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Thread: The Ka'abah

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    Default The Ka'abah

    Do Muslims realize their actions speaker louder than their words. Judaism is more ancient than Christianity, and Christianity is more ancient than Islam, but of these two great ancient groups in the Abrahamic faith that worship one God, they never bowed to the idol of the Ka'abah much less kissed a black stone.

    Muslims accuse Christians of idolatry, but aren't they the real idol worshippers who curse the true seed of Abraham and attempt to subjugate them as is written in Muhammad's Quran (S 9: 29,30), and as his religion (Islam) hypocritically states: "There is no compulsion in religion?"

    Is Islam's enemy truth and knowledge? is its ally or friend ignorance and deception? I mean no Muslim insult, but aren't you Muslims headed in the wrong direction?

    "Come out from among them says the Lord and don't touch the unclean thing"

    Peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 1st February 2014 at 20:08.
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    Judaism never bowed to, nor kissed a cross. It didnt worship a trinity or god called Jesus, it follows that Christianity is false? What was the religion of Noah and Abraham?

    The Quran never calls Christianity an idolatry. This is what Judaism does, even today. On the other hand, the "ancient" religion of Judaism sees in Islam the manifestation of God's promise of blessings to Ishmael, and the only religion along with Noachidsm that can earn non-Jews success in the hereafter, because they see in both of these "gentile religions" a complete compatibility with their universal spiritual principles (the principles of the Torah that are outside of the mosaic laws but are nevertheless binding on all of humanity). So again, in line with your reasoning that the criteria and practices of an "ancient" system determines whether the "new" system is authentic, does this mean that Christianity is a false religion?

    The Quran verse you misinterpreted does not address the people of the book in general and as to your NT quote, which is actually one of many misquotes of the OT, it originally addresses the Israelites in their captivity, telling them to avoid all unclean things and purify themselves. Christians, contrary to Jesus' teachings do not avoid the "unclean things" (certain animals being among those things) nor do they purify themselves like Jesus and past prophets did. So again, in line with your reasoning that the criteria and practices of an "ancient" system determines whether the "new" system is authentic, does this mean that Christianity is a false religion?
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Judaism never bowed to, nor kissed a cross. It didnt worship a trinity or god called Jesus, it follows that Christianity is false? What was the religion of Noah and Abraham? ]
    That is because the Jews didn't understand that Jesus was and is the culmination of Judaism. The Jews equally reject Islam. Now, we have two of the greatest Abrahamic faiths that didn't bow to the Ka'abah. Supposedly, the Ka'abah was built by Abraham, but the fulfillment of the cross hadn't happened yet as prophesied in Isaiah 53 and the many types and shadows before the fact. The Jews don't deny Jesus was crucified nor do the Christians, but Islam stands alone on this, and that was one of the points I was trying to make. The religion of Abraham and Noah wasn't Islam. Theirs was a religion that justified them by faith. It was a religion that was leading them to Christ the final message of God! Now, I said message not messenger for a good reason. Islam doesn't know why Jesus had to have been born of a virgin, but Christianity has the answer to that borrowed fact.
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    The Quran never calls Christianity an idolatry. This is what Judaism does, even today. On the other hand, the "ancient" religion of Judaism sees in Islam the manifestation of God's promise of blessings to Ishmael, and the only religion along with Noachidsm that can earn non-Jews success in the hereafter, because they see in both of these "gentile religions" a complete compatibility with their universal spiritual principles (the principles of the Torah that are outside of the mosaic laws but are nevertheless binding on all of humanity). ]
    Sure Islam calls Christianity idolatry, but Judaism puts Islam in the same rejection box as Christianity. The blessing to Ishmael is all it was, but he was rejected by God and Abraham as the child of promise. This means no prophets come out of him. So Muhammad is still waiting for his prophet passport! Don't even attempt to use NT Scripture to say it spoke of Muhammad as the spirit of truth. No Christian or Jew will go there with you. You are on your own again!

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    So again, in line with your reasoning that the criteria and practices of an "ancient" system determines whether the "new" system is authentic, does this mean that Christianity is a false religion?]
    No, because Christianity is not a false religion. The Jews missed the mark by rejecting Jesus as their Messiah, and the Muslims missed it by rejecting Him as our only hope and Savior.


    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    The Quran verse you misinterpreted does not address the people of the book in general and as to your NT quote, which is actually one of many misquotes of the OT, it originally addresses the Israelites in their captivity, telling them to avoid all unclean things and purify themselves. Christians, contrary to Jesus' teachings do not avoid the "unclean things" (certain animals being among those things) nor do they purify themselves like Jesus and past prophets did. So again, in line with your reasoning that the criteria and practices of an "ancient" system determines whether the "new" system is authentic, does this mean that Christianity is a false religion?
    Jesus said, "It is not what goes into a man that defiles him; it is what comes out of him." The kingdom of heaven is not meat or drink, but righteousness, peace and love in the Holy Spirit. The Bible speaks of love; it shows us God loves us and Jesus tells us to love even our enemies. Where is this love in Muhammad's Quran. It is written, though I have great faith and speak with the tongues of men and angels and have not love, I am nothing. Does this mean Islam is nothing or a false religion?

    Peace be unto you
    Last edited by Burninglight; 3rd February 2014 at 12:35.
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    Default Re: The Ka'abah

    Brother Nouman talks about verses from Chapter 2 in the Qur'an about the change of prayer direction from Jerusalem to Makkah


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    Default Re: The Ka'abah

    There are 2 promises that Abraham's seed is given in the Torah in Genesis 17:
    - a blessed nation as numerous as stars in the sky
    - that Ishmael "might live before the Lord"

    It goes without saying to whom among Abraham's progeny or anyone claiming descendancy from him, the first promise applies to. As to the second promise, the quoted terminology implies, as anyone familiar with the OT and rabinic comentaries; total dedication and fear of God. The way that last promise manifested itself was in the establishement of the Kaaba by both Ibrahim and Ismail, and the latter's settlement at the temple. This reality, forgotten and omitted by the OT that cannot explain how did Ishmael "live before the Lord", is depicted in the Quran 2:123-9,14:35-41 as well as Muslim tradition. As the settlement grew, it remained an isolated, seasonal city, far from any trading route.
    Islam made it known to the world, obviously as it spread beyond Arabia. Prior to that, its importance, greatness and historicity was confined to the Arabs and their oral tradition. When it was built by Abraham, who had the habit of building worship sites along his journeys as even stated in the OT, it wasnt meant to be the universal qibla at its onset but later on during the mission of the last prophet sent to humanity. It was initially a monotheistic settlement, from where God would manifest his promises of blessings to Ismail and his seed, the place where per Abraham's words in the OT Ishmael "might live before the Lord".

    But back to the zealot's line of reasoning. The OT prophets never worshiped a trinity, nor directed their worship to specific personalities like Jesus, Mary, holyghost. Since authority belongs to what comes first then it follows that Christianity is a false religion, who in addition and contrary to past prophets including Jesus' teachings and actions, touches the "unclean things" which includes certain foods? What was the religion of Abraham who submitted to God by preparing his only son for the sacrifice, and who was per James (Jesus' borther)' words was "justified by what he does and not by faith alone"? What was Noah's religion who was bound to follow and submit to what is now knows as the Noachide laws?

    Islam doesnt call Christianity an idolatry, despite the zealot's insistence. And Judaism sees in Islam, which it certainly doesnt "put in the same box as Christianity", and Noachidsm exactly what i said it sees; the only 2 acceptible religions to non-Jews that can earn them salvation in the hereafter.

    As to the nonsense of no prophets coming outside the line of Isaac, or Islam's supposed misrepresentation of the virgin birth, anyone can go there and there
    Last edited by naderM; 3rd February 2014 at 17:32.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: The Ka'abah

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    The way that last promise manifested itself was in the establishement of the Kaaba by both Ibrahim and Ismail. . . .
    It is certainly curious that there is no mention of the Kaaba in the OT. And, of course, there is no historical evidence outside the Quran and the haadith that Abraham built the Kaaba. It seems far more likely that Mohammed made this up in order to give his new religion greater legitimacy.

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    And Judaism sees in Islam, which it certainly doesnt "put in the same box as Christianity", and Noachidsm exactly what i said it sees; the only 2 acceptible religions to non-Jews that can earn them salvation in the hereafter.
    While I understand that this is not particularly relevant to your point (which is well taken), it continues to be a mystery to me how people remain so focused on "salvation in the hereafter" when there is no testable proof whatsoever that anyone, ever, has been "saved" in the "hereafter".

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    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    There are 2 promises that Abraham's seed is given in the Torah in Genesis 17:
    - a blessed nation as numerous as stars in the sky
    - that Ishmael "might live before the Lord"

    It goes without saying to whom among Abraham's progeny or anyone claiming descendancy from him, the first promise applies to. As to the second promise, the quoted terminology implies, as anyone familiar with the OT and rabinic comentaries; total dedication and fear of God. The way that last promise manifested itself was in the establishement of the Kaaba by both Ibrahim and Ismail, and the latter's settlement at the temple. This reality, forgotten and omitted by the OT that cannot explain how did Ishmael "live before the Lord", is depicted in the Quran 2:123-9,14:35-41 as well as Muslim tradition. As the settlement grew, it remained an isolated, seasonal city, far from any trading route.
    Islam made it known to the world, obviously as it spread beyond Arabia. Prior to that, its importance, greatness and historicity was confined to the Arabs and their oral tradition. When it was built by Abraham, who had the habit of building worship sites along his journeys as even stated in the OT, it wasnt meant to be the universal qibla at its onset but later on during the mission of the last prophet sent to humanity. It was initially a monotheistic settlement, from where God would manifest his promises of blessings to Ismail and his seed, the place where per Abraham's words in the OT Ishmael "might live before the Lord".]
    It was Abraham's wish for Ishmael to live before the Lord, but God said, "NO." You are trying to make the Scripture say what you want to believe. It appears that you are being a dishonest scholar pertaining to these Scriptures. Let's read the verses from the Scripture in context:

    18 And Abraham said to God, “Oh that Ishmael might live before you!” 19 God said, “No, but Sarah your wife shall bear you a son, and you shall call his name Isaac. I will establish my covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his offspring after him. 20 As for Ishmael, I have heard you; behold, I have blessed him and will make him fruitful and multiply him greatly. He shall father twelve princes, and I will make him into a great nation. 21 But I will establish my covenant with Isaac, whom Sarah shall bear to you at this time next year.”
    I rest my case on this! You have been debunked!
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    But back to the zealot's line of reasoning. The OT prophets never worshiped a trinity, nor directed their worship to specific personalities like Jesus, Mary, holyghost. Since authority belongs to what comes first then it follows that Christianity is a false religion, who in addition and contrary to past prophets including Jesus' teachings and actions, touches the "unclean things" which includes certain foods? What was the religion of Abraham who submitted to God by preparing his only son for the sacrifice, and who was per James (Jesus' borther)' words was "justified by what he does and not by faith alone"? What was Noah's religion who was bound to follow and submit to what is now knows as the Noachide laws?]
    Maybe you are not familiar with the verse where three men came to visit Abraham and he referred to the three as "Lord." Notice he didn't say lords. So go figure.
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Islam doesnt call Christianity an idolatry, despite the zealot's insistence. And Judaism sees in Islam, which it certainly doesnt "put in the same box as Christianity", and Noachidsm exactly what i said it sees; the only 2 acceptible religions to non-Jews that can earn them salvation in the hereafter.]
    I don't care about this; the point I am making is they reject Muhammad and his Quran and so does Christianity. IMO, one rejection is just as good as another in this case.

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    As to the nonsense of no prophets coming outside the line of Isaac, or Islam's supposed misrepresentation of the virgin birth, anyone can go there and there
    There is no nonsense about it concerning Ishmael. Moreover, I am not saying they cannot come outside the line of Isaac; I am saying that no prophets come out of Ishmael, because God said, "NO." With all due respect, what is it about "NO" you don't understand? You have been pawned and debunked again, but you are loved.

    Peace be unto you!
    Last edited by Burninglight; 3rd February 2014 at 20:02.
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    Verse 20 says "As for Ishmael, I have heard you..". So God heard and accepted.

    Among the Christian translations, some start the verse 19 with "yes", others dont say neither "yes" nor "no" see there. But all this is besides the point since anyone can lookup this renowned translation of the Hebrew bible from the Jewish orthodox "Judaica press" http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true, it also contains rabbinic comentaries from the famous Rashi saying exactly what i previously said about the terminology of "living before the Lord" as well as God's acceptance of that request from Abraham.

    As to the Genesis 18 verse the evangelical zealot is timidly refering to, firstly, none can and has ever seen God according to both the OT and NT Ex33:20,Jn1:17. Second, the angels sent by Yahweh are sometimes addressed as "Yahweh" in many OT verses, simply because they spoke for him. Note it well that Jesus is never called Yahweh.

    Many facts including the above mentionned ones negate the trinitarian reading of that verse, which i wont get into in details. But briefly, another interesting observation is that contrary to what trinitarians want, there are 4 characters in Gen18, not 3.
    18:1 says God appears. Then three strangers (who are angels) turn up in line 2 (God has laready appeared before). Abraham asks them to stop and he offers them food. Besides basic chronology, another thing making it clear that V1 and v2 are referring to separate occurrences is that in v22 the "men" were completely separate from God "the men turned away and went toward Sodom, but Abraham remained standing before the LORD."

    So now it is Judaism's rejection of prophethood that is the standard for truth? This will put the zealot friend deeper in that muddy pond he cant get himself out of, since Jesus and many other prophets as related both in the OT and NT were rejected, persecuted or killed yet they were true prophets. Many Jews, including the most learned among them, as related in both Quranic and non Quranic sources, accepted the prophethood of Muhammad and those that rejected him didnt do so for racial reasons although the bestowal of prophethood outside of their fold did cause them anger and jealousy, but because essentialy he, like Jesus and countless others as related in both the OT and NT, brought a message that wasnt to their liking. Others could not but admit the prophethood of Muhammad since he fulfills the criteria laid down in the OT itself, but are not ready to compromise their wrong ways with his appeals to reform so invent the excuse that although he is a true prophet, his message does not concern them; he is a prophet to the Ishmaelites only.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Verse 20 says "As for Ishmael, I have heard you..". So God heard and accepted.

    Among the Christian translations, some start the verse 19 with "yes", others dont say neither "yes" nor "no" see there. But all this is besides the point since anyone can lookup this renowned translation of the Hebrew bible from the Jewish orthodox "Judaica press" http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true, it also contains rabbinic comentaries from the famous Rashi saying exactly what i previously said about the terminology of "living before the Lord" as well as God's acceptance of that request from Abraham.

    So now it is Judaism's rejection of prophethood that is the standard for truth? This will put the zealot friend deeper in that muddy pond he cant get himself out of, since Jesus and many other prophets as related both in the OT and NT were rejected, persecuted or killed yet they were true prophets. Many Jews, including the most learned among them, as related in both Quranic and non Quranic sources, accepted the prophethood of Muhammad and those that rejected him didnt do so for racial reasons although the bestowal of prophethood outside of their fold did cause them anger and jealousy, but because essentialy he, like Jesus and countless others as related in both the OT and NT, brought a message that wasnt to their liking. Others could not but admit the prophethood of Muhammad since he fulfills the criteria laid down in the OT itself, but are not ready to compromise their wrong ways with his appeals to reform so invent the excuse that although he is a true prophet, his message does not concern them; he is a prophet to the Ishmaelites only.
    I have a Green back Stone edition of the Hebrew Bible written in Hebrew and Jewish scholars translate it this way as it is read from back to front: After Abraham's request, God said to Abraham: "Nonetheless, Sarah will bear a son and my covenant shall be fulfilled in him as an everlasting covenant..." Now, I looked up the word "nonetheless" and here is the definition: 1.Nonetheless is defined as however. An example of nonetheless is using the word between two phrases to show the contrast of the two thoughts such as, "It was pouring outside; nonetheless, he still went for his evening run" which means that he went for a run even though it was raining. However is the word to focus on. It is like God is saying I know what you want; "however," my promise is with Isaac send Ishmael away, and I will bless and make him strong so don't concern yourself with his well being. Ishmael was rejected; however, he was blessed by God for Abraham's sake. No promise of prophets come out of him. He was sent away from the house of Abraham plain and simple.

    Now it is true it states that God heard him, but you my dear sister, added the words "God accepted" but it doesn't say that in any true translation not even in the Hebrew; so, you are busted again. You try to throw me in the mud, but you find yourself in it instead. I could almost agree with Islam that "the wit of a woman is half that of a man," but I won't go there, because Islam demeans women, IMHO. I believe there is not male or female in Christ Jesus as stated in the Bible.

    What message could Muhammad have brought that the Jews didn't like? His main message was a reaction against Christianity. The Jews couldn't care less about it. He also stated that God is one with no partners. That was nothing new the Christians and the Jews taught Muhammad that truth, and he taught it to the pagan Arabs that worshipped 360 deities. Islam is an Arabic religion only. It is not what God has command Christians to follow. You have your belief, and I have mine. Jesus is the only truth and way and life! now and forever!!!

    Peace be unto you.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 4th February 2014 at 00:26.
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    Nonetheless is not a negation or refusal. It confirms what precedes while adding further qualifications, and that above poster gave an example that inadvertently proves it. God "hearing" Abraham's prayer that his son be dedicated to serve the Lord confirms this. It would be nonsensical to start saying that the request is denied and continue by saying the request was "heard". Further, the expression of "hearing" something is often used to signify acceptance and confirmation. As Rashi says in the comment of what the Judaica press renders as "indeed" in v19:

    http://www.chabad.org/library/bible_...showrashi=true
    אֲבָל is an expression of a confirmation of a statement, and likewise (below 42:21): “Indeed (אֲבָל), we are guilty”; (II Kings 4:14): “Indeed (אֲבָל), she has no son.” - [from Targumim]
    It is also to be noted that the Stone edition of the Hebrew Bible or Artscroll relies heavily on the interpretation of Rashi, whose coment on Gen17:19 was quoted above.

    Again, the "ancient" religion of Judaism which is supposed to set the standard of authenticity agrees with the Quran and leaves the zealot struggling in his muddy pond.
    Last edited by naderM; 4th February 2014 at 00:16.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    The only version I found that says "Yes" is the NIV: Then God said, “Yes, but your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you will call him Isaac. But you need to look at the but. It is like you want something from your authority but they say to you. Yes, but it will be this way. That means yes, but no you cannot have what you what because my promise is with Isaac. Every other version of the Bible states "No" and the Hebrew states "Nonetheless" meaning "however;" therefore, Abraham didn't exactly get what he wanted from the Lord regarding Ishmael, but God gave Ishmael a blessing that turns out to be a curse for every man that isn't an Ishmaelite (Muslim).
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Christian inconsistent translations are irrelevant. "Nonetheless" is not a negation, and every Jewish translation and rabbinic comentary agrees with the fact that God accepted Abraham's request that Ishmael be dedicated to serve the Lord.

    As to that covenant thing the zealot keeps insisting upon without really knowing what its speaking of; God in the Torah is reported to have announced several covenants with Abraham, and none of them is related to prophethood being the sole prerogative of one branch or another. In Gen15:18-21,17:2,8,10 we read about the covenant regarding Abraham's offspring given dominion over the land of Canaan, the covenant that would increase his descendants in numbers, and the covenant of circumcision of his male children including all those living in his household that are not his male offspring. We read in Gen17:17-27 that Ishmael was made fully part of the covenant of circumcision (a practice that remained among some of the pre-islamic Arabs of Mecca) as well as the covenant of blessed and fruitful nation. The only covenant that isnt explicitly mentionned as covering him, as per the Torah's authors, was the one of dominion over the land of Canaan, and this is exactly what was meant when God in Gen17:19 is reported to have accepted and did not deny that Ishmael might "live before the Lord" but added the qualification that "your wife Sarah will bear you a son, and you shall name him Isaac, and I will establish My covenant with him as an everlasting covenant for his seed after him".

    As to the regurgitated nonsense regarding Ishmael's "curse", the zealot might want to go there
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Look, the point is the position Abraham wanted for Ishmael God reserved for Isaac. IOW, Ishmael was not to be the child of promise, but Isaac. Maybe, you might want to address this. The Jewish interpretation of Scripture has problems as well.

    As for the curse, God said that Ishmael would be strong with him against every man and everyman against him. IMO, we can see that to this very day.the whole world is caught up in a family feud between the descendants of Ishmael and Isaac as to who has the child of promise. In short, Jesus is the child of promise and the culmination of Israel even though the Jews don't see it. Jesus is the total spiritual sum of all things concerning the Scriptures even though Muslims don't see it.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Look, the point is the position Abraham wanted for Ishmael God reserved for Isaac. IOW, Ishmael was not to be the child of promise, but Isaac. Maybe, you might want to address this. The Jewish interpretation of Scripture has problems as well.

    As for the curse, God said that Ishmael would be strong with him against every man and everyman against him. IMO, we can see that to this very day.the whole world is caught up in a family feud between the descendants of Ishmael and Isaac as to who has the child of promise. In short, Jesus is the child of promise and the culmination of Israel even though the Jews don't see it. Jesus is the total spiritual sum of all things concerning the Scriptures even though Muslims don't see it.
    There is nothing to "look". Among the covenants God made with Abraham, only the one concerning the land of Canaan did not cover Ishmael. That fact even the Quran does not dispute, but confirms "Enter the holy land which Allah has decreed for you". What the Quran makes clear is that no covenant is unconditionally everlasting. No covenant of prophethood was ever made with Abraham, which is why many Jewish learned men from the past and present do not deny Muhammad's prophethood but claim that it only applies to the Bani Ishmael. And neither Ishmael nor his descendants were under any kind of curse for thousands of years as was shown in the link.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    There is nothing to "look". Among the covenants God made with Abraham, only the one concerning the land of Canaan did not cover Ishmael. That fact even the Quran does not dispute, but confirms "Enter the holy land which Allah has decreed for you". What the Quran makes clear is that no covenant is unconditionally everlasting. No covenant of prophethood was ever made with Abraham, which is why many Jewish learned men from the past and present do not deny Muhammad's prophethood but claim that it only applies to the Bani Ishmael. And neither Ishmael nor his descendants were under any kind of curse for thousands of years as was shown in the link.
    Okay, maybe curse wasn't the right word, but what would you call someone that is against everyone and everyone against him?

    Muhammad being prophet to Bani Ishmael makes more sense than him being the world's universal prophet. For instance, many Muslims follow Muhammad's child bride model and the world frowns on child marriage this makes him not a good role model prophet for the world. Qnly Bani Ishmael might accept it. That is why a said Islam is an Arabic religion. I can prove what I say and have on another thread about Muslims following Muhammad's child bride model.
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