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Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?
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Thread: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

  1. #1

    Default Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    As-Salamu Alaykum

    Alot of the people in my community are what some people would term barelvis, time and time again i hear them being called grave worshippers, innovators and so forth, but i dont find theses things infact i tend to find a lot of straw man arguements flying around coming from both sides of the fence.

    Without offending nobody i am hoping that somebody that is sensible enough and is mature enough, without pride to show me in barelvi texts in which Raza Khan taught to worship saints and graves.

    I need hard solid evidence so i can verify the facts for myself, please i am not here to argue so the last thing i want is people beating their chest and making insulting comments, but what i need is statements and references and insha'Allah we can work from there.

    We should not be scared of the truth

    Wasalams

  2. #2
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Salaam Brother.

    We dont follow any man, save one, and that is the Prophet (pbuh) himself. Only he can sanction things or forbid them, as Allah has given him that right. Therefore whether Mr Khan sanctioned them or not, means nothing.

    Regards

  3. #3

    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    As-Salamu Alaykum

    Thanks for the reply brother i see where youre coming from, you see thats one problem i face, theres people that say that Imam Raza Khan innovated so many practices but i fail to see what, the brelvis say he is the true follower of the sunnah. I am not a brelvi nor am i from the sub continent but when i hear brothers constantly being called mushriks i need to know why they are being called mushriks and textual evidence from their books in wghich they permit shirk.

    I have a lot of brelvi books available, salafi books and so forth and i am ready to sit and dig through these books to get to truth, it bugs me that takfeer flys around left right and centre.

    I am hoping for people of good character that are not just out looking for a fight but people who are sincere in wanting guidance for themselves and others to show me what my brelvi brothers are doing wrong and why their belief is wrong from their texts, no straw man arguements but facts and statements that can be found in their books.

    Wasalams

  4. #4
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Salaam

    The funny thing is that it is most likely that he was a true follower of the sunnah. However, his ideologies have been twisted and changed by the brelvis to meet their own ends. He may not have taught it, but they do.

    Regards

  5. #5
    Veteran Member vinod's Avatar
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Salam Haroon

    Can you get to the specifics? I know that you are well read on the brelvis. P'raps (from good ol' ratty) you can show me some links on this forum itself where you 've written about them.

    Andrew

    I'm deeply impressed by your approach to sectarian issues. You show a very mature attitude. Keep it up. May Allah help you.

    Was-salam

  6. #6

    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    As-Salamu Alaykum

    Brother Haroon thats what i suspected, the village people tend to twist everything, there are some brelvis i cant stand, they beat there chest about their aqeedah in pride and know nothing about it.

    I would like to be shown how these brothers have deviated away from the Aqeedah of Imam Raza Khan. I know there are many misconceptions and a whole bag of smoke to see through.

    Wasalams

  7. #7
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Salaam Vinod.

    It would be my pleasure to show you my writings on them (as soon as LI stop playing games and get their polemics section up again!)

    I took about a month, taking it really slowly, and wrote this article on them. I even had Moiz Amjad check it, and also the great Sheikh-ul-Islam, Maulana al-Islamiyyah, Mufti al-Fataawiyyah, Qari al-Quranniyah (dont ask, im just making this up as i go along) Hazrat, Hafiz, Pir Mohammed Hischam Khan (hafidh'ullah'alai) bin Abdul Aziz Khan (hafidh'ullah'alai) bin Abdul Jabbar Khan (rahim'ullah'alai), all descendents from the Prophet (pbuh).

    As soon as its up, ill paste the link into this very thread. I promise!

    Regards

  8. #8

    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    As-salamu alaykum

    Thank you, i will await that

    Wasalams

  9. #9
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?


  10. #10

    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    As-Salamu alaykum

    thanks for the link, it was breif and very intresting to read, i have been raised in Islam by brelvis so as you may wonder i may have many questions and so forth, one thing i do not like is sour debate and by the outlook of your article, you have put it straight foward without any ad hominem attacks and that is appreciated.

    I know there is much much deviation with what i term as village idiots, i do have respect for Imam Raza Khan Brelvi رحمة اللّه عليه and what i have seen from his books is commendable love for the Holy Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم , however i know the brelvis beat their chest about their Aqeedah with the attitude that im right youre wrong type of thing and it seriously puts me off, especially peer saab this and peer saab that.

    On the issue of taweez, they have taken taweez to extreme levels and made them commiditys so i do understand the condemnation of them, what i have an Issue with though is bothers saying that 90% of this Ummah are mushriks, grave worshippers when in reality the subcontinent are a minority and from what i understand from the sayings of the Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم is the Ummah will never agree upon error, he didnt fear shirk for his ummah only as-shirk al asgharu, Muhammad Ibn Abdul Wahab quotes this hadith in chapter 2 of his kitab ut tawheed.

    also i know of a few hadiths indicating to follow the greater majority but recently a brother told me about hadiths relating to the following of the smaller minority so but he hasnt yet shown me these hadiths as we are meeting up tomorrow to speak about this, this is a issue i also choose to speak about here, i have added you to my msn and i will be happy to chat and share knowledge because with all sincereity i need to get to the bottom of all this aqeedah wars affecting the unity.

    I am not the type of person to beat my chest in pride, well i really hope im not, i am all about finding truth and we shouldnt be scared of exchanging sacred knowledge and interpretations from different Scholars on issues such as these, one thing that Imam Shafee رحمة اللّه عليه used to do before going into debate is pray to Allah that his opponent speaks what is true so he can submit to it.

    I have decided to look into what is termed 'wahabism' with a fair eye, and i am willing to study the full facts and research the evidences before coming to a conclusion. By learning Arabic Grammar and going to the classical texts, and doing some honest research is what we need to do in order to bring about unity through truth.

    I will be using peoples arguements, yes, but only to hear the arguement or better yet posistion against it. so i need people to understand the quotations that i will possibly bring forth may make some feel uneasy, but keep in mind im not out to attack, i am out for truth, i am not out to win a fight, i am out for truth, and whatever i bring forth could be wrong and i am not saying it is right but i strongly believe that truth will be made manifest through sincere research and sincere reasoning.

    Allahumma ihdina feeman hadayta ameen.

    Wasalams

  11. #11

    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    ISSUE ONE

    ARE A GREAT MAJORITY OF THIS UMMAH UPON ERROR?

    A claim of a minority is that the Muslim majority are misguided, such Scholars such as Bilal Phillips notes in his book, fundamentals of tawheed, page 176 on the chapter of grave worship:

    The graves of holy or saintly men among Hindus, Buddhists and Christians, have become shrines where rites of worship like prayer, sacrifice and pilgrimage are performed on a large scale. With the passage of time Muslim rulers AND THE MASSES strayed away from the fundamental principles of the Islamic creed and began to imitate the pagan practices of the non Islamic nations around them.

    Another Scholar Abdul Rahman Ben Hammad al omar in his Saudi printed booklet ‘the religion of truth’ says on page 42 when discussing the group that will be delivered:

    Although Muslims are great in number, yet only a FEW of them are true Muslims. There are 73 sects with hundreds of millions of followers; however only one of these sects are true Muslims

    And if we read many saudi printed books we will read the same over and over, for the sake of brevity I will just use these two for reference, unless more is called for.

    These above statements have me scratching my head as the Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم has said:

    Indeed, the Children of Israel will split into 71 sects and this Ummah will have one more sect than them, all in the Fire except as-Sawaad al-A`zam (the great majority)


    [Majma` az-Zawaa’id, V. 1, pg 179, al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak, V. 4, pg 430 al-Baihaqi in al-Madkhal, pgs. 34 and 35, Tarikh Baghdaad, V. 13, pgs. 307 and 311 and al-Faqih wal-Mutafaqqih, V. 1, pgs. 179 and 180. Also taken from al-I`tisaam, V. 2, pgs. 4 V. 2, pgs. 458+; Faid ul-Qaadir, V. 5, p. 347 and classed hasan]

    also in another Hadith the Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم said :

    Verily my Ummah, will not agree on error and the hand of Allah is upon the community; he who sets himself apart from it will be set apart in Hell Fire.

    (Tirmidhi, Hadith No. 57, Mishkatul Masabeh this Hadith was also narrated by al-Hakim and At –tabari from Ibn Abbas and is Sahih consult Encyclopaedia of Islamic Doctrine volume one)

    And in another Hadith the Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم stated:

    Allah has protected you from three things: that your Prophet should not invoke a curse on you and should all perish, that those who follow what is false should not prevail over those who follow the truth, and that you should not all agree in an error.

    Sunan Abu Dawud Hadith No. 1987

    Narrated Abu Hurayrah رضي اللّه عنه Allah's Apostle صلي اللّه عليه وسلم said: When a person says that people (in general) are ruined he is himself ruined.

    (Sahih Muslim,No. 1207)

    Now clearly the Ahadith presented here contradicts the statements of the Scholars quoted, and these Ahadith indicate a great number of Muslims are upon guidance, correct me if i am wrong though.

    This is ISSUE ONE i invite people to disscuss the issue at hand, are these Scholars wrong or right in this belief of theirs that most of the Ummah are upon error?

    all views are welcome, and this is NOT a debate but a honourable disscussion, the last thing we want is emotional responses which dont lead anywhere but to more hatred for one another.

    Wasalams

  12. #12
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Salaam Brother Andrew.

    A good, open minded conversation is always appreciated.

    Now, regarding the great majority going to Paradise, well just think about it. That really is a logical fallacy. Ill leave you to ponder over it.

    The hadith which mentions "my ummah will never unite upon error", is not referring to majority. It is saying that everything which is correct, you will find no difference in it, however things which people err in, whether they are in the majority or not, you will always find at least a small group of people standing for the truth. This is the meaning of it. There will always be someone standing for the correct way. The entire ummah will not unite under falsehood.

    Now. If you want my view, on whether the majority of the ummah is in error, then i say to that yes, it is true. It is due to following groups, that they error ~ simple as that really. There is no thinking, no understanding, no contemplation on the majority of the ummah's part, and that is a great deviation.

    My dear brother, i think you will find that all of these ahadith talking about majority are actually talking about the Islamic State. Therein, one should follow the political majority (i.e. dont revolt). Im certain that these hadith have absolutely nothing to do with groups or sects.

    In reality, the "Saved Sect" concept is a divider by itself. It splits the ummah, by telling it implicitly to be of the "Saved Sect". The real Muslims who will be saved, dont necessarily have to be belong to one group. It is what is in the heart, i.e. imaan and taqwa.

    With regards to peer sahibs, let me show you how good they are. Yesterday i went to one, asking him to teach me all the stuff that they do, u know with the Jinn and all that. Guess what he said to me? "Ok son, as long as you fulfill a few conditions." I said to him, as long as they are not sexually related, i'll consider them. Haha! Check him out, he gave me about 10 conditions.

    Become brelvi
    Become sunni
    Accept that I am a wali-Allah
    Become my disciple
    Leave your wahabi friends
    Promote brelvis whereever you go
    Work against the wahabi movement
    ... ive forgotten the others.

    Well, that just showed me how close to Allah he really was. Im being deadly serious btw.

    Regarding Raza Khan (r.h), Allah knows best what he was about. If he was good, then he takes his place amongst the other greats that the ummah has seen. Of course in Islam, there is no such thing as sainthood, so do glorify someone like the Brelvis do, is not an Islamic practice.

    Keep expounding on your thoughts, we might as well get the lot cleared.

    Regards

  13. #13
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    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    Quote Originally Posted by Haroon
    Salaam Brother Andrew.

    A good, open minded conversation is always appreciated.

    Now, regarding the great majority going to Paradise, well just think about it. That really is a logical fallacy. Ill leave you to ponder over it.

    The hadith which mentions "my ummah will never unite upon error", is not referring to majority. It is saying that everything which is correct, you will find no difference in it, however things which people err in, whether they are in the majority or not, you will always find at least a small group of people standing for the truth. This is the meaning of it. There will always be someone standing for the correct way. The entire ummah will not unite under falsehood.


    My dear brother, i think you will find that all of these ahadith talking about majority are actually talking about the Islamic State. Therein, one should follow the political majority (i.e. dont revolt). Im certain that these hadith have absolutely nothing to do with groups or sects.

    In reality, the "Saved Sect" concept is a divider by itself. It splits the ummah, by telling it implicitly to be of the "Saved Sect". The real Muslims who will be saved, dont necessarily have to be belong to one group. It is what is in the heart, i.e. imaan and taqwa.
    Regards

    Assalamu alaikum brother Andrew

    Imaan includes the saying of the heart, the actions of the heart, the saying of the tongue and the actions of the limbs.

    I entirely agree with what was said by our brother Haroon May Allaah protect him.
    Not only do the above hadiths stengthen one another but also there is not a single contradiction regarding their understanding. Many Other ahadith can be quoted to prove to you that the majority referred to in that hadith (sawaad a'dham) is not the number or quantity, that is:

    - I 'd rather mention the hadith of the victorious group that prove that those who follow the truth are always a minority especially when the khilafah is distroyed.

    - Abdullaah bin massaowd affirmed that the jama'ah (group) is the one who is right even if they are on their own. So in islam the truth is above the number of people.

    - On the whole, the majority referred to in the texts is the majority of ahlu sunnah wal jama'ah but not ahlu bida'.

    - I can give many examples from the Qur'aan that are relevant toour topic and make us hold the view that the minority sticks to the truth, and not the majority, namely:
    The story of Goliath, the few companions that were allowed to escort the Prophet sallal Allaahuy alaihi wa sallam after uhud.
    Last edited by Dhahabi; 26th June 2005 at 22:28.

  14. #14

    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    As-salamu Alaykum

    Thank you for your replys, Brother Dhahabi go ahead, please keep them rolling, i am very intrested in those evidences

    Wasalams

  15. #15

    Default Re: Did Raza Khan Barelvi really teach grave worship?

    As-Salamu Alaykum

    Brother Haroon, i have been pondering over your post and i was just wondering what are your thoughts on this hadith? where the Prophet صلي اللّه عليه وسلم said:

    Indeed, the Children of Israel will split into 71 sects and this Ummah will have one more sect than them, all in the Fire except as-Sawaad al-A`zam (the great majority)


    [Majma` az-Zawaa’id, V. 1, pg 179, al-Haakim in al-Mustadrak, V. 4, pg 430 al-Baihaqi in al-Madkhal, pgs. 34 and 35, Tarikh Baghdaad, V. 13, pgs. 307 and 311 and al-Faqih wal-Mutafaqqih, V. 1, pgs. 179 and 180. Also taken from al-I`tisaam, V. 2, pgs. 4 V. 2, pgs. 458+; Faid ul-Qaadir, V. 5, p. 347 and classed hasan]

    And what would be your interpretation of as-Sawaad al-A'zaam?
    this is a general question for anybody, i also want to thank the administraters and moderaters for moving this thread into the mainstream, and i thank those who have replyed for replying with the right adab, may Allah bless this thread and give us knowledge through this that will be benificial . ameen

    Wasalams

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