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Thread: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

  1. #31
    Alhamdullilah..
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarians vs non Association Affiliations

    Burninglight,

    To begin with, we don't even agree on our understanding of what an association is or what comprises idolatry. Without providing any evidence you alleged that simply having to mention the prophet's name in the Islamic creed is idolatrous. It's your personal opinion; I understand, but when you're trying to prove something you should at least give some sort of proof. On the other hand, when I said that worshiping a "person born of a virgin" is idolatry you casually denied it, again without any evidence. I don't know what to conclude from this. How can you expect me to faithfully answer your questions when you're not even willing to acknowledge the obvious? In such a case members won't see any benefit in responding to you, other than, of course, a reward from God for their efforts.

    Anyhow, let me put this differently. Christians recite the Apostles' creed or the Nicene creed just like Muslims say the shahadah. Both the creeds in Christianity contain the statement "I believe in the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints". So would it be fair if I tell you that you're associating the church and saints with God in worship or that mentioning them alongside God is idolatry? Using your line of reasoning, I'd say yes.

  2. #32
    Alhamdullilah..
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarians vs non Association Affiliations

    Burninglight,

    To begin with, we don't even agree on our understanding of what an association is or what comprises idolatry. Without providing any evidence you alleged that simply having to mention the prophet's name in the Islamic creed is idolatrous. It's your personal opinion; I understand, but when you're trying to prove something you should at least give some sort of proof. On the other hand, when I said that worshiping a "person born of a virgin" is idolatry you casually denied it, again without any evidence. I don't know what to conclude from this. How can you expect me to faithfully answer your questions when you're not even willing to acknowledge the obvious? In such a case members won't see any benefit in responding to you, other than, of course, a reward from God for their efforts.

    Anyhow, let me put this differently. Christians recite the Apostles' creed or the Nicene creed just like Muslims say the shahadah. Both the creeds in Christianity contain the statement "I believe in the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints". So would it be fair if I tell you that you're associating the church and saints with God in worship or that mentioning them alongside God is idolatry? Using your line of reasoning, I'd say yes.

  3. #33
    Alhamdullilah..
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarians vs non Association Affiliations

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Well now, Joseph Smith's legacy wasn't around for the same amount of time as Muhammad. There was a time when Muhammad was less known than Joseph Smith; so, you have made no point here.

    That is what I would expect you to say without proof.



    It doesn't say he wasn't in sin either; however, it implies he was lost in sin, because if one is on the wrong path and Allah had to set him on the right path, what else can be inferred? IMHO, being on the wrong path is sin, but I wouldn't think you could admit that.



    Lost implies in error, the wrong direction, and error means being on the wrong path, and the wrong path means sin, IMHO.

    Sin is what causes people to wander lost; it makes them ignorant and blind to truth as well. They are then open to be led away by any spirit not of God.

    Like you said, things are not always as they appear; especially, to those who might be lost and wandering ignorantly themselves.


    I know what a declaration of faith is. The shahadah is a declaration of faith you must make to be a Muslim; it involves you having to associate the name of your god's messenger with your god; I know you don't claim divinity for him, but there is an association that if not made, you cannot be Muslim. IMHO, that is a subtle manifestation of idolatry. That is not a flawed description of the term idolatry either!


    When someone has irrefutable evidence, they show it. They don't just say they have it like you are doing.

    I know it wasn't Satan, because Paul was against Christians and his vision of Jesus caused him to shift a 180 degrees. Besides, as Jesus said "A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand..." If Satan stopped Paul from killing the children of God (Christians) and lets him become one; then, his kingdom is divided and cannot stand.
    I notice that you answered my question with a question, and that is no answer at all.

    peace
    To begin with, we don't even agree on our understanding of what an association is or what comprises idolatry. Without providing any evidence you alleged that simply having to mention the prophet's name in the Islamic creed is idolatrous. It's your personal opinion; I understand, but when you're trying to prove something you should at least give some sort of proof. On the other hand, when I said that worshiping a "person born of a virgin" is plain idolatry you casually denied it, again without any evidence. I don't know what to conclude from this. How can you expect me to faithfully answer your questions when you're not even willing to acknowledge the obvious? In such a case members won't see any benefit in responding to you, other than, of course, a reward from God for their efforts.

    Anyhow, let me put this differently. Christians recite the Apostles' creed or the Nicene creed just like Muslims say the shahadah. Both the creeds in Christianity contain the statement "I believe in the holy catholic Church, the communion of saints". So would it be fair if I told you that you're associating the church and saints with God in worship or that mentioning them alongside God is idolatry? Using your line of reasoning, I'd say yes.

  4. #34
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Burninglight,


    When Jesus speaks of the glory he "had" before the foundation of the world in that verse from John, it doesnt say Jesus preexisted with God. The preexistence of Jesus' glory with God is like God's reward to believers preexisting in Col1:5,1Pet1:4,Matt25:34. So Jesus is asking for this preexisting reward to be given now that he reached the end of his mission. Neither the believers, nor Jesus are gods for having their reward and glory preexisting with God. Also in v1-3 Jesus says there is only one true God who He addressed as Father, he is seperating himself from God.
    But the father addresses Jesus as God as well. Read Hebrews 1. Jesus said I and the father are one. That doesn't sound like a separation to me. The glory He had with the father was talking about what He had not anyone or thing else. Sorry, but you are reading totally out of context
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  5. #35
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Burninglight,


    When Jesus speaks of the glory he "had" before the foundation of the world in that verse from John, it doesnt say Jesus preexisted with God. The preexistence of Jesus' glory with God is like God's reward to believers preexisting in Col1:5,1Pet1:4,Matt25:34. So Jesus is asking for this preexisting reward to be given now that he reached the end of his mission. Neither the believers, nor Jesus are gods for having their reward and glory preexisting with God. Also in v1-3 Jesus says there is only one true God who He addressed as Father, he is seperating himself from God.
    But the father addresses Jesus as God as well. Read Hebrews 1. Jesus said I and the father are one. That doesn't sound like a separation to me. The glory He had with the father was talking about what He had not anyone or thing else. Sorry, but you are reading totally out of context
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  6. #36
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    But the father addresses Jesus as God as well. Read Hebrews 1. Jesus said I and the father are one. That doesn't sound like a separation to me. The glory He had with the father was talking about what He had not anyone or thing else. Sorry, but you are reading totally out of context
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  7. #37
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Burninglight,


    When Jesus speaks of the glory he "had" before the foundation of the world in that verse from John, it doesnt say Jesus preexisted with God. The preexistence of Jesus' glory with God is like God's reward to believers preexisting in Col1:5,1Pet1:4,Matt25:34. So Jesus is asking for this preexisting reward to be given now that he reached the end of his mission. Neither the believers, nor Jesus are gods for having their reward and glory preexisting with God. Also in v1-3 Jesus says there is only one true God who He addressed as Father, he is seperating himself from God.
    But the father addresses Jesus as God as well. Read Hebrews 1. Jesus said I and the father are one. That doesn't sound like a separation to me. The golory He had with the father was talking about what He had not anyone or thing else.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  8. #38
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Burninglight,


    When Jesus speaks of the glory he "had" before the foundation of the world in that verse from John, it doesnt say Jesus preexisted with God. The preexistence of Jesus' glory with God is like God's reward to believers preexisting in Col1:5,1Pet1:4,Matt25:34. So Jesus is asking for this preexisting reward to be given now that he reached the end of his mission. Neither the believers, nor Jesus are gods for having their reward and glory preexisting with God. Also in v1-3 Jesus says there is only one true God who He addressed as Father, he is seperating himself from God.
    But the father addresses Jesus as God as well. Read Hebrews 1. Jesus said I and the father are one. That doesn't sound like a separation to me. The golory He had with the father was talking about what He had not anyone or thing else.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  9. #39
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Burninglight,


    When Jesus speaks of the glory he "had" before the foundation of the world in that verse from John, it doesnt say Jesus preexisted with God. The preexistence of Jesus' glory with God is like God's reward to believers preexisting in Col1:5,1Pet1:4,Matt25:34. So Jesus is asking for this preexisting reward to be given now that he reached the end of his mission. Neither the believers, nor Jesus are gods for having their reward and glory preexisting with God. Also in v1-3 Jesus says there is only one true God who He addressed as Father, he is seperating himself from God.
    But the father addresses Jesus as God as well. Read Hebrews 1. Jesus said I and the father are one. That doesn't sound like a separation to me. The golory He had with the father was talking about what He had not anyone or thing else.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  10. #40
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Burninglight,


    When Jesus speaks of the glory he "had" before the foundation of the world in that verse from John, it doesnt say Jesus preexisted with God. The preexistence of Jesus' glory with God is like God's reward to believers preexisting in Col1:5,1Pet1:4,Matt25:34. So Jesus is asking for this preexisting reward to be given now that he reached the end of his mission. Neither the believers, nor Jesus are gods for having their reward and glory preexisting with God. Also in v1-3 Jesus says there is only one true God who He addressed as Father, he is seperating himself from God.
    But the father addresses Jesus as God as well. Read Hebrews 1. Jesus said I and the father are one. That doesn't sound like a separation to me. The glory He had with the father was talking about what He had not anyone or thing else.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  11. #41
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarians vs non Association Affiliations

    But the father addresses Jesus as God as well. Read Hebrews 1. Jesus said I and the father are one. That doesn't sound like a separation to me. The golory He had with the father was talking about what He had not anyone or thing else.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  12. #42
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Burninglight,


    When Jesus speaks of the glory he "had" before the foundation of the world in that verse from John, it doesnt say Jesus preexisted with God. The preexistence of Jesus' glory with God is like God's reward to believers preexisting in Col1:5,1Pet1:4,Matt25:34. So Jesus is asking for this preexisting reward to be given now that he reached the end of his mission. Neither the believers, nor Jesus are gods for having their reward and glory preexisting with God. Also in v1-3 Jesus says there is only one true God who He addressed as Father, he is seperating himself from God.
    But the father addresses Jesus as God as well. Read Hebrews 1. Jesus said I and the father are one. That doesn't sound like a separation to me. The golory He had with the father was talking about what He had not anyone or thing else.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  13. #43
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Burninglight,


    When Jesus speaks of the glory he "had" before the foundation of the world in that verse from John, it doesnt say Jesus preexisted with God. The preexistence of Jesus' glory with God is like God's reward to believers preexisting in Col1:5,1Pet1:4,Matt25:34. So Jesus is asking for this preexisting reward to be given now that he reached the end of his mission. Neither the believers, nor Jesus are gods for having their reward and glory preexisting with God. Also in v1-3 Jesus says there is only one true God who He addressed as Father, he is seperating himself from God.
    But the father addresses Jesus as God as well. Read Hebrews 1. Jesus said I and the father are one. That doesn't sound like a separation to me. The golory He had with the father was talking about what He had not anyone or thing else.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  14. #44
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    But the father addresses Jesus as God as well. Read Hebrews 1. Jesus said I and the father are one. That doesn't sound like a separation to me. The golory He had with the father was talking about what He had not anyone or thing else.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  15. #45
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    But the father addresses Jesus as God as well. Read Hebrews 1. Jesus said I and the father are one. That doesn't sound like a separation to me. The golory He had with the father was talking about what He had not anyone or thing else....
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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