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Thread: Should we all be following the new Caliph?

  1. #1
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    Default Should we all be following the new Caliph?

    This forum seems to be surprisingly silent on whether or not we should be following the new Caliph and his call to arms.

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    Default Re: Should we all be following the new Caliph?

    Why?

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    Default Re: Should we all be following the new Caliph?

    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: Should we all be following the new Caliph?

    Here is the hadith quoted in the article, I'll quote it here:
    "When you see the black flags, remain where you are and do not move your hands or your feet (this is an Arabic phrase meaning: 'Stay put and do not get involved in the fighting'). Thereafter there shall appear a feeble folk to whom no concern is given. Their hearts will be like fragments of iron. They are the representatives of the State. They will fulfill neither covenant nor agreement. They will invite to the Truth, though they are not from its people. Their names will be agnomens [i.e., Abu Mus'ab, Abu Bakr, etc.], and their ascriptions will be to villages (or places) [i.e., al-Misri, al-Harrani, al-Baghdadi, etc.]. Their hair will be long like that of women. [They shall remain so] till they differ among themselves, and then God will bring forth the Truth from whomever He wills."

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    Default Re: Should we all be following the new Caliph?

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    Why?
    Why not? We all yearn for the return of the Caliphate.

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    Default Re: Should we all be following the new Caliph?

    So anyone can declare to be Caliph and we should follow?

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    Default Re: Should we all be following the new Caliph?

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    So anyone can declare to be Caliph and we should follow?
    Not necessarily. But if you don't, and you happen to live in Mosul, you might well be executed, and worse, you might lose your fingertips! "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieve. Therefore strike off their heads and strike off every fingertip of them". (8:12)

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    Default Re: Should we all be following the new Caliph?

    Well, then I'm glad I don't live in Mosul.

    As for the verse it is not right to just pluck verse out in any book without the context.

    Context explained here:

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    Default Re: Should we all be following the new Caliph?

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    Well, then I'm glad I don't live in Mosul.

    As for the verse it is not right to just pluck verse out in any book without the context.

    Context explained here:
    That so-called 'context' is fanciful and typical of what we see in all religions (including Christianity and Judaism) where people jump through hoops to try to explain away the plain language of their scriptures. Apparently, the Caliph is adhering more closely to the plain language and does not agree with your 'context'. So I'm also glad for you that you don't live in Mosul!

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    Default Re: Should we all be following the new Caliph?

    Self proclaimed Caliph is not adhering to the plain language of Quran in full, and neither is your half-baked interpretation. Quran verses are clear in plain language no harm to no-combatants and force shouldn't be in excess, and that was the Sunnah of the prophet (pbuh) which the video clearly states.

    I pray for your guidance to God/Allah!

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    Default Re: Should we all be following the new Caliph?

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    Self proclaimed Caliph is not adhering to the plain language of Quran in full, and neither is your half-baked interpretation. Quran verses are clear in plain language no harm to no-combatants and force shouldn't be in excess, and that was the Sunnah of the prophet (pbuh) which the video clearly states.

    I pray for your guidance to God/Allah!
    I have not interpreted that verse at all, merely paraphrased its plain language: "I will cast terror into the hearts of those who disbelieved, so strike [them] upon the necks and strike from them every fingertip." (8:12, Sahih International). There is absolutely nothing in Surat Al-'Anfal that mitigates that plain language. Of course, the Quran is full of contradictory statements, as is the OT and NT, so anyone can find something in any of these texts to justify nearly anything they want to do, and justify it in the name of a "god".

    Since the Quran is internally contradictory, your statement that the "Caliph is not adhering to the plain language of Quran in full" is a tautology. Its contradictions make it impossible for anyone to adhere to the Quran in full.

    Regarding your claim that the Quran is clear that "force shouldn't be in excess": do you believe that 100 lashes is not excessive for an unmarried person who has sexual intercourse? (24:2)

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    Default Re: Should we all be following the new Caliph?

    You are ignoring all the other verses on the issue. There is no contradiction if you have studied the Quran and sunnah on these issues and how those were applied by Prophet and early Caliphs. I can't spell it more slowly for you: no harm to combatants and no excess in force (which video explained it clearly).

    Your intercourse punishment question is separate issue it wasn't given to communities (e.g. non-muslim) who didn't agreed to the Islamic penal code. And lashes punishment is not immutable under sharia, so you are comparing oranges with apples.
    Obvious example from early Caliphs: Muslims were punished for consumption of alcohol but non-muslims were not as this was not against the norms and rules of their community.

    I doubt you have watched the video, it is like talking to wall, this my last reply to you.

    But God can change hearts! :]
    Peace!

    Dr Brown has some good lectures on these issues, for a start here are two:
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8gZVoDYLeMg
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qmMsxNCX0KM
    Last edited by hyd; 12th July 2014 at 10:56. Reason: typo

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    Default Re: Should we all be following the new Caliph?

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    . . .

    I doubt you have watched the video, it is like talking to wall, this my last reply to you.

    But God can change hearts! :]
    Peace!
    I have watched the video. It is a fanciful apologetic.

    But education can change minds! Spend a few years studying science and you might find that you no longer need to cling to your primitive beliefs in invisible magical spirits. Peace to you as well!

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    Default Re: Should we all be following the new Caliph?

    In regard to verse 8:12, there is no need for "fanciful apologetics". The verses themselves provide their own contextand it is documented history of a military conflict in which the Muslims were aggressed upon. Every nation has the right to defend itself.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 12th July 2014 at 04:46.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

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    Default Re: Should we all be following the new Caliph?

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    In regard to verse 8:12, there is no need for "fanciful apologetics". The verses themselves provide their own contextand it is documented history of a military conflict in which the Muslims were aggressed upon. Every nation has the right to defend itself.
    Perhaps the "context" to which you are referring is in 8:30, 18 verses after the verse in question. But even accepting your point, wouldn't the entire surah then provide the current Caliph perfect justification for cutting off the heads and fingertips of those who are fighting him?

    And, by the way, why is Allah commanding Muslims to mutilate the bodies of the beheaded unbelievers by cutting off their fingertips?

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