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Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship? - Page 2
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Thread: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    BRELVIS ARE SUNNIS ALTHOUGH SOME BRELVIS DO SHIRK BY WORSHIPPING SAINTS BUT IMAM BRELVI DID NOT COMMAND THIS.

  2. #17
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    They don't worship saints. Here we go again. You don't know what shirk is.

  3. #18
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Quote Originally Posted by Brother Andrew
    As-Salamu Alaykum

    Brother Haroon, i have been pondering over your post and i was just wondering what are your thoughts on this hadith? where the Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم said:

    Indeed, the Children of Israel will split into 71 sects and this Ummah will have one more sect than them, all in the Fire except as-Sawaad al-A`zam (the great majority)


    [Majma` az-Zawaa’id, V. 1, pg 179, al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak, V. 4, pg 430 al-Baihaqi in al-Madkhal, pgs. 34 and 35, Tarikh Baghdaad, V. 13, pgs. 307 and 311 and al-Faqih wal-Mutafaqqih, V. 1, pgs. 179 and 180. Also taken from al-I`tisaam, V. 2, pgs. 4 V. 2, pgs. 458+; Faid ul-Qaadir, V. 5, p. 347 and classed hasan]

    And what would be your interpretation of as-Sawaad al-A'zaam?
    this is a general question for anybody, i also want to thank the administraters and moderaters for moving this thread into the mainstream, and i thank those who have replyed for replying with the right adab, may Allah bless this thread and give us knowledge through this that will be benificial . ameen

    Wasalams
    Akhee, we have something called ahl ul sunna wal jama'. Trying to find and interpret hadiths will get you into takferism. A serious disease we have in the ummah. Look at what the malikis, hanafis, hanbalis, and shafi's say about a matter then move from there. Hadith battles will lead to misinterpretations and takferism. Learn from the khawariji experience. First see what ahl ul sunna believe in then move from there. This notion that we can just look at the quran and hadith and reach conclusions is a huge killing disease we have today. People calling others mushriks or kafirs or deviants without looking at ahl ul sunna wal jama' view point.

    People should not deem someone is a grave worshipper or dead saints worshipper unless he has proof from the ahl ul sunna wal jama'. Akhee stay away from abdel wahab and his heretical teaching. That man is a master takfiri, thats all you will get from him. You will not fight the real kufar but will kill and kill the muslims. Its a takfiri ideology. He took the view that was outside the fold of the majority(ibn Taymiya) and created a whole teaching that wants to convince people that 90 per cent of the muslims are in hell. Muslims do not know what is shirk, shirk is a world alien to us. We can easily be deceived because we do not know what is shirk. We think we know. We think somebody is doing something in a grave, he is speaking to that grave, so he is making dua'. Then we move to, oh, he is making dua' to someone other than God. Hey, isn't there a verse in the koran that says making dua to anybody else is shirk. This is our logical thinking. We don't know what is shirk, we have not experienced it like the prophet and the companions have. They know shirk when they see it. We don't, so we are easily fooled into thinking this is shirk. I really hope muslims will stop using that term on others, it is a very evil word. Its more than mumbling a few words at a tomb. We really need to understand that shirk is a grave thing, its not something we think it is. Shirk is denying God's power, capabilities and authority and domain. It has nothing to do with grave yards. Man our mind is so shallow.

  4. #19
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    asalamu alaykum

    brother andrew first of all the term sawad al-azam (greater majority) is a much misunderstood term. this term applies to the first 3 generations not to the greatmajority of all people. the following is how the salaf intepreted the phrase grerater majority.

    Abdullaah Ibn Mas'ood said: "The Jamaa'ah is whatever (agrees) with the Truth. Even if it is only one person" . Ishaaq ibn Raahawaayah (d.238) said: "If you were to ask the ignorant people about the Great Majority they would say: The majority of people. They do not know that al-Jamaa'ah is the Scholar who clings to the narrations from the Prophet and his way. So whoever is with him (the scholar) and follows him, then he is al-Jamaa'ah" Reported by Abu Nu'aym in [Hilyat ul-Awliyaah].

    "There will never cease to be a small group (Taai'fah) from my Ummah clearly upon the Truth until the Hour is established" (Reported by Muslim, Tirmidhee, Ibn Maajah and Al-Haakim - Saheeh)

    so we know that the term jamah and greater majority refers to the companions, sahabah and the taibeen these are the people who lived during the first 3 generations of islam.

    The saved sect are those who are few in number amongst the people. The Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) made a supplication for them by saying: “Toobaa is for the strangers, the righteous people. They suffer many calamities;those who oppose them are more than those who follow them,” [Saheeh-Reported By Ahmad]
    We have been informed about them in the Noble Quran:

    The saved sect are those who are few in number amongst the people. The Messenger (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) made a supplication for them by saying: “Toobaa is for the strangers, the righteous people. They suffer many calamities;those who oppose them are more than those who follow them,” [Saheeh-Reported By Ahmad]

    We have been informed about them in the Noble Quran:

    “But Few of My slaves are grateful” [Soorah Sabaa: 13]

    Imam Abu Shaamah (d.665H) the teacher of imam nawawi said, “The order to stick to the Jama’ah means sticking to the truth and its followers; even if those who stick to the truth are few and those who oppose it are many, since the truth is that which the first Jama’ah from the time of the Prophet (sallallahu alaihi wa sallam) and his Companions (radiallhu’anhum) were upon. No attention is given to the great number of the people of futility coming after them.” (Al-Baa’ith ‘alal-Bida’h wal-Hawaadith, p.19)

  5. #20
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    as far as raza khan barelvi is concerned his books contain takfeer, encouragement of grave worship and many bidahs. i advise brothers to read the book "al-barelwiyat" by allamah ehsan elahi it is a v gud expose of this group. inshallah i wil bring quotes from the books of raza khan exposing his deviant beliefs which unfortunately millions of muslims esepcially in the subcontinent follow.

    and as far as sheikh abdul wahab being a takfeeri then brother mohammed you are mistaken you should read the books of sheikh abdul wahab himself and see what he says about takfir. there are many misconcepitons regarding this great reformer and scholar. i will inshallah bring some quotes.

    i agree we must debate with an open mind and observe islamic manners.

  6. #21
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    brother mohammed your comments:

    Muslims do not know what is shirk, shirk is a world alien to us. We can easily be deceived because we do not know what is shirk. We think we know.
    brother if you read the quran you willl know that the constant message right throughout the quran is one of tawhid and a rejection of shirk. i agree with you many people have misconceptions regrding tawhid and shirk. people dont have a true undertsanding of thsese terms this is due to the fact that barelvis and other groups have their own defintions which are not quite correct. it is up to the scholars and the people who ahve the correct undertsanding of thsese terms to expalin to the masses

  7. #22
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Quote Originally Posted by mohamed
    They don't worship saints. Here we go again. You don't know what shirk is.
    Aslaam Alaykum Warahmatuali wa'bara'kaatuuh.

    Indeed, the brevli / sufi brainwash their students and train them to be blind followers, such that they negate the worship of saints as shirk. These people, negate the very concept of shirk, any person who gives attributes of Allaah subhanhu'wa'tallaah to the creation, he has commited shirk, any person who asscociates partners with Allaah azzawajaal has commited shirk. The brevli and the sufu breach every concept of tawheed, i explained to you before. Okay akhee, maybe you will ignore me, maybe will ignore Al Izzaree, maybe you will ignore Abu Bakr, maybe you will ignoe the prophet (sallaallhualayi'wa'salaam) and the noble Qur'aan, and this is the path of the sufi and the brevli, without a doubt, but answer me one question akhee. On the other thread, the sufism thread, you were referring to Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahaab, and you said that he called hadrat Ali (radiallhu'anhu) a kaafir, please show me were abdul Wahaab said this.

  8. #23
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    here are some quotes from raza khans books:

    “if you are embarrassed in your affairs, seek help from the inmates of the tombs” (Wal Ula, page 46)

    “ Shaikh Abdul qadir has the power of disposition in the universe. He has been granted permission and he has the authority. He is the conductor of the affairs of the world.” (Hadaiq bakshish page 26 – raza khan)

    inshallah more to come

  9. #24
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Assalamu alaikum brothers and sisters

    One thing I really appreciate is the way this issue is conducted by brother Andrew. Brother I'd prefer to call you Abu darda' the famous companion. Do you mind?
    When I said I'd rather mention the hadith of the victorious group "Atta'ifal mansoorah" I meant that it is more correct than to say we belong to the saved sect as only those who died on the aquidah of ahlusunnah wal jama'ah deserve such honour.
    Now a word vis-a-vis the victorious group referred to in below hadith:

    "There will never cease to be a small group (Taai'fah) from my Ummah clearly upon the Truth until the Hour is established" (Reported by Muslim, Tirmidhee, Ibn Maajah and Al-Haakim - Saheeh)

    According to the Prophet sallal Allaahu alaihi wa sallam this group has the following descriptions:
    1 - They enjoin good, forbid evil and defend islam and Muslims
    2 - According to Shafi'e people of hadith belong to this group
    the proof that the history of the Ahlul-Hadeeth begins from the time of the Companions to this day of ours, the virtues of seeking hadeeth, Allaah’s benevolence upon the people of hadeeth with the isnaad, the people of hadeeth are the saved sect[mind you only those who died] and victorious group, the Four Imaams are from amongst the Ahlul-Hadeeth, the innovators hate the Ahlul-Hadeeth
    3 - A minority that exists in any land especially the arab world
    4 - Their ideology is not based on racism, rather it is based on lailaha illal Allaah
    5 - THey will not cease untill the last day
    6 - Ittiba'a (Following the Prophet sallal Allaahu alaihi wa sallam)
    "Say: If you (men) really do love Allah then follow me, Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. And Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful." [Surah Aali Imraan 3:31]

    Do the bareilawis fit in the above mentioned characteristics? THe answer is without a tiny doubt no and never will they be if they don't repent.
    In fact their characteristics are contrary to Ahlu sunnah wal jama'ah or the victorious group without going into details.

    Does it make sense brother Andrew?

    May Allaah guide us to His straight path and remove any recsentment from our hearts because Allaah the Almighty does not guide people who hate the truth:
    http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=4379

    Regards,
    Last edited by Dhahabi; 27th June 2005 at 22:19.

  10. #25
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    I did not say that abdel wahab called ali a kafir. I said the khwariji took the hadith that muslims killing each other are both in hell to envoke the kufr in ali and aisha. They justified it from the hadith. The hadith says that when muslims fight muslims both of them are in hell. Well ali's army fought aisha's so both of them are in hell. Thats the khwariji argument.

    Abdel wahab said, that these people make dua' to the dead(and we know in arabic dua' means calling upon or inviting) so this is (dua' li ghair Allah). Another words calling on other than Allah so it is shirk. Its the same mentality.

    He abdel wahab did not look into what is shirk. Shirk is the believe that God has partners who run the affairs of this world. So tell me, is Abbas or Ali or Aisha or any other is believed by the so called mushriks of sufism or others to assist or aid God to run the affairs of this world, or are they called upon to itercede to God to prevent or heal an affliction. Do these people believe that this dead saint has control and power or God almighty?

    If you say that the arab pagans believed so, then i say you are a liar. No mushrik will ever believe in La Ilaha Illa Allah, that God is the only controller of the affairs of this world. Nothing happens without his permission. This is La Ila Illa Allah, and abdel wahab and his rag torn beduins can eat my shoes.

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Quote Originally Posted by mohamed
    Shirk is the believe that God has partners who run the affairs of this world.
    This is blatantly false. Shirk is defined as attributing a nidd or sharik with Allah.

    The early mushrikeen at the Prophet's time did noy believe "that God has partners who run the affairs of this world". Read the Qur'an:
    39:3 Is it not to Allah that sincere devotion is due? But those who take for protectors other than Allah (say): "We only serve them in order that they may bring us nearer to Allah." Truly Allah will judge between them in that wherein they differ. But Allah guides not such as are false and ungrateful.

    Hence, the shirk committed by those who call upon other than Allah is identical to the shirk of the Makkan idolaters.

    Wa'salaam.

  12. #27

    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    As-Salamu Alaykum,

    Dear Brother Muhammad, i think we both need to take a deep breath, thank you for your advice but i do not want to be tribal about my posistion, I really do not need the view or any books from Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab to complete my faith, Islam is far greater and plus i have many orthodox Scholars to take from.

    I think we really need to calm down before this thread becomes one of sour disputation, i am not afraid of truth and my ears are open and i hope that my heart is sincere, we have some serious issues and the wahabi :clubme2: brelvi type thin is not going to help.

    I would also like to say i dont have to go to graves and ask of the saints, i too believe in sainthood, i believe there are those who are close to Allah due to their following of Allah's beloved Muhammad صلي اللّه عليه وسلم , however it will not nullify my faith if i refrain from asking from saints.

    I dont agree with decorating graves except those of Prophets, to beautify them, not go to such measures of taking them as places of Salah nor bulldozing them, we should have respect for graves but not the type of respect that we see too common in the subcontinent.

    I am not going to go as far as calling brelvis mushriks as i know their posistion, i have studyed their books on these issues , and i am also married to a brelvi, and i would hate to think that i am married to a mushrik, so this for me is a delicate situation, one of the very reasons i do not like to dispute.

    I just need to remind myself and others of the guidance we have been given:

    And obey Allâh and His Messenger, and do not dispute (with one another) lest you lose courage and your strength depart, and be patient. Surely, Allâh is with those who are As-Sâbirin (the patient) (Qur'an 8:46)

    Narrated Ka'b ibn Malik ; Abdullah ibn Umar Allah's Messenger (peace be upon him) said: He who acquires knowledge in order to fall into polemics with
    other scholars and prove his superiority over them, or to dispute with the ignorant or to attract the attention of the people, Allah will throw him in the Fire.

    Transmitted by Tirmidhi transmitted it from Ka'b, and Ibn Majah from Ibn Umar.

    So as you see such matters are not to be tooken lightly, we must hear both sides the interpretation and so forth, i may not be a follower of Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab nor do i have to be for my Islam to be complete, but i will not take sides and beat my chest in pride about it.

    Muslims should be just and in order to do so that means to hear people out, give them room to speak, let them clarify things, we do not want to keep talking past each other, so i am humbly requesting that everybody just slow down, talk nicely, and make the follwoing dua as we do not claim guidance but we seek it and anybody who claims to be guided and beats his chest about it is misguided, the dua is:

    اللّهم ارنا الحقا حقا و ارنا الباطلا باطلا

    Allahumma arina al haqaa haqaan wa arina al baatwila baatwilan

    O Allah show us the truth as truth and show us the falsehood as falsehood.

    We must use sincirity in our dialouge otherwise its a waste of time, waste of breath and a waste of Imaan, and we are to be held accountable so to those who fear Allah, let us carry on with this disscussion with a fair presentation from each person with a view, no ad-hominem attacks, no sour debates otherwise i will be forced to leave this thread.

    Wasalams

    and we should not be scared of truth

  13. #28

    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Brother Andrew   Expand this



    what is your opinion when told that at least one of the sides you mentioned above claims that they are the 1 saved sect (firqutan-najiyyah, i think) and that all other sects are bound for hellfire?

    in sincere repentance,
    shiela
    Last edited by vinod; 28th June 2005 at 02:32.

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  14. #29

    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    As-Salamu Alaykum

    Brother , without offence, i call myself Brother Andrew for a number of reasons but i do thank you for your wanting to call me Abu Darda, and i am sure the intention behind it is sound, thank you for the honour, and i dont mean to offend, Brother Andrew is fine, this is my Muslim name as i was born on fitra and given this name by my parents.

    Plus if we look to the happening when Adam عليه السلام was asked by Allah to name all things Adam عليه السلام named them, in which could have been the name of every human to come and if so, the name Andrew exsisted before shaytan became a kafir, and we as Muslims believe that the Sun and the Moon are in submission to Allah serving their purpose, my name is just a name serving its purpose.

    The Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلمdid rename people that embraced Islam but that was people with degrading names or those who had done an action like Abu Hurayrah رضي اللّه عنه who fathered kittens, the Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم also said the best names are the names of praise, names like Ahmed, Hameed, Muhammad.

    My name is Muhammad Abdur Rasheed, may ring bells for a few and on a personal note the proof is in the pudding, but i prefer to go by Brother Andrew due to the fact it makes the non Muslims feel that you dont have to do this and you dont have to do that upon embracing Islam as many have the fallacy that you must become a pakistani and dress like one and so forth.

    Anyhow, strayed of subject a little ......... the posts put forth has some very intresting points, in which cant be fully studied over night, i will keep those points set forth in mind and will look at them, i would like clear references though, it would be a great help to me.

    Wasalams

  15. #30

    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    As-Salamu Alaykum

    As-Salamu Alaykum news x, one thing confrontation has taught me to do is speak between the lines, i dont like to anger people but motivate thought.

    Wasalam

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