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Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship? - Page 3
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Thread: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

  1. #31
    Veteran Member vinod's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    what is your opinion when told that at least one of the sides you mentioned above claims that they are the 1 saved sect (firqutan-najiyyah, i think) and that all other sects are bound for hellfire?
    Sheila

    It is possible to take the good from them and stay away from the wrong in them.

    How've you been doing? What's with all the repentence going on?
    Was-salam

  2. #32
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Quote Originally Posted by Ansar Al-Haq
    This is blatantly false. Shirk is defined as attributing a nidd or sharik with Allah.

    The early mushrikeen at the Prophet's time did noy believe "that God has partners who run the affairs of this world". Read the Qur'an:
    39:3 Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.

    Hence, the shirk committed by those who call upon other than Allah is identical to the shirk of the Makkan idolaters.

    Wa'salaam.
    And how exactly are these people "serving" these saints. Other than dua' there is nothing else you bring. Do these people make salaat, or siyaam or shukr or zikr to these saints. Are they giving charity for their favor or are they asking for their forgiveness. Do they gather in the masjid and pray to these saints. Are they giving food and gifts to these saints. Or are they just trying to get their baraka and intercession. Did not the prophet say that satan has given up on shirk. Is there anywhere in the muslim world where people have idols of the companions or the prophet's household. Is there a statue like budha for abbas or ali or khadija. You all amaze me, its like you all have a need to believe there is this "saved sect", God's chosen few that will escape the hell fire. Well wishfull thinking. The only think that will save you is the book of deeds and God's grace.

  3. #33
    Veteran Member vinod's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Salam Mohamed

    You are getting all too sentimental about this. Unfortunately, that is not helping the quality of your responses. It's also closing your mind to the possibilty that they may be correct, which is not a healthy approach to a discussion. I know that Hash and Ansar are harsh and blunt in their criticism of sufism. I wish they could be more learning-minded about sufism. They may be mistaking your notion of sufism with some other cultish practices that they've come across elsewhere. The sufism-is-all-trash attitude is not helping them either.

    But you sound too affected by all that compared to them. Seems like you've had some kind of nasty experience with salafis or something like that.

    I'd urge you, my brother, to stay clam and composed in your answers. Believe me, there are other readers of this thread other than the participants who are closely studying the discussion. I hate to say this, but so far your reaction sounds knee-jerk. I trust that you'll remove the chaff of sentiments from your post and keep it rich in arguments alone.

    Was-salam

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Are you an apologist?

  5. #35
    Veteran Member vinod's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    I don't know what that word means. You'll have to explain. But my gut feeling tells me you didn't like what I wrote.

    Was-salam

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Quote Originally Posted by mohamed
    And how exactly are these people "serving" these saints. Other than dua' there is nothing else you bring. Do these people make salaat, or siyaam or shukr or zikr to these saints. Are they giving charity for their favor or are they asking for their forgiveness. Do they gather in the masjid and pray to these saints. Are they giving food and gifts to these saints. Or are they just trying to get their baraka and intercession. Did not the prophet say that satan has given up on shirk. Is there anywhere in the muslim world where people have idols of the companions or the prophet's household. Is there a statue like budha for abbas or ali or khadija. You all amaze me, its like you all have a need to believe there is this "saved sect", God's chosen few that will escape the hell fire. Well wishfull thinking. The only think that will save you is the book of deeds and God's grace.
    These people do much worse than just doing du'aa to these 'saints' which is shrik itself, they set out on journeys to these shrines of these shrines, which is haraam itself, the actual shrines and monuments themselves are haraam thereselves, they ignore the hadeeth of the prophet (salallhualayi'wa'salaam) that it is only permissable to set out on a journey to do worshipm to three places, masjid ul haraam sharaif, masjid ul nabi, and masjid al aqsa, when hey reach these haraam shrines they indulge in even more haraam activitis which are balantly shirk manifested rituals like doing ta'waaf around these shrines, prostrating before these shrines, rubbing theselves on the shrines and kissing the shrines, and many more ignorant things. Even when these people do hajj or umrah, and after they visit the prophet (salallhualayi'wa'salaam) mosque they do worse things there as well, like going crazy by his (salallhualayi'wa'salaam) grave, some even write little notes like 'yaa rassual i have no kids please help me' or 'help me with my business' nd throw the notes through the mesh grill and other totally stupid jaahil things. These people mohammad akhee, belive me, these brevli peolple they are complelty misguided, there aqeeda is 50% bidah and 50% blind following i am telling you, and you know this. Okay Mohammad, we can carry on arguing until we turn blue in the face, but answer this question inshallaah, you have to admit this, the brevli and sufi blatantly indulge in bid'ah, this is what it all comes down to, and they even admit they do bid'aa, they see 'good bid'ah', so please akhee explain to me how can they justify these bid'aah?

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Quote Originally Posted by vinod
    I don't know what that word means. You'll have to explain. But my gut feeling tells me you didn't like what I wrote.

    Was-salam
    I looked in the dictionary, couldnt find the word apologist, wallaahu alaam, Allaah subhaanaahu'wa'tallaah knows best.

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    I don't know i am tired, you will never believe hash, go on with your takfir and God is the judge.

  9. #39

    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    As-salamu Alaykum

    please pardon my non response, however i will take notes of this thread and in time to come disscuss them again when everything has clamed down.

    Wasalams

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    RAZA KHAN DID NOT TEACH GRAVE WORSHIP ALTHOUGH SOME BRELVIS GO TO EXTREMES WHICH LEADS TO SHIRK. HOWEVER MAKING A WASEELA IS NOT SHIRK. WHEN A PERSOPN MAKES DUAA IT IS SOLELY FOR ALLAAH AND THE SAINT MAKES THE DUAA TO ALLAAH.

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Quote Originally Posted by mohamed
    If you say that the arab pagans believed so, then i say you are a liar. No mushrik will ever believe in La Ilaha Illa Allah, that God is the only controller of the affairs of this world. Nothing happens without his permission. This is La Ila Illa Allah,
    Assalamu alaikum brothers and sisters

    I'd like to rectify an error or a contradiction without deliberatley offending anyone.
    There is two kind of oneness or unicity, that is:
    - The oneness of lordship, which means that Allaah subhanah is unic in His Essence, His actions, and His names and attributes i.e. Allaah is the only creator, the Cherisher and the controller of the affairs,etc.

    - The lordship of worship {You alone we worship, You alone we seek help}, which is that Allaah is the only one who deserve praise and worship, which means Lailaha illal Allaah.

    All scholars of islam are unanimous that most of human beings believe in the oneness of lordship{tawheed roboobiyyah} i.e. Christians, Quraish, Jews, so-called Muslim heretics, etc.

    THe Problem resides in tawheedul ibadah or Lailaha illal Allaah or oneness of worship.
    Eventhough Quraish used to believe that Allaah the only Creator {oneness of lordship} they have committed the shirk of invocation or shirk of worship i.e. to place an intermediary between them and Allaah.
    Their status was much better than those call upon dead people because they don't ascribe to their statues or idles godly qualities.
    So the status of Quraish is far better than the one of the grave worshippers.
    Among other reasons, The Qur'aan exists and is preserved.

    THey read the fatihah seventeen times a day and yet they ago against its meaning: don't they know that the two verses {You alone we worship, from You alone we seek help} is the summary of the Qur'aan and even of all scriptures before us!
    May Allaah guide us to his path.
    Allaahoommah arinal haqqah haqqan warzoqna ittiba'ah. Ameen

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Quote Originally Posted by thc
    RAZA KHAN DID NOT TEACH GRAVE WORSHIP ALTHOUGH SOME BRELVIS GO TO EXTREMES WHICH LEADS TO SHIRK. HOWEVER MAKING A WASEELA IS NOT SHIRK. WHEN A PERSOPN MAKES DUAA IT IS SOLELY FOR ALLAAH AND THE SAINT MAKES THE DUAA TO ALLAAH.
    Salaam akhee maybe you will understand, i think mohammad has been lost to the dark side,

    Inshallaah just read your post again yeah, the last line of your post. What is du'aa, du'aa is the most noble form of worship, the hadeeth confirms this. And in numerous placed akhee, in the noble Qur'aan, Allaah subhanhhu'wa'tallaah confirms the concept that du'aa is only for Allaah. You say this yourself. However brother, you accept this verse of the Qur'aan to make du'aa only to Allaah, but the next line you say the saint makes the du'aa to Allaah, akhee what is this. We are told in the noble Qur'aan that Allaah strickly says, call onto me, i will answer, call directly to me, i am closer to you than your jugular vein, so on and son, yet these people go these peers and these 'sheikhs' and 'saints', and ask them to make du'aa to Allaah, make du'aa yourself! Comply with the teachings of islaam and the verses of the qur'aan which make the command to make du'aa to Allaah directly, yet, if someone says this they are called a 'wahhabi'. What is this? And when these peolle go one step further and ask them when these 'saints' are dead subhanallaah this is just plain jaahil stupiditiy! Do you understand akhee thc, and even your username falls into this ignorant mentality, relgion:sunni islaam! Subhanallaah what is this! How dare you! The deen is complete, this is the deen of Al Islaam, as a muslim your deen is islaam, in the Qur'aan we are told Allaah azzawajjaal has called us muslims and given this deen the title of islaam. Yet, nowere in the Qur'aan, not in 114 surahs of the qur'aan, not in the hundreds of hundreds of thousands of hadeeth, have we been told our elgion is sunni islaam, even the word sunni has not been mentioned! I am asking you, maybe i am wrong, maybe i should eedit my profile and put sunni islaam aswell, just show me were in the qur'aan we are told our deen is sunni islaam, or were did the prophet (sallallhualayi'wa'salaaam) or any of the companions claimed they were of the relgion called sunni islaam.

    Wa'alaykum salaam

  13. #43

    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    As-Salamu alaykum

    The Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم did say:الدعاء مخ العبادهthe Du'aa is worship, the word dua simply means to call or invoke, whenj we call upon Allah it is classed as worship, but when we call on created beings it is not worship.

    We do duaa everyday whether its calling somebody by name and whatsoever, take this ayah for example

    لَا تَجْعَلُوا دُعَاء الرَّسُولِ بَيْنَكُمْ كَدُعَاء بَعْضِكُم بَعْضًا قَدْ يَعْلَمُ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ يَتَسَلَّلُونَ مِنكُمْ لِوَاذًا فَلْيَحْذَرِ الَّذِينَ يُخَالِفُونَ عَنْ أَمْرِهِ أَن تُصِيبَهُمْ فِتْنَةٌ أَوْ يُصِيبَهُمْ عَذَابٌ أَلِيمٌ

    Make not the calling (DUAA) of the Messenger among yourselves like the calling (DUAA)of one of you to another. Allah doth know those of you who slip away under shelter of some excuse; then let those beware who withstand the Messenger's order, lest some trial befall them, or a grievous penalty be inflicted on them. (24:63)


    We would have to face it, that if every type of duaa was worship then we all are guilty of shirk, duaa is used in the above ayah to mean other than worship.

    I think what it is with a lot of the brelvis especially the ones who do not pratice that much and live in villages, is , they go to far with this aspect of sainthood in Islam like Allah has given them some sort of superpower like flying on magic carpets and levitating in the air, i hear alot of fables like that, and i am not denying that Allah grants Auliya with special gifts, i just take problem with village idiots making this deen seem to be some alladin joke.

    Brelvis do believe that dead people can help from the spiratual realm, and they do say ONLY BY ALLAHS PERMISSION, so they do not attribute independant powers to the inhabitant of the grave, so i can not accuse them of shirk, simple as, but what i take problem with is why would you want to call on saints when we have Allah? seriously that needs to be considered.

    Wasalams
    Last edited by Brother Andrew; 28th June 2005 at 16:52.

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    brother the muhsriks at the time of nabi saw did not actually beleive that their idols could answer their needs indepdently for they beleived Allah swt controlled everything inculding their idols. in fact they beleived that their idols could not grant them anything as they only worshipped them in order to get closer to allah swt.

    the following is hadiht from sahih muslim whihc confirms that the mushriks beleived that even their idols were controlled by allah swt.


    The jahiliyah arabs cry during haj. Ibn abbas reported that the mushrikun would say 'i respond to your call, O Allah I respond to your call. there is no partner that you have' at this point, the prophet (saw) would interject and say, 'woe to you stop, stop' but they would proceed ' except a partner that belongs to you. you control him, and all that he controls.' (sahih muslim 2/842).

    so from this hadiht it is clear that the mushriks beleived that allah swt had complete control over everything and no one shared this atrribute of lordship.

    inshallah i will bring eveidnece from tafsir of ibn kathir and tfsir tabari which also prove this.

  15. #45

    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    As-Salamu Alaykum

    Thats an intresting hadith, which book of Sahih Muslim? whats the baab?

    Wasalams

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