Judgement Day and Works: valueable without belief?

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,

i've recently been engaged in a very good dialog with several Christian friends concerning the nature of works and the Judgement Day and i am curious as to the Muslim view that may be shared in this regard.

there are two distinct views in this regard within the Christian tradition and, though we have some Christian members here and i am interested in their view, this thread is mainly to ask the Muslims their view.

so.. without further ado, here is the relevant bit from the question part of the ongoing conversation:

Rev 2:23And I will kill her children with death; and all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and hearts: and I will give unto every one of you according to your works.

Rev 20:12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is [the book] of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Rev 22:12And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward [is] with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.


so.. my question is thus:

how does one reconcile the fact that Revelations says that i'll be judged according to my works and not my faith in Jesus?

please be clear, this is not a question of Salvation. Salvation and Judgement are not the same and thus have different criteria and so forth.

naturally, i would expect Muslims to address the question from the view of Islam, not Christianity.

as such, i shall reword the question for this esteemed forum, thusly:

what is the value or impact of postive moral and ethical actions is one does not possess the corresponding belife in Allah during the Judgement?

certianly i understand that Allah, alone, knows these things, as such, i'm not asking for a binding opinion.. i am, however, asking for the view that the forum members have with regards to this topic.

thank you in advance for your time and answers

[Yahya Sulaiman]

We don't believe in the book of Revelation. It depicts Jesus (P) as a child-killing monster. The parts of the Bible we believe in are the parts that agree with the Koran, and the only thing in the entire book of Revelation that agrees with the Koran is that Gog and Magog will be involved with the end of the world in some way.

[hawk]

Vaj I think that is an excellent question.

I would like to point out that Christians believe that all good works are inspired by God, so faith without works, is no faith at all. One doesnt have to look terribly hard in the Bible to see this.

On the other hand, works without faith, would mean that YHWH is working incognito so to speak.
I think its hardly important to profess ones faith.

However I believe Christianity as a moral code is extraordinary. It doesnt really ask for good works, but tells you that you must exist perfectly.

I read somewhere a saying that goes "Every moment has the potential to be a perfect moment"
It is my belief that christianity is calling for that kind of awareness, an awareness of yourself that renders you a perfect being.

I am not aware of any other way of life that exhorts human beings to be like that.

[muhtadiyah]

Namaste Vajradhara,

This is a very good question, and one I've thought about. A brief answer would be to say that our deeds are the tangible fruit of our beliefs, the undeniable evidence of what is truly held in our hearts. But I also think there may be more to it than that.

I made a post some time ago that partly explains my thoughts. It's addressing a different question, but my answer has some relevence here, too. If you read this post it will help explain what I'm trying to say here.

Our deeds are the outward expression of our inward character. At the judgement, it is not in actuality our external deeds that are being weighed in the balance; they are just the evidence. It is our characters that are being measured; that compilation of vice and virtue, strength and and weakness, that we mould by our wills and intentions over the course of a lifetime. These are the things that last beyond death...not our intellect and emotions and other God-given capacities, but rather what we make of them; the ends to which we employ them is our true character; our selves.

We are given free-will and commanded to conform ourselves to the virtues of the Almighty; Love, Patience, Wisdom, Mercy, Compassion, Justice, etc. These are qualities of character. At the judgement God will sift our souls like sands through the fingers, searching for the qualities that belong to Him. That which belongs to God will be captured in His hand; it will return to God; that which is in opposition to God will fall and be repelled. This is Heaven and Hell. You have tailored your self to one or the other, and you will be magnetically drawn to the place where you belong.

When I stand before God laid naked and bare, and His Eye is focused on me as Light through a magnifying glass, what will be exposed? I will be known for what I truly am. My character will draw me upwards or plunge me downwards. In a sense, I bring with me my own reward and my own punishment. In a sense, I am my own reward and my own punishment.

peace,
muhtadiyah

[hawk]

We don't believe in the book of Revelation. It depicts Jesus (P) as a child-killing monster.

Misinterpretation of the highest order.

Why is it that no muslim will speak out against this?

Yet if I was to say something of the same nature about the Quran, and believe me I could, I would be warned, flamed and a hundred other things.

Please show me you are not hypocrites.

[muhtadiyah]

Salaam Yahya,

It might help if you could supply references for the remark Hawk is complaining about...I'm pretty familiar with Revelations and nothing of that sort comes to my mind.

peace,
muhtadiyah

[Vajradhara]

Namaste all,


thank you for a wide variety of views! i do appreciate it.

i suppose that it should be said that, for the sake of our conversation, i must accept certain premises that i actually do not hold to be correct. thus, some of the answers are a bit difficult to actually understand in any meaningful sense given my religous view of things....

It depicts Jesus (P) as a child-killing monster.

well.. i've had the chance to read it a bit more often than Al Qur'an, this is true, however, this is not my understanding of the text. perhaps, your view is more in line with a Protestant understanding of the New Testament?

On the other hand, works without faith, would mean that YHWH is working incognito so to speak.
I think its hardly important to profess ones faith.

interesting view. so, if i may ask the question bluntly.. is it your view that if a being like myself is engaged in skillful moral actions, say, feeding the hungry and housing the homeless, these "good" deeds are actually God working through me in some sense?

this is a view that i have heard expressed before by the B'ahai folks that i've talked with.

However I believe Christianity as a moral code is extraordinary. It doesnt really ask for good works, but tells you that you must exist perfectly.

I read somewhere a saying that goes "Every moment has the potential to be a perfect moment"
It is my belief that christianity is calling for that kind of awareness, an awareness of yourself that renders you a perfect being.

I am not aware of any other way of life that exhorts human beings to be like that.

telling a being to "exist perfectly" doesn't say a whole lot to me, unfortunately. what does "existing perfectly" actually mean? the water exists perfectly in the hole, doesn't it? i have been told that this is meant in a moral or ethical sense, i.e. that a being is morally perfect. are you meaning the term in the same manner?

Namaste Vajradhara

Namaste Muhtadiya

thank you for the reply.

[b]

muhtadiyah]

Our deeds are the outward expression of our inward character. At the judgement, it is not in actuality our external deeds that are being weighed in the balance; they are just the evidence. It is our characters that are being measured; that compilation of vice and virtue, strength and and weakness, that we mould by our wills and intentions over the course of a lifetime. These are the things that last beyond death...not our intellect and emotions and other God-given capacities, but rather what we make of them; the ends to which we employ them is our true character; our selves

for the most part, i can agree with your sentiments as expressed... till we get to the last bit.. though, perhaps even then.. sort of depending on your answer to this question...

do you believe that there is a permenantly existing self or soul?

[b]

muhtadiyah]

We are given free-will and commanded to conform ourselves to the virtues of the Almighty; Love, Patience, Wisdom, Mercy, Compassion, Justice, etc. These are qualities of character. At the judgement God will sift our souls like sands through the fingers, searching for the qualities that belong to Him. That which belongs to God will be captured in His hand; it will return to God; that which is in opposition to God will fall and be repelled. This is Heaven and Hell. You have tailored your self to one or the other, and you will be magnetically drawn to the place where you belong.

hmm.. i suppose that i would have to disagree with your initial premis in this paragraph.. i do not believe that humans have free will... we believe we have it, i'll conceed

this makes it sound as if there could be bits of a being that go to Heaven and bits that go to Hell, would that be a fair characterization of your view here?

other than not actually believing in a self or soul in any sort of permenant sense, Buddhists also have a difficult time accepting the idea of any sort of Judgement Day. in some sense, Karma can appear this way from the outside, however, it works on a completely different level, in our view of things.

this is, i submit, an area where Buddhism and theistic religions will have difficultly coming to an understanding of each others view.

When I stand before God laid naked and bare, and His Eye is focused on me as Light through a magnifying glass, what will be exposed? I will be known for what I truly am. My character will draw me upwards or plunge me downwards. In a sense, I bring with me my own reward and my own punishment. In a sense, I am my own reward and my own punishment.

i rather agree with your conclusion! see... we can find common ground when we try

[muhtadiyah]

this makes it sound as if there could be bits of a being that go to Heaven and bits that go to Hell, would that be a fair characterization of your view here?

Not quite... I believe there may be some sort of purging of souls before they enter Heaven, where the chaff is burned away and that which is eternal remains.

other than not actually believing in a self or soul in any sort of permenant sense, Buddhists also have a difficult time accepting the idea of any sort of Judgement Day. in some sense, Karma can appear this way from the outside, however, it works on a completely different level, in our view of things.

this is, i submit, an area where Buddhism and theistic religions will have difficultly coming to an understanding of each others view.

I don't know that much about Buddhism, though of what I know there are many things about it I find intriguing, and wisdom in what little I've read. However, the lack of 'God' really is a stumbling block to me, because my profound experience tells me that God Is; and all existence springs from Him. I can't fathom how one would attempt to measure the universe without factoring God into the equation.

peace,
muhtadiyah

[hawk]

interesting view. so, if i may ask the question bluntly.. is it your view that if a being like myself is engaged in skillful moral actions, say, feeding the hungry and housing the homeless, these "good" deeds are actually God working through me in some sense?

this is a view that i have heard expressed before by the B'ahai folks that i've talked with.

We are here to serve (at least in the Christian paradigm), not to reign, but to serve.
We are creations of God, and God serves us, and so in His tradition we too must serve each other.
Lets put it bluntly, there is absoltuely no reason for us to exist, if one believes in a creator deity, there is no reason for Him to tolerate us in any way.
But God is love, and love is expressed in service. So we must serve, each other and every other sentient being.

It would indeed be my view, and it is a view that is in accordance with most of Christianity I believe not just bahai, since I know very little about them

telling a being to "exist perfectly" doesn't say a whole lot to me, unfortunately. what does "existing perfectly" actually mean? the water exists perfectly in the hole, doesn't it? i have been told that this is meant in a moral or ethical sense, i.e. that a being is morally perfect. are you meaning the term in the same manner?

Existing perfectly is living harmoniously with your surrounding, its a hard concept to explain.
like a man sits motionless by the river of life, and many things flow by, and when there is an experience he wants to encounter, he waits, not moving, to encounter it, and waiting for it to encounter him. then as it passes him by he drinks from the river of life.
He acts according to his desires, not reacts to them.

I know you do not believe in a "self", but in Christianity the idea, is to empty ones self of ones self (i dont know if that means anything to you) and to let God (again something that probably means nothing to you) fill you up. (Theosis)

[Yahya Sulaiman]

hawk: I'm done talking to you--about anything. Not just anything can make me quit, but I quit. I've done everything I can for you, but your words remain a constant stream of unsupported claims, ad hominem attacks about my psychological history and profile--all false accusations of things you couldn't possibly know even if they were true--willful forgetfulness of disproven points brought up again and again and again and again...I give up with you. Sorry.

muhtadiya, the reference is Revelation 2:20-23.

Vaj: I don't have a "Protestant" view of anything, nor any other Christian kind, not being a Christian. While I did learn the Bible from Protestants, I interpret things using reason and knowledge alone, as best I can, for everything.

[Vajradhara]

Namaste muhtadiyah,

thank you for the post.

.I don't know that much about Buddhism, though of what I know there are many things about it I find intriguing, and wisdom in what little I've read. However, the lack of 'God' really is a stumbling block to me, because my profound experience tells me that God Is; and all existence springs from Him. I can't fathom how one would attempt to measure the universe without factoring God into the equation.

peace,
muhtadiyah

well... perhaps the first thing that i can say that where we Buddhist types are concerned, we don't have alot of interest in measuring the universe

perhaps the easiest, but by no mean easy, method of understanding what we are on about in this sense is to use an analogy. our view of phenomena is that they are constantly in a state of flux or transition. our perception of an object may make it seem as if the object is not changing, like when we look at a mountain. however, were we able to foucs our perception more fine, we'd discover that, at the atomic level (heck, even more gross than that, really) not only is the mountain changing, but we can't even find any bit of all that changing information that is "mountain".

so, in a sense, our paradigm is of a continual becoming, a constant process of arising and ceasing which, when we look for it, a beginning of which cannot be found.

in one sense Buddhism asks the being that hears it to consider what if there is no God, would you still behave ethically and morally? some beings will and some beings will not behave ethically and morally without a concept of a Creator God that sits in Judgement upon our deeds. for those beings, we Buddhists are quite happy that they have found a religious path that encourages positive moral and ethical actions.

as a very technical point... and, it is so technical that i am not sure how wise it is to even make it... suffice it to say that much of our rejection of certain ideas and concepts has to do with how they are forumlated and the underlying a priori concpets upon which such ideas are founded.

[hawk]

I knew that you were referring to Jezebel.

1)
You know very well that it was not a literal person Jesus is talking about, it is extremely unlikely that anyone would be named Jezebel in Thyatira, since it is in modern day Turkey, where they spoke greek and would not have named anyone Jezebel. Besides, remember, that Jezebel ever since the bad one, is not a good name for a daugther. One must assume that the verse is not talking about a specific woman.

2)
The verse is simply refering to the followers of this spiritual misleader as children, in that is the reference to killing children, and the death being spoken of should be interpretted as spiritual death.

I am asking you, please
I dont know what you have been through, but at the very least, try not to post obviously incorrectly and malevolently

[Vajradhara]

Namaste Yahya,

thank you for the post.

Vaj: I don't have a "Protestant" view of anything, nor any other Christian kind, not being a Christian. While I did learn the Bible from Protestants, I interpret things using reason and knowledge alone, as best I can, for everything.

hmm... well... i suppose that what i was asking was if you were educated in Catholic Theology or only Protestant Theology, which would predispose you towards certain understandings of the Old and New Testaments. granted, you are not a Christian so perhaps the question is now moot.

[Thetruth]

Namaste all,

i've recently been engaged in a very good dialog with several Christian friends concerning the nature of works and the Judgement Day and i am curious as to the Muslim view that may be shared in this regard.
...........................

Salam

from an Islamic point of view nothing is accepted to God from anyone who does not believe in him what we call in Islam major sin(association anything with God) is that when you do work for others instead of God is like pouring the deeds in the river a waste
Allah(SWT)
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"Those who reject (disbelieves in) Allah, hinder (men) from the Path of Allah and OPPOSE the Apostle after Guidance has been clearly shown to them will not injure Allah in the least but He (Allah) will make their DEEDS FRUITLESS. O ye who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Apostle and MAKE NOT VAIN YOUR DEEDS. Those who reject Allah and hinder (men) from the Path of Allah then die rejecting Allah, Allah will not forgive them." Q47:32-34
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Any work done for men is or will be rewarded by men any work done for God is or will be rewarded by God.
let me explain
When you are doing good work for others you would expect a reward no matter who you are because the nature of humanity is that nothing is done for free so you go out and do charity in order to feel good see here to feel good is your reward or in order to show off or to gain a position in other word you expect a reward a salary etc... same in the hearafter believers worship God in order to gain a reward which is heaven
Allah(swt)
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"To those who believe and do deeds of righteousness hath Allah promised forgiveness and a great reward" (Surah 5:9).
"And He answers those who believe and do good deeds, and gives them more out of His grace; and (as for) the unbelievers, they shall have a severe punishment," (42:26, online, trans. by M.H. Shakir).
"O you who believe! If you are careful of (your duty to) Allah, He will grant you a distinction and do away with your evils and forgive you; and Allah is the Lord of mighty grace," (8:29, online, trans. by M.H. Shakir).
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here we see two conditions attached before God to accept them.
sometimes a person can be very good but forgets about himself and us Humans would say it has being taken for a ride in other words gave everything but recieved nothing.
Finally a good question can be raised?
can a person who is so evil repent and accept God?
yes in Islam we were told a prostitute was sent to heaven because she cared for a animal because God is most merciful
A man who was so bad that he ordered his kids to burn his body when he died and threw his ashes everywhere because he was so scared that God will not forgive him yet he was accepted in heaven because God is most merciful
A good person ended up going to hell simply because she left her cat starving
you can conclude that It is up to God to forgive or accept anyone as long as the subject truelly believe that there is no God but one and accept all his messengers with no distinction between them

[Vajradhara]

Namaste the truth,

thank you for the response, sorry for the tardy reply.

Salam

from an Islamic point of view nothing is accepted to God from anyone who does not believe in him what we call in Islam major sin(association anything with God) is that when you do work for others instead of God is like pouring the deeds in the river a waste
Allah(SWT)

so, your view is that if a being engages in positive moral and ethical actions, devoid of a belief in Allah, these deeds are not recorded? i seem to recall a conversation wherein an opposite view was brought forth.. namely, that all beings deeds will be what the Judgement is based upon. actually, this is a fairly fine point in Islamic jurisprudence which i'm having a difficult time getting a clear answer on.

it seems, in some places, to indicate that ones judgement is predicated upon their actions, however, only actions which are for Allah are counted as positive. so, this would mean that curing polio, for instance, was not a positive action since it was to benefit humans and not Allah, per se.

Any work done for men is or will be rewarded by men any work done for God is or will be rewarded by God.

what about when we engage in postive moral and ethical actions for other creatures which are not humans or gods?

let me explain
When you are doing good work for others you would expect a reward

then this wouldn't be what we Buddhist types would consider to be a positive moral or ethical action. such actions are engaged in without the idea of a reward, by any agent.

no matter who you are because the nature of humanity is that nothing is done for free

perhaps you misunderstand our idea of karma we are engaging in positive moral and ethical actions to produce positive results in our karma. should we engage in negative moral and ethical actions, we produce a negative result. truly, though, we would typically use the terms "skillful" and "unskillful" to characterize this sort of activity.

so you go out and do charity in order to feel good

i would submit that this isn't what i would consider to be the proper motivating influence for an act of charity. such things, in my view, are done from a sense of selflessness, of connection to other beings. compassion, in other words.

see here to feel good is your reward or in order to show off or to gain a position in other word you expect a reward a salary etc... same in the hearafter believers worship God in order to gain a reward which is heaven
Allah(swt)

oh. well... i do not engage in postive moral and ethical actions with the idea of any sort of material reward, nor do i have much interest in worldly fame or profit, none of that is of benefit during the Bardo of Becoming.

here we see two conditions attached before God to accept them.
sometimes a person can be very good but forgets about himself and us Humans would say it has being taken for a ride in other words gave everything but recieved nothing.

these verses seem to affirm my previous conclusion that it is both works and belief which are necessary for a positive judgement from Allah. works, by themselves, even if postive, are not counted unless accompanied by belief. is that your understanding as well?

Finally a good question can be raised?
can a person who is so evil repent and accept God?

i do not understand "so evil". can you explain it differently?

yes in Islam we were told a prostitute was sent to heaven because she cared for a animal because God is most merciful
A man who was so bad that he ordered his kids to burn his body when he died and threw his ashes everywhere because he was so scared that God will not forgive him yet he was accepted in heaven because God is most merciful
A good person ended up going to hell simply because she left her cat starving
you can conclude that It is up to God to forgive or accept anyone as long as the subject truelly believe that there is no God but one and accept all his messengers with no distinction between them

if there are conditions for acceptance, then it is not free. does not Islam promote the concept of free will? perhaps it does not do so in the same manner as the other Abrahamic faiths, i really cannot say. it seems odd that it would not... but, there it is.

metta,

~v