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Thread: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

  1. #16
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Burninglight,
    Doesn't he remember that Jesus said "Father glorify your son with the glory I had with you before the world was?" If he can't remember verses like that how can he memorize the Quran?
    When Jesus speaks of the glory he "had" before the foundation of the world in that verse from John, it doesnt say Jesus preexisted with God. The preexistence of Jesus' glory with God is like God's reward to believers preexisting in Col1:5,1Pet1:4,Matt25:34. So Jesus is asking for this preexisting reward to be given now that he reached the end of his mission. Neither the believers, nor Jesus are gods for having their reward and glory preexisting with God. Also in v1-3 Jesus says there is only one true God who He addressed as Father, he is seperating himself from God.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Muslims don't believe Jesus is the "I am" before Abraham
    And it still doesnt work.

    The parallel Burninglight is trying between the Greek Septuagint in Exod3:14 and Jn8:58, also writtien in Greek is a deceptive attempt in trying to find basis for Jesus' deity. God reportedly tells Moses in Exod3:14"i am/ego eimi the existing one/o on. This is what you are to say to the Israelites: 'I AM/O ON (mistranslated as "I am") has sent me to you". "o on" means "the being or the existing one", it is never used for Jesus. The word used in Jn8:58 for "I am" is "ego eimi", anyone can see the greek transliteration. In Exod3:14 God identifies himself as o on -The Being- not ego eimi like in Jn8:58 brought up by Burninglight. The same ego eimi(i am) is used all over the NT for Jesus and others. Jesus didnt speak Greek anyway and in the Hebrew of Exod3:14, "Ehyeh-Asher-Ehyeh" literaly means "I will be what I will be" OR "I shall be that which I shall be" the phrase is in the future tense, not in the present tense as in Jn8:58 -- meaning He is as He was as He will be, ie unchanging as often repeated throughout the Tanakh Mal3:6. This includes not being a human "He who is the Glory of Israel does not lie or change his mind; for he is not a human being".

    When Jesus answers Jn8:58"before Abraham was born, I am" he is referring to his predestined status of Messiah. Nowhere does it hint to eternity and neither does it indicate how long Jesus supposedly lived before Abraham. 2 verses up it says "Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day" (Jewish tradition actually asserts Abraham saw a vision of the entire history of his descendants). So Just like Jesus preexisted in God's plan prior to Abraham's physical existence and Abraham saw this plan that would later unfold, Heb11:10 describes Abraham seeing a future city that is yet to be built. In 1Pet1:20 Jesus was "chosen before the creation of the world, but was revealed in these last times" so he didnt physically exist before his birth like in Jer1:5 where Jeremiah is sanctified and ordained prophet before being born and Rev13:8 where Jesus is slain before the creation of the world and even in the Jewish apocryphal "Testament of Moses" 1:14 where Moses "was prepared from the beginning of the world to be the mediator of the covenant" and again in the NAS translation of Acts 2:23 where Jesus is a man "delivered up by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God". Jesus saying I AM HE simply means he is the planned prophet to the Jews, before Abraham was born "before Abraham was born, ego eimi". Previously in Jn4:25-26 a woman asked Jesus when is the messiah/annointed one coming he answers literarly ego eimi = I am he, rendered "I who speak to you AM HE".

    The trinitarian bias of bible translators is exposed if one looks at the same Greek "ego eimi" that is rendered "I am he" in Jn8:24 (or the one i claim to be) while in v58 its only "I am". When Paul answered "I am" in Acts 26:29 he wasnt claiming divinity and neither was the blind whom Jesus healed. I AM/EGO EIMI simply draws strong attention to the person in question.
    Last edited by naderM; 22nd January 2014 at 10:45.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Quote Originally Posted by BL
    God doesn't forgive blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. God also doesn't forgive any unrepented sin my friend.
    Calling Holy Spirit God is blasphemy that neither God or Holy Spirit will forgive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    Calling Holy Spirit God is blasphemy that neither God or Holy Spirit will forgive.
    Why? The Scriptures say that God is Spirit. If God is also Holy, what is blasphemy about calling Him the Holy Spirit? You have no logic or rationale to say I am committing an unforgivable sin. You talk with no knowledge of what your saying. IOW, this statement of yours here is the epitome of ignorance.

    It makes more sense to say calling God an angel is blasphemy. For instance, God is not Gabriel. Blasphemy is a sin that one has to realize he is committing. If you didn't know the Holy Spirit is God and you call Him Gabriel, that is forgivable, but now that you know the truth, and persist to call God an angel, He will judge whether that is blasphemy or not. An unforgiveable sin means a godless eternity friend. I wouldn't wish that on Hitler let alone you or any Muslim.

    You just don't know who the Holy Spirit is, and I pray He forgives you now that you do know!
    Last edited by Burninglight; 15th February 2014 at 17:49.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post

    When Jesus answers Jn8:58"before Abraham was born, I am" he is referring to his predestined status of Messiah. .
    No, the Jews understood Him to be claiming quality with God; that is why they wanted to stone Him for saying "Before Abraham was I am" No one could want to stone Him for claiming predestined Messianic status.

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Nowhere does it hint to eternity and neither does it indicate how long Jesus supposedly lived before Abraham. .
    When you look at all the things Jesus said and did, it does. For instance, He forgave sin. Only God can do that. He also claimed to be one with God. He didn't mean only in purpose. The Jews wouldn't want to stone a prophet for saying that. All prophets were supposed to be one in purpose with God. You are just not putting the pieces together. Unfortunately, your Islamic worldview filters what you are able to see and understand.
    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    The trinitarian bias of bible translators is exposed if one looks at the same Greek "ego eimi" that is rendered "I am he" in Jn8:24 (or the one i claim to be) while in v58 its only "I am". When Paul answered "I am" in Acts 26:29 he wasnt claiming divinity and neither was the blind whom Jesus healed. I AM/EGO EIMI simply draws strong attention to the person in question.
    Nothing has been exposed sister naderM. You must stop mine quoting or looking at only snap shots of the Scripture that came before the Quran. Jesus said, "I am the one who was dead and behold I am alive forevermore, and I HAVE THE KEYS TO HELL AND DEATH."

    Only God has the keys to hell and death!
    Last edited by Burninglight; 15th February 2014 at 20:33.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  6. #21
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    Your argument doesn't make sense; firstly because the shahada translates as, "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is a messenger of Allah" - it explicitly denies the existence of any god besides Allah, and secondly the rest of the declaration distinctly affirms that Prophet Muhammad (saws) is a messenger of God. There is obviously no "association" there. The reason behind this part of the declaration is that Prophet Muhammad (saws) was the last prophet; what he preached was entirely based on revelation and not a product of his own personal whims and fancies.

    "He does not speak of himself, [whatever he says] is only revelation revealed [to him]." (The Noble Qur'an 53:3-4)

    "Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah, of all things, Knowing." (The Noble Qur'an 33:40)

    It's simple, really. God sent prophets to mankind since the beginning of time as a test of faith and a means of guidance. Just like all other prophets, Prophet Muhammad (saws) was sent to guide mankind. Believers must mention him in the shahadah because he is the final prophet; no other prophet will come after him. The message he was sent with is the final message to human beings from God and will never change. Obeying his commands is like obeying God because he only preached what was revealed to him. How else do you think human beings can obey God? We need a prophet/messenger; a human being, someone like us to live among us and to convey to us God's message.

    When I think of Islam I see Allah and Muhammad as inextricably linked so that Muslims cannot call out to Allah without mentioning or being conscious of Muhammad.
    Really? You're grossly mistaken then. We cannot direct our prayers to the Prophet (saws); that'd constitute shirk which is the only unforgivable sin in the sight of God. Allah commanded the Prophet in the Qur'an to say to his followers:

    "Say, "I hold not for myself [the power of] benefit or harm, except what Allah has willed. And if I knew the unseen, I could have acquired much wealth, and no harm would have touched me. I am not except a warner and a bringer of good tidings to a people who believe." (The Noble Qur'an 7:188)

    On one occasion, one of the Prophet's companions said, "It is what Allaah wills, and what you will." The Prophet (saws) immediately corrected him, saying, "Are you making me an equal to Allaah? Say: "It is what Allaah alone wills." (hadith from Musnad Ahmad)

    Sorry to burst your bubble but your allegation is clearly baseless.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    Your argument doesn't make sense; firstly because the shahada translates as, "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is a messenger of Allah" - it explicitly denies the existence of any god besides Allah, and secondly the rest of the declaration distinctly affirms that Prophet Muhammad (saws) is a messenger of God. There is obviously no "association" there. The reason behind this part of the declaration is that Prophet Muhammad (saws) was the last prophet; what he preached was entirely based on revelation and not a product of his own personal whims and fancies. .
    The translation is not what I am disputing. The point is you must mention Muhammad with Allah in the shehada. The shehada doesn't translate "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is the last messenger of Allah" If it did, you'd have somewhat of a point, but not completely, because you MUST mention the name of Islam's messenger in the shehada, and without the shehada, you cannot be a Muslim. There are Quranists that follow the Quran but reject those who say the shehada as shirk. If you want to say this doesn't make sense, it is clear to me that you don't want it to make sense.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    "He does not speak of himself, [whatever he says] is only revelation revealed [to him]." (The Noble Qur'an 53:3-4)

    "Muhammad is not the father of [any] one of your men, but [he is] the Messenger of Allah and last of the prophets. And ever is Allah, of all things, Knowing." (The Noble Qur'an 33:40.
    We don't know who the revealer of this revelation is. Muhammad didn't hear from Allah directly but from one claiming to be Gabriel. Abraham, Moses and Jesus heard directly from God, but not Muhammad. Mormons consider Joseph Smith the final prophet who claims to have heard the final revelation. Millions follow him. I cannot see why I should accept Muhammad anymore than Smith.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    It's simple, really. God sent prophets to mankind since the beginning of time as a test of faith and a means of guidance. Just like all other prophets, Prophet Muhammad (saws) was sent to guide mankind. Believers must mention him in the shahadah because he is the final prophet; no other prophet will come after him. The message he was sent with is the final message to human beings from God and will never change. Obeying his commands is like obeying God because he only preached what was revealed to him. How else do you think human beings can obey God? We need a prophet/messenger; a human being, someone like us to live among us and to convey to us God's message..
    What you say here brings to mind Heb. 1: Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

    5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”? 6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.” 7 Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.” 8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

    You see, this means we can hear from God through Christ for ourselves; that means we can receive gifts of prophecy, words of knowledge, discerning of spirits, gifts of healing all from the same Spirit of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    Really? You're grossly mistaken then. We cannot direct our prayers to the Prophet (saws); that'd constitute shirk which is the only unforgivable sin in the sight of God. Allah commanded the Prophet in the Qur'an to say to his followers:

    "Say, "I hold not for myself [the power of] benefit or harm, except what Allah has willed. And if I knew the unseen, I could have acquired much wealth, and no harm would have touched me. I am not except a warner and a bringer of good tidings to a people who believe." (The Noble Qur'an 7:188).
    No, I am not mistaken about the shehada. That is what I am referring to. In the shehada you must mention Islam's messenger. That is why I said, "I see Allah and Muhammad as inextricably linked so that Muslims cannot call out to Allah (In the Shehada) without mentioning or being (totally) conscious of Muhammad" as pertains to your religion and being Muslim. Even though you don't see Muhammad as equal to Allah but his slave, that still constitutes an association, IMHO. I understand you don't want to see this.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    On one occasion, one of the Prophet's companions said, "It is what Allaah wills, and what you will." The Prophet (saws) immediately corrected him, saying, "Are you making me an equal to Allaah? Say: "It is what Allaah alone wills." (hadith from Musnad Ahmad)

    Sorry to burst your bubble but your allegation is clearly baseless.
    No need to worry about bursting bubbles. The point is, I cannot see why Muhammad should be accepted as a universal prophet for the world. For many reasons. For instance, the world frowns on child marriage. He didn't know God's name; he performed no miracles and gave no prophecies; he is a descendant of Ishmael rejected by God and Abraham as the child of promise.

    Islam's messenger was not a prophet IMO. It becomes particularly clear, if we look at the original title for a prophet; a "seer" - one who was able to see the unseen for example 1. Sam. 9/9) "(Formerly in Israel, when a man went to inquire of God, he said, “Come, let us go to the seer,” for today's “prophet” was formerly called a seer.) 10 And Saul said to his servant, “Well said; come, let us go.” So they went to the city where the man of God was." This becomes even more clear, as both Muhammad himself in the Quran (look at 6/50a, 7/188b, 10/20, 11/31a (here it is about Noah, but a parallel to Muhammad), 72/26) and Aishah in the Hadiths clearly state that Muhammad had not the power of seeing the unseen. To be a prophet you must be able to see the unseen things at least once in your life through God's power. I grant you he was a messenger of Islam but not a prophet of my Creator or I would follow Islam.

    Thanks for your reply
    Peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 16th February 2014 at 22:09.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    The translation is not what I am disputing. The point is you must mention Muhammad with Allah in the shehada. The shehada doesn't translate "There is no God but Allah, and Muhammad is the last messenger of Allah" If it did, you'd have somewhat of a point, but not completely, because you MUST mention the name of Islam's messenger in the shehada, and without the shehada, you cannot be a Muslim. There are Quranists that follow the Quran but reject those who say the shehada as shirk. If you want to say this doesn't make sense, it is clear to me that you don't want it to make sense.
    No, your reasoning doesn't work. It's like questioning why the followers of Prophet Moses followed him and not Prophet Abraham. It is obvious that because Prophet Muhammad (saws) was the last prophet sent to guide humankind and no other prophet will succeed him, he is meant for this generation and the generations to come till the last day and so believing and following him and the revelation he was sent with becomes an essential article of faith for the one who believes in God. However believing in the prophets that preceded him since the very beginning is vital to complete one's religion.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    We don't know who the revealer of this revelation is. Muhammad didn't hear from Allah directly but from one claiming to be Gabriel. Abraham, Moses and Jesus heard directly from God, but not Muhammad. Mormons consider Joseph Smith the final prophet who claims to have heard the final revelation. Millions follow him. I cannot see why I should accept Muhammad anymore than Smith.
    In Islam there are primarily two methods of revelation: direct, in the form of true dreams/visions or in the form of direct conversations; and indirect, by way of the angel of revelation, Gabriel. Prophet Muhammad (saws) received revelation by means of both methods. Following is the evidence for each:

    Vision
    "Revelation to the Prophet first began as true visions in his sleep. Whenever he saw a vision, it would occur as surely as the break of the day." (Sahih Bukhari)

    Direct Speech
    Allah communicated with the Prophet directly during his ascension up into the heavens (Al-Mi'raj). Detailed narrations of this phenomenon are recorded in various hadiths.

    Through Gabriel
    This form of revelation reached the Prophet (saws) in two ways: either in the form of the reverberating sound like the gong of a bell, or in the form of the direct speech of the angel.

    "Sometimes it comes to me like the ringing of a bell—this is the most severe form for me—then the ringing ceases and I have understood what (the angel) said." (Sahih al Bukhari)

    "Occasionally the angel appears before me in the form of a man and speaks to me, and I grasp all that he says." (Sahih al Bukhari)

    So, you see, you're wrong. Prophet Muhammad (saws) did hear the direct speech of God. Also, I'd like to point out here that not every prophet in the Bible directly communicated with God. They often received revelation through visions only.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    What you say here brings to mind Heb. 1: Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, 2 but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son, whom he appointed the heir of all things, through whom also he created the world. 3 He is the radiance of the glory of God and the exact imprint of his nature, and he upholds the universe by the word of his power. After making purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, 4 having become as much superior to angels as the name he has inherited is more excellent than theirs.

    5 For to which of the angels did God ever say, “You are my Son, today I have begotten you”? Or again, “I will be to him a father, and he shall be to me a son”? 6 And again, when he brings the firstborn into the world, he says, “Let all God's angels worship him.” 7 Of the angels he says, “He makes his angels winds, and his ministers a flame of fire.” 8 But of the Son he says, “Your throne, O God, is forever and ever, the scepter of uprightness is the scepter of your kingdom.

    You see, this means we can hear from God through Christ for ourselves; that means we can receive gifts of prophecy, words of knowledge, discerning of spirits, gifts of healing all from the same Spirit of God.
    So you don't believe a prophet is superior to a believer? What exactly do you think is a prophet's/messenger's role in a religion? Not that I'm particularly interested in your beliefs or something. But despite being a follower of an Abrahamic faith, if you think you don't need a prophet to guide you then I don't see reason in taking this discussion any further.

    I've often been told by Christians that the "holy spirit" guides people. And don't y'all consider the Holy Spirit to be God? How in the world can a human being be "filled" with God? These questions are meant to be rhetorical so don't bother to answer. It's futile anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    No, I am not mistaken about the shehada. That is what I am referring to. In the shehada you must mention Islam's messenger. That is why I said, "I see Allah and Muhammad as inextricably linked so that Muslims cannot call out to Allah (In the Shehada) without mentioning or being (totally) conscious of Muhammad" as pertains to your religion and being Muslim. Even though you don't see Muhammad as equal to Allah but his slave, that still constitutes an association, IMHO. I understand you don't want to see this.
    Obeying someone that God commanded us to obey is not association in the slightest. As I already said, your allegation is baseless. You do realize you're speaking without any evidence? I understand you don't want to see this or do you?

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    No need to worry about bursting bubbles. The point is, I cannot see why Muhammad should be accepted as a universal prophet for the world. For many reasons. For instance, the world frowns on child marriage. He didn't know God's name; he performed no miracles and gave no prophecies; he is a descendant of Ishmael rejected by God and Abraham as the child of promise.
    I cannot see a single reason why Prophet Muhammad (saws) should not be accepted as a universal prophet. For several reasons like the revelation of the Qur'an, his magnificent character, his unmatched piety, the numerous miracles he performed, the extreme respect he earned from believers and non-believers alike, and the superb example he set for us to follow.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Islam's messenger was not a prophet IMO. It becomes particularly clear, if we look at the original title for a prophet; a "seer" - one who was able to see the unseen for example 1. Sam. 9/9) "(Formerly in Israel, when a man went to inquire of God, he said, “Come, let us go to the seer,” for today's “prophet” was formerly called a seer.) 10 And Saul said to his servant, “Well said; come, let us go.” So they went to the city where the man of God was."
    So did the OT prophets know everything of the unseen? Of course not. They only saw/knew what Allah wished to reveal to them. The same was the case with the Prophet (saws); many matters of the unseen were revealed to him.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    This becomes even more clear, as both Muhammad himself in the Quran (look at 6/50a, 7/188b, 10/20, 11/31a (here it is about Noah, but a parallel to Muhammad), 72/26) and Aishah in the Hadiths clearly state that Muhammad had not the power of seeing the unseen. To be a prophet you must be able to see the unseen things at least once in your life through God's power. I grant you he was a messenger of Islam but not a prophet of my Creator or I would follow Islam.

    Thanks for your reply
    Peace
    Care to explain what those numbers indicate? What are the a's and b's for?

    I'm sure you're here to seek answers for the benefit of your own soul and not for picking fights with others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    No, your reasoning doesn't work. It's like questioning why the followers of Prophet Moses followed him and not Prophet Abraham. It is obvious that because Prophet Muhammad (saws) was the last prophet sent to guide humankind and no other prophet will succeed him, he is meant for this generation and the generations to come till the last day and so believing and following him and the revelation he was sent with becomes an essential article of faith for the one who believes in God. However believing in the prophets that preceded him since the very beginning is vital to complete one's religion..
    You are a sister I take it. Right?

    No, it is not like questioning followers of Moses because Moses never said I am the way, the truth and the life. He never pointed to himself as the resurrection and the life or the I am before Abraham but Jesus did. That is the difference you're not seeing. My position stands. You must associate the name Muhammad with Allah in the shehada Allah and Muhammad is his messenger; it is in the Quran as well S/ 4 These are the limits [set by] Allah , and whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger will be admitted by Him to gardens [in Paradise] under which rivers flow, abiding eternally therein; and that is the great attainment
    And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger and transgresses His limits - He will put him into the Fire to abide eternally therein, and he will have a humiliating punishment. islam states to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah; wow, did you catch that?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post

    In Islam there are primarily two methods of revelation: direct, in the form of true dreams/visions or in the form of direct conversations; and indirect, by way of the angel of revelation, Gabriel. Prophet Muhammad (saws) received revelation by means of both methods. Following is the evidence for each:

    Vision
    "Revelation to the Prophet first began as true visions in his sleep. Whenever he saw a vision, it would occur as surely as the break of the day." (Sahih Bukhari)

    Direct Speech
    Allah communicated with the Prophet directly during his ascension up into the heavens (Al-Mi'raj). Detailed narrations of this phenomenon are recorded in various hadiths.

    Through Gabriel
    This form of revelation reached the Prophet (saws) in two ways: either in the form of the reverberating sound like the gong of a bell, or in the form of the direct speech of the angel.

    "Sometimes it comes to me like the ringing of a bell—this is the most severe form for me—then the ringing ceases and I have understood what (the angel) said." (Sahih al Bukhari)

    "Occasionally the angel appears before me in the form of a man and speaks to me, and I grasp all that he says." (Sahih al Bukhari)

    So, you see, you're wrong. Prophet Muhammad (saws) did hear the direct speech of God. Also, I'd like to point out here that not every prophet in the Bible directly communicated with God. They often received revelation through visions only. .
    Christians believe that God speaks in a small still voice, but the sounds of a bell or the loud reverberating sound of a gong are possibly supernatural manifestation, but it is not from God.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post

    So you don't believe a prophet is superior to a believer? What exactly do you think is a prophet's/messenger's role in a religion? Not that I'm particularly interested in your beliefs or something. But despite being a follower of an Abrahamic faith, if you think you don't need a prophet to guide you then I don't see reason in taking this discussion any further.

    I've often been told by Christians that the "holy spirit" guides people. And don't y'all consider the Holy Spirit to be God? How in the world can a human being be "filled" with God? These questions are meant to be rhetorical so don't bother to answer. It's futile anyway.
    .
    The people of God were to judge the prophet and try him to see if he is really from God. If he was not, he was stoned by the people by God's authority. If he was, his message should be received by the prophet himself and by the people themselves. Those that receive a prophet in the name of a prophet receive a prophet's reward. We were never to make an idol of them or say they were better than any other human being. If you do that, it is a form of idolatry. Do you do that?

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    Obeying someone that God commanded us to obey is not association in the slightest. As I already said, your allegation is baseless. You do realize you're speaking without any evidence? I understand you don't want to see this or do you?.
    I never said that obeying a prophet's message was an association; I said, having to mention his name with God to be a Muslim is.
    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post

    I cannot see a single reason why Prophet Muhammad (saws) should not be accepted as a universal prophet. For several reasons like the revelation of the Qur'an, his magnificent character, his unmatched piety, the numerous miracles he performed, the extreme respect he earned from believers and non-believers alike, and the superb example he set for us to follow..
    That is an opinion that you are entitled to, apparently the Jews and Christians don't agree. I have given you many reasons why not already. Go back and read my posts


    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    So did the OT prophets know everything of the unseen? Of course not. They only saw/knew what Allah wished to reveal to them. The same was the case with the Prophet (saws); many matters of the unseen were revealed to him..
    It is not in the Quran that Allah spoke directly to Muhammad and hadiths cannot be fully trusted. What unseen things were revealed to Muhammad?


    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post

    Care to explain what those numbers indicate? What are the a's and b's for?

    I'm sure you're here to seek answers for the benefit of your own soul and not for picking fights with others.
    The abc's ignore, Of course, I am not here to fight, and I am always concerned about bettering my relationship with God. Part of obeying my God is speaking the truth in love, and not to be concerned what people may think of me for doing that, and to fight the good fight of faith which we all have to do.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 18th February 2014 at 00:39.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  10. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    You are a sister I take it. Right?

    No, it is not like questioning followers of Moses because Moses never said I am the way, the truth and the life. He never pointed to himself as the resurrection and the life or the I am before Abraham but Jesus did. That is the difference you're not seeing. My position stands. You must associate the name Muhammad with Allah in the shehada Allah and Muhammad is his messenger; it is in the Quran as well S/ 4 These are the limits [set by] Allah , and whoever obeys Allah and His Messenger will be admitted by Him to gardens [in Paradise] under which rivers flow, abiding eternally therein; and that is the great attainment
    And whoever disobeys Allah and His Messenger and transgresses His limits - He will put him into the Fire to abide eternally therein, and he will have a humiliating punishment. islam states to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah; wow, did you catch that?
    In order to obey God we have to obey the prophet he sent, period. Our obedience to a prophet doesn't make him divine at all; rather we only do so because God commands us to.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    The people of God were to judge the prophet and try him to see if he is really from God. If he was not, he was stoned by the people by God's authority. If he was, his message should be received by the prophet himself and by the people themselves. Those that receive a prophet in the name of a prophet receive a prophet's reward. We were never to make an idol of them or say they were better than any other human being. If you do that, it is a form of idolatry. Do you do that?
    We consider prophets to be better than us because they've been chosen by God to guide mankind. To be chosen by God is something really huge; not everybody is honored with this responsibility. Giving someone the respect they are worthy of is not idolatry.

    Whenever someone claims prophethood, it's either the most honest person, who is really a prophet, or the most dishonest person, i.e., a false prophet. It's not difficult to discern who is who. An imposter's ignorance, lies, wickedness and servility to Satan is easily understood by those who have the least bit of discernment. His words and actions expose his falsehood in different ways. You're probably not aware that Prophet Muhammad (saws) was the most truthful and trustworthy man known in Arabia even before his prophethood. He never lied or deceived anyone. Every single person testified to his truthfulness. It was only after he received revelation that the people of Quraish, one of the most powerful Arab tribes, and other people denied his message and fought against him because they feared losing the status they held for centuries.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    I never said that obeying a prophet's message was an association; I said, having to mention his name with God to be a Muslim is.
    The term "association" here implies worshiping someone or something alongside God. If you could name one single Muslim who "worships" the prophet?

    What exactly is your confusion? Are you saying that the shahadah is idolatrous? If so, that doesn't make any sense because, pure and simple, it itself states that Muhammad (saws) is the slave and messenger of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    That is an opinion that you are entitled to, apparently the Jews and Christians don't agree. I have given you many reasons why not already. Go back and read my posts
    It is not an opinion, rather the reality.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    It is not in the Quran that Allah spoke directly to Muhammad and hadiths cannot be fully trusted. What unseen things were revealed to Muhammad?
    Wrong. The incident of the Night Journey is clearly mentioned in the Quran when the Prophet (saws) was raised to the heavens and God directly spoke to him. And who said the hadiths cannot be trusted? Don't you know of the Sihah Sittah (The Six most accurate books of hadith)?

    He saw and spoke to angels, witnessed the heaven and hell and above all, God Himself spoke to him. He was also given the knowledge of certain events that were to occur in the future (and they did happen just as he said they would).

  11. #26
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarians vs non Association Affiliations

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    In order to obey God we have to obey the prophet he sent, period. Our obedience to a prophet doesn't make him divine at all; rather we only do so because God commands us to.).
    Even if that prophet is Joseph Smith? Why should I see Muhammad any different? Islam and Mormonism claim a different Jesus than the one the Bible speaks of. Why should I believe one prophet over another?


    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    We consider prophets to be better than us because they've been chosen by God to guide mankind. To be chosen by God is something really huge; not everybody is honored with this responsibility. Giving someone the respect they are worthy of is not idolatry.).
    You do, but I don't. Many are called by God to serve different functions but few are chosen, because few choose to be chosen. What God calls one to do never makes that person better than anyone else. Obedience is what matters to God. A door keeper in the house of God is just as important and loved as one who shows the way like an apostle, a prophet or a teacher. To say a prophet is better than an other human that obeys God is idolatry plain and simple. Now the only time that changes is when you have Jesus who is more than just a prophet. he is the son of God. Jesus is the breath of God; the bread of life; the resurrection and the life; the Judge of the living and the dead; the "I am before Abraham" No other prophet since the beginning could claim such titles as the Lion of the tribe of Judah; the everlasting father and the Prince of Peace!

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    Whenever someone claims prophethood, it's either the most honest person, who is really a prophet, or the most dishonest person, i.e., a false prophet. It's not difficult to discern who is who. An imposter's ignorance, lies, wickedness and servility to Satan is easily understood by those who have the least bit of discernment. His words and actions expose his falsehood in different ways. You're probably not aware that Prophet Muhammad (saws) was the most truthful and trustworthy man known in Arabia even before his prophethood. He never lied or deceived anyone. Every single person testified to his truthfulness. It was only after he received revelation that the people of Quraish, one of the most powerful Arab tribes, and other people denied his message and fought against him because they feared losing the status they held for centuries.
    It is written for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Even the Quran states that Allah found Muhammad wandering. Wandering means lost and in sin and Allah set him on the right path. That means Muhammad was on the wrong path. I am sure you know the verse I speak of if you know the Quran like a Muslim is supposed to know it.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post

    The term "association" here implies worshiping someone or something alongside God. If you could name one single Muslim who "worships" the prophet? ).
    Any time a person exalts another as better than anyone else that obeys God that is idolatry and that is a form of man worship whether one admits it or not, I would rather worship a person born of a virgin than one who is born as everyone else.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    What exactly is your confusion? Are you saying that the shahadah is idolatrous? If so, that doesn't make any sense because, pure and simple, it itself states that Muhammad (saws) is the slave and messenger of God.
    There is no confusion. You have to associate a slave messenger with your god to be Muslim. I am calling the way I see it. Answer me this: Do you have to mention Muhammad in the shahadah? I rest my case. it doesn't matter that you see Muhammad as a perfect slave messenger and true and never told a lie and as better than all humans; the point is you have to mention him with Allah. The irony is the way you see Muhammad would suggest man worship to an objective viewer, but I don't expect you to be able to see that.



    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post

    It is not an opinion, rather the reality).
    Who says?


    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post

    Wrong. The incident of the Night Journey is clearly mentioned in the Quran when the Prophet (saws) was raised to the heavens and God directly spoke to him. And who said the hadiths cannot be trusted? Don't you know of the Sihah Sittah (The Six most accurate books of hadith)?

    He saw and spoke to angels, witnessed the heaven and hell and above all, God Himself spoke to him. He was also given the knowledge of certain events that were to occur in the future (and they did happen just as he said they would).
    How do you know it wasn't Satan and his demons impersonating God and angels. Satan can appear as a angel of light. Even Muhammad thought he was possessed by a demon; his wife assured him to accept it was from God. It sounds like the old classic Adam and Eve story. Eve gave Adam the apple causing him to sin before his God and hers.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarians vs non Association Affiliations

    Besides most of his posts being the repetition of principles and proof texts refuted weeks and months ago by different members, one of this zealot's favorite line is the denigration of Islam by comparing it to Mormonism. Without getting into details of how ridiculous the parallel is, historically, authentically, prophetically, it just is interesting to note that the Mormon story has more grounds to stand on from the point of view of authenticity, than the NT story, in that there are actually known then-living individuals who executed an affidavit saying that they had, themselves, seen something of the Mormon story whereas the NT is written by anonymous people with no first hand information decades after the alleged, unsubstantiated life of the NT Jesus.
    41:53 We will soon show them Our signs in the Universe and in their own souls, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth.

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarians vs non Association Affiliations

    Quote Originally Posted by naderM View Post
    Besides most of his posts being the repetition of principles and proof texts refuted weeks and months ago by different members, one of this zealot's favorite line is the denigration of Islam by comparing it to Mormonism. Without getting into details of how ridiculous the parallel is, historically, authentically, prophetically, it just is interesting to note that the Mormon story has more grounds to stand on from the point of view of authenticity, than the NT story, in that there are actually known then-living individuals who executed an affidavit saying that they had, themselves, seen something of the Mormon story whereas the NT is written by anonymous people with no first hand information decades after the alleged, unsubstantiated life of the NT Jesus.
    Ridiculous parallel? How so, especially if you consider Mormonism more feasible than the NT biblical Christianity? How can you say such a thing and be taken seriously when the bulk of Islam's religion is all a reaction to NT Christianity per se? And the irony is Islam has imperfectly borrowed from the NT Bible in regards to Jesus being born of a virgin among other things.

    Mormonism is a distortion of the NT Bible and so is Islam, and that is in the way I compare them; in fact, the fact that you state that Mormonism is more believable in the way of authenticity, I find it strange (Double standard) that you see me comparing Islam to Mormonism as denigration of your religion, but you wouldn't if I compare it to the Bible. After all, there are many very intelligent Mormons that could interpret you to be denigrating their religion or me for comparing it to Islam, but they wouldn't if I compared it to NT Christianity.

    As far as repetition; it is a part of life. Repetition is the mother of retention. Don't you say repetitious recitations? Instead of complaining, repeat what the answer or refutation was or is, if you can. It seems you are just trying to take the easy way out by saying it has been dealt with when you don't say how! Finally, not knowing the authors means nothing when God is involved. Abraham tithed to Melchizedek who had no ancestral line (The king of Salem); IOW, he didn't know his back ground, but he had everything to do with God as a priest forever like Jesus

    Peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 4th March 2014 at 23:50.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

  14. #29
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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarians vs non Association Affiliations

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Even if that prophet is Joseph Smith? Why should I see Muhammad any different? Islam and Mormonism claim a different Jesus than the one the Bible speaks of. Why should I believe one prophet over another?
    I might know who Joseph Smith was but if you ask the same question to someone living in the middle of nowhere, they'd be like "Joseph Smith? Who is he?" On the other hand they would certainly know Prophet Muhammad (saws). See that's the difference. A true prophet is well-known and recognized by people. God makes him known to the world through his good deeds and noble character, the revelation sent down to him and by various other means. If you were to look up evidence to believe in Prophet Muhammad (saws) you'll lose count of the rationales you'll find.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    You do, but I don't. Many are called by God to serve different functions but few are chosen, because few choose to be chosen. What God calls one to do never makes that person better than anyone else. Obedience is what matters to God. A door keeper in the house of God is just as important and loved as one who shows the way like an apostle, a prophet or a teacher. To say a prophet is better than an other human that obeys God is idolatry plain and simple. Now the only time that changes is when you have Jesus who is more than just a prophet. he is the son of God. Jesus is the breath of God; the bread of life; the resurrection and the life; the Judge of the living and the dead; the "I am before Abraham" No other prophet since the beginning could claim such titles as the Lion of the tribe of Judah; the everlasting father and the Prince of Peace!
    Your understanding of the term idolatry is seriously flawed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    It is written for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. The wages of sin is death but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Even the Quran states that Allah found Muhammad wandering. Wandering means lost and in sin and Allah set him on the right path. That means Muhammad was on the wrong path. I am sure you know the verse I speak of if you know the Quran like a Muslim is supposed to know it.
    The verse you're speaking of doesn't say that the Prophet (saws) was in error or sinned. When read in its proper context it refers to the time before his prophethood.

    Your Lord has not taken leave of you, [O Muhammad], nor has He detested [you].
    And the Hereafter is better for you than the first [life].
    And your Lord is going to give you, and you will be satisfied.
    Did He not find you an orphan and give [you] refuge?
    And He found you lost and guided [you],
    And He found you poor and made [you] self-sufficient.
    (Surah Ad-Duha 3-8)

    Isn't a person considered to be wandering, ignorant, lost or unaware of something he has no idea of? That doesn't mean he is in sin or error.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Any time a person exalts another as better than anyone else that obeys God that is idolatry and that is a form of man worship whether one admits it or not, I would rather worship a person born of a virgin than one who is born as everyone else.
    You seem to be interested in worshiping a human being more than anyone else on this site. Looks like idolatry to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    There is no confusion. You have to associate a slave messenger with your god to be Muslim. I am calling the way I see it. Answer me this: Do you have to mention Muhammad in the shahadah? I rest my case. it doesn't matter that you see Muhammad as a perfect slave messenger and true and never told a lie and as better than all humans; the point is you have to mention him with Allah. The irony is the way you see Muhammad would suggest man worship to an objective viewer, but I don't expect you to be able to see that.
    Do you know what a "declaration of faith" is? To state your beliefs. The shahadah is simply that. We believe that there is no God but Allah and Prophet Muhammad (saws) is His messenger. While declaring our faith as Muslims we need to mention our belief in the last prophet because our faith is entirely based on the revelation sent to him, and not as an association in divinity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    Who says?
    Irrefutable evidence.

    Quote Originally Posted by Burninglight View Post
    How do you know it wasn't Satan and his demons impersonating God and angels. Satan can appear as a angel of light. Even Muhammad thought he was possessed by a demon; his wife assured him to accept it was from God. It sounds like the old classic Adam and Eve story. Eve gave Adam the apple causing him to sin before his God and hers.
    How do you know it wasn't Satan and his demons that inspired Paul?

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    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    I might know who Joseph Smith was but if you ask the same question to someone living in the middle of nowhere, they'd be like "Joseph Smith? Who is he?" On the other hand they would certainly know Prophet Muhammad (saws). See that's the difference. A true prophet is well-known and recognized by people. God makes him known to the world through his good deeds and noble character, the revelation sent down to him and by various other means. If you were to look up evidence to believe in Prophet Muhammad (saws) you'll lose count of the rationales you'll find.
    Well now, Joseph Smith's legacy wasn't around for the same amount of time as Muhammad. There was a time when Muhammad was less known than Joseph Smith; so, you have made no point here.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post


    Your understanding of the term idolatry is seriously flawed.
    That is what I would expect you to say without proof.



    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post

    The verse you're speaking of doesn't say that the Prophet (saws) was in error or sinned. When read in its proper context it refers to the time before his prophethood.
    It doesn't say he wasn't in sin either; however, it implies he was lost in sin, because if one is on the wrong path and Allah had to set him on the right path, what else can be inferred? IMHO, being on the wrong path is sin, but I wouldn't think you could admit that.



    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    Your Lord has not taken leave of you, [O Muhammad], nor has He detested [you].
    And the Hereafter is better for you than the first [life].
    And your Lord is going to give you, and you will be satisfied.
    Did He not find you an orphan and give [you] refuge?
    And He found you lost and guided [you],
    And He found you poor and made [you] self-sufficient.
    (Surah Ad-Duha 3-8)
    Lost implies in error, the wrong direction, and error means being on the wrong path, and the wrong path means sin, IMHO.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    Isn't a person considered to be wandering, ignorant, lost or unaware of something he has no idea of? That doesn't mean he is in sin or error.
    Sin is what causes people to wander lost; it makes them ignorant and blind to truth as well. They are then open to be led away by any spirit not of God.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    You seem to be interested in worshiping a human being more than anyone else on this site. Looks like idolatry to me.
    Like you said, things are not always as they appear; especially, to those who might be lost and wandering ignorantly themselves.


    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    Do you know what a "declaration of faith" is? To state your beliefs. The shahadah is simply that. We believe that there is no God but Allah and Prophet Muhammad (saws) is His messenger. While declaring our faith as Muslims we need to mention our belief in the last prophet because our faith is entirely based on the revelation sent to him, and not as an association in divinity.
    I know what a declaration of faith is. The shahadah is a declaration of faith you must make to be a Muslim; it involves you having to associate the name of your god's messenger with your god; I know you don't claim divinity for him, but there is an association that if not made, you cannot be Muslim. IMHO, that is a subtle manifestation of idolatry. That is not a flawed description of the term idolatry either!

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post
    Irrefutable evidence.
    When someone has irrefutable evidence, they show it. They don't just say they have it like you are doing.

    Quote Originally Posted by ChicStar View Post

    How do you know it wasn't Satan and his demons that inspired Paul?
    I know it wasn't Satan, because Paul was against Christians and his vision of Jesus caused him to shift a 180 degrees. Besides, as Jesus said "A kingdom divided against itself cannot stand..." If Satan stopped Paul from killing the children of God (Christians) and lets him become one; then, his kingdom is divided and cannot stand.
    I notice that you answered my question with a question, and that is no answer at all.

    peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 4th March 2014 at 23:14.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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