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Thread: Surah 15. Al-Hijr, Ayat 28-29, Question...

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    Question Surah 15. Al-Hijr, Ayat 28-29, Question...

    A-Salaamu-A-Laikum...

    On another forum I was having a discussion with a non-muslim about the definition of the use of the term "spirit" in the Ayat in question. They read as follows:

    Quote Originally Posted by Surah15:28-29
    28. Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;

    29. "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
    His take was that it means that the "spirit" of Allah exists in humanity. Liken to a part of Allah's essence, or his being. I myself had never heard of this interpretation, in fact, I had heard that to bleive such a thing is shirk. I was under the impression that the meaning of this verse referred to the life and intelligence that mankind possesses, and nothing of the divine essence of Allah which cannot be contained within any created thing.

    Anyone else have any comments towards this subject? I am seeking opinions/ facts outside of my own...

    Thank you...

    As-Salaamu-Alaikum, wa-rahmatullahi, wa baraktihuhu...

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    Al Abd Al Jabar hawk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surah 15. Al-Hijr, Ayat 28-29, Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal
    A-Salaamu-A-Laikum...

    On another forum I was having a discussion with a non-muslim about the definition of the use of the term "spirit" in the Ayat in question. They read as follows:



    His take was that it means that the "spirit" of Allah exists in humanity. Liken to a part of Allah's essence, or his being. I myself had never heard of this interpretation, in fact, I had heard that to bleive such a thing is shirk. I was under the impression that the meaning of this verse referred to the life and intelligence that mankind possesses, and nothing of the divine essence of Allah which cannot be contained within any created thing.

    Anyone else have any comments towards this subject? I am seeking opinions/ facts outside of my own...

    Thank you...

    As-Salaamu-Alaikum, wa-rahmatullahi, wa baraktihuhu...

    Salaam,
    the word used is 'ruh' 'ruach' in the Bible which means divine essence, or divine wind.
    At no point is it tranlsated to mean intelligence or wisdom or any such thing

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    Default Re: Surah 15. Al-Hijr, Ayat 28-29, Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by hawk
    Salaam,
    the word used is 'ruh' 'ruach' in the Bible which means divine essence, or divine wind.
    At no point is it tranlsated to mean intelligence or wisdom or any such thing
    I am not referring to the Bible, but the Quran. Even so, what is a "divine wind" or "divine essence"? I have not heard of such things in Islamic terms...

    One...

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    Al Abd Al Jabar hawk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surah 15. Al-Hijr, Ayat 28-29, Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by Bilal
    I am not referring to the Bible, but the Quran. Even so, what is a "divine wind" or "divine essence"? I have not heard of such things in Islamic terms...

    One...

    That is because it was bastardized from Hebrew, just like injeel is bastardised from euangelion in greek.
    Or ibrahim is a bastardisation of abraham.

    What do I mean by this?

    These words have no meaning in arabic, since they are not arabic words, to understand them, one has to go to the source language, whcih in your case is hebrew.
    There you will see the etymology of the word, and what it means, and at no point does it translate into wisdom or intelligence.

    Think about it this way, would you say that dolphins and chimpanzees exhibit some level of intelligence?

    Did god fill them too with the ruach?

    The answer is a resounding no!!!

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    Default Re: Surah 15. Al-Hijr, Ayat 28-29, Question...

    Originally Posted by Surah15:28-29
    28. Behold! thy Lord said to the angels: "I am about to create man, from sounding clay from mud moulded into shape;

    29. "When I have fashioned him (in due proportion) and breathed into him of My spirit, fall ye down in obeisance unto him."
    ----------------------------------------------------------
    Salam
    first to understand the surah=verse the Aya which can also mean a Sign one must understand the word spirit and the word soul and make a difference between the two and to also understand that Life and death are also 2 different creations which have time limit (on earth)
    lets look at in details:
    This is where most people are confused.I know this is long but worth following
    LETS LOOK AT THE WORDS SOUL SPRIRIT AND BODY.

    The human being has life, body, brain,the soul and the spirit. all seperated from each others. each has its own functions. Death comes only onto the body and the brain hence the body disintegrate
    so What is life? many know that life is opposed to death when the soul departs the person dies-----> death.
    one would say that the soul is the cause of death Wrong it is actually the oposite when the heart and brain stop working the soul departs.
    To make it even clearer. it is not the soul that make life because the foetus start growing immediatly after conception and the shape take place before it is called @a living being@. hence why abortion maybe allowed in certain cases because the @living being is not accountable and have no soul@
    In islam Allah(swt) tells us that he takes the soul on 2 occasions temporary when we go to sleep and permently when we die. here we see temporary the person is not dead yet his soul is not with him. Jesus(pbuh) also confirmed that when he went to the house to revive the woman that "died" and he said she is not dead she is asleep(meaning the soul is not with her but can be brought back to her if God allows it).
    then comes the soul
    Allah(swt) said that :
    -------------------------
    we have created you all from one single person
    ---------------------------------------------
    the word Nafs(soul) is used many times in the Quran to mean just Soul but many Muslims/peopel of the book make the mistake thinking it means person or a human being there are many instances where in the Quran it speaks of Soul, Nafs Children of Adam, mankind,Children of Israel and finally of mankind.
    You see every word used in the Quran has its own meaning and we muslims must not confused the soul with Spirit or mankind.

    so what is the soul?

    Physically it is a force of GRAPHITY ie a matter and a matter has its MASS and can be weighted(many tests done to prove the soul has about 1-2lb of weights, this was done before and after the person died). there is one problem here Einstein's theory also speaks of MASS as in relativity. this material can be seen in space when talking about satelites in orbit and must obeye the law of relativity E=mc2 hence it is a force back on earth that force is the gravity force for the body. when a person dies,the soul depart,the graphity force is removed and the body disintegrate.(usually about 3 days if I am right)
    Here comes the most important thing in the formation of Humans the injection of God's spirit
    we know God breathed into the human-animal a spirit to make him into a man and with the soul it becomes a person with free choice(to touch a fire you will burn yourself etc..) but Angels have no free will and that soul is what makes a person sin.Angels can not sin but follow God's orders like Armies

    the quran say
    --------------------
    say" The the Spirit (cometh) by command of my lord: of knowledge. it is only a little that is communicated to you,(O men)"""17:85
    -------------------------
    so here we see that the spirit is another form of creation that is given to us men by the command of God and when he wants back he takes and here it clearly demonstrate that the spirit is not the soul
    The bible makes it even clearer
    ----------------
    And Mary said"My lord doth magnify the Lord,And my Spirit hath rejoiced in God my saviour luke 1:46/47
    ----------------------------------
    here we see soul and Spirit are two different things but work together as a team.
    now that is clear lets look at death
    God says
    --------------------------
    He Who created Death and Life, that we may try which of you is best in deed......67:2
    -----------------------------------
    Death is also created as seen above and here is where the stage of the unknown
    --------------------
    ".....Before them a partition (arabic =BarZAkh),till the day are raised up 23:100
    ------------------------------------------
    here we can say that death is the same as life in terms of creation and can be a period of time till doom day when everyone shall be brought in front of God. death can be very short lets say in the last seconds of Doom day or can be millions of years like the first death on earth, so here we can see that death is a creation and has its time hence why God keeps saying in the Quran
    -------------------------------
    Don't you remember that we created you and put you to sleep and revive you again (here speaking to Children of israel )...(my own translation)
    in James 5:20
    the bible speaks of saving the soul from death. here death does not mean hell and certainly not addressed to men because niothing can save a man from death but it speaks of the soul
    this is further expalined in the Quran
    ------------------
    ...Nor can a soul die except by God's leave...........3:145

    ----------------------------------------------
    But a man does die when the time arrives and that time is fixed by God hence why no matter what a person does to kill himself only God can fullfilled that because it was already decreed and fixed.you can harm yourself burn yourself etc... but when death arrives no one can stop it and if God wishes to keep a man alive no one can kill him.
    Death in Islam is explained in my other thread on a different forum
    http://p079.ezboard.com/fmoroccoreli...picID=93.topic
    what happen to the soul in islam
    http://www.morocco.com/forums/showth...threadid=20337
    Allah knows best
    (Allah=Al illah=The God) the one and only
    To be Muslim is to be in submission and obedience to God. He is the one God who has no partner. Nothing is like Him. He is the Creator, not the created, nor a part of His creation. He is All-Powerful, absolutely Just, All-Knowing, All-Merciful, the Supreme, the Sovereign. There is no entity worthy of worship be

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    Al Abd Al Jabar hawk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surah 15. Al-Hijr, Ayat 28-29, Question...

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth
    To make it even clearer. it is not the soul that make life because the foetus start growing immediatly after conception and the shape take place before it is called @a living being@. hence why abortion maybe allowed in certain cases because the @living being is not accountable and have no soul@
    I am familiar that muslims believe that a foetus is not human until the end of the first trimester and may be aborted.
    Can you please explain why they believe such a thing, what is the islamic understanding of this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth
    In islam Allah(swt) tells us that he takes the soul on 2 occasions temporary when we go to sleep and permently when we die. here we see temporary the person is not dead yet his soul is not with him. Jesus(pbuh) also confirmed that when he went to the house to revive the woman that "died" and he said she is not dead she is asleep(meaning the soul is not with her but can be brought back to her if God allows it).
    Once again, how do you understand that the soul is taken temporarily when a person sleeps.

    You say later that a soul weighs 1-2 lbs, does that mean that a persons weight suddenly reduces by 1-2 lbs when they sleep and Allah takes the soul?
    And then increases in the morning? Also when does the soul leave the body and return when a person is sleeping, and where does this soul go?

    Also what are the references for this story about Jesus, would you please provide them?

    Quote Originally Posted by Luke 1:46-47
    And Mary said, My soul doth magnify the Lord,
    And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
    Strongs concordance states that the original words used are:
    psuche {psoo-khay'} for soul
    pneuma {pnyoo'-mah} for spirit

    Which are meant as:

    1) psuche is pretty clearly meant as soul, as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)

    2) the spirit, i.e. the vital principal by which the body is animated
    the rational spirit, the power by which the human being feels, thinks, decides
    Ofcourse it doesnt take much to realise that this seizes as soon as a person dies, I would say think of it as life force

    Quote Originally Posted by James 5:20
    20Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.
    Once again the word used was psuche, which can only mean salvation from damnation, and ofcourse that comes from introducing him to the good news, the euangelion of the Kingdom of God.

    Thank you.

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    Default Re: Surah 15. Al-Hijr, Ayat 28-29, Question...

    As-Salaamu-Alaikum...

    Okay, at this juncture? I want to thank those of you, all two of you, who have contributed to this discussion. However, it is obvious to me that no one has an adeqaute answer, or is willing to offer such an answer, to the ACTUAL question at hand here: Does the essence of Allah, that which we as Muslims (non-Mulsims need not apply, LOL...) worship exist within the form of man as a result of what is written in the given ayat.

    Shukrun...

    As-Salaamu-Alaikum...

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    Al Abd Al Jabar hawk's Avatar
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    Default Re: Surah 15. Al-Hijr, Ayat 28-29, Question...

    Sorry one last point...

    Think about the ayat that asks the angels to prostrate (worship) before man.
    I am just saying there is huge room for interpretation and there are ahadith that talk specifically about man being created in the image and likeness of God.

    However remember God's name is love (Al Wadud) and to love means to serve....hence if we want to be true to our natures we must love and serve.

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    Default Re: Surah 15. Al-Hijr, Ayat 28-29, Question...

    Salam,
    Quote Originally Posted by Thetruth
    many tests done to prove the soul has about 1-2lb of weights, this was done before and after the person died
    All of the soul measuring tests conducted have proven exactly nothing. Dr. Duncan MacDougall (of Haverhill, Massachusetts) commenced a 4-year-long test series in 1907. Initially convinced that the human soul has weight, he had to concede in 1911. None of the conducted tests could prove any other weight loss than that of the measurable dehydration of the human exitus. Strangely, the test subjects displayed weight increase, if they displayed any change at all.

    Wa'salam,

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    Default Re: Surah 15. Al-Hijr, Ayat 28-29, Question...

    Salaam Bilal,

    It is not right, for any person, to say that the divine Essence of Allah, exists "within" anything. Words like, 'inside', 'outside', 'within' and 'without' have no meaning or reality, in the realm or context of the Essence. It is as it is.

    The verses where God breathes into man, something of His spirit, should not be taken too literally, in a physical/spatial sense. What can be said, and the basic meaning of that verse, is that God reflected some of His attributes onto the human creature. For example, one of God's names is Al-Hayy, The Living. Nothing possesses or owns the quality of 'life/living', by itself, independantly. Only God can claim to be The Living. So human life or being, does not exist by itself, independantly. Rather, it 'takes' or 'borrows', these qualities from the Creator. Just as the Sun is giving light, the moon is taking it and reflecting it. The moon cannot give light, by itself, independantly, it needs the Sun.


    "Gentleness does not enter anything except that it beautifies it and harshness does not enter anything except that it disfigures it."

    ~ Prophet Muhammad.



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