bound by karma and will take rebirth when the karmic energy is expended for this current arising.

He wants you to enter the hell fire by making you follow these deviant ways, will you follow him with your eyes open?

no need to, Kurkulla is already there working for the benefit of those beings.

He is made of fire, fire you cannot see. He is your enemy. Be warned!

fire i cannot see.... i see... well... does it show up on infrared detectors? or is this a "heatless" fire as well? invisible, heatless fire...

hey! that sounds just like the Dragon in my garage! wanna see?



metta,

~v

[Vajradhara]

Vaj

I used to think that muslims had the toughest time in clearing the mis-conceptions in the minds of non-muslims about islam....till I read BumbleBee.

Now, I believe it's the Buddhists. You have my sympathies.

:LMAO:

Regards

Salaam Vinod,

i suspect that it may simply be my lack of ability to communicate... however..

not to put too fine a point on it, but, beings are not all the same... we are each possessed of different capacities for things, as such, it does not surprise me that Bumble is having issue understanding.

of course, we must be clear that education is a comittment to learn and not something which can be imposed from the outside in... in my view at any rate


Muslims, i am sure, have their own difficult issues to explain...

if Bumble is correct... how to explain that mountains are sentient is, in my view, quite a difficult task!

perhaps... that is one of the common features of religious thought... one either "gets it" or one does not?

metta,

~v

[islamrocks5207]

I think the purpose of creation is a great thing to make a powerpoint on and I agree to some poeple