narration

[Hashim]

Aslaam Alaykum Warahmatualhee War'baraakaauuh

I pray and hope you are all in good health and emaan inshallaah.

I am requesting a hadeeth and full refernce inshallaah, the narration is regading the companion Abdullah Ibn Masud (radiallhuanhu). He came across some people in a mosque, they were sitting in groups, doingzikr, using stones. For each stone they threw they chanted Allaah Huakbar 100 times and then subhanallaah 100 times and so on. Basically thry were practising a innovated form of zikr which the prophet (sallalllaahu'alay'hee'wasalaam) mnor the companions practised. Abdullaah Ibn Masud stopped them and told them not to do it. I am requesting this narration if possible inshallaah'ta'allaah.

Wa'Alaykum'Salaam

[Islam4U]

Walaykum Assalam, Wa Rehmatulahi Wabarakatahu. I'll find this Hadith Insha'Allah and post it you.

[mohamed]

Walaykum Assalam, Wa Rehmatulahi Wabarakatahu. I'll find this Hadith Insha'Allah and post it you.

I think u mean this hadith, by the way i have never heard this hadith before, probably because its not consider reliable enough.

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As for the mawquf report of Ibn Mas`ud that some adduce against the permissibility of collective dhikr in mosques, this report is inauthentic:


Amr ibn salmah said: We used to sit in front of Abdullah Ibn Masoud's house before the Fajr prayer, so that when he came out we would go with him to the Masjid. {one day} Abu Moosa al-Ash'aaree came and asked us: 'Did Abu Abdur Rahmaan (i.e. Ibn Masoud) leave yet? ' We answered: 'No.'

So Abu Moosa al-Ash'aaree sat with us waiting for him. When he came out, we all stood up. Abu Moosa told him: "Oh, Abu Abdur Rahmaan! I recently saw something in the Masjid which I deemed to be evil, but all praise is for Allah, I did see anything except good " Ibn Masoud then asked: "then What was it?"

Abu Moosa said: "You will see it if you stay alive. In the Masjid, I saw a group of people sitting in circles waiting for the Salââh. Each circle is led by a person. And every person in these circles carries small stones (pebbles).

The leader of a circle would say: "Say 'Allah-u Akbar' a hundred times" so they would repeat Allah-u Akbar a hundred times; then he says "Say 'Laa ilaaha illallaah', a hundred times" so they would say Laa ilaaha illallaah a hundred times; then he would say: "Say 'Subhaanallah', a hundred times", they will say Subhana Allah a hundred times.

Then Ibn Masoud said: "What did you tell them?"

He said: 'I didn't say anything, I waited to hear your opinion."

Abdullah Ibn Masoud said: "Could you not order them to count their evil deeds, and assured them of getting their rewards."

Then Abdullah Ibn Masoud went ahead and we accompanied him. As he approached one of the circles, he said: "What is this that you are doing?"

They said: "Oh! Abu Abdur Rahmaan, these are pebbles to count the number of times we say Allah-u Akbar, La ilaaha Illallah, and Subhaanallah."

He said: "Count your evil deeds, and I assure you that you are not going to lose anything of your rewards (Hasanat). Woe unto you, people of Muhammad, how quickly you go to destruction! Those are your Prophet's companions available, these are his clothes not worn out yet, and his pots are not broken yet. I swear by Whom my soul is in His Hands that you are either following a religion that is better than the Prophet's religion or you are opening a door of misguidance." They said: "We swear by Allah Almighty, oh, Abu Abdur Rahmaan, that we had no intention other than doing good deeds." He said: "So what? How many people wanted to do good deeds but never got to do them? The Prophet of Allah has told us about people who recited the Qur'ân with no effect on them other than the Qur'ân passing through their throats. [I.e. You are Khawarij]...


Al-Darimi in the Muqaddima of his Sunan, narrated from al-Hakam ibn al-Mubarak who narrates from `Amr ibn Salima al-Hamadani. This `Amr ibn Yahya ibn `Amr ibn Salama al- Hamadani is da`if. Ibn Ma`in saw him and said: "his narrations are worth nothing"; Ibn Kharrash: "he is not accepted; al-Dhahabi listed him among those who are weak and whose hadith is not retained in al-Du`afa' wal-Matrukin (p. 212 #3229), Mizan al-I`tidal (3:293), and al-Mughni fil-Du`afa' (2:491); and al-Haythami declared him weak (da`if) in Majma` al-Zawa'id, chapter entitled Bab al-`Ummal `ala al-Sadaqa.

Further, its authenticity was questioned by al-Suyuti in al-Hawi (2:31); al-Hifni in Fadl al-Tasbih wal-Tahlil as cited by al-Lacknawi, Sibahat al-Fikr (p. 25 and 42-43).

Further, it is belied by Imam Ahmad's narration in al-Zuhd from Abu Wa'il who said: "Those who claim that `Abd Allah [= Ibn Mas`ud] forbade dhikr [are wrong]: I never sat with him in any gathering except he made dhikr of Allah in it." Cited by al-Munawi in Fayd al-Qadir (1:457), al-Suyuti in Natijat al-Fikr fil-Jahri bil-Dhikr in al-Hawi, al-Nabulusi in Jam` al-Asrar (p. 66), al-Hifni in Fadl al-Tasbih wal- Tahlil as cited in al-Lacknawi, Sibahat al-Fikr (p. 25).

In addition, the Prophetic narrations affirming loud dhikr are sahih and innumerable, and definitely take precedence over a mawquf Companion-report even if we were hypothetically to consider it authentic.

Naysayers mention other pseudo-evidence against loud dhikr, all weak, such as the hadith "The best Dhikr is soft, and the best sustenance is what is sufficient," "One silent du`a is seventy times more superior than one loud du`a," and other da`if and maqtu` reports for which we are supposed to leave Qur'an and Sahih evidence and the understanding of the Imams!

A final note:

"It is better for one to mention Allah once, pray one prayer, or recite one Sura or the like of that with the state of the Shari`a of Muhammad SallAllahu `alayhi wa-Alihi wa-Sallam than to do it a thousand times with the blameworthy state which is intense thirst for this world and devotion to idle talk, and absorption in misguidance. Allah save us!" Shaykh `Arabi al-Darqawi.

Our Master, the light of our eyes, the treasure of this world, Mawlana al-Shaykh Nazim said in the talks titled FROM DUNYA TO MAWLA:

"First condition for protection is to believe in God, and second to continue worshipping. Run and put your prayer-carpet, pray, make Dhikr and glorify the Lord. No protection now except that. Even whole armies can't protect one single person.

"Angels glorify without tiring, and they are fed by it. The power of one angel is enough to carry away the power of whole mankind; that special power may stop everything in a moment. One spiritual person may carry away all nuclear weapons in one moment.

"We don't fear a nuclear war. It is not going to be as they like and think, because the control is in the hands of a wali. The world is under heavenly control. On every bomb there is a jinn. People think they are controlling, but they control nothing. There are the 5 Qutubs, and they control.

"Allah likes and orders to be glorified. It gives power and peace to you. Try to say more: La ilaha ill'Allah, say: ALLAH, ALLAH, make Salawat [invocations of blessings on the Prophet].

"Try to give more time of your day to reach to spiritual power. Every worshipping and Dhikr helps, giving you more love for the Lord, and real life comes through love. Saints say: people without love are like dead ones walking on earth.

"Love is life, light and our perfection. As much as your love is growing, you live more enjoyful, happy. The main purpose of tariqats is to train people to make Dhikr, so that they may take support and power from it.

"Time of Qiyama approaching now. Hundreds of signs appeared, and one of them is that people leave glorification of the Lord. And sufferings rain on them. Then they ask treatment by drugs.

"All illnesses go away by glorifying the Lord. Through your love for the Lord you will reach health, pleasure and happiness here and hereafter."

Was-Salam.

Hajj Gibril
GF Haddad

[abubakr]

asalamu alaykum

it is very interesting that the sufis such as gf haddad and keller use odd,weak and fabircated narrations to justify their aqeedah. but when anybody else uses just one naration they are quick to point out that "oh this is isolated, this doesnt exist in any of 6 books of hadith etc".

it just shows the double standards of the suffiyah. No hadith required to abandon this form of group dikr. it is a clear bida.

[Guest]

Salaam Mohamed

"We don't fear a nuclear war. It is not going to be as they like and think, because the control is in the hands of a wali. The world is under heavenly control. On every bomb there is a jinn. People think they are controlling, but they control nothing. There are the 5 Qutubs, and they control.

Care to elaborate on this a bit?

[mohamed]

Salaam Mohamed

Care to elaborate on this a bit?

I am not sure but i think he is saying that as long as they are righteous people on this earth God will protect the earth. Actually i think there is a hadith were moses says that as long as there is one living believer on earth, God will keep the earth alive for that one person.

Abu bakr, what are you afraid of all this zikr for?

I will show you some sudanese hadras. Go to this page , go to videos, then go to the hadra area at the bottom of the page(join the party) and click on the link. This is concerning the burhaniya tariqa which is sudanese.

http://burhaniya.info/intranet/I_welc_e.htm

[mohamed]

To abu bakr, previously you posted:

Originally Posted by abubakr
brother moahmmed i think it is pointless discussing with you. something goes through one ear and out the other.

i have just explained wiht evidences that the mushriks of arabia at the time of nabi saw also beleived that allah swt alone controlled the affairs of the universe yet they were called mushriks becuse they committed shikr in their worship of Allah swt just like the barelvis. END YOUR QUOTE

And then i responded with the mother of all post at the sufism thread post 128. Here i have more examples of what is shirk

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Classical Greco-Roman (Any of various religions other than Christianity or Judaism or Islamism) PaganismWhile (A native or inhabitant of Greece) Greek and (An inhabitant of the ancient Roman Empire) Roman religion began as (Belief in multiple Gods) polytheism, during the (Click link for more info and facts about Classical) Classical period the religion was thoroughly henotheistic. Zeus (or ((Roman mythology) supreme god of Romans; counterpart of Greek Zeus) Jupiter) was viewed as the supreme, all-powerful and all-knowing, king and father of the Olympian gods. To illustrate, Maximus Tyrius ( (Click link for more info and facts about 2nd century) 2nd century C.E.), stated:

"In such a mighty contest, sedition and discord, you will see one according law and assertion in all the earth, that there is one God, the king and father of all things, and many gods, sons of God, ruling together with him."


The Philosophers (Ancient Athenian philosopher; pupil of Socrates; teacher of Aristotle (428-347 BC)) Plato and (Roman philosopher (born in Egypt) who was the leading representative of Neoplatonism (205-270)) Plotinus respectively taught that above the gods of traditional belief was "The One" also called God. The One is the impersonal unifying principle of divinity.

While Hinduism is generally monistic or monotheistic admitting emanating deities, the early Rig Veda (undeveloped early Hinduism) was what Max Muller based his views of henotheism on. In the four Vedas, Muller believed that a striving towards One was being aimed at by the worship of different cosmic principles, such as Agni (fire), Vayu (wind), Indra (rain, thunder, the sky), etc. each of which was variously, by clearly different writers, hailed as supreme in different sections of the books. Indeed, however, what was confusing was an early idea of Rita, or supreme order, that bound all the gods. Other phrases such as Ekam Sat, Vipraha Bahudha Vadanti (Truth is One, though the sages know it as many) led to understandings that the Vedic people admitted to fundamental oneness. From this mix of monism, monotheism and naturalist polytheism Max Muller decided to name the early Vedic religion henotheistic.

This, however, is clearly only one possible interpretation of Vedic culture. Extremely advanced, indeed unprecedented and thitherto unduplicated ideas of pure monism are to be found even in the early Rig Veda Samhita, notwithstanding clearly monist and monotheist movements of Hinduism that developed with the advent of the Upanishads. One such example of early Vedic monism is the Nasadiya hymn of the Rig Veda: "That One breathed by itself without breath, other than it there has been nothing." To collectively term the Vedas henotheistic, and thus further leaning towards polytheism, rather than monotheism, is to ignore the clearly monist bent of the Vedas that were thoroughly developed as early as 1000 BCE in the first Aranyakas and Upanishads. However, to deny that a form of polytheism is also present may equally be to ignore aspects of the early Vedic texts. Whether the concept of "henotheism" adequately addresses these complexities or simply fudges them a matter of debate.

As for classical Hinduism, it evolved within the Vedic line but truly came into being with the ascendancy of aspects of God like Shiva and Vishnu in the Puranic and post-Puranic developments. Many sects of monotheistic bhakti (loving devotion) worshippers came into vogue who, while admitting other deities, saw them as clearly emanating from one principal source. Extreme monists within the Advaita Vedanta movement, Yoga philosophy and certain non-dual Tantra schools of Hinduism give the lie to a broad categorization of Hinduism as henotheistic, what with the conception of Brahman, a formless non-being-being that is posited to be pure consciousness, beyond attributes, the Divine Ground from which all else that is limited and temporal sprang. The fundamental Hindu trinity, Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva are seen as many as being creation, preservation and destruction subsumed in one cycle of being that is ultimately transcended with the attainment of moksha. Indeed, the only period of Hinduism that ever approached henotheism was in the early Vedic period (before 1000 BCE within the four preliminary Vedas) and even that is disputed by scholars, most notably the great Hindu mystic Aurobindo Ghosh.

Christianity
Although Christians adamantly label themselves as monotheists, some argue that Christianity is properly a form of henotheism. Most forms of Christianity include the belief in a Christian Godhead consisting of God the Father, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, with God the Father being dominant "actor" and "creator". However, Trinitarian Christians strongly reject the view that the three persons of the Godhead are three distinct gods. Rather, they describe the three persons as having a single "substance", thus counting as one god. The Council of Nicea (325 C.E.) affirmed that God was "One Substance (Greek Ousia) and three Persona (Greek Hypostasis)". The Christian Trinity, like the Classical Pagan Hypostasis and Hindu Trimurti, has an impersonal divine substance as its unifying principle.

In addition, most Christians reject the view that God the Father is supreme over Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit.

In addition, many Christians believe in what some consider to be a "pantheon" of angels, demons, and/or Saints that are inferior to the Trinity. Christians do not label these beings as "gods", although they are attributed with supernatural powers, and are sometimes the object of prayer. When Christianity was adopted by Greco-Roman pagans or African slaves, the new converts attributed to these saints features of their previous polytheistic figures. In some cases, these beliefs have developed out of the Catholic church and form syncretisms like Santeria. These beliefs are similar to Hinduism which distinguishes between God in the form of Vishnu or Shiva, and devas which are subordinate to God and who supervise forces of nature such as Agni (i.e., fire) or Vayu (i.e., wind.) In fact, Madwacharya, a follower of Vishnu who espoused Dvaita philosophy said that he was an incarnation of Vayu and told his followers to pray to Vishnu who alone can grant moksha.

Some non-trinitarian denominations of Christianity are more clearly henotheistic. Christian Gnosticism is generally henotheistic. In addition, some sects of Mormonism view the members of the Christian Godhead as three distinct beings, where God the Father is supreme. Some Latter Day Saints also believe in the existence of numerous other gods and goddesses who have no direct interest in this Earth or humanity. See Godhead (Mormonism). Though not explicitly discussed in canonical scripture, some Latter Day Saints also acknowledge a Heavenly Mother in addition to God the Father.
END QUOTE

[mohamed]

So now abu bakr read the verses again:

39:3 Now surely sincere obedience is due to Allah (alone). And those who choose protectors besides Him (say): We serve them only that they may bring us nearer to Allah. Surely Allah will judge between them in that in which they differ. Surely Allah guides not him who is a liar, ungrateful.

10:18 They serve, besides Allah, things that hurt them not nor profit them, and they say: "These are our intercessors with Allah." Say: "Do ye indeed inform Allah of something He knows not, in the heavens or on earth?- Glory to Him! and far is He above the partners they ascribe (to Him)!"

31:25 If thou ask them, who it is that created the heavens and the earth. They will certainly say, "(Allah)". Say: "Praise be to Allah." But most of them understand not.

(23:84-87) Muhammad), say to them, "Tell me, if you know, to whom does the earth and its contents belong?" They will quickly reply, "It belongs to God." Say, "Will you not, then, take heed?" Ask tthem, "Who is the Lord of the seven heavens and the Great Throne?"
They will quickly say, "It is God." Say, "Will you not then have fear of Him?"

This is what is meant by Shirk!!!!

Bin baz had it wrong!


It feels really good, everytime they open a door, i close it down. Defending the truth is very rewarding. I have learned when something is false it has a weak foundation. Every argument these so called salafist brought out, i have found them to be of a weak foundation. I feel good!



:lparty: :lparty: :lparty: :lparty: :lparty: :lparty: :lparty: :lparty:

[mohamed]

Mother of all posts part two!