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Thread: The Ka'abah

  1. #16
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    Default Re: The Ka'abah

    As for the video man, Christians are not bound by a direction of prayer, but Muslims are. The heavens are God's throne and the earth is His foot stool He fills all heaven and earth with His glory and presence. What place can we built for Him to dwell or what direction can we face that would make Him hear better?
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  2. #17
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    Default Re: The Ka'abah

    Most Christian and even Jews has lost the concept of contact (salat) prayers. But still there are more Jewish sects that still practice it and some Orthodox Christians found closer to Jerusalem:

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    The Jews reject Jesus as their Messiah so they are out of the picture to model anything for us Christians. The Coptic Christians seem to have already gone astray. They have failed to heed Jesus' warning that we should beware lest by the tradition of men we make the laws of God to no effect. There are many Christian cults in the world still today. That is what the video reminded me of.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  4. #19
    Veteran Member lumumba_s's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Ka'abah

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    As for the video man, Christians are not bound by a direction of prayer, but Muslims are. The heavens are God's throne and the earth is His foot stool He fills all heaven and earth with His glory and presence. What place can we built for Him to dwell or what direction can we face that would make Him hear better?
    "Unto Allah belong the East and the West, and whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah's Countenance. Lo! Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing." (Qur'an 2:115)
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

  5. #20
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    Default Re: The Ka'abah

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    "Unto Allah belong the East and the West, and whithersoever ye turn, there is Allah's Countenance. Lo! Allah is All-Embracing, All-Knowing." (Qur'an 2:115)
    So, basically this verse is saying what I said in a different way; so, I know this, and my God gives me the liberty to face any direction I want, because He has set me free. As written in the Scriptures, "Whom the son sets free is free indeed!" We have it made in the shade

    IOW, we are not slaves. Slaves have to worship the way their god wants and the direction he wants, or do what their boss tells even if their heart is not in it. They are not free, but we are free to express love to our God in any direction and not because we have to; it is because we want to. That is one difference between freedom and slavery
    Last edited by Burninglight; 10th February 2014 at 00:51.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  6. #21
    Veteran Member lumumba_s's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Ka'abah

    And I quoted it as a response to your ill-informed, theologically absurdist view of ritual, both then and now. And what our leigelord `Isa was referring to (as attributed to him in the verse you cited) is freedom from sin, not freedom from the worship of God according to the modes and ways in which He has prescribed for us. `Isa himself bowed, knelled and prostrated in his worship just like the angels, prophets of old and the prophet which succeeded him (Allah bless him and give him peace).
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

  7. #22
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    Default Re: The Ka'abah

    Quote Originally Posted by lumumba_s View Post
    And I quoted it as a response to your ill-informed, theologically absurdist view of ritual, both then and now. And what our leigelord `Isa was referring to (as attributed to him in the verse you cited) is freedom from sin, not freedom from the worship of God according to the modes and ways in which He has prescribed for us. `Isa himself bowed, knelled and prostrated in his worship just like the angels, prophets of old and the prophet which succeeded him (Allah bless him and give him peace).
    Jesus said, God is Spirit and those that worship Him must do so in spirit and in truth, and that has nothing to do with the direction we face or the position we take or how clean our body must be out of the shower. You are right about it being freedom from sin, but it is also freedom from legalism! BTW, freedom from sin is not possible without Jesus. He said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He," And with that, I say goodnight.

    Peace
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  8. #23
    Veteran Member lumumba_s's Avatar
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    Default Re: The Ka'abah

    Let us quote what you did not in the other thread which speaks of this "legalism" from which we were all allegedly freed. And to my point about your lack of sound reasoning: you admit that Gentiles were under no obligation to follow the law in the first place, so what relevancy is there for someone like me of being freed from something that I was never under any obligation to follow?

    Psalm 119

    1 Blessed are those whose ways are blameless,
    who walk according to the law of the Lord.
    2 Blessed are those who keep his statutes
    and seek him with all their heart—
    3 they do no wrong
    but follow his ways.

    4 You have laid down precepts
    that are to be fully obeyed.
    5 Oh, that my ways were steadfast
    in obeying your decrees!
    6 Then I would not be put to shame
    when I consider all your commands.

    7 I will praise you with an upright heart
    as I learn your righteous laws.
    8 I will obey your decrees;
    do not utterly forsake me....

    (And after about 100+ more verses which praise the law and those who follow it, the verses pick up where you left off and completely ignored the implications of the first half of the very verse you cited.)

    165 Great peace have those who love your law,
    and nothing can make them stumble.
    166 I wait for your salvation, Lord,
    and I follow your commands.
    167 I obey your statutes,
    for I love them greatly.
    168 I obey your precepts and your statutes,
    for all my ways are known to you.

    169 May my cry come before you, Lord;
    give me understanding according to your word.
    170 May my supplication come before you;
    deliver me according to your promise.
    171 May my lips overflow with praise,
    for you teach me your decrees.
    172 May my tongue sing of your word,
    for all your commands are righteous.
    173 May your hand be ready to help me,
    for I have chosen your precepts.
    174 I long for your salvation, Lord,
    and your law gives me delight.
    175 Let me live that I may praise you,
    and may your laws sustain me.

    176 I have strayed like a lost sheep.
    Seek your servant,
    for I have not forgotten your commands.



    ***

    But alas, you cry "legalism" for people who maintain such a holistic belief in the letter and spirit of the law which was revealed by God and the very verses you quote cry lie to your claims; you decry, denounce and demean the very law you believe God revealed. It is a well-known fact of history that the early Christian Church in Jerusalem (the original Jewish followers of the original Jewish disciples) maintained the law and remained practicing Jews while still maintaining a belief in the prophet-hood and messiah-ship of `Isa ibn Maryam, as is born out by Acts itself. So while you can give all the esoteric interpretations you want to `Isa insisting that he came to uphold the law, your position would have been considered heretical to the original followers of the Christ and that you deem people to be part of a cult who follow the example and pray as `Isa prayed speaks volumes about your understanding. To suggest that the people who hand trained, keep the company of, and originally preached the message of the Messiah were fundamentally mistaken in their understanding is completely absurd and the very definition of heresy.

    Despite the fact that "John" is an anonymous Gospel, falsely ascribed to John the Apostle, "You will die in your sin unless you believe that I am he" (i.e., the Son of Man). Or as we would say, "There is no god but God and Jesus is His messenger" anything less for the Jews at the time was disbelief. `Isa was sent to the Lost Sheep of the House of Israel as their Messiah. And contrary to your claims said, "Whoever goes against the smallest of the laws of Moses, teaching men to do the same, will be named least in the kingdom of heaven; but he who keeps the Law of Moses, teaching others to keep them, will be named great in the kingdom of heaven." That is a clear statement. According to your claims, Jesus himself is condemned. By his, Paul is, along with all those who express the false teachings you have presented here. Have a nice day.
    Last edited by lumumba_s; 10th February 2014 at 08:54.
    "Allah is the point. If it is other-than-Allah, then it is besides the point." - Nuh Ha Mim Keller

  9. #24
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    Default Re: The Ka'abah

    God's two greatest commands that fulfill all the law and the prophets is not legalism. They are to love God with all your heart, mind and soul and your neighbor as yourself. On these two commands hang all the laws and prophets of God. Our freedom is to do what is right; it is not to do what we want.

    If you love your neighbor and God in this way, you will not steal from them; you will not kill your neighbor or sleep with his wife; you will not bear false witness and covet your neighbor's goods; you will honor your parents and not take the name of the Lord in vain or have any God's besides the one true God.

    Jesus fulfilled all the law on the cross, and through Him, we do too. That is what He meant by believing in Him or you'll die in your sin. We must believe that we are made right and justified from our sin through Him, or we are lost and bound to die in our sin, because like during the Passover, those houses not covered by the blood of the lamb, we too would experience spiritual death in a Christless eternity. I believe Jesus is who said He is, and I know Satan doesn't want people to believe He is our Savior and only hope of glory.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 10th February 2014 at 19:05.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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