Shia and their Beliefs

[Hannahh]

There are only three types of people that the first muslims came from (four if you count any that possibly could have been prototypical athiests) and that would be paganist or monotheists (hebrew) or 'early' Christian.

To state that any given group derives lineage from that (Jewishness) is a racial observation which should be clearly denoted in your argumentation and consequently clarified as opposed to an observation regarding any given INDIVIDUALS religiosity.

When that is clear you find that you have no argument to convey with this statement.

[Hannahh]

For instance I could say that the majority of early muslims were pagans and this is in no way demeaning to their nature nor is it a means of discrediting evidences.

[Abu Omar]

Not the complete story. Not even half way. There are all kinds of shias. The Zaydi group prefers Ali over other companions considering him to be the rightful successor of the Prophet without condemning any of the other sahabah.

Then that group are close to Ahl as-Sunnah. If I remember correctly, it is the same group which don't deny the Caliphate of Abu Bakr, Omar and Uthmaan, may Allaah (swt) be pleased with them all.

However, there are many shiites who condemn Sahaba. They even condemn Umm al-Mumineen Aisha bint Abu Bakr (raa). In addition, they believe that Muawiya ibn Abu Sufyan (raa) and Yazid ibn Muawiya (raa) were kuffar. I've checked through a shiite forum and they call these people alot of names. They seems to think that the Umayyads and the Abbasids (two of the dynasties who inherited Allaah's Kingdom) fabricated Ahadith, and that many of the Sahabas where untrustworthy (Abu Hurayrah (raa) for example).

For some reason, they also hate Khalid ibn al-Waleed (raa), althought Rasul'Allaah (saaws) said: "What an excellent slave of Allah: Khalid ibn al-Waleed, one of the swords of Allah, unleashed against the unbelievers!" (at-Tirmidhi).

Also they have pictures on Ali ibn Abu talib (raa) (which is pretty strange because I doubt none today except Allaah (swt) knows what Ali (raa) really looked like) and their Imams, which they claim they do out of love for them, but they should fear Allaah (swt) regarding pictures on humans.

Also, Ahl as-Sunnah isn't a sect, it is the people who follow the clear guidance of the Prophet (saaws), and the way of the first three generations of Muslims, which Rasul'Allaah (saaws) said would be the best people. The sects are the sufis, the shiites etc, but Ahl as-Sunnah stands on the Clear Path, avoid inovations and follow the understanding of the Salaf.

[Shukri]

Asallama Alaikum if I remember correctly the Zaydis split into 3 different groups:Jarudis, Sulaymanis and Butris even if they agree on the leadership of Imam Zayd ibn `Ali ibn al-Husayn.What are the differences between them?How many groups are there in Shi'ism?

[Usman]

Easy Usman. There are many reasons why a person/group thinks the way they do apart from lying. It could be simply misinformed.

Salaam Ikhwan,

Dis is also danger...you say Salafi brothers misinform...where is proof, bro vinod?

Sorry if I offense, bro. Many pardons. I want to learn.

[vinod]

Dis is also danger...you say Salafi brothers misinform...where is proof, bro vinod?

Sorry if I offense, bro. Many pardons. I want to learn.

My point, dear Usman, was that my statement (a myth) need not be construed as accusing the salafees of lying. I was merely saying that there are other possibities why salafees think the way they do about Shias. I honestly don't know precisely why salafees think about shias so negatively. I think well of the salafees, though I disagree with them on a wide variety of matters. I, for one, would prefer learning about Shias from Shias themselves. So, let's see what our respected Shia member Hanahh has to add to this forum to enlighten us. Let's keep an open mind and a listening ear without getting judgemental about anybody/any group. Let's not reduce this thread to throwing accusations against anybody. This thread is merely for a cordial sharing of information, not a place to pass judgement.

Was-salam

[Hannahh]

Hmm. Not sure I feel safe here to do that! But I'll give it a go...

First I want to say I've read a few threads on this board and found the conversants to be well informed about many things and as usual I find that people who have a view want others to believe them and follow them.

It is advised in the Nahjul Balagha....to not lead until one is capable of leading that journey. It isn't open to everyone, it isn't open to me nor is it open to most people who post here unless they have documented a following (such as a shiekh or imam) 'in the classical sense'.

I loosely follow Fadallah in this but can't say I know much about what he himself says (all arabic) but I do like those who follow him. Followers of Fadallah (not linked to Hezbollah or Iran) tend to be patient, fair and liberal in the sense of self determination.

I converted to Islam five years after marriage to a muslim by my own volition.
He is not particularly religious but the Shia 'stories' are deeply embedded in his conscience.
I remained aloof to all sects and actually gravitated more towards Sunni because I lived in Riyadh for twelve years of my life.
I relocated to Beirut, Lebanon over three years ago and live in the midst of all varieties of people, Christian, Druze, Sunni, Habashi, Alawi and others.
My approach to Islam changed during my tenure in Saudi Arabia not as a result of my husband but as a result of what I witnessed there, what I've read and how I feel Islam is supposed to be used towards keeping people directed toward their final goal (death and/or martyrdom) while legislating worldly affairs according to the Koran and ONLY the Koran.
There are Shia who have the 'stories' so embedded in their conscience and some of them have false stories, no doubt. But what I've found is that they memorize and repeat the Nahjul at funerals and other special occasions (just this past Sunday I heard orphan girls recite from it to thank the hostess who had arranged a fantastic iftar for them.
If I compare this memorization of the Nahjul (as a tool to educate children about Islam) in which it relays accurate historical data (not disputed by Sunni scholars or only a few at best), wisdom and prophecies that Ali (pbuh) vouchsafed from Mohamed (pbuh) and most importantly RHETORICS....if I compare that transmission of knowledge to that I know of in the Saudi culture (schools that spend hours upon hours teaching children how to wipe their behinds properly)...I made my decision based on the group which was most willing to provide the actual data so that I MYSELF could judge.

I highly advise that to anyone who remains confused in the matter.

[Hannahh]

Hypocrites and Non Hypocrites, that is the real question. There are team members of both varieties on both teams. It is better to sequester yourself in these times to avoid being confused by anyone, including me. This is a famous Hadith in the Sunni tradition and it is definitely repeated often in the Nahjul. The actual battle between the hypocrites and non hypocrites occurred long ago and like I said, "we were only doing what we found our fathers doing" is not an ample excuse to remain Christian if your parents are Christian yet you see Islam as true and more than it is to remain doing what they were doing based on the fact that one is born muslim (sunni or shia or anthing else).

Regarding Saudi Arabia though I can honestly say that they are hypocritical.
To torture and imprison Christians for possessing bibles, to forbid any other muslim group (shia or others) to build their own mosques/conduct their own studies, to ban women from driving based on no scholarly evidence and at one time in the not so distant past, to execute individuals that run against the State Religion...those are heavy evidences.

The Iranians on the other hand imprison and torture those they find heretical (regardless of their sect), force women to wear hijab and limit Sunni mosques to those communities which have Sunni populations large enough to support them. None of that is good but the balance is in their favor in terms of degree. Neither one of them can take the prize in absolute 'rightness'.

Islam is a state of mind, not a state with borders. The State should not try to use Islam because it is Islam that works through the state. I think it is obvious that mixing politics with religion is a dangerous thing and we have current messes to prove this. There are however two levels to these things and most specifically, that would mean the conflict in Iraq. There is the old battle going on between Sunni and Shia and then there is the battle against democracy. Democracy is perhaps the 'second best thing' to a final solution and there are those who would impose their views using violence against other muslims there. And I think it is pretty clear which group is doing that.
They are doing it in Ramadan (in the Nahjul it is clear that this was not done 'back then' by one group unless the other group initiated the violence, otherwise the two warring parties would retire during the entire four months of restrictions and fight the battles after).

The idea that curses are hurled at one or another of the initial players in the battle between hypocrisy and non (note, Shi'ism didn't exist then, it is a response that took hundreds of years to develop) originates that Ali (pbuh) himself would identify the "lineage" of an adversary because the adversaries were accusing him falsely of various things (namely the assassination of Uthman). He would identify one as the son of a woman who didn't know his own father, another based on his family's reputation for failure to honor treaties, etc. Now we have those who would corrupt those evidences (on both sides) and have developed a fine system of insulting one another (scum). Remember though that one of the signs is that obscenities would be more common than pleasant speech (oh I'm guilty...curse like a sailor but then again I was an ICU nurse).

I hope this helps. I wouldn't dare to curse anyone one way or the other...I'd choose to sequester myself on a mountain with my sheep. Which I have.

[Jannah81]

Assalamu Alaykum my brothers and sisters,


In my opinion, people are too quick to term other people 'Kafir.' Are we not told that if one person calls another a Kafir, then one of them is definitely a Kafir? In other words if person A calls B a Kafir, then one of the 2 is Kafir. If B turns out not to be Kafir, then A is the Kafir.
My brothers and sisters of Islam, please do not jump so fast as to term anyone by this. Even if you believe that someone is Kafir, leave it for the only One who has that real knowledge...Allah (swt).


May Allah grant you his blessings,

-Sami

[Hannahh]

I've not heard a Shia call a Sunni Kafr but I have heard some say, "Only Shia go to heaven." Same thing.



But if someone calls another "kafr" it is a terrible thing because no one but Allah knows who believes with their heart and who doesn't.

Back in the Companion's time though...the state of Kafr was a more demonstrable idea. Nowdays...one would be hard pressed to 'prove' a person kafr....and in the end that is similar to being excommunicated from something by force which is a Catholic tradition and should not be followed. Whoever wants to call themself a believer has every right to that and no one can prove otherwise. It ain't our job y'know?

[Shukri]

Regarding Saudi Arabia though I can honestly say that they are hypocritical.
To torture and imprison Christians for possessing bibles, to forbid any other muslim group (shia or others) to build their own mosques/conduct their own studies, to ban women from driving based on no scholarly evidence and at one time in the not so distant past, to execute individuals that run against the State Religion...those are heavy evidences.

Asallama Alaikum sister that's not being hypocritical they're just reinforcing Sharia law.For the better too.

[Ratatosk]

Salam Shukri,

For the better too.

Perhaps you could expound on this enigmatically short assertion, no?

Regards,

[SUMEYAH is the ideal]

Assalamu Alaykum my brothers and sisters,


In my opinion, people are too quick to term other people 'Kafir.' Are we not told that if one person calls another a Kafir, then one of them is definitely a Kafir? In other words if person A calls B a Kafir, then one of the 2 is Kafir. If B turns out not to be Kafir, then A is the Kafir.
My brothers and sisters of Islam, please do not jump so fast as to term anyone by this. Even if you believe that someone is Kafir, leave it for the only One who has that real knowledge...Allah (swt).


May Allah grant you his blessings,

-Sami

SALAAM

I AGREE WITH BR SAMI. WE SPEND SO MUCH TIME FIGHTING AMONGS EACH OTHER IT'S A WONDER WHY THE REAL KUFAARS ARE KILLING OUR MUSLIM BROTHERS AND SISTERS AROUND THE WORLD.
A JEW DOCTOR ONCE TOLD MY TEACHER THAT THE ONLY TIME THE JEWS WILL FEAR MUSLIMS IS WHEN THE MASAAJIDS ARE FILLED FOR SALAATUL-FAJR. MEANING WHEN WE UNITE.
DOES ANYONE WONDER WHY WE ARE BEING DESTROYED BY PEOPLE (JEWS) WHO ARE SO MUCH LESS THEN US.
I AM SURE WE ARE ALL STRIVING FOR ALLAH'S PLEASURE SO LET US STOP JUDGING EACH OTHER FOR ALLAH IS THE ONE WHO JUDGES.

MAY ALLAH FORGIVE ME IF I HAVE SAID ANYTHING WRONG AND MAY GIVE US ALL HIDAYAAH.

WASALAAAM

SUMEYAH

[Ratatosk]

Salam SUMEYAH is the ideal,

Hmm..., an interesting pair of sentences, indeed.

DOES ANYONE WONDER WHY WE ARE BEING DESTROYED BY PEOPLE (JEWS) WHO ARE SO MUCH LESS THEN US.

Followed by:

I AM SURE WE ARE ALL STRIVING FOR ALLAH'S PLEASURE SO LET US STOP JUDGING EACH OTHER FOR ALLAH IS THE ONE WHO JUDGES.

(emphasis mine)

Perhaps you'd care to expound on why you consider the adherents to judaism to be of "lesser" worth? Attacks on religion is a pastime for dark hearted people, in my opinion. Perhaps there is something that I've missed, though. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

There seems to be some problem with your Caps Lock key, as well. It might be stuck on "ON". Check the caps lock LED on the keyboard to verify.

Regards,

[SUMEYAH is the ideal]

Salaam br Ratatosk

[FONT=Arial]Salam SUMEYAH is the ideal,

Hmm..., an interesting pair of sentences, indeed.
Followed byempahsis mine)


Perhaps you'd care to expound on why you consider the adherents to judaism to be of "lesser" worth? Attacks on religion is a pastime for dark hearted people, in my opinion. Perhaps there is something that I've missed, though. Please correct me if I'm wrong.

l do not think that judaism is of lesser worth in fact what l was trying to get across was that if the muslims stood together the way they did then we would not have so much problems today. the shia vs sunni thing really gets to me coz it even goes on at my college. so because of it l might have gone a bit ok a lot over board. when l wrote my post l asked Allah for forgiveness and now l will ask for yours. l hope you can forgive me if l have offended you. l am appologies to anyone else out there that l might have offended.
l agree with you when you say "Attacks on religion is a pastime for dark hearted people". l tend to think that l don't have a dark heart but you never know, it could be time for me to take a good look at myself

There seems to be some problem with your Caps Lock key, as well. It might be stuck on "ON". Check the caps lock LED on the keyboard to verify.

there is nothing wrong with my caps lock key. l was merely trying to put emphasis on what l was say.

once again sorry if l offended you or anyone else .

wasalaam

SUMEYAH