Searching for a greatest purpose for creation.

[Ratatosk]

Salam BumbleBee,

It may have escaped you, but our friend Vajradhara adhers to the buddhist school of thought. You might be aware that the buddhist tradition is not a theistic tradition, no? In other words, in a theistic religious sense the buddhistic school of thought is silent on the issue of deities, ie gods. If gods are adressed in any fashion, I believe the school of thought holds it that gods are, too, governed by the same principle of karmic fate that all other sentient beings are.

The four things that our esteemed Vaj was refering to are the four thoughts that turn the mind. These are, more or less, mental tools that focuses the mind on the Dharma, meaning (within a buddhistic framework) the plethora of mechanisms that govern our conditioned existence. That's what the "turn the mind" stuff's all about.

In short the four thoughts are (somewhat simplified): appreciating the wonder of the (hard to attain) human existence, remembering the inpermanence of our fleeting existence, focusing the mind on the karmic causality, and lastly, denouncing the samsara (meaning more or less 'random rebirth', void of control). Oversimplified; by utilizing these tools the adherent makes it possible for the being to escape the cycle of uncontrolled rebirth. As stated, these are very crude approximations.

Predictably, Vaj can of course expound on these concepts and rectify any blatant errors and misunderstandings that I -- due to my shallow understanding -- may have regarding these matters.

Regards,

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Lamp of Light,

sorry for the tardy response, the forum hasn't be playing nicely with me recently

All things are basically subjective to the truth as we perceive it to be, and that is what constitues the bulk our acknowledged reality.

really... no more need be said than this. you agree with me that truth is subjective to the perceptions of the being experiencing said truth. as such, truth cannot be anything other than subjective.

We also have instruments of measure that quantify for us and help us establish truth. Before we go to much farther, I have to set somthing straight with you. You are basically asking me to prove God to you, and I simply cannot prove God to you. If I could prove God to you, then I would probably be the most famous person in the history of the world! hehe.

without question this would be so. however, i'm not asking to have you prove G!D exists unless you are defining G!D as Absolute Truth, which you are, seemingly doing. if this is the case, then i would require solid evidence for your conclusion so that i could duly consider it as well.

Besides, God isn't ever goign to let that happen, because He desires your love in spirit and in truth.

i confess that the anthropormorphic ideas found within the Abrahamic traditions is somewhat strange to me.

I am telling you that for whatever inexplicable reason God let me perceive the truth of the matter, His existance, and affirmed to me that He is a living God, and a sentient omnipresent being.

please understand... i'm not questioning that you had a religious experience. as i have said many times, it is my veiw that sentient beings are, ultimately, fulfilled by engaging in a spiritual path.

Absoltue truth is the ultimate reality, and I am telling you I am convinced wihtout doubt(affirmed by experience and scriptures)that it is God.

oh, i'm aware of your position on this matter

I have tried to demonstrate the correlation to your understanding. I know it seems impossible to conceive or perceive, or likely to understand, but I am quite convinced of it.

God is a spiritual life form like no other, that we cannot fully comprehend, and yet, we can know Him.

I hope I have not bored you to death. You are probably sleeping by now LOL. I guess I better finish my reply.

not at all

The very fact that you acknowledge cause and effect serves to establish that there must have been an initial cause somewhere along the line. correct ?

this would be the case if we held to a linear concept of time, however, we don't. we actually view time as cyclic, as such, our idea of cause and effect is a bit different than what is typically found expressed in Greek thought. our understanding of cause and effect is predicated upon a teaching which we call "Interdependent Co-Arising" which basically means that each phenomena or noumena arises in the universe because of and in dependence on, other phenomena. however, there is no initial "cause" as these things arise in mutual dependence upon each other... there is no "first" in the sequence, as it were.

I would call such an ultimate orginal or initial cause... God.

naturally

Logic reveals it to be absolute truth.

perhaps your logic does, mine does not

I would likewise point out to you that your belief in cause and effect, entirely demonstrates that you acknowledge and believe in absoltue truth, even despite arguing against it. Believing everything is resulting from cause and effect is to believe in an absolute truth.

really? is cause and effect an "absolute" truth? i know of instances where such things do not apply. how can cause and effect be absolute if there are cases where it doesn't hold?

The truth of it is as I have been telling you. That "cause and effect" has to have a point of origin or an original cause, that is what we would call God, and my witness/testimony is that He is a living sentient God, full of lovingkindness. The truth reveals loving kindness.

actually, no it doesn't though i suspect that may depend on how you understand the idea of cause and effect. since Buddhism teaches Interedependent Co-Arising, there is no "first" cause in our view.

They are by their nature of existance spiritual, since they are immaterial conceptions or perceptions. That doesn't however mean they are, or require them to be, spirits or sentient beings.

we have very different ideas about what ideas are i wouldn't conclude that they are spiritual in the least, merely by products of the thinking process. however, i shant quibble on this point much as i was simply curious about your view.

It is hard to conceive such a thing quite actually, and that is basically what I am askign you to do in regards to the Absolute Truth, even though that isn't actually what I was doing when I realized it. hehe. I must tell you , I am also convinced the Lord God has a tremendous sense of humor.

oh, i can imagine a state wherein something like Absolute Truth, as it's been defined, exists... i just don't happen to think such a place exists

I must point out that I am not really the one who defines truth as "reality; actuality or actual existance", that is a dictionary definition, and although it is the principle understanding being conveyed here regarding logic, we know my understanding of truth really goes beyond that.. to Truth with a capitol "T", and that is the whole basis for my presenting these evidences to you.

fair enough. dictonaries are useful if somewhat limited.

They are often circular reasonings, but does that necessarily make them correct or incorrect ?

it makes them circular. why cannot circular reasonings be used in such a discourse regarding proof?

So in other words, you really have no argument at all, you are just in a state of denial and refusing to believe in the existance of the abstract entity we call "absolute truth".

my argument is simply a negation of the positive argument whilst not positively asserting any view of my own. this is part and parcel of the Madhyamika school, in particular, the Prasangika.

i regularly stray from my schools philosophical grounding, but that is my own issue to work out.

logical propositions are not necessarily proof, but they can surely lead us to find the evidence and understanding.

i'm not asking for proof. i'm asking for evidence.

As a matter of fact, I would propose that alot of knowledge and understanding , even truths, are realized through logical propositions subsequently leading to theorizing and then observation and testing(when possible).

so... what test could we do to determine if such a thing as "absolute truth" exists? how could we falsify such an idea?

As to the evidence for the existance of absolute truth, I should have demonstrated to you by now that such an entity exists,

well... i don't know about "should have", though i would be happy for you to do so.

and that you actually do acknowledge and operate based upon it(even if not consciously aware of it or willing to admit it....and this is despite whether or not we agree the absolute truth is ultimately a living sentient being).

ultimately, if i reject your point of view it is because i am stubborn, yes? unwilling to admit that my world view is predicated upon an Absolute Truth even though my religion teaches that such a thing does not exist. that is a strange thing, wouldn't you think? to adhere to a religon which teaches that Absolute Truth doesn't exist, yet, still behaving as if it did.

i try to have a bit more integrity than this in my daily practice. whilst i may not be all that successful at this endeavor, it is a mistake to think that i am operating with the same basic paradigm as one finds expressed in the Abrahamaic faiths.

I don't really have a problem with your perception of truth being what it is. Quite frankly, it seems correct for the most part(to my perception), and thus it should be ultimately leading you to realize in the end, exactly what I have been telling you all along.

perhaps, you should consider that your view is incorrect in this regard and you should consider the implications of what i'm proposing?

I think it is wonderful, quite honestly, that you acknowledge other things besides our own ego projection can exist in this universe.

i'd be a lousier Buddhist than i already am if i didn't do that!

YOu also have indicated that you believe in cause and effect.

correct, within the universe and with regards to classical physics.

SO you therefore obviously believe in the possibility that there is some other thing out there, which could have possibly caused many effects.

no, this isn't what my view is at all.

Specifically, your current belief affords you the possibility that there actually is a prime cause, or thing, specifically God.

actually, no it does not. we don't veiw these things in the same manner. cause and effect is a mutually arising phenomena, not requiring an initial cause.

The real question becomes why you don't acknowledge that you have this possibility ? Instead you choose to profess a belief to the opposite(no God), despite acknowledging the possibility that there is by your very own stated beliefs ?

mostly, it is because you do not have an accurate understanding of the Buddhist view that you feel this way.

we specfically teach that there is no "first" cause for the cause and effect phenomena. these two things arise in mutual dependence upon each other.

I object that your reply is not reasonable. Re-read what you said below, with my emphasis for point of note:

you replied:
....it is evidence that we both agree that these letters, symbols, represent something external to our consciousness, which can be described to other beings by mutual agreement on the meaning of the symbols. not, however, that our symbol structure maps directly onto reality as we experience it.

You are acknowledging the existance of an entity(entities) that exist external to our consciousness and that we can convey meaning accordingly without experiencing said entities.

mostly correct. i wouldn't say that we can convey meaning without experienceing the experience, however.

You continue to say that it is NOT that our symbol maps directly onto reality as we experience it. I am not absolutely positive what you mean by that.

what i mean to be saying is that our words do not shape reality. reality is what it is and our words, mutually agreed upon, represent aspects of said reality. i also mean to be saying that our words, mutally agreed upon, do not even, necessairly, reflect an accurate picture of reality in the first place.

I am not really concerned with the causes of mental illness in regards to our discussion. I made the statement merely to drive the point that people who are not acknowledging reality are generalized as people we basically consider to be mentally ill to some degree or measure. They are not "whole" or "well".

therein lies the rub, doesn't it? how can we know who's perception of reality is more accurate?

Which all serves once again to point to the fact that there is an initial cause or truth.

it seems that you are conflating the terms "truth" and "cause". this isn't very accurate, in my view.

This is true, but such a belief once again must lead you to consider the reality of an initial cause. Such a cause and effect belief can only serve to establish and point in the direction of an initial cause, an absolute truth, namely, God.

that would be true if one didn't have an understanding of Interdependent Co-Arising, which i do. thus, i do not reach the same conclusions that you do when looking at the same information.

As I said to you earlier, everythign is subject to the truth. Your subjective truth is what you perceived to be the truth.

precisely. it is subjective, not objective.

Hence your subjective truth is subject to perceived/experienced/reasoned truth. In other words, if the real truth were made known to you, then you would become subject to it, because then you would have perceived/experienced/known the real truth. Your truth is a subjective truth because of what you perceived/experienced it to be, but you must understand that your perception/experience is entirely subject to the real truth if you could perceive it or experience it or know it.

this is terribly convoluted and i don't really know what you are trying to say here. could you reprhase?

Such a fact is evidenced in science in that we change our theories , etc, in order to come into alignment with what we perceive to be the actual or real truth.

no, this is not correct. we change our theories in science because they have been falsified by new evidence, not because of any sort of truth claim.

So your truth would become your new subjective truth, and since it would be subject to the real truth, your truth would be the real truth. All things are subject to truth, but not all things(specifically people) subject themselves to the real truth(specifically, the ultimate reality or being, the absolute truth, God).

again, i have no idea what you are really trying to say here.

it sounds like you are saying that my subjective understanding of reality will become an objective understanding of reality simply because i hold the view. this is not how it works, in my understanding.

Well our worldviews are not that dissimiliar really. I mean i can agree that things don't exist in the manner in which beings think they do. However, in regards to Truth, we are goign to have to disagree.

then, indeed, they are very dissimiliar.

We would cease to have the ability to communicate via this forum because we would not have established the truth in regards to what the symbols actually mean, so that we could comprehend each other.

we aren't establishing the "truth" of our symbol set, we are establishing the "value" that our symbols represent. it is a definition of information, not a consideration of the accuracy of said information.

Without establishing the true meanign of the symbols, (recognized truths) we couldn't communicate. Truth must be established, in this specific incident it is
the meaning of symbols, or we cannot even communicate. Once again the meaning of the symbols are entirely dependent upon affirming the existance of that omnipresent abstract entity...truth.

clearly, i disagree. i think that, during this discussion, your use of the term "truth" is wide and varied and seemingly out of place in several instances. the meaning of symbols is entirely dependent on the value that humans assign to them and the ability of other humans to recognize and understand the symbol set.

One must weigh it all out and choose for themselves in the end. I cannot make you believe anything. What we believe is by choice, and a demonstration of our faith.

i don't actually believe that what we choose to believe is a choice. could you suddenly choose to believe the moon is made from green cheese? it is my view that we believe what we have been pursuaded to believe, through a variety of methods.

And that is the whole point I was exactly making.

if you were, then you would hold my view. since you don't, you weren't

That you are acknowledging reaping of positive and negative karma thereby requires a mechanism that is an absolute truth in nature.

the closest thing that karma establishes as an 'absolute' truth is cause and effect. what mechanism is required or evidenced?

Otherwise murdering and killing innocent people would be just as apt to generate positive karma as negative, and being kind and loving would be just as apt to generate negative karama as positive regardless of circumstances.

no, this is not correct. killing of sentient beings is unskillful, being compassionate and loving is skillful. unskillful actions produce results which are unskillful, we call them negative. skillful actions produce skillful results, which we call positive.

There would be no reason for you to make the comment you did regarding it, or that you profess to believe, if there wasn't an absolute truth involved.

sure there would and it has nothing to do with absolute truth. heck, before we get all caught up in positive and negative karma... i should tell you that a being can also produce neutral karma

If there wasn';t an absolute truth involved, there would be no rhyme or reason to karma, it woudl be entirely random and meangingless to take any specific course of action.

again, if you want to define cause and effect as Absolute Truth, i won't stop you. that is not, however, the view which i hold nor is it supported in the Buddha Dharma.

The very fact you acknowledge this truth, is proof that you acknowledge and operate subject to absolute truth. The absolute truth in this case is that there is positive and negative karma asociated to specific actions or behavior.

however, it is not absolutely true that this happens. sentient beings can mitigate the karma they are reaping. moreover, a being can produce neutral karma as well, most beings do not, however, thus we talk about positive and negative repercussions of our actions, thoughts and words.

I cannot prove God to you.

nor have i asked you to. i have asked, however, if you have evidence that you bring it forth for my consideration.

Neither would you ever be able to prove God didn't exist, although you are surely welcome to try.

well... since i know that one cannot prove a negative, this would be sheer foolishness on my part

Absolute truth is the final destination of the realization of what is truth. Specifically it is God. The original cause, or the ultimate reality or being. All truths(subjective/ percieved/ experienced/ etc) are all likewise ultimately subject to the absolute truth. Absolute truth is basically defined as an unchanging inflexible reality.

this is what i reject. more to the point, i cannot find any phenomena or noumena within the universe which is unchanging. ever object is continually undergoing change, our universe is one very dynamic place.. even though the time scales are hard for humans to really understand, in my view.

I think I have made it very evident that it does support the existance of absolute truth entirely, and not only that, but the mechanism you believe in establishes that morality is absolute.

what mechanism?

if morality is absolute, then why does my religion teach it as otherwise, especially when you indicate that this is my belief? why would i adhere to a religious path which i didn't believe? that doesn't make a whole lot of sense to my way of thinking.

cause and effect doesn't make a value judgement regarding morality in the least, let alone demonstrating that it is absolute in any manner whatsoever.

Otherwise you would not believe in good(skillful) and bad(unskilled) karma at all.

i wouldn't? why wouldn't i? why would i simply ignore what Buddha Shakyamuni teaches about this?

The very existance of karma is established by Gods truthful word.

such is one view, a common enough one in Buddha Shakyamunis day, for that matter. it is not, however, correct.

please understand that the Buddhist view of karma is different than the Hindu view and has very different ramifications as a result.

It is because of Gods unchanging nature of absolute truth that karma is able to function.

not at all. karma is simply cause and effect as experiened in our mindstream.

Gods word establishes the recognized moral baseline by which your karma operates and enables you to make that distinction.

quite far from it, actually. my morality is dictated by my own view and understanding and, as such, is constantly undergoing change and refinement as my experiences continue to flow on.

Gods word is truth. Neither woudl I desire to end karma any more then Iwould desire to end the truth of Gods word.

then i would submit that you do not have a proper understanding of karma, for it is karma which is the primary cause of our continued rebirths, our birth, old age, sickness and death. you can, however, put an end to those things.

metta,

~v

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Bumblebee,

thank you for the post.

Although logical proofs do provide evidence, let me say that we are being tested on this earth. And apart of this test is to see whether or not you have Faith. Faith means to beleive in something you have never seen.

what sort of evidence does a logical proof provide?

Well in reality, Absolute Truth does exist, for example that there is a God and He has divine attributes and only He is worthy of being worshipped and that there are no gods besides Him. This is an Absolute Truth.

i am aware that this is the mainstream Muslim view on this matter.

But that is not up to me to prove it to you. I can only pass on the mesage that faith means you beleive in something which you have never seen before. For example, if Allah were to show you an angel, or something of the unseen, that would defeat the purpose of faith.

i'm well aware of the concept behind faith, especially as formulated in the later Abrahamaic traditions. whilst i agree that one doesn't have to see verything to believe it, it seems quite strange to me to believe in something without evidence of its existence.

Because faith means you beleive in the unseen, you see?

i understand the concept, i find it unsatisfactory for my own spiritual progress. my tradition teaches that one shouldn't believe any of the teachings unless they can verify it for themselves. whilst the verification may take quite a few different forms, we are not called to believe anything on faith.

Allah, glory be to Him, has chosen who He will accept as a beleiver, and the rest of the people have a seal on their hearts and ears and a veil on their eyes. So i pray to Allah that He remove the seal and the veil from your eyes so that you may be of one of the beleivers. Again, to beleive in something you have never seen before is Faith.

well, if this is true, then i shall cease to worry about it... Allah will remove the veil when the time is right, not due to my efforts.

Now, as a Muslim, i beleive that God has sent to mankind prophets and messengers to show us what to do. These prophets and messengers are vital for our existence.

ok. i have no particular issues with your belief.

A role model is vital for a child, so that they grow up with certain goals in mind, a certain attitude.

suffice it to say that our views of child rearing are also different

[qutoe]
Now i have never personally seen the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, but i know that he has told us to beleive in God and to pray to God 5 times a day. And, insha-Allah, as a result, i hope to win Allah's Mercy and win paradise. The same way you reward a child for down something good, we seek a reward from Allah for our service to Him.
[/quote]

is your child trying to "win" your approval? this is a strange concept... winning your way to heaven or paradise or whathave you. this doesn't seem to be consistent with the idea that Allah will reward whom He chooses.

It is we who need to worship Him. He is free from all needs, you see? It is for our own benefit to turn to Him and ask Him for guidance, forgiveness and bounty.

er.. no?

Now, you have heard the message: beleive in Allah, follow the prophet, pray your 5 daily prayers and you will enter paradise. Simple.

oh yes, i've heard it quite often before. you know i grew up in North Africa, yes?

It is up to you if you decide to accept it or reject it.

indeed, this is so. well... unless you believe that Allah has set a seal upon my heart or however it is phrased.

But why not take the first step, experiment for once. Try this, ask Allah for guidance, ask Him to open your heart to the truth. Why not?

why would i do this? Deities are in the same situation that we are in, how can they help me? more specifically, how can they help me mitigate the consequences of my own actions? the Christians claim that Jesus took the consequences of my actions, all of our actions, upon himself at Calvary.

once upon a time, i took refuge in the Islamic tradition. the practice didn't fulfill my spiritual needs and thus, i have taken refuge in a tradition which does.

Paradise is the ultimate abode for any human being.

i'm not all that interested in such things.

You do not grow old, or get bone problems, or join problems, nor do you go to the toilet, nor do you get injured permanantly. Paradise is the eternal abode for those who grab on to the hand hold of Allah and dont let go.

indeed, many deities offer rebirth in their realm to entice beings to worship them. i, however, have no desire to take rebirth in a heavenly realm. should i be reborn, it will be as a human (if i have any control over it... and, i do! ) or as an Asura, a Dharma Protector.

In paradise is the time to ask as much questions you want, ask Allah anything. This earth is not the time to stumble and waste time, you are only here for a limited amount of time, so dont waste it!

this is the only rebirth that will be like this, as such, i must ask my questions now for this Skandha will not exist again.

Have you ever read up on the prophet Muhamamd's life?

yes.

Do you know what kind of person he is?

no. i only know hearsay information about him.

Why not try that?

try what?

Learn who he was, learn what kind of person he was, what kind of things he did, what kind of people he loved to be with. Knowledge combats ignorance.

Wisdom dispells ignorance, in our view.

all things being equal, i don't have as much time to spend on Islamic studies as i do for my own practice. as such, particulars of the Prophets behavior are not all that germane to my investigation of Islam, per se.

It is not up to me or anyone else to bring to you on a plate all the answers.

nor could you, even if you wanted to.

You must take that first step. And the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him said that if you take a step towards Allah, He will take 10 steps towards you. And if you go to Him walking, He will come to you running!

interesting.

I only ask you to gain knowledge thats all.

though i do have a fairly serious academic bent, i'm not as interested in gaining knowledge as i am in gaining wisdom and compassion.

Gain the correct knowledge, learn the truth, and you will see that Allah will open your heart to the truth, if you sincerely want it.

naturally i could, of course, make the same statement to you learn the truth and you will realize that the Dharma is the only way to liberation

You, Vaj, say that you share no views that there is no god besides Allah, and that He alone is worthy of all worship. And that Allah is the Most Gracious Most Merciful, the Master of the Day of Judgement. Then if you dont mind me asking, what views do you have?

i have little in the way of theistic views, now that you ask. if you want to know something specific, please feel free to ask.

Vaj, you say that you dont worship anything. In that case, at least that is a good thing since you do not worship any statues or idols because worshipping statues or idols will lead you directly into the bottom of hell fire.

that's correct, no worship of anything or any being.

Let me ask you, what is it that you love the most? Out of everything in this world, anything at all, what do you love the most?

good question. i suppose that if i had to choose one thing to say that i love, i would say Compassion, in all its varied forms.

equally, in my view, is Wisdom. my tradition places emphasis on both aspects of consciousness during our practice.

Yes, all compounded things will decay back into their constituent parts, but when the body dies, what happens to the spirit?

what spirit? do you mean something like a soul?

Imagine that if death was the end, then this life has no purpose.

i can imagine that, but i don't hold that view.

But dont you beleive at least in Justice? Justice is real, yeah?

justice, in practice, is all too often simply revenge. though, in theory, such a thing may exist.

Then what about those people who pray, or give charity. They want a reward of some sort for doing these good deeds.

oh.. they should change their motivation in this regard. giving charity with the idea of getting a reward isn't all that altrusitic, in my view.

The reality is, Vaj that in this world, there are good people and there are bad people and justice is something we should strive to uphold. No doubt.

whilst i would agree, in theory... in practice, that is not often how it works.

Now what happens to all your deeds in this life?

karma. the consequences of your actions condition the next arising.

It is only logical that good people should be rewarded and bad people punished. And one thing is absolutely true: that worship of anything besides Allah is contrary to what we have been created for. It is only God alone who deserves to be worshipped.

well... good... no worship on my behalf, at the very least

Let me ask you, Vaj, what are the four things which turn the mind?

as my dear Ratatosk as said... they are thoughts which turn the mind. they are turning the mind from the delusion of samsara. Ratatosk has done a fair job of explaining what those are. if you'd like for me to go into more detail, then i'd be happy to elaborate on them abit.

What is your idea of constructive?

working towards the liberation and freedom of all sentient beings.

metta,

~v

[BumbleBee]

Vaj, Vaj, Vaj.

You said, "what sort of evidence does a logical proof provide? " Well let me point out to you a mircale. A miracle much bigger than the parting of the sea for Moses, peace be upon him. A miracle much bigger than the miracle of Noah, peace be upon him, of how the great Ark survived the mountian high waves of the flood. A miracle much more miraculous than Jesus, peace be upon, healing the born blind, the lepers and raising up of the dead.

This miracle is nothing other than the Noble Qur'an. Yes, it is the miracle of today. Why? Because none other than Allah can ever produce such a miracle of a book. The challenge is even in the Quran, if you doubt as to its genuiness, then produce a chapter like it. Even the great poets and learned people of Mekkah were not able to meet this challenge. And these were people extremely fluent in the arabic language! Their language skills were unparralelled yet they had no success in producing a chapter like that of the Quran!

For example, Allah says in the Quran, "Indeed, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and the alteration of the night and day are signs for those of understanding- who remember Allah while standing or sitting or (lying) down on their sides and give thought to the creation of the heavens and the earth, (saying), "Our Lord, You did not create this aimlessly; exalted are you (above such a thing); then protect us from the punishment of the Fire" The Quran 3:190,191.

If you want evidence, explore the Quran, it is the literal word of God, it was not written by any human and not even a dot has been changed since it was revealed 1400 years ago, you can be assured of that. Now why is the Qur'an such a miracle. Well, one aspect of its miraculous occurance, is that the Quran has in it scientific proofs which were revealed to the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, 1400 years ago. For example, the Quran explains in detail how the baby develops in the mothers stomach, step by step. How could the prophet, peace be upon him, an uneducated man of Arabia, have such knowledge? And there are heaps of scientific proofs which were revealed in the Quran 1400, scientific proofs which are only being discovered in the last 50 years! because scientists have only just created powerful equipment capable of proving the claims of the Quran.

Another example is that Allah says in the Quran that the heavens and the earth were one and that He seperated them and created from water all living things. So all living things have been created by Allah from water. And scientists have recently confirmed this fact. So if you want evidence, its all in the Quran. More examples of this are that the Quran says that in the oceans, there is a barrier between the salty water and the non salty water, the Quran says that the mountains are as pegs thus stabilizing the earth etc etc. And sceintists are recently discovering these facts.

Vaj, you said, "i'm well aware of the concept behind faith, especially as formulated in the later Abrahamaic traditions. whilst i agree that one doesn't have to see verything to believe it, it seems quite strange to me to believe in something without evidence of its existence." Ok, there are two evidences in the existence of Allah. One is the Noble Quran, which is a miracle in itself, and the other is the perfect character and lifestyle of the prophet Muhamamd, peace be upon him. He was one who fed the poor, visited the sick, kept good relations with kith and kin, fulfilled the rights of the orphans, widows and elders. He fulfilled his obligations to our Lord Allah, Most High, to the fullest.

Him and his companions were beautiful examples of Allah's work in creation. The best of all human being and the best of all creation Muhammad, peace be upon him. So if you havent read up on his life, you are depriving yourself of evidence!

Vaj you said, "i understand the concept, i find it unsatisfactory for my own spiritual progress. my tradition teaches that one shouldn't believe any of the teachings unless they can verify it for themselves. whilst the verification may take quite a few different forms, we are not called to believe anything on faith."

To this i say that every baby, every child is born on the Fitrah, the natural inclination to beleive in and worship Allah, its in our nature, as imprinted in us by Allah, Most Glorious. So naturally, each and every baby is born a Muslim, one who submits to Allah. It is the parents who turn the pure child into a jew or a christain or a fire worshipper. It is your birthright to be Muslim, Vaj. To worship anything besides Allah is contrary to what you have been created for. It is sad, yes, but we should claim our birth right and bring ourselves back in tune with the Will of the All-Mighty, it is the only path to success.

You said, "well, if this is true, then i shall cease to worry about it... Allah will remove the veil when the time is right, not due to my efforts." This passive attitude will only bring destruction. It takes effort. In the least, dont delibrately close your eyes once you see the truth. Dont do as the pagans of Mekkah did, they shoved their fingers in their ears and covered themselves up with their garments and closed tight their eyes. Those who reject Allah in this life will be rejected in the Hereafter. That is a sad case.

You said, "

why would i do this? Deities are in the same situation that we are in, how can they help me? more specifically, how can they help me mitigate the consequences of my own actions? the Christians claim that Jesus took the consequences of my actions, all of our actions, upon himself at Calvary.

once upon a time, i took refuge in the Islamic tradition. the practice didn't fulfill my spiritual needs and thus, i have taken refuge in a tradition which does.

"

"Deities"? There is no plural in deity. It is Allah alone who is the One Deity, there are none other than Him and one thing is for sure, He is not in the same situation as you. He is above all things and all matters are refered to Him. Allah can help you because He is the One who created you in the first place. He knows you better than you know yourself. He is closer to you than your own jugular vein! You say that you took refuge in Islam, did you ever learn how to pray? That is our main connection with our Lord, it improves the relationship between us and our creator. Bhuddism can in no way fulfil your spiritual needs. Bhuddism is a form of oppression, it tells you not to get married or eat meat. That is self oppression.

indeed, many deities offer rebirth in their realm to entice beings to worship them. i, however, have no desire to take rebirth in a heavenly realm. should i be reborn, it will be as a human (if i have any control over it... and, i do! ) or as an Asura, a Dharma Protector.

You have no interest in paradise? In paradise, there are things you have never seen, things you have never heard and things which you have never imagined. It is the ultimate abode. It is better than this world by thousands of degrees. You get married to beautiful women, there are rivers of milk, honey, pure water and wine. You dont go to the toilet, or get sick, or old. Allah has promised this for those who have faith and work righteous deeds.

though i do have a fairly serious academic bent, i'm not as interested in gaining knowledge as i am in gaining wisdom and compassion.

You say you want to gain wisdom and compassion. Well if you sincerely want to gain these things, have a read of the lives of the prophets. They are the most wise of all and they are the most compassionate. For example, prophet Moses, peace be upon him, met one of the servants of Allah named Green. And he learnt wisdom from him. It is in the Quran, chapter 18:62-82, if you want to gain wisdom then do yourself justice and have a read of the interaction between Moses, peace be upon him and the servant Green.

indeed, many deities offer rebirth in their realm to entice beings to worship them. i, however, have no desire to take rebirth in a heavenly realm. should i be reborn, it will be as a human (if i have any control over it... and, i do! ) or as an Asura, a Dharma Protector.

In paradise, you will be a human, but the environment will be beautiful and much more better than this earth. But let me warn you, to deny the existence of Allah is itself a form of Shirk and paradise is forbidden to anyone who commits Shirk. Yes, it is good to talk about heaven but dont forget that hell fire is real. Do you know what the first question you will be asked about on the Day of Judgement? You will be asked, where are your 5 daily prayers? If you do not have your 5 daily prayers, then you will not enter paradise. Hellfire is real. Those reject Allah will not be happy on the Day of Judgement, i can tell you that. Simply because He created us and provides for us and sustains us and he has made subject to us all of creation yet there are some of turn away.

naturally i could, of course, make the same statement to you learn the truth and you will realize that the Dharma is the only way to liberation

Im inviting you to paradise, and you want to invite me to something else? What practical steps can you take to liberation if you reject God? What is your definitiion of liberation? Just denying yourself this world and secluding yourself away from the trials of this world? That is not liberation, it is denial of reality.

If you were to read up on some of the prophets like Abahram, Moses, Jesus and Muhamamd, peace be upon them, you will gain the wisdom and compassion you are searching for. Do not waste your time in mazes of error.

working towards the liberation and freedom of all sentient beings.

What do you mean by liberation and freedom?

[Lamp Of Light]

May Peace and Truth be with us always !!!


I have to apologize Vaj. I have been very busy with assorted other things and have been unable to make it over here to continue our conversation. I will try and catch up today, but I can't promise anything. I just wanted to at least pop in before work and let you know I havn't wondered away and forgotten hehe

May your day be filled with joy and peace !!

[Vajradhara]

Namatse Bumblebee,

thank you for the post.

This miracle is nothing other than the Noble Qur'an. Yes, it is the miracle of today.

i am aware of this particular Muslim claim though i do not share it.

Why? Because none other than Allah can ever produce such a miracle of a book. The challenge is even in the Quran, if you doubt as to its genuiness, then produce a chapter like it.

this has been discussed on this forum before and it doesn't mean what you are intimating that it means here.

Even the great poets and learned people of Mekkah were not able to meet this challenge. And these were people extremely fluent in the arabic language! Their language skills were unparralelled yet they had no success in producing a chapter like that of the Quran!

yet, they didn't speak Sanskrit.

i shall simply say that i agree with the mainstream Understanding Islam view that this challenge isn't directed to me, in particular, or modern beings in general.

If you want evidence, explore the Quran, it is the literal word of God, it was not written by any human and not even a dot has been changed since it was revealed 1400 years ago, you can be assured of that.

if this is your view then i would encourage you to do some investigate concerning Uthman and the destruction of Al Qur'an.

thus, i cannot accept the standard apolegetic in this manner. naturally, my tradition emphasizes something other than the texts... so perhaps this is influencing my view.

Now why is the Qur'an such a miracle. Well, one aspect of its miraculous occurance, is that the Quran has in it scientific proofs which were revealed to the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, 1400 years ago.

sorry, my friend, Al Qur'an is not a science book. i've heard the science apolegetic quite a bit and i find it lacking in several salient ways. that, of course, shouldn't be of much concern for a religious text, in my view.

For example, the Quran explains in detail how the baby develops in the mothers stomach, step by step. How could the prophet, peace be upon him, an uneducated man of Arabia, have such knowledge?

argument from incredulity.

Another example is that Allah says in the Quran that the heavens and the earth were one and that He seperated them and created from water all living things. So all living things have been created by Allah from water. And scientists have recently confirmed this fact.

please provide me with the peer-reviewed information on this claim.

Ok, there are two evidences in the existence of Allah. One is the Noble Quran, which is a miracle in itself, and the other is the perfect character and lifestyle of the prophet Muhamamd, peace be upon him. He was one who fed the poor, visited the sick, kept good relations with kith and kin, fulfilled the rights of the orphans, widows and elders. He fulfilled his obligations to our Lord Allah, Most High, to the fullest.

well.. clearly and naturally, i don't hold the view that you hold with regards to Al Qur'an... further, i confess that i don't find the Prophet (pbuh) to be all that great of a role model. i find that Buddha Shakyamuni more clearly expresses the role model that i'm interested in, quite naturally

Him and his companions were beautiful examples of Allah's work in creation. The best of all human being and the best of all creation Muhammad, peace be upon him. So if you havent read up on his life, you are depriving yourself of evidence!

clearly, using such terms as 'best' are things which i feel are quite unevidenced. more to the point, this seems to be a product of cultural accretion rather than doctrine within Islam. of course, i could be mistaken about that, but it is my view currently.

To this i say that every baby, every child is born on the Fitrah, the natural inclination to beleive in and worship Allah, its in our nature, as imprinted in us by Allah, Most Glorious. So naturally, each and every baby is born a Muslim, one who submits to Allah. It is the parents who turn the pure child into a jew or a christain or a fire worshipper. It is your birthright to be Muslim, Vaj. To worship anything besides Allah is contrary to what you have been created for. It is sad, yes, but we should claim our birth right and bring ourselves back in tune with the Will of the All-Mighty, it is the only path to success.

you do understand that i don't worship anything, correct? nor do i ascribe to an unchanging human nature as such a thing has not been demonstrated.

This passive attitude will only bring destruction. It takes effort.

that doesn't make sense. if, as you contend, Allah set a veil over my heart, what can i do to make Allah lift it? Allah does not, if i recall correctly, call us to believe what we cannot believe (paraphrased, of course) and He rewards whom He chooses.

In the least, dont delibrately close your eyes once you see the truth.

indeed, i have not.

"Deities"? There is no plural in deity.

correct, deity is the singular and deities is the plural.

It is Allah alone who is the One Deity, there are none other than Him

yes, i'm aware that this is the Muslim view.

and one thing is for sure, He is not in the same situation as you.

that is also your view, but not mine.

He is above all things and all matters are refered to Him.
Allah can help you because He is the One who created you in the first place.

since i don't hold those views, there isn't much to say about it other than those aren't my views

He knows you better than you know yourself. He is closer to you than your own jugular vein! You say that you took refuge in Islam, did you ever learn how to pray?

as it turns out, i didn't learn Arabic, i learned Berber. so... i cannot say if i knew how or not. perhaps, more tellingly, since i did that as a child i've come to understand that such a comittment isn't all that valid or binding. it was, in fact, one of the first questions that i had when i joined this forum several years ago.

so, i would imagine that i didn't learn to pray properly in the Arabic tradition.

Bhuddism can in no way fulfil your spiritual needs.

on the contrary, it completely fulfills them

Bhuddism is a form of oppression, it tells you not to get married or eat meat. That is self oppression.

whilst this may seem to be correct, it actually is not. Buddhists can be married if they so choose, they cannot be monsatics then (monks and nuns), they are lay Buddhists.

vegetarian concerns are predicated by ones geographical considerations and the availability of foodstuffs. Buddha Shakyamuni, as well as the other monks/nuns, took alms for food and, as such, couldn't pick and choose what they got, meat or vegetables.

i suspect that you read some anti Buddhist propaganda and didn't know that it wasn't true

You have no interest in paradise?

none whatsoever. well... other than the paradise which we can create on earth, that is.

In paradise, there are things you have never seen, things you have never heard and things which you have never imagined. It is the ultimate abode. It is better than this world by thousands of degrees. You get married to beautiful women, there are rivers of milk, honey, pure water and wine. You dont go to the toilet, or get sick, or old. Allah has promised this for those who have faith and work righteous deeds.

why would i want to marry women, even beautiful women.. or men, for that matter? a river of honey? sounds sticky!

i'll continue to engage in postive moral and ethical actions, however.

You say you want to gain wisdom and compassion. Well if you sincerely want to gain these things, have a read of the lives of the prophets.

one does not gain wisdom by reading of other beings wisdom. Wisdom is an internal aspect of consciousness not an external feature, in the Buddhist view, which is gained through the process of meditation.

our view of Compassion is a bit different than the normative Muslim view as well as we work to extend compassion to all sentient beings throughout the multiverse.

They are the most wise of all and they are the most compassionate.

suffice it to say that i disagree.

For example, prophet Moses, peace be upon him, met one of the servants of Allah named Green. And he learnt wisdom from him.

Buddha Shakyamuni taught the Gods.

In paradise, you will be a human, but the environment will be beautiful and much more better than this earth. But let me warn you, to deny the existence of Allah is itself a form of Shirk and paradise is forbidden to anyone who commits Shirk.

since i don't have any interest in paradise, then this isn't much of a concern for me.

Yes, it is good to talk about heaven but dont forget that hell fire is real.

i don't. Buddhism has its' own conceptions of these things.

Do you know what the first question you will be asked about on the Day of Judgement? You will be asked, where are your 5 daily prayers? If you do not have your 5 daily prayers, then you will not enter paradise. Hellfire is real. Those reject Allah will not be happy on the Day of Judgement, i can tell you that. Simply because He created us and provides for us and sustains us and he has made subject to us all of creation yet there are some of turn away.

since i don't believe in a Day of Judgement either, this isn't something that overly concerns me.

Im inviting you to paradise, and you want to invite me to something else?

nope, not at all our views are quite different on these issues.

What practical steps can you take to liberation if you reject God?

the Noble Eightfold Path, for starters.

What is your definitiion of liberation?

freedom from birth, old age, sickness and death.

Just denying yourself this world and secluding yourself away from the trials of this world? That is not liberation, it is denial of reality.

nope, not my definition at all.

If you were to read up on some of the prophets like Abahram, Moses, Jesus and Muhamamd, peace be upon them, you will gain the wisdom and compassion you are searching for. Do not waste your time in mazes of error.

i have read about them. you cannot gain wisdom or compassion through reading, it is something which one develops internally as an aspect of consciousness, in our view.

i endeavor not to waste any time... well... other than on internet chat forums

What do you mean by liberation and freedom?

basically, liberation from birth, old age, sickness and death. freedom from the ego dominated discursive intellect, the dousing of the flames of karma.

metta,

~v

[Lamp Of Light]

I said:
All things are basically subjective to the truth as we perceive it to be, and that is what constitues the bulk our acknowledged reality.

Vaj said:
really... no more need be said than this. you agree with me that truth is subjective to the perceptions of the being experiencing said truth. as such, truth cannot be anything other than subjective.

Heheh wait a minute, not so fast. We are not agreed at all on this point. Look at what I said vs what you said. I said "All things are basiclaly subjective to the "truth" as we perceive it to be, and that is what constitues the bulk of our reality." You said: "[i]you agree with me that truth is subjective to the perceptions of the being experiencing said
"truth". You are saying somthing different then me.
The personal objective "truth" we perceive is subject to "truth" being established to our minds. Whther or not that "truth" our minds establish is the real truth is irrelevent to the point. If we were to learn of the real truth, then our personal objective "truth" should acknowledge the real truth, and we would perceive the real truth instead, and still remain subject to truth as our mind perceives it to be. The point is that either way, whther or not it is a personal objective truth , or a "real" truth, the mind establishes it as the "truth" either way, and so all things are subject to "truth" as your mind establishes it to be. That is why I say people don't really disbelieve in God, not really, it is rather that they disbelieve in a false
image that they have propped up in their minds regarding who God really is.
From the time a human being's mind first starts to acknowledge anything,(which would begin in the womb) it begins to seek and test, to establish truth(s) of all kinds to its understanding; about its environment for example and itself; sensations; pain for example. These things are all accepted established "truth"(s) to the minds understanding. If you couldn't establish the truth of a rocks existance, then it wouldn't be reality to your understanding mind. So all of our reality, to the minds understanding, is entirely dependent upon or requiring "truth"(real or perceived to be real), in order for the understanding mind to perceive or acknowledge it as reality.

Logic demonstrates it to us:

If somthing is true, then truth exists.
Somthing is true.
Truth exists.


If nothing is true, then truth exists.
Nothing is true.
Truth exists.

We are speakign of only two possible understandings here. There is no "maybe" in regards to existing or not existing. Now you may object in regards to what existing actually means, as well as material vs immaterial, or living vs inanimate, but all of that is irrelevent to the point of logic being presented to our understanding. The mind operates somewhat like a
computer does. 10101010101010. true/false. It registers things as truths to establish its reality. Logic reveals that because whther or not somthing is true, or nothing is true, truth still exists. One could object to the reality of the logic, by saying, "nothing is true" is a false statement. Negating the validity of the logic for that portion, and obviously so, because its impossible nothing exists to our perceived reality. But you can't negate the first one in the same manner, because obviously we can demonstrate perceived truths(2+2=4, falling down hurts, no square circles, etc), and so we perceive somthing is true, and if somthign is true, then truth exists, even if it is only an abstract entity we conceive in our minds. The whole point is that this abstract entity is what establishes to our mind , our entire reality. Hence I say it is the fundamental monistic principle of our entire reality. It sounds like what people say God is supposed to be (in principle of reality - ie: Most
religions/people seem to believe in a creator of heaven and earth or all powerful diety that established creation; a creator.)
By coming to know and understand truth, you come to know and understand who is God, and specifically I say the one true living God of the Abrahamic faith, especially as revealed to us in/by Jesus. The understood meaning to the mind, in regards to "truth" is really synonymous to the understood meaning of God on many levels. So if you can see and recognize what is truth, then you should be able to see and recognize what is God, as the mind is capable to conceive the understanding of Him.

Vaj said:
... , i'm not asking to have you prove G!D exists unless you are defining G!D as Absolute Truth, which you are, seemingly doing. if this is the case, then i would require solid evidence for your conclusion so that i could duly consider it as well.

Ok, I will do my very best Vaj. Forget all about deity (which should be easy to do for you ! hehe) and lets think with nothign but a purely logical mind, even if logic doesn't necessarily translate into reality. The point here is to just rely purely on our logic.

Let me try an illustration: two men are sitting at a campfire debating, call it the "god" game, and they start talkign about god(s) and the belief thereof. They each are trying to demonstrate the greatness of their god. One believes god is the earth, and the other believes god is the sun, and so they are arguing about who has the greater god, the earth or the sun. Teh one who worships the earth as god, says his god is most powerful because it supplies all the food and sustaining factors people need to live. The one who thinks the sun is god, insists his god is greater because the sun is over the earth, and sustains the life on the earth by its very existance. If the sun didn't give the earth its power, the plants wouldn't grow and the food wouldn't be available on the earth. Then there is me, who woudl say to them
both, neither one of your gods can really be God, because the earth and the sun are entirely dependent upon truth to either exist or even not to exist... without my God(truth), neither one of your gods could even be established/perceived to exist. They are both entirely dependent upon or requiring truth, which is my God.

I said:
Besides, God isn't ever goign to let that happen, because He desires your love in spirit and in truth.

you replied:
i confess that the anthropormorphic ideas found within the Abrahamic traditions is somewhat strange to me.

I understand that. The point I am making here is that God is so powerful, that if you were to see Him, or perceive Him, there would no longer be a free will choice on your part. His power is so great that just to directly witness His existance, You would die, and if He filtered it, then it would cause you to fall down and worship Him before HIm... not because of the power of his authority in itself (but because you will be like a moth to a flame, and
entirely consumed/attracted/in love with HIm.) There would be no ability to resist. That is why you hear the apostles say things like "We love God, because He loved us first". Or that they have been "chosen" by God. God revealed to them, or showed them, and as result, they are converted believers by Gods grace. That is why God remains "hidden" to our perception, so that the whoel creation, the unbiased medium He created, can function as He intended from the very beginning. So that men can choose that which they will serve, in Spirit and in Truth, right from the heart, and through experience/knowledge of what is good and evil. Gods word is that if men seek Him, He will be found. God will help us if we turn to Him, but it has to be a choice we make. God never wanted slaves or peopel to serve HIm because they had to (that would be easy enough for HIm). God wants people to love
Him for Who He is... in spirit and in truth of heart, mind, body, etc.

I am out of time for now. I hope that helps you see what I am sayng and where I am coming from a bit better. For me, I recognized whaty is truth, and then God showed me. I shoudl also say that people come to God in many different ways. Mine is not necessarily "the right way" or the only way by any means. Actually, it is probably one of the least hehe although I do hear others speak of it.


Have a wonderful day !!
May the Glory of the Lord fill your heart forever !!

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Lamp of Light,

thank you for the post.

Heheh wait a minute, not so fast. We are not agreed at all on this point.

well... that's too bad. i thought we had established a common frame of understanding in this regards.

Look at what I said vs what you said. I said "All things are basiclaly subjective to the "truth" as we perceive it to be, and that is what constitues the bulk of our reality." You said: "you agree with me that truth is subjective to the perceptions of the being experiencing said
"truth". You are saying somthing different then me.

ok.. can you demonstrate that truth claims are not dependent upon the perceptions of the being making such truth claim? this seems pretty straight forward here... we both agree, i think, that human perceptions are not universal, not omniscient, correct? as such, even if there was an "objective" sort of truth which was independent of human perceptions, humans wouldn't know about it since they rely upon their perceptions to discern phenomena and thus truth becomes subjective to the perception of the being. ipso facto, truth is subjective in the human experience.

The personal objective "truth" we perceive

that sounds like an oxymoron. if it is "objective" it is not "personal" and vice versa, in my view.

[i]The point is that either way, whther or not it is a personal objective truth , or a "real" truth, the mind establishes it as the "truth" either way, and so all things are subject to "truth" as your mind establishes it to be.

the very heart of subjectivity, in other words.

That is why I say people don't really disbelieve in God, not really, it is rather that they disbelieve in a false image that they have propped up in their minds regarding who God really is.

i see. i don't suppose that you are willing to listen to any other beings point of view on this, are you?

if so, i can tell you that i do not believe in a Creator Deity.

From the time a human being's mind first starts to acknowledge anything,(which would begin in the womb) it begins to seek and test, to establish truth(s) of all kinds to its understanding; about its environment for example and itself; sensations; pain for example. These things are all accepted established "truth"(s) to the minds understanding.

it used to be an accepted and established truth that the sun orbited the earth and that the earth was flat. those "truths" were, in fact, not true. truth, as experienced, is subject to change... displaying the subjective nature of such a concept, in my view.

If you couldn't establish the truth of a rocks existance, then it wouldn't be reality to your understanding mind.

do you mean to be speaking in general or about my mental processes in particular? the "truth" of a rocks existence is that it is impermanent, existing due to causes and conditions and has no intrinsic self nature. that, however, is the case for all phenomena and not dependent upon rocks.

moreover, if one has an understanding of Quantum Mechanics, especially with regards to the Heisenberg Uncertainity Principle, we find a whole host of things which are quite unintuitive and strange.

for instance, did you know that the more precisely you measure an electrons position, the less certain you are about its momentum? the more certain you are about its momentum, the less certain you are about its position. in fact, if you could precisely determine it's momentum, the particle would be unfindable.. or existing everywhere at the same time... which seems, for all intents and purposes, to be the same thing.

So all of our reality, to the minds understanding, is entirely dependent upon or requiring "truth"(real or perceived to be real), in order for the understanding mind to perceive or acknowledge it as reality.

i disagree. you have yet to demonstrate that "truth" has any bearing on our perceptions and the method in which they function, in particular, as it relates the minds ability to impute characteristics which are not part of the object. we see ready examples of this in the anthropormorphication of inanimate objects.

Logic demonstrates it to us:

If somthing is true, then truth exists.
Somthing is true.
Truth exists.


If nothing is true, then truth exists.
Nothing is true.
Truth exists.

Crows are birds.
Crows are black.
All black birds are crows.

why is what i wrote logically correct yet not reflective of reality?

We are speakign of only two possible understandings here. There is no "maybe" in regards to existing or not existing.

clearly, in my view, a proper understanding of the HUP renders this assertion invalid. more over, we do not live in a bivalent universe, we live in a multivalent universe and, thus, all phenomena are in a "mixed" state of existing and not existing, to lesser or greater degrees.

The mind operates somewhat like a computer does. 10101010101010. true/false.

this is not correct. however, i would be happy to review some peer reviewed scientific literature which supports this contention.

But you can't negate the first one in the same manner, because obviously we can demonstrate perceived truths(2+2=4,

2+2=4 is only true when you assume a base10 maths base. if we are using base2, binary, then this formula cannot even exist, let alone produce an answer. thus, this "truth" is also predicated on subjective human perceptions.

and so we perceive somthing is true, and if somthign is true, then truth exists, even if it is only an abstract entity we conceive in our minds. The whole point is that this abstract entity is what establishes to our mind , our entire reality.

i don't think that you've demonstrated this to be the case. moreover, it seems that your view is grounded in a radicially different world view than mine is... i'm sure that this is contributing to our communication issues

Hence I say it is the fundamental monistic principle of our entire reality.

i don't have a monistic view of reality (whatever it may be), however.

It sounds like what people say God is supposed to be (in principle of reality - ie: Most religions/people seem to believe in a creator of heaven and earth or all powerful diety that established creation; a creator.)

indeed, this is a feature of many world religions.

By coming to know and understand truth, you come to know and understand who is God, and specifically I say the one true living God of the Abrahamic faith, especially as revealed to us in/by Jesus. The understood meaning to the mind, in regards to "truth" is really synonymous to the understood meaning of God on many levels. So if you can see and recognize what is truth, then you should be able to see and recognize what is God, as the mind is capable to conceive the understanding of Him.

which is a fine belief to hold. i do not share it.

Ok, I will do my very best Vaj. Forget all about deity (which should be easy to do for you ! hehe) and lets think with nothign but a purely logical mind, even if logic doesn't necessarily translate into reality. The point here is to just rely purely on our logic.

you realize that we two beings have a different understanding of logic, correct?

Let me try an illustration: two men are sitting at a campfire debating, call it the "god" game, and they start talkign about god(s) and the belief thereof.

ok.

They each are trying to demonstrate the greatness of their god.

how can humans demonstrate the greatness of a deity?

One believes god is the earth, and the other believes god is the sun, and so they are arguing about who has the greater god, the earth or the sun. Teh one who worships the earth as god, says his god is most powerful because it supplies all the food and sustaining factors people need to live.

then that person has a poor understanding of agriculture.

The one who thinks the sun is god, insists his god is greater because the sun is over the earth, and sustains the life on the earth by its very existance.

and that person has a poor understanding of cosmology, but i digress...

If the sun didn't give the earth its power, the plants wouldn't grow and the food wouldn't be available on the earth. Then there is me, who woudl say to them both, neither one of your gods can really be God, because the earth and the sun are entirely dependent upon truth to either exist or even not to exist... without my God(truth), neither one of your gods could even be established/perceived to exist. They are both entirely dependent upon or requiring truth, which is my God.

yep, you could say that alright. you'd simply have to provide evidence that it was so, in my view.

I understand that. The point I am making here is that God is so powerful, that if you were to see Him, or perceive Him, there would no longer be a free will choice on your part.

i don't believe that humans have free will now, so this isn't something which i would consider to be a valid concern.

His power is so great that just to directly witness His existance, You would die, and if He filtered it, then it would cause you to fall down and worship Him before HIm... not because of the power of his authority in itself (but because you will be like a moth to a flame, and entirely consumed/attracted/in love with HIm.)

how... unusual.

I am out of time for now. I hope that helps you see what I am sayng and where I am coming from a bit better.

always. i have a fair idea of your point of view since i'm conversant enough in the Abrahamic faiths, though i do appreciate the clarification of your own views on these matters.

For me, I recognized whaty is truth, and then God showed me.

for me, i recognized truth and it didn't lead to any deity, let alone a Creator Deity... but, then again... we are not the same, you and i, though we aren't all that different either

Have a wonderful day !!

you too

metta,

~v

[BumbleBee]

Vaj Vaj Vaj.

if this is your view then i would encourage you to do some investigate concerning Uthman and the destruction of Al Qur'an.

thus, i cannot accept the standard apolegetic in this manner. naturally, my tradition emphasizes something other than the texts... so perhaps this is influencing my view.

You know why your tradition emphasizes something other than the texts? Because they do not want you to find the truth. The Quran is the literal words of the One True God, it is a main pathway that we can strengthen our relationship with our Creator. It is a bearer of warnings and glad tidings, so was the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

sorry, my friend, Al Qur'an is not a science book. i've heard the science apolegetic quite a bit and i find it lacking in several salient ways. that, of course, shouldn't be of much concern for a religious text, in my view.

Yes, the Quran is not a science book, but some of the signs described in the Quran are related to the creation, and some of the signs are related to the scientific phenomena of this world. For example, Allah is our creator and He has shown us some of His signs as to how He created the world. Let us explore what the Quran says about the false dieties which you invite people to.

"You invite me to disbeleive in Allah and associate with Him that which I have no knowledge, and i invite you to the exalted in Might, the Perpetual Forgiver" Quran 40:42
"Assuredly, that to which you invite me has no (respose to a) supplication in this world or in the Hereafter; and indeed, our return is to Allah, and indeed, the transgressors will be companions of the fire.

And you will remember what I (now) say to you, and i entrust my affair to Allah. Indeed, Allah is all seeing of (His) servants" Quran 40:43,44.

From these verses, we learn that anyone you call on besides Allah have no power whatso ever to answer any prayer that you have. Because there is no god besides Allah, He is the only one who can answer supplications. So these false deities to which you are devoted cannot help you in aught, my freind. Allah is the Living, Eternal, All-Seer All Knower, All-Hearer. And you can be assured that our return is to Allah alone.

I said, "Another example is that Allah says in the Quran that the heavens and the earth were one and that He seperated them and created from water all living things. So all living things have been created by Allah from water. And scientists have recently confirmed this fact.

you said,

please provide me with the peer-reviewed information on this claim.

Vaj, look up any scientific text book, or ask anyone who understands the human body and they will tell you that the human body is upto 80% water, also with all living things, they are made from water! And in the Quran Allah explains to the prophet this very fact! So here you have a man of the desert telling people that all living things are made from water, how incredible.

well.. clearly and naturally, i don't hold the view that you hold with regards to Al Qur'an... further, i confess that i don't find the Prophet (pbuh) to be all that great of a role model. i find that Buddha Shakyamuni more clearly expresses the role model that i'm interested in, quite naturally

Vaj, it is quite clear that you have little if any knowledge of exactly who the prophet was and how he lived his life. He did not confine himself away from the community, infact he was a leader, a judge, a prophet, a warrior, a father and husband and he was just amongst the people. He had all the fine qualities which you look for in a role model. He wasnt secluded and he didnt detach himself from this earthly life, infact he was the cause of great revolution in human existance. He showed people how to improve the relationship between man and The Creator, he like all the prophets invited the people to the beneficial practice of worshipping the One True God. And it is sad that many reject this.

This buddha that you set up as a rival to Allah cannot hear your cries, cannot hear your supplication, you dedicate time and effort for this false deity you are calling on to soemthing which cannot see, or hear. And by your action of setting up rivals with Allah, that is Shirk, the single most damning sin a human can make because it is Allah who is the All Seer, All-Hearer. Tell me what benefits do you think you have by following this buddha?

you do understand that i don't worship anything, correct? nor do i ascribe to an unchanging human nature as such a thing has not been demonstrated.

Yes i understand that you do not worship anything, but let me ask. What laws do you follow under this buddha? For example, a freind of mine is buddhist, and he also claims that he doesnt worship anything and he says that bhuddists dont eat meat and they are encouraged not to get married. This is oppression.

The prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him, encouraged people to get married and to look after their health. But lets get to the root of the propblem. Those who do not pray 5 times a day as shown by the prophet, peace be upon him, lack the vital nutrition of being in contact with our creator. Allah provides you with rain, fruits, meat, sun shine etc etc and you turn away and waorship something that has no share in divinity.

that doesn't make sense. if, as you contend, Allah set a veil over my heart, what can i do to make Allah lift it? Allah does not, if i recall correctly, call us to believe what we cannot believe (paraphrased, of course) and He rewards whom He chooses.

Well if there is a seal on your heart, you can ask Allah to lift it. Simple. The main way is to denounce all false dieties and proclaim the Shahada, to say La illaha ill Allah Muhammadur Rasool Allah. It is Allah alone who knows what is in the hearts. Allah does call you to beleive, and to do deeds of righteousness. That is why He has sent the prophets , to invite us to beleive in Him. Yes, Allah does reward whom He chooses, but He also punishes those who deserve it, because He is Just.

Vaj, if you had a choice, and know that you do, which would you choose to dwell in, heaven or hell fire?

correct, deity is the singular and deities is the plural.

Vaj, there is no plural for diety, because Allah is the only Diety worthy of being worshipped. There is no God besides Allah, glory be to Him. Allah's laws are just and they are beautiful, for the benefit of all people and living things.

I said, "and one thing is for sure, He is not in the same situation as you."

that is also your view, but not mine.

Vaj, one thing is certain, Allah is far above the affairs of this world, He is not in the same situation as anyone, He is far above everything. He is the Most High, all affairs rise to Him in the end. He is free from all needs, there is nothing which He needs. He begets not nor was He beggoted and there is nothing like unto Him. And you will return to Him whether you like it or not because the Day of Judgement is real, paradise is real and hell fire is real. Simply denying it doesnt make you exempt from reality.

as it turns out, i didn't learn Arabic, i learned Berber. so... i cannot say if i knew how or not. perhaps, more tellingly, since i did that as a child i've come to understand that such a comittment isn't all that valid or binding. it was, in fact, one of the first questions that i had when i joined this forum several years ago.

so, i would imagine that i didn't learn to pray properly in the Arabic tradition.

You do not neccessarily need to know arabic to pray, you just need to learn some words and actions. The prayer is, Vaj, the most valuable practice in this world. It builds and strengthens the bond between you and your creator. It is binding and it is very valid, because everything the prophet Muhamamd, peace be upon him, showed us is valuable.

I said, "Bhuddism can in no way fulfil your spiritual needs."

on the contrary, it completely fulfills them

Tell me, in what ways has this practice fulfilled your spiritual needs?

none whatsoever. well... other than the paradise which we can create on earth, that is.

What does bhuddism propose about making paradise on earth? What practical ways for society has bhuddism planned? What i do know is that bhuddists exclude themselves from society, they dont beleive in God and they have no real practical steps to build a society. This is manifest because they have no firm foundation as to their beleif system. Those who base their life on the worship of the Real, Living God then all other things fall into place. But without a foundation, you are building on a shakey sand cliff, which is ready to crumble at any time.

Buddha Shakyamuni taught the Gods.

How can a human teach God? Whoever taught that is oppressing you, and your natural inclination that there is only one God. You will remember these words on the Day of Judgement, that any you call upon besides Allah will be of no benefit to you. For example, lets look at what the Quran says, "And your Lord says,

"Call upon Me; I will respond to you." Indeed, those who disdain my worship will enter hell (rendered) contemptible. It is Allah who made the night that you may rest therein and the day giving sight. Indeed, Allah is full of bounty to the people, but most of the people are not grateful. That is All, your Lord, Creator of all things; there is no deity except Him, so how are ye deluded?"

since i don't believe in a Day of Judgement either, this isn't something that overly concerns me

It does concern you simply because, you too will be reaised from the dead to answer for your deeds in this world. What do you think will happen after you die? Let me tell you this. If you are planning to be reborn, you are being falsely m,isled. You will not be reborn on to this earth. Once you die that is it, you only get one chance, Vaj. One chance. This rebirth into anothjer chatse idea is false, its the harsh truth. When you die, you meet the angel of death, who removes your soul from your body. If you were a beleiver, this process is painless, like a drop of water falling from a leaf on a rainy day. But if you die as a disbeleiver, the angel of death will rip the soul our like a thorny bush tears through cotton. A very painful process. Then according to your deeds in this life, you will either find the grave comfortable or it could be torture, depending on whether you beleived or not. You will be in this state untill the Day of Judgement.

What is the noble eight fold path?

I said, "What is your definitiion of liberation?"

freedom from birth, old age, sickness and death.

So your definition of liberation is akin to paradise, the palce where Muslims work very hard to attain. The fact is, you cannot acheive your idea of liberation on this earth, because you cannot escape sickness, old age and death on this earth, no matter how much you desire it. This is a state of those who enter paradise, and the prophet, peace be upon him, has shown us how to enter paradise. If you follow the prophets foot steps, you will attain what you beleive as liberation in paradise.

If you truly desire liberation, then you will follow the prophet because you will not be reborn, after death it is either paradise or hell fire. And paradise is forbidden for those who practice shirk. You desire paradise, yet you commit shirk. The two dont go together.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Bumblebee,

thank you for the post.

You know why your tradition emphasizes something other than the texts?

yes, i do. do you? let's see.

Because they do not want you to find the truth.

ah.. no, you don't. let me explain. Buddhists rely upon the Dharma as our teacher, not the words spoken by other beings, as explained by Buddha Shakyamuni prior to his Parinirvana.

in point of fact, the Sanskrit word "dharma" means "truth". so, you can see, that we are, indeed, engaged in the pursuit of truth.. though not in the same manner as theistic beings at all

The Quran is the literal words of the One True God, it is a main pathway that we can strengthen our relationship with our Creator. It is a bearer of warnings and glad tidings, so was the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

asserting it as such does not make it so. i realize that Islam is, in a large degree, a legalistic religious path. i do not find such a path to be condusive to my own spiritual development... if you do, then i heartily encourage your practice to continue.

Yes, the Quran is not a science book,

because if it was a science book, it could be falsified. most religions are not all that keen on secular scientists trying to falsify their religious texts.

Let us explore what the Quran says about the false dieties which you invite people to.

let me state to you, in no uncertain terms, since you seem to be missing this point in our exhange.

I DO NOT INVITE ANY BEING TO ANY DEITY, NOR DO I WORSHIP ANY DEITY OR ANYTHING. IS THIS CLEAR?

From these verses, we learn that anyone you call on besides Allah have no power whatso ever to answer any prayer that you have.

good, since you now know that i don't engage in this sort of practice, there is no need to continue to mention it.

Because there is no god besides Allah, He is the only one who can answer supplications. So these false deities to which you are devoted cannot help you in aught, my freind.

though we acknolwedge that deities exist, we do not venerate, worship or supplicate any of them. they are, like you, caught in their karma and cannot escape it any more than you can without engaging in the practice of liberation. as such, deities are actually worse off than humans since they never see the need to practice until their rebirth is upon them.. at which point, it is a bit too late.

Vaj, look up any scientific text book, or ask anyone who understands the human body and they will tell you that the human body is upto 80% water, also with all living things, they are made from water!

since you made the assertion it is your burden of proof to substantiate this claim. nevertheless, you misunderstand.

i'm asking for you to show me the peer reviewed evidence which claims that Allah made living things out of water, not that biological forms are mostly water.

And in the Quran Allah explains to the prophet this very fact! So here you have a man of the desert telling people that all living things are made from water, how incredible.

why is this incredible? Taoists in China understood this centuries before Islam arose, to say nothing of the Vedic scientists and so forth.

Vaj, it is quite clear that you have little if any knowledge of exactly who the prophet was and how he lived his life.

ah, thank you for presuming upon my knowledge is it because i do not agree with your view that you think i have little understanding in this area? would you think i was quite knowledgeable if i agreed with you?

He did not confine himself away from the community, infact he was a leader, a judge, a prophet, a warrior, a father and husband and he was just amongst the people.

and? how is this relevant?

He had all the fine qualities which you look for in a role model.

really? please, tell me what i'm looking for in a role model

This buddha that you set up as a rival to Allah

you misunderstand, quite dramatically, what my religious path is. we do not set up anything as a rival to anything else... let alone a deity. where do you get such strange notions?

cannot hear your cries, cannot hear your supplication, you dedicate time and effort for this false deity you are calling on to soemthing which cannot see, or hear.

do you realize that we Buddhist types do not actually do what you are asserting here? i don't from whom you've learned about Buddhadharma, i can assure you, however, that whomever it is is incorrect on a great many points.

And by your action of setting up rivals with Allah, that is Shirk, the single most damning sin a human can make because it is Allah who is the All Seer, All-Hearer.

i'll say it again... not what we do so i'm not concerned about this.

Tell me what benefits do you think you have by following this buddha?

wisdom
peace
tranquility
equanimity
honesty
courage
compassion
liberation

for starters.

however, we don't follow Buddha Shakyamuni any more than we follow any of the other Buddhas. they aren't for following... they are for teaching the Dharma.

Yes i understand that you do not worship anything, but let me ask.

this doesn't appear to be correct based on the previous statements in this post. if you, hopefully, understand this, then perhaps you could dispense with the whole "false idol" and such nonesense?

What laws do you follow under this buddha?

do you mean something like religious strictures?

for a lay person, there are 5 Precepts which we follow:

abstain from incorrect speach
abstain from taking life
abstain from from stealing
abstain from taking intoxicants
abstain from sexual misconduct.

the monstics, by contrast, have many more precepts which they must adhere to. many of which are rules which govern the community activities such as repair work, kitchen detail and so forth. the specifics for monastics are contained in the Vinya section of the Buddhist scriptures.

For example, a freind of mine is buddhist, and he also claims that he doesnt worship anything and he says that bhuddists dont eat meat and they are encouraged not to get married. This is oppression.

indeed, we are encouraged not to eat meat, especially when there are viable alternatives. nevertheless, should there not be any, meat is perfectly acceptable.

if one wants to be a monk or a nun, one cannot marry. one can marry if they are a lay Buddhist. this is pretty common through religious communities which have monastics.

But lets get to the root of the propblem. Those who do not pray 5 times a day as shown by the prophet, peace be upon him, lack the vital nutrition of being in contact with our creator. Allah provides you with rain, fruits, meat, sun shine etc etc and you turn away and waorship something that has no share in divinity.

you say you understand that i don't worship anything, yet, then you make a statement like this.

this leads me to think that you really aren't giving much thought to my responses nor are you thinking that i'm serious about them.

i assure you, i am serious about them and i've given this a great deal of thought... and still continue to do so.

Well if there is a seal on your heart, you can ask Allah to lift it. Simple. The main way is to denounce all false dieties and proclaim the Shahada, to say La illaha ill Allah Muhammadur Rasool Allah.

already have done so, as i explained, when i was a child in Africa. more to the point, perhaps, is that i have no intention of suddenly engaging in deity worship... it would be incredibly inconsistent and heretical should i do so.

It is Allah alone who knows what is in the hearts.

which is a fine belief to hold.

Vaj, if you had a choice, and know that you do, which would you choose to dwell in, heaven or hell fire?

neither. since i don't exist in any substantive manner, there is no place for the non-existent i to dwell. nevertheless, for the sake of discussion, my goal is to put an end to rebirth, in whatever realm said rebirth may take place. i submit that i, such that it is, have quite a long way to go... however, since i've heard the Prajnaparamita, i know that i've successfully made the vow in the past and will continue along the path of Awakening.

Vaj, there is no plural for diety, because Allah is the only Diety worthy of being worshipped.

sure there is.

Main Entry: de·i·ty
Pronunciation: 'dE-&-tE, 'dA-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Middle English deitee, from Old French deité, from Late Latin deitat-, deitas, from Latin deus god; akin to Old English TIw, god of war, Latin divus god, dies day, Greek dios heavenly, Sanskrit deva heavenly, god
1 a : the rank or essential nature of a god : DIVINITY b capitalized : GOD 1, SUPREME BEING
2 : a god or goddess <the deities of ancient Greece>
3 : one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/deity

Vaj, one thing is certain, Allah is far above the affairs of this world, He is not in the same situation as anyone, He is far above everything.

karma is not limited to this plane of existence, it is present in all six planes.

He is the Most High, all affairs rise to Him in the end. He is free from all needs, there is nothing which He needs. He begets not nor was He beggoted and there is nothing like unto Him. And you will return to Him whether you like it or not because the Day of Judgement is real, paradise is real and hell fire is real. Simply denying it doesnt make you exempt from reality.

quite. i could, of course, say the same to you simply denying karma and rebirth doesn't exempt you from them.

You do not neccessarily need to know arabic to pray, you just need to learn some words and actions.

then... perhaps i did know the correct manner. i have often read that it is only in the original Arabic that the fullness of Al Qur'an can be experienced... of course, this is because Al Qur'an was given to people whom speak Arabic... so, perhaps "proper" prayer is also required in Arabic.

Tell me, in what ways has this practice fulfilled your spiritual needs?

most of these things are ineffable. what i can relate, however, is nothing but anecdotal evidence of the power of my own practice and the ways it has changed this current arising.

this current arising has noticed a dramatic increase in patience, compassion and equanimity for the suffering of all beings. a dawning of Wisdom dispelling ignorance of the nature of the mind and the functions thereof.

What does bhuddism propose about making paradise on earth?

an aside... you know that the word is spelled "buddhism", correct?

nothing in particular as it isn't concerned with such things. you asked if i was interested in paradise and i responded that the only one that i am interested in is the one we can make on earth. this is a personal, subjective, view and not a teaching of Buddhism, per se.

What practical ways for society has bhuddism planned?

what do you mean? like, stop at red lights?

clearly, if societies could implement the 5 precepts, it would be greatly beneficial to all beings. the practice of engaged compassion is one which requires a great deal of personal courage and resiliance, which i sometimes find myself wanting.

What i do know is that bhuddists exclude themselves from society, they dont beleive in God and they have no real practical steps to build a society.

so... in other words, you don't know much about Buddhism

as i explained, there are two basic groups... monastics and laiety. as for engagement in society and your perceptions thereof, i would strongly encourage you to visit a nation with a large Buddhist population to see the engaged sorts of compassion which i'm talking about. Buddhism takes very strong social stands regarding rights of beings and so forth.

Buddhism is, of course, not designed to be a builder of societies... how does that help put an end to suffering, old age, sickness and death? all Buddhas of the three times and ten directions teach the same Dharma, and that is the Dharma of ending birth, old age, sickness and death.

This is manifest because they have no firm foundation as to their beleif system.

i see. so if i feel that i do have a firm foundation for my religous practice, i'm mistaken?

How can a human teach God?

simple. Buddhas are not humans.

Whoever taught that is oppressing you, and your natural inclination that there is only one God.

clearly, bumblebee, your understanding of the Dharma and the Buddha Dharma, in particular, is inadequate and incomplete. we don't ascribe to most of that which you are railing against.

You will remember these words on the Day of Judgement, that any you call upon besides Allah will be of no benefit to you.

it's rather tedious, don't you think, to know that i don't believe this or do this but to continually ascribe this behavior to me?

i may as well assert that the black stone in Mecca is a Shiva Linga and you just don't know any better. and after you explain that it's not... i'll just keep telling you that this is really what you do and really what you mean... even though you have a different understanding of what is going on.

does that seem like a productive manner of communication?

It does concern you simply because, you too will be reaised from the dead to answer for your deeds in this world.

if that is the case, then i'm not all that concerned. i've done both, skillful and unskillful actions and i have no choice but to accept the consequences thereof.

What do you think will happen after you die?

since "I" don't exist, i cannot die. this phyiscal form will cease to manifest at some point, like all compounded things do as they are subject to cessation and decay.

however, if you are asking about the process of rebirth, i would be willing to talk about that to some degree.

Let me tell you this. If you are planning to be reborn, you are being falsely m,isled.

clearly, i must disagree with this view... especially given the your paucity of understanding concerning my tradition.

You will not be reborn on to this earth.

well.. that is the goal, of course. nevertheless, should i take rebirth, i should take rebirth in the human realm or, if i'm not quite ready to do so, one of the Pure Lands.

Once you die that is it, you only get one chance, Vaj. One chance.

this understanding is why i say that the only paradise i'm interested in is the one we make on this earth.

This rebirth into anothjer chatse idea is false, its the harsh truth.

i'm not sure what you are saying. Buddhism doesn't teach the caste system.

When you die, you meet the angel of death, who removes your soul from your body.

Lord Yama. when i meet Lord Yama, i shall use the Vajra chopper to effect liberation. what shall you do when Lord Yama is towering over you?

If you were a beleiver, this process is painless, like a drop of water falling from a leaf on a rainy day. But if you die as a disbeleiver, the angel of death will rip the soul our like a thorny bush tears through cotton.

umm.... what soul?

besides.. it is only due to the prescence of nerves that humans experience the sensation of pain, without such, there is no pain. sure, there could be mental anguish and so forth, though i wouldn't be inclinded to ascribe that as something like pain.

What is the noble eight fold path?

the Noble Eight Fold Path is the Fourth of the Four Noble Truths. esentially, they are:

Right View
Right Intention
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Concentration

the word "right" here is a transliteration of a term which means "perfect", Samyak. what we mean by that term, in this case, is that such actions are complete and without lack, not the standard sort of definition one uses with the term, which is why it is transliterated as it is.

So your definition of liberation is akin to paradise, the palce where Muslims work very hard to attain.

not really. my view of liberation necessitates the non-existence of a self, whereas paradise, in its many forms, necessitates the existence of a self or soul.

The fact is, you cannot acheive your idea of liberation on this earth, because you cannot escape sickness, old age and death on this earth, no matter how much you desire it.

yet, this is precisely what Buddha Shakyamuni, and all other Buddhas, for that matter, have done. this is why we follow the teachings

This is a state of those who enter paradise, and the prophet, peace be upon him, has shown us how to enter paradise. If you follow the prophets foot steps, you will attain what you beleive as liberation in paradise.

then this isn't liberation simply more rounds in Samsara.

If you truly desire liberation,

i do, which is why i practice the teachings of liberation.

then you will follow the prophet because you will not be reborn, after death it is either paradise or hell fire. And paradise is forbidden for those who practice shirk. You desire paradise, yet you commit shirk. The two dont go together.

why is it that you think i desire that which i've stated that i don't? is it because this is your desire and you think everyone must have the same desire?

let me assure you, this is not my goal nor my intention whilst engaged in my practice.

honestly, bumblebee, the information that you are presenting about my tradition is not accurate and quite misleading. the thoughts, ideations and motivations which you ascribe to me are, equally, misleading as i do not hold those views.

if you are interested in learning about my tradition, i can link you to some sites where you can read about the basics of my tradition.

metta,

~v

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Bumblebee,

thank you for the post.

You know why your tradition emphasizes something other than the texts?

yes, i do. do you? let's see.

Because they do not want you to find the truth.

ah.. no, you don't. let me explain. Buddhists rely upon the Dharma as our teacher, not the words spoken by other beings, as explained by Buddha Shakyamuni prior to his Parinirvana.

in point of fact, the Sanskrit word "dharma" means "truth". so, you can see, that we are, indeed, engaged in the pursuit of truth.. though not in the same manner as theistic beings at all

The Quran is the literal words of the One True God, it is a main pathway that we can strengthen our relationship with our Creator. It is a bearer of warnings and glad tidings, so was the prophet Muhammad, peace be upon him.

asserting it as such does not make it so. i realize that Islam is, in a large degree, a legalistic religious path. i do not find such a path to be condusive to my own spiritual development... if you do, then i heartily encourage your practice to continue.

Yes, the Quran is not a science book,

because if it was a science book, it could be falsified. most religions are not all that keen on secular scientists trying to falsify their religious texts.

Let us explore what the Quran says about the false dieties which you invite people to.

let me state to you, in no uncertain terms, since you seem to be missing this point in our exhange.

I DO NOT INVITE ANY BEING TO ANY DEITY, NOR DO I WORSHIP ANY DEITY OR ANYTHING. IS THIS CLEAR?

From these verses, we learn that anyone you call on besides Allah have no power whatso ever to answer any prayer that you have.

good, since you now know that i don't engage in this sort of practice, there is no need to continue to mention it.

Because there is no god besides Allah, He is the only one who can answer supplications. So these false deities to which you are devoted cannot help you in aught, my freind.

though we acknolwedge that deities exist, we do not venerate, worship or supplicate any of them. they are, like you, caught in their karma and cannot escape it any more than you can without engaging in the practice of liberation. as such, deities are actually worse off than humans since they never see the need to practice until their rebirth is upon them.. at which point, it is a bit too late.

Vaj, look up any scientific text book, or ask anyone who understands the human body and they will tell you that the human body is upto 80% water, also with all living things, they are made from water!

since you made the assertion it is your burden of proof to substantiate this claim. nevertheless, you misunderstand.

i'm asking for you to show me the peer reviewed evidence which claims that Allah made living things out of water, not that biological forms are mostly water.

And in the Quran Allah explains to the prophet this very fact! So here you have a man of the desert telling people that all living things are made from water, how incredible.

why is this incredible? Taoists in China understood this centuries before Islam arose, to say nothing of the Vedic scientists and so forth.

Vaj, it is quite clear that you have little if any knowledge of exactly who the prophet was and how he lived his life.

ah, thank you for presuming upon my knowledge is it because i do not agree with your view that you think i have little understanding in this area? would you think i was quite knowledgeable if i agreed with you?

He did not confine himself away from the community, infact he was a leader, a judge, a prophet, a warrior, a father and husband and he was just amongst the people.

and? how is this relevant?

He had all the fine qualities which you look for in a role model.

really? please, tell me what i'm looking for in a role model

This buddha that you set up as a rival to Allah

you misunderstand, quite dramatically, what my religious path is. we do not set up anything as a rival to anything else... let alone a deity. where do you get such strange notions?

cannot hear your cries, cannot hear your supplication, you dedicate time and effort for this false deity you are calling on to soemthing which cannot see, or hear.

do you realize that we Buddhist types do not actually do what you are asserting here? i don't from whom you've learned about Buddhadharma, i can assure you, however, that whomever it is is incorrect on a great many points.

And by your action of setting up rivals with Allah, that is Shirk, the single most damning sin a human can make because it is Allah who is the All Seer, All-Hearer.

i'll say it again... not what we do so i'm not concerned about this.

Tell me what benefits do you think you have by following this buddha?

wisdom
peace
tranquility
equanimity
honesty
courage
compassion
liberation

for starters.

however, we don't follow Buddha Shakyamuni any more than we follow any of the other Buddhas. they aren't for following... they are for teaching the Dharma.

Yes i understand that you do not worship anything, but let me ask.

this doesn't appear to be correct based on the previous statements in this post. if you, hopefully, understand this, then perhaps you could dispense with the whole "false idol" and such nonesense?

What laws do you follow under this buddha?

do you mean something like religious strictures?

for a lay person, there are 5 Precepts which we follow:

abstain from incorrect speach
abstain from taking life
abstain from from stealing
abstain from taking intoxicants
abstain from sexual misconduct.

the monstics, by contrast, have many more precepts which they must adhere to. many of which are rules which govern the community activities such as repair work, kitchen detail and so forth. the specifics for monastics are contained in the Vinya section of the Buddhist scriptures.

For example, a freind of mine is buddhist, and he also claims that he doesnt worship anything and he says that bhuddists dont eat meat and they are encouraged not to get married. This is oppression.

indeed, we are encouraged not to eat meat, especially when there are viable alternatives. nevertheless, should there not be any, meat is perfectly acceptable.

if one wants to be a monk or a nun, one cannot marry. one can marry if they are a lay Buddhist. this is pretty common through religious communities which have monastics.

But lets get to the root of the propblem. Those who do not pray 5 times a day as shown by the prophet, peace be upon him, lack the vital nutrition of being in contact with our creator. Allah provides you with rain, fruits, meat, sun shine etc etc and you turn away and waorship something that has no share in divinity.

you say you understand that i don't worship anything, yet, then you make a statement like this.

this leads me to think that you really aren't giving much thought to my responses nor are you thinking that i'm serious about them.

i assure you, i am serious about them and i've given this a great deal of thought... and still continue to do so.

Well if there is a seal on your heart, you can ask Allah to lift it. Simple. The main way is to denounce all false dieties and proclaim the Shahada, to say La illaha ill Allah Muhammadur Rasool Allah.

already have done so, as i explained, when i was a child in Africa. more to the point, perhaps, is that i have no intention of suddenly engaging in deity worship... it would be incredibly inconsistent and heretical should i do so.

It is Allah alone who knows what is in the hearts.

which is a fine belief to hold.

Vaj, if you had a choice, and know that you do, which would you choose to dwell in, heaven or hell fire?

neither. since i don't exist in any substantive manner, there is no place for the non-existent i to dwell. nevertheless, for the sake of discussion, my goal is to put an end to rebirth, in whatever realm said rebirth may take place. i submit that i, such that it is, have quite a long way to go... however, since i've heard the Prajnaparamita, i know that i've successfully made the vow in the past and will continue along the path of Awakening.

Vaj, there is no plural for diety, because Allah is the only Diety worthy of being worshipped.

sure there is.

Main Entry: de·i·ty
Pronunciation: 'dE-&-tE, 'dA-
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural -ties
Etymology: Middle English deitee, from Old French deité, from Late Latin deitat-, deitas, from Latin deus god; akin to Old English TIw, god of war, Latin divus god, dies day, Greek dios heavenly, Sanskrit deva heavenly, god
1 a : the rank or essential nature of a god : DIVINITY b capitalized : GOD 1, SUPREME BEING
2 : a god or goddess <the deities of ancient Greece>
3 : one exalted or revered as supremely good or powerful

http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/deity

Vaj, one thing is certain, Allah is far above the affairs of this world, He is not in the same situation as anyone, He is far above everything.

karma is not limited to this plane of existence, it is present in all six planes.

He is the Most High, all affairs rise to Him in the end. He is free from all needs, there is nothing which He needs. He begets not nor was He beggoted and there is nothing like unto Him. And you will return to Him whether you like it or not because the Day of Judgement is real, paradise is real and hell fire is real. Simply denying it doesnt make you exempt from reality.

quite. i could, of course, say the same to you simply denying karma and rebirth doesn't exempt you from them.

You do not neccessarily need to know arabic to pray, you just need to learn some words and actions.

then... perhaps i did know the correct manner. i have often read that it is only in the original Arabic that the fullness of Al Qur'an can be experienced... of course, this is because Al Qur'an was given to people whom speak Arabic... so, perhaps "proper" prayer is also required in Arabic.

Tell me, in what ways has this practice fulfilled your spiritual needs?

most of these things are ineffable. what i can relate, however, is nothing but anecdotal evidence of the power of my own practice and the ways it has changed this current arising.

this current arising has noticed a dramatic increase in patience, compassion and equanimity for the suffering of all beings. a dawning of Wisdom dispelling ignorance of the nature of the mind and the functions thereof.

What does bhuddism propose about making paradise on earth?

an aside... you know that the word is spelled "buddhism", correct?

nothing in particular as it isn't concerned with such things. you asked if i was interested in paradise and i responded that the only one that i am interested in is the one we can make on earth. this is a personal, subjective, view and not a teaching of Buddhism, per se.

What practical ways for society has bhuddism planned?

what do you mean? like, stop at red lights?

clearly, if societies could implement the 5 precepts, it would be greatly beneficial to all beings. the practice of engaged compassion is one which requires a great deal of personal courage and resiliance, which i sometimes find myself wanting.

What i do know is that bhuddists exclude themselves from society, they dont beleive in God and they have no real practical steps to build a society.

so... in other words, you don't know much about Buddhism

as i explained, there are two basic groups... monastics and laiety. as for engagement in society and your perceptions thereof, i would strongly encourage you to visit a nation with a large Buddhist population to see the engaged sorts of compassion which i'm talking about. Buddhism takes very strong social stands regarding rights of beings and so forth.

Buddhism is, of course, not designed to be a builder of societies... how does that help put an end to suffering, old age, sickness and death? all Buddhas of the three times and ten directions teach the same Dharma, and that is the Dharma of ending birth, old age, sickness and death.

This is manifest because they have no firm foundation as to their beleif system.

i see. so if i feel that i do have a firm foundation for my religous practice, i'm mistaken?

How can a human teach God?

simple. Buddhas are not humans.

Whoever taught that is oppressing you, and your natural inclination that there is only one God.

clearly, bumblebee, your understanding of the Dharma and the Buddha Dharma, in particular, is inadequate and incomplete. we don't ascribe to most of that which you are railing against.

You will remember these words on the Day of Judgement, that any you call upon besides Allah will be of no benefit to you.

it's rather tedious, don't you think, to know that i don't believe this or do this but to continually ascribe this behavior to me?

i may as well assert that the black stone in Mecca is a Shiva Linga and you just don't know any better. and after you explain that it's not... i'll just keep telling you that this is really what you do and really what you mean... even though you have a different understanding of what is going on.

does that seem like a productive manner of communication?

It does concern you simply because, you too will be reaised from the dead to answer for your deeds in this world.

if that is the case, then i'm not all that concerned. i've done both, skillful and unskillful actions and i have no choice but to accept the consequences thereof.

What do you think will happen after you die?

since "I" don't exist, i cannot die. this phyiscal form will cease to manifest at some point, like all compounded things do as they are subject to cessation and decay.

however, if you are asking about the process of rebirth, i would be willing to talk about that to some degree.

Let me tell you this. If you are planning to be reborn, you are being falsely m,isled.

clearly, i must disagree with this view... especially given the your paucity of understanding concerning my tradition.

You will not be reborn on to this earth.

well.. that is the goal, of course. nevertheless, should i take rebirth, i should take rebirth in the human realm or, if i'm not quite ready to do so, one of the Pure Lands.

Once you die that is it, you only get one chance, Vaj. One chance.

this understanding is why i say that the only paradise i'm interested in is the one we make on this earth.

This rebirth into anothjer chatse idea is false, its the harsh truth.

i'm not sure what you are saying. Buddhism doesn't teach the caste system.

When you die, you meet the angel of death, who removes your soul from your body.

Lord Yama. when i meet Lord Yama, i shall use the Vajra chopper to effect liberation. what shall you do when Lord Yama is towering over you?

If you were a beleiver, this process is painless, like a drop of water falling from a leaf on a rainy day. But if you die as a disbeleiver, the angel of death will rip the soul our like a thorny bush tears through cotton.

umm.... what soul?

besides.. it is only due to the prescence of nerves that humans experience the sensation of pain, without such, there is no pain. sure, there could be mental anguish and so forth, though i wouldn't be inclinded to ascribe that as something like pain.

What is the noble eight fold path?

the Noble Eight Fold Path is the Fourth of the Four Noble Truths. esentially, they are:

Right View
Right Intention
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Concentration

the word "right" here is a transliteration of a term which means "perfect", Samyak. what we mean by that term, in this case, is that such actions are complete and without lack, not the standard sort of definition one uses with the term, which is why it is transliterated as it is.

So your definition of liberation is akin to paradise, the palce where Muslims work very hard to attain.

not really. my view of liberation necessitates the non-existence of a self, whereas paradise, in its many forms, necessitates the existence of a self or soul.

The fact is, you cannot acheive your idea of liberation on this earth, because you cannot escape sickness, old age and death on this earth, no matter how much you desire it.

yet, this is precisely what Buddha Shakyamuni, and all other Buddhas, for that matter, have done. this is why we follow the teachings

This is a state of those who enter paradise, and the prophet, peace be upon him, has shown us how to enter paradise. If you follow the prophets foot steps, you will attain what you beleive as liberation in paradise.

then this isn't liberation simply more rounds in Samsara.

If you truly desire liberation,

i do, which is why i practice the teachings of liberation.

then you will follow the prophet because you will not be reborn, after death it is either paradise or hell fire. And paradise is forbidden for those who practice shirk. You desire paradise, yet you commit shirk. The two dont go together.

why is it that you think i desire that which i've stated that i don't? is it because this is your desire and you think everyone must have the same desire?

let me assure you, this is not my goal nor my intention whilst engaged in my practice.

honestly, bumblebee, the information that you are presenting about my tradition is not accurate and quite misleading. the thoughts, ideations and motivations which you ascribe to me are, equally, misleading as i do not hold those views.

if you are interested in learning about my tradition, i can link you to some sites where you can read about the basics of my tradition.

metta,

~v

[BumbleBee]

Vaj, Vaj Vaj.

ah.. no, you don't. let me explain. Buddhists rely upon the Dharma as our teacher, not the words spoken by other beings, as explained by Buddha Shakyamuni prior to his Parinirvana.

in point of fact, the Sanskrit word "dharma" means "truth". so, you can see, that we are, indeed, engaged in the pursuit of truth.. though not in the same manner as theistic beings at all

Vaj tell me what is this dharma teacher that you learn from. Do you not realise that humans and jinns are the occupants of this world? None has come onto this earth except he be a jinn or a human. As I understand it, you take this buddha who was a man and give him divine attributes. But Divinity belongs only to Allah alone! You are taking what rightfully belongs to the One True God, your Creator, your Lord, the One who sends down rain from the clouds and causes the seeds to split and sprout. This is the One True God. He is the only one worthy of worship and the only one worthy of being listened to. He makes the laws. If you were trutly seeking Truth, you wouldnt shut your eyes so tightly! If you are truly in pursuit of truth, then you would allow room for learning and flexibility, because you do not realise when the truth hits you on the head!

asserting it as such does not make it so. i realize that Islam is, in a large degree, a legalistic religious path. i do not find such a path to be condusive to my own spiritual development... if you do, then i heartily encourage your practice to continue.

The Shari'ah, Islamic Law, is the Way of Life prescribed to us by our Lord, our Creator. He created us so He knows what is best for us. FOr example, a car manufacturer tells you that this car that they have created needs this fuel and this tyres and this oil etc etc. The Creator gives the details on how to run efficiently. Allah designed us and brought us into existence, so He knows what we need, He knows what is of benefit to us and what is harmful. One of the major requirements for our own well being is to worship Allah as He should be worshipped. This is for our own good. It is we who need Him, He is free from all needs! Yes Islam is a legalistic religious path, it integrates religion with politix but it is a complete way of life. I say complete because it is prescribed by the One who Created us.

Why do you say that Islam is not condusive to your spiritual development? How can you be so certain?

because if it was a science book, it could be falsified. most religions are not all that keen on secular scientists trying to falsify their religious texts.

To your amazement, many have tried to falsify the Quran, and the Quran has been grilled by secular scientists but have failed to find errors or they have been astonished at how awesome the Quran really is. There are many lectures on The Quran, sceince and the like. You would do well to have a squizz.

let me state to you, in no uncertain terms, since you seem to be missing this point in our exhange.

I DO NOT INVITE ANY BEING TO ANY DEITY, NOR DO I WORSHIP ANY DEITY OR ANYTHING. IS THIS CLEAR?

Ok that is clear, relax! :hammerhea
So clear soemthing up for me, do you beleive that this buddha is a human or a god? Eleborate a bit for me please...

though we acknolwedge that deities exist, we do not venerate, worship or supplicate any of them. they are, like you, caught in their karma and cannot escape it any more than you can without engaging in the practice of liberation. as such, deities are actually worse off than humans since they never see the need to practice until their rebirth is upon them.. at which point, it is a bit too late.

Dieties do not exist. There is no deity besides Allah, so the plural does not really exist. Allah is not caught in any karma, be assured of that. Allah is far above all things. He Created all existence, He watches over it and maintains it. Allah is seperate from the creation. The Creator is not part of the created and the created is not part of the Creator. Allah is free from all needs and is free from any resemblence you can think of. Allah is not in need of excaping anything and neither are you. Birth, sickness, old age and death are part of this world, they are facts which are the reality.

And death happens only once. You will die only once and you will not be reborn onto this earth. The only time you will be "reborn" is when you are arecreated on the Day of Resurrection. Allah, the only Diety, is not worse of than anything or than anyone. He is far apart from creation, He is Absolute. Dont pin your hopes on rebirth, because when you die, Vaj, you will see the angel of death, that will be one rude awakening for you, and all of us.

since you made the assertion it is your burden of proof to substantiate this claim. nevertheless, you misunderstand.

i'm asking for you to show me the peer reviewed evidence which claims that Allah made living things out of water, not that biological forms are mostly water.

It says in the Quran that if they saw all the miracles of Allah, some people would still not beleive. It is not up to me to bring you these evidences but i will tell you that the Quran does explain how Allah created all living things from water and it is proven scientifically.

ah, thank you for presuming upon my knowledge is it because i do not agree with your view that you think i have little understanding in this area? would you think i was quite knowledgeable if i agreed with you?

not at all. But it is clear that you need to learn more about the prophet to see who he really was and what he stood up for. Look at the history of Islam, learn gain knowledge.

He did not confine himself away from the community, infact he was a leader, a judge, a prophet, a warrior, a father and husband and he was just amongst the people.


and? how is this relevant?

It is relevant, because i know that buddhists seclude themselves away from the society. I have seen pictures of kid buddhists spending heaps amount of time in secluded places with statues and idols.

really? please, tell me what i'm looking for in a role model

No, please tell me what you look for in a role model

wisdom
peace
tranquility
equanimity
honesty
courage
compassion
liberation

for starters.

however, we don't follow Buddha Shakyamuni any more than we follow any of the other Buddhas. they aren't for following... they are for teaching the Dharma.

Wisdom can be attained by asking Allah, The Most Wise for it. You can learn wisdom from the prophets of God, like Abraham, Moses, David, Jesus, and Muhamamd peace be upon him.

Peace can only be obtained when tyranny and oppression are fought with vigourous determination. Im not sure you are aware of this, but there is great oppression and tyranny happening in the world. It does not help to seclude yourself from these issues and pretend they dont exist. Wake up. Taking a passive attitude to the world and crying peace will not bring it about. You need a plan of action, and Islam has a plan which cannot fail because it is Divinly revealed.

Honesty can only be obtained when you have God-consciousness. To make the society honest, you need to instill in them that Allah is watching over everything that you do and you will one day be held accountable for your actions. Hence, hell fire and paradise. They are there for a reason. To punish and to reward people for their actions and intentions. How can you attain honesty by following buddhism, which has no real foundation of bringing about awareness of God. How do you propose that honesty be acheived?

Courage can only be obtained when you realise that you are fighting for a better world in which you will be rewarded with paradise and that Allah has written all things. Courage can be found in realising that everything is Pre-Destined. Pre-Destination is beleiveing that Allah has written everything that will happen in the future, 50 000 years before He even created the universe. Allah knew everything that will happen. Who is going to be born, who is going to be happy, who is going to be miserable, even the leave that drops. Allah knew it all even before He created the universe. So when you know that Allah is watching you, and that He is with those who beleive and do deeds of righteousness, only then will you have courage, because Allah is the Most Powerful, the Strong.

Compassion can only be acheived when you have sincerity, and that can only be acheived by fearing Allah, The Creator. To have compassion for something means you have a firm faith in it. For example, hell fire and paradise are real, so you will have compassion to do your duty to Allah, fearing the punishment of the fire and hoping for the reward in paradise.

Liberation in your terms is what paradise is for Muslims, as we've already discussed. But all these things you value can only be achieved by having God-consciousness (Piety). Once you realise that God is watching all your actions and that he has prepared hellfire and paradise for reward and punishment, then you will have a true understanding of reality. Until you reach that point, you will contiue to have this distorted view of reality.

do you mean something like religious strictures?

for a lay person, there are 5 Precepts which we follow:

abstain from incorrect speach
abstain from taking life
abstain from from stealing
abstain from taking intoxicants
abstain from sexual misconduct.

the monstics, by contrast, have many more precepts which they must adhere to. many of which are rules which govern the community activities such as repair work, kitchen detail and so forth. the specifics for monastics are contained in the Vinya section of the Buddhist scriptures.

You seem to have pointed out some of what is in Islam sins. But you seem to have a negative view of things, to "abstain" from these things. Muslims are also called to abstain from these things. Incorrect speach, taking life, stealing, intoxicants and illegal sexual intercourse are all major sins in Islam. These have the consequence of hell fire. But what is the deterant in your religion for these evil sins? But can you tell me some of the recommended actions that you people encourage and what reward is involved for those who practice them. In Islam we realise that there are good deeds and bad deeds.

The best deeds are those like Praying, Charity, Fasting and pilgramage to Saudi Arabia, Mekkah. These are all also acts of worship dedicated to Allah alone. A major part of Islam is to enjoin the good and forbid the evil. This is compulsory upon every muslim. And cant you see that if everyone enjoined the good and forbade the evil, this world would be a better place. That is how peace can be acheived.

already have done so, as i explained, when i was a child in Africa. more to the point, perhaps, is that i have no intention of suddenly engaging in deity worship... it would be incredibly inconsistent and heretical should i do so.

According to who?

Vaj, if you had a choice, and know that you do, which would you choose to dwell in, heaven or hell fire?


neither. since i don't exist in any substantive manner, there is no place for the non-existent i to dwell. nevertheless, for the sake of discussion, my goal is to put an end to rebirth, in whatever realm said rebirth may take place. i submit that i, such that it is, have quite a long way to go... however, since i've heard the Prajnaparamita, i know that i've successfully made the vow in the past and will continue along the path of Awakening.

Well im asking you to choose one or the other. You do exist, Vaj, you do. You are not non-existant, stop annhilating yourself. Rebirth will not happen, no matter how firm you beleive in it. There is only the resurection, wake up, you only have one chance, then its hell or paradise. Well the vow you made in the past has no essence and substance, so just snap our of it. What is the awakening? Please explain...

this current arising has noticed a dramatic increase in patience, compassion and equanimity for the suffering of all beings. a dawning of Wisdom dispelling ignorance of the nature of the mind and the functions thereof.

Well what practical steps have you taken to rectify the situation? Does your religion encourage charity maybe? Does it encourage practical ways of helping people? If so, how?

What does bhuddism propose about making paradise on earth?


an aside... you know that the word is spelled "buddhism", correct?

nothing in particular as it isn't concerned with such things. you asked if i was interested in paradise and i responded that the only one that i am interested in is the one we can make on earth. this is a personal, subjective, view and not a teaching of Buddhism, per se.

Well then let me rephrase the question, what do you propose will make paradise on earth? What practical steps can you take?

What practical ways for society has bhuddism planned?


what do you mean? like, stop at red lights?

clearly, if societies could implement the 5 precepts, it would be greatly beneficial to all beings. the practice of engaged compassion is one which requires a great deal of personal courage and resiliance, which i sometimes find myself wanting.

What i mean is firstly to rectify the root of the problem. Worship should be for Allah alone and shirk be abolished. But other things are like interest, as in a loan, is forbidden in Islam because it is unjust and oppression. Interest is cursed, that is why it is forbidden. Trade is permissable but interest is forbiden. What you find in modern day society and countries is that the whole economy is based on interest. They are drowning in them. Prostitution is forbidden in Islam, yet western society encourage it. Alcohol, gambling, fornication, all are harmful in reality yet encouraged by the governements of western society. Nationalism is a disease and must be rooted out. These are all examples of how to improve life for our fellow human beings and animals.

Practices which are encouraged are things like prayer, fasting, charity and pilgramage. But first and foremost, we need to establish that there is no god besides Allah and that Muhammad is his slave and messenger. And all worship is for Allah alone. Once that is firmly rooted, then society will flower.

i see. so if i feel that i do have a firm foundation for my religous practice, i'm mistaken?

Correct.

How can a human teach God?


simple. Buddhas are not humans.

Then what are they?

What do you think will happen after you die?


since "I" don't exist, i cannot die. this phyiscal form will cease to manifest at some point, like all compounded things do as they are subject to cessation and decay.

however, if you are asking about the process of rebirth, i would be willing to talk about that to some degree.

You do exist and you will die, one day. Rebirth is not real, learn that you will not be reborn on this earth, you will only be ressurescted on the Day of Resurection. All im saying is that you should not put your hope in rebirth.

Lord Yama. when i meet Lord Yama, i shall use the Vajra chopper to effect liberation. what shall you do when Lord Yama is towering over you?

This notion of "lord yama" means that you beleive in a lord, true? So you do beleive in a divine lordship. How many lords do you beleive in and what rites have they over you?

umm.... what soul?

The soul that the angel breathed into you when you were in the womb of your mother, the soul that exists in your body, the soul that will be judged on the Day of Judgement.

the Noble Eight Fold Path is the Fourth of the Four Noble Truths. esentially, they are:

Right View
Right Intention
Right Speech
Right Action
Right Livelihood
Right Effort
Right Mindfulness
Right Concentration

the word "right" here is a transliteration of a term which means "perfect", Samyak. what we mean by that term, in this case, is that such actions are complete and without lack, not the standard sort of definition one uses with the term, which is why it is transliterated as it is.

So what is the right view, may i ask? What is the good intention to have? In Islam, the best of intentions is to seek the pleasure of Allah. We do all the righteous actions to please Allah. The best of speech is the Quran, of which if you want the best speech, have a study of the Qur'an. What actions do you recommend? You can acheive the highest level of all these things in Islam.

[vinod]

BumbleBee, Peace

You really got to step out of 'preach-mode' in your writing. Your writing far from convincing and filled with assertions and claims without any proper backing (quoting from the Quran when the divine origins of the Quran itself is not proven to the minds of our non-muslim members is not proof)

Don't you realize that most members here find it insulting? You make it sound like as if they are stupid and ignorant about God. Not only that, you flatly and bluntly mis-represent their beliefs without any authoritative knowledge of their creed and expect them to give a listening ear to yours. You wrong their current path without convincing them of it by repeating your patronizing concern for their welfare in the hereafter. For good God's sake, you're dealing with people who are not only well versed in their religions and have solid intellects, they're also well aware of Islam by virtue of their own self-study. Their choice of their religion is not grounded on ignorance, rather it is grounded on a comparative study of many mystical and religious paths. Pls give some credit to their efforts and intellect when you converse with them.

Was-salam

[vinod]

In general, it does irk me to see some muslims write to non-muslims in the same tone that the Quran uses to refer to those kuffar of the Prophetic era. The Quran's tone is oftentimes one of derision and harshness because it was delivering the ultimate verdict after probably more than ample attempts at wise and tolerant persuasion by the Prophet. It is appalling to see muslims unwisely start off on the Quranic tone in their presentation of Islam.

I can't emphasize this enough - Oftentimes it is more important how something is said than what is actually said.
Was-salam

[Ratatosk]

Salam BumbleBee,

While your post was directed to Vajradhara, I thought I'd take this opportunity to write a short reply, anyway.

As I understand it, you take this buddha who was a man and give him divine attributes.

Vaj has done no such thing.

Why do you say that Islam is not condusive to your spiritual development?

It just might be because Vajradhara is not a muslim. That's probably the biggest reason.

many have tried to falsify the Quran

As Vajradhara already pointed out, the noble Qur'an is not a falsifiable book. It might be of service if you'd familiarize yourself with scientific reasoning and the scientific method. If nothing else, it'd at least clear up some misconceptions regarding Vajradhara's assertions.

do you beleive that this buddha is a human or a god

Vaj has made it quite clear that the buddhistic school of thought does not regard the various buddhas as deities.

But it is clear that you need to learn more about the prophet to see who he really was and what he stood up for

From what I've gathered -- from reading Vaj's posts -- it seems that Vajradhara has quite a solid understanding of the islamic history as well as the life and times of the Prophet(pbuh). Vaj may not be a scholar of islamic jurisprudence, though. For the obvious reasons, no less.

i know that buddhists seclude themselves away from the society

While you gave the reason for this belief -- a picture of "buddhistic kids" -- this understanding is manifestly false.

You seem to have pointed out some of what is in Islam sins

True. Strange, innit?

the whole [western] economy is based on interest

Based on this assertion, I'd say that your understanding of national economy is somewhat limited.

Prostitution is forbidden in Islam, yet western society encourage it

Based on this assertion, I'd say that your understanding of western societies is somewhat limited.

Alcohol, gambling, fornication, all are harmful in reality yet encouraged by the governements of western society

Based on this assertion, I'd say that your understanding of the governmental body is somewhat limited.

Don't get me wrong, BumbleBee. While I admire your zeal, some of your assertions and statements are so off the mark and so blatantly false that this might in reality work against your daw'ah. Trying to spread the message of islam by using falsehood and misinformation -- however unintentionally -- is perhaps not the best way to go about the business.

Regards,