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Thread: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

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    Default Non Trinity Trinitarians vs non Association Affiliations

    I was looking at this Islamic verse and wondering why Muslims say Christians associate partners with our God when they appear to be doing with their god what we deny doing with ours. I notice it reading this verse from the Quran. Say: If your father or your sons or your brethren or your wives or your kinsfolk or the property you have acquired or the commerce you fear may slacken or the dwellings which you love¬ if these are dearer to you than God and His Apostle and striving in His way, then wait till God brings about His command; God does not guide the transgressing people. (9:24)

    When I couple this verse from the Quran with or when I think of the words in the second part of the shehada, I cannot help but notice an association. Shouldn't Muslims at least think twice before accusing Christians of what they do? It seems like they're hypocritically throwing rocks at Christians when they live in a glass house.

    I mean I know they don't see Muhammad as God, but they do have to mention him with Allah to be a Muslim and they do say to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah. They obviously exalt Muhammad above all other prophets since they only mention him in the shehada. When I think of Islam I see Allah and Muhammad as inextricably linked so that Muslims cannot call out to Allah without mentioning or being conscious of Muhammad. That is what I would call an association hands down. Christians like me are being accused of being non trinity trinitarians, but maybe Muslims can explain no association affiliations!
    Last edited by Burninglight; 19th January 2014 at 21:49.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarians vs non Association Filiations!

    It appears you don't understand what we mean by "associating partners with god".

    Because you guys believe Jesus is god and Holy Spirit god, simple as that.

    Following prophets, no issues. Prophets are supposed to be followed.
    Taking name of the prophets in the oath with God, no issues. Taking a name together of angel or a prophet in a statement doesn't make them God.

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarians vs non Association Filiations!

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    It appears you don't understand what we mean by "associating partners with god".

    Because you guys believe Jesus is god and Holy Spirit god, simple as that.

    Following prophets, no issues. Prophets are supposed to be followed.
    Taking name of the prophets in the oath with God, no issues. Taking a name together of angel or a prophet in a statement doesn't make them God.
    I don't know what you mean by association? Perhaps you are using the wrong word or you don't know what association means. When you MUST mention a prophet especially that you single out of all the prophets with Allah or God, that is an association. Period!!!!

    Apparently Muslims don't understand the trinity concept and our relationship with God through Christ, and I can understand this, because not even Allah and his apostle knew what that was as I have demonstrated on other threads.

    Our job is to try prophets to see if they be from God. Only a prophet that is obeying God should be followed, but they shouldn't be looked at as anyone more special to God then those who follow their message; otherwise, that is idolatry plain and simple. We can only look at the word of God as good and special above all less but not above anyone else.

    Finally, people born of a mother and father are just people and each person in life has a different calling and ministry, but when you exalt a person sired by another person above another person, you are an idolater.

    This post should be carefully deliberated on.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 18th January 2014 at 16:25.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarians vs non Association Filiations!

    Wrong word or right word I explained what it means. If you consider Jesus as god then that is enough.

    Not sure what u mean by point out people born out of mother and father, Adam was born without mother and father.

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarians vs non Association Filiations!

    I never said that Jesus is God the father; He is the son of God; the word of God He is the express image and glory of God. The Bible doesn't say Jesus is God the father either.
    I said nothing about Adam. Why are you bringing him up? Adam was created without parents to start creation and not for any other reason. When someone is born without parents we need to know why. Adam is special above all people in the sense that he is the father of the human race. Jesus is the last Adam and He is special above all people and prophets because He is the word of God made flesh. It is God that exalts His word above all His name. So don't take up the problem you about with us; your complained is with your Creator. We accept what God's says

    I was speaking of people born of parents (father and mother) I repeat, people born of a mother and father are just people, and each person in life has a different calling and ministry, but when you exalt a person sired by another person above another person, you are an idolater. This is simple to understand, but it is important that you understand this. Read it again until you do.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 18th January 2014 at 17:22.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Maybe you can understand it this way. People born of a mother and father are just people like you and me, and each person in life has a different calling and ministry from God if they should choose to accept it, but when you exalt a person sired by another person above any other person, you are an idolater. For instance, Mormons that say Joseph Smith is the seal of the prophets and above all people because of his closeness to God, that is idolatry the same goes for those who esteem Muhammad above other people because he too was born of a mother and father and just as human as we are! To think more of him such as him not being prone to make mistakes such as all humans is making a idol out of a person and being a respecter of persons. Only one person was without sin and that was and is the word of God. From where I stand Mormons are idolizing Joe Smith and Muslims are idolizing Muhammad and they associate them with their God as extra special. That is a form of man worship whether you can admit it or not.
    Last edited by Burninglight; 18th January 2014 at 17:37.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    You said he is god. If you believe Jesus is god then that is enough.

    I was speaking of people born of parents (father and mother) I repeat, people born of a mother and father are just people, and each person in life has a different calling and ministry, but when you exalt a person sired by another person above another person, you are an idolater.
    I don't understand why you are bring people born of mother and father here, as if somebody born without a father or mother would be greater.

    Mormons that say Joseph Smith is the seal of the prophets and above all people because of his closeness to God, that is idolatry
    That doesn't make it shirk from our perspective, although I don't believe he was a prophet.

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    You said he is god. If you believe Jesus is god then that is enough..
    Where did I say that?


    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    I don't understand why you are bring people born of mother and father here, as if somebody born without a father or mother would be greater..
    I am saying Adam is special, because he is the father of the human race. I am saying Jesus is the last Adam who is special because He is the word of God come in the flesh. That makes him the true seal of all prophets. To exalt someone above this is idolatry.


    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    That doesn't make it shirk from our perspective, although I don't believe he was a prophet.
    I said nothing about shirk. I said it is idolatry and a form of man worship. Besides, the way Mormons speak of Joe Smith I can tell it is man worship although they'll never admit it. The fact that you have to mention Muhammad with Allah fulfills the true definition of an association whether you understand that term to mean something else or not, but you cannot call a spade a spade, but I can and do!

    peace
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Quote Originally Posted by BL
    Where did I say that?
    The main issue here is believing Jesus as God.

    Quote Originally Posted by BL
    I am saying Adam is special, because he is the father of the human race. I am saying Jesus is the last Adam who is special because He is the word of God come in the flesh. That makes him the true seal of all prophets. To exalt someone above this is idolatry.
    I don't really follow your logic there. What that has to do with shirk.

    Quote Originally Posted by BL
    I said nothing about shirk. I said it is idolatry and a form of man worship.
    Can't get into anyones version of idolatry or how they believe. But if you are talking about Islamic perspective against Trinity then it is shirk. Shirk is idolatry but that will make the discussion more complicated -- i don't have time for chit chat.

    As for Josph smith if he said that doesn't make his followers idolaters from our perspective. Whether he spoke the truth or not that is entirely separate issue. As I said i don't believe he was prophet so i don't believe what he said, but I don't consider Mormons idolaters (on shirk to be precise) on that basis.

    Belief of trinity is a form of shirk. I hope that make issue clearer for you.

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    The main issue here is believing Jesus as God..
    Do you believe Muhammad as Allah? Isn't it documented in Islam to obey Muhammad is to obey Allah?
    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    I don't really follow your logic there. What that has to do with shirk..
    That is just it, it has nothing to do with idolatry or shirk, because Jesus is the word of God incarnate.
    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    Can't get into anyones version of idolatry or how they believe. But if you are talking about Islamic perspective against Trinity then it is shirk. Shirk is idolatry but that will make the discussion more complicated -- i don't have time for chit chat..
    I am not chit chatting with you!
    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    As for Josph smith if he said that doesn't make his followers idolaters from our perspective. Whether he spoke the truth or not that is entirely separate issue. As I said i don't believe he was prophet so i don't believe what he said, but I don't consider Mormons idolaters (on shirk to be precise) on that basis..
    Any person you follow that doesn't follow God is idolatry. Since you cannot see how the Mormons are committing idolatry how could you even begin to hope to know you're not doing it as well?
    What you think is chit chat is a matter of your spiritual life and death. You are mixed up, lost and cannot recognize a benevolent spirit.
    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    Belief of trinity is a form of shirk. I hope that make issue clearer for you.
    There is no such thing as the trinity described or implied by Allah or Muhammad. We are against that trinity more than Muslims are.

    May your eyes be opened in Jesus name
    Last edited by Burninglight; 19th January 2014 at 13:46.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Acts 13: 33 this he has fulfilled to us their children by raising Jesus, as also it is written in the second Psalm,


    “‘You are my Son,
    today I have begotten you.’

    34 And as for the fact that he raised him from the dead, no more to return to corruption, he has spoken in this way,


    “‘I will give you the holy and sure blessings of David.’

    35 Therefore he says also in another psalm,


    “‘You will not let your Holy One see corruption.’

    36 For David, after he had served the purpose of God in his own generation, fell asleep and was laid with his fathers and saw corruption, 37 but he whom God raised up did not see corruption. 38 Let it be known to you therefore, brothers, that through this man forgiveness of sins is proclaimed to you, 39 and by him everyone who believes is freed from everything from which you could not be freed by the law of Moses. 40 Beware, therefore, lest what is said in the Prophets should come about:

    41 “‘Look, you scoffers,
    be astounded and perish;
    for I am doing a work in your days,
    a work that you will not believe, even if one tells it to you.’”

    42 As they went out, the people begged that these things might be told them the next Sabbath. 43 And after the meeting of the synagogue broke up, many Jews and devout converts to Judaism followed Paul and Barnabas, who, as they spoke with them, urged them to continue in the grace of God.

    44 The next Sabbath almost the whole city gathered to hear the word of the Lord. 45 But when the Jews saw the crowds, they were filled with jealousy and began to contradict what was spoken by Paul, reviling him. 46 And Paul and Barnabas spoke out boldly, saying, “It was necessary that the word of God be spoken first to you. Since you thrust it aside and judge yourselves unworthy of eternal life, behold, we are turning to the Gentiles. 47 For so the Lord has commanded us, saying,


    “‘I have made you a light for the Gentiles,
    that you may bring salvation to the ends of the earth.’”

    48 And when the Gentiles heard this, they began rejoicing and glorifying the word of the Lord, and as many as were appointed to eternal life believed. 49 And the word of the Lord was spreading throughout the whole region. 50 But the Jews incited the devout women of high standing and the leading men of the city, stirred up persecution against Paul and Barnabas, and drove them out of their district. 51 But they shook off the dust from their feet against them and went to Iconium. 52 And the disciples were filled with joy and with the Holy Spirit.

    I say thank God for Jesus. Without Him it is no longer possible to get right with God. Satan doesn't want us to believe Jesus is the son of God. He comes to steal, kill and destroy. He works by using false prophets who seem to be righteous, but inwardly they are ravenous wolves. Satan goes about as a roaring lion seeking whom he might devour. He is the father of all lies and the author of confusion. He knows there is no other name given under the sun whereby we might be saved but the name of Jesus Christ. Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He." Muslims don't believe Jesus is the "I am" before Abraham; therefore, they cannot be submitting to God as they say. I don't recommend being a Muslim. I don't see how they are submitting to God at all. No one has been able to gainsay me on this forum; therefore, they cease to respond.
    Good bye until I hear from you!

    Peace
    Last edited by Burninglight; 19th January 2014 at 05:34.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Or satan wants to believe Jesus as God/son of God since that violates the first commandment and it will take all those into hell with him.

    Quran's statement:
    1) God is One, and not like how some have started to believe in God as multiple persons. (Don't starts semantics argument here you know what I mean).
    2) Jesus on the day of judgement will come out and testify against people who have made him god in any form.

    We'll know on the day of judgement, unless God shows and makes clear in this world in our lifetime. God may forgive anything except shirk.

    Another thing, in Hebrew literature son of God means somebody very close to God and lot of other people have been called son of God but Jesus himself never said he is son of God or God, and you can see his attitude toward this. And for this reason Christdom had movements of Unitarianism from Bible itself, in anycase, it is not a clear argument from Bible itself. Jesus addressed to himself as son of man.

    People stop responding to you because they are mature and don't go into unnecessary arguments, we have life, family, and job; we are not here for unnecessary arguments.

    "If you work righteousness, you work righteousness for your own good, but if you commit evil you do so to your own detriment." [Quran 17:7]

    Are they waiting to see if the angels come to them, or thy Lord (Himself), or certain of the signs of thy Lord! the day that certain of the signs of thy Lord do come, no good will it do to a soul to believe in them then if it believed not before nor earned righteousness through its faith. Say: "Wait ye: we too are waiting."[Quran 006:158]

    Last edited by hyd; 21st January 2014 at 20:25.

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!


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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    Or satan wants to believe Jesus as God/son of God since that violates the first commandment and it will take all those into hell with him.
    Believing Jesus is the word of God incarnate doesn't violate the 1st commandment at all. In fact, Muslims believe it too. No Christian is a Christian unless he believes God is one with no partners. As I mentioned, Christians are against the trinity implied by Allah as much as Muslims are. If you cannot believe that Jesus is the son of God as God stated at least believe in His work on the cross for your sin. Why will you die in your sin? Jesus said, "You will die in your sin unless you believe I am He" I wonder if you know Him???

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    Quran's statement:
    1) God is One, and not like how some have started to believe in God as multiple persons. (Don't starts semantics argument here you know what I mean).]
    As I mentioned, No Christian is a Christian unless he believes God is one with no partners. Christians are against the trinity implied by Allah as much as Muslims are. This is not and I repeat NOT a semantic response. You know exactly what I mean!!!
    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    Jesus on the day of judgement will come out and testify against people who have made him god in any form.]
    Jesus will judge those would not have Him rule over them and those who profess He is not the son of God as their way of life. Unless you repent, Jesus will say, "Didn't Burninglight tell you the truth about me? Why didn't you receive it? I directed him to speak to you. You haven't rejected him, you have rejected me and my father. Depart from me; I never knew you!"
    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    We'll know on the day of judgement, unless God shows and makes clear in this world in our lifetime. God may forgive anything except shirk.).]
    God doesn't forgive blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. God also doesn't forgive any unrepented sin my friend.
    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    Another thing, in Hebrew literature son of God means somebody very close to God and lot of other people have been called son of God but Jesus himself never said he is son of God or God, and you can see his attitude toward this. And for this reason Christdom had movements of Unitarianism from Bible itself, in anycase, it is not a clear argument from Bible itself. Jesus addressed to himself as son of man.).]
    So why do you have such a hard time accepting Jesus as the son of God AND THE SON OF MAN?

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post
    People stop responding to you because they are mature and don't go into unnecessary arguments, we have life, family, and job; we are not here for unnecessary arguments.).]
    I have a job and family too. It is with great sacrifice I respond to these post. As I mentioned, if you stop responding to me, I'll eventually stop responding to you.

    It is sad how there is a conspired gossip session going on here about agreeing not to respond to my post, but I'm okay with that. I know you know my posts make sense. The truth is disturbing to most if not all that reject the good news message I bring. Maybe people don't respond because they cannot gainsay truth. Did you ever think of that?

    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post

    "If you work righteousness, you work righteousness for your own good, but if you commit evil you do so to your own detriment." [Quran 17:7]).]
    I do not disagree with this. What is your point? Righteous works can only be performed with God working in and through you. That is only possible with a person you is born anew filled with the Holy Spirit in Christ.
    Quote Originally Posted by hyd View Post

    [/video]
    This video of Deedat I have seen several times. Deedat spent his whole life debating Christians. He did what you are saying Mulsims on this forum think is a waste of time. Maybe they are right. At least I can see evidence that it appeared to be the case for Deedat. For instance, he used to quote in Arabic that "truth smashes the brains of liars or falsehood." Deedat appears to have had His brain attacked for 9 years before he died in some kind of torment and fear.

    The other video you shared I had listened to on the Deen Show, he said Jesus couldn't be God because He had a beginning. How does He know Jesus had a beginning? He said because we know Jesus was born of a virgin at a certain time. His was an ignorant statement. He used to be Christian and doesn't remember that Jesus said "before Abraham was I am? Doesn't he remember that Jesus said "Father glorify your son with the glory I had with you before the world was?" If he can't remember verses like that how can he memorize the Quran?

    Look let me make this simple Matthew 28 states 16 Now the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain to which Jesus had directed them. 17 And when they saw him they worshiped him, but some doubted. 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. 19 Go therefore and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in[b] the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, to the end of the age.”

    Jesus said it; I believe it and that settles it for me. If a prophet comes along later like Muhammad or Joseph Smith preaching a message that is contrary to Jesus, I am not hearing it, but you'll hear it, and you dance to the beat of a different drummer than I and the apostles of Jesus!
    Last edited by Burninglight; 22nd January 2014 at 04:25.
    Jesus is not valued (at all) unless he is valued above all. Augustine

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    Default Re: Non Trinity Trinitarism vs non Association Filiation!

    So why do you have such a hard time accepting Jesus as the son of God AND THE SON OF MAN?
    You mean the traditional Hebrew meaning? I don't have problem with that meaning but that is not current Christian meaning and it can create confusion as it did with Christians.

    Jesus said it; I believe it and that settles it for me. If a prophet comes along later like Muhammad or Joseph Smith preaching a message that is contrary to Jesus, I am not hearing it, but you'll hear it, and you dance to the beat of a different drummer than I and the apostles of Jesus!
    I don't have a problem with it but what I see is you guys go contrary to the practice of Jesus. You guys have explanation that after Jesus's crucifixion it is a different world, but that is kind of loopy argument.

    The other video you shared I had listened to on the Deen Show, he said Jesus couldn't be God because He had a beginning. How does He know Jesus had a beginning? He said because we know Jesus was born of a virgin at a certain time. His was an ignorant statement. He used to be Christian and doesn't remember that Jesus said "before Abraham was I am? Doesn't he remember that Jesus said "Father glorify your son with the glory I had with you before the world was?" If he can't remember verses like that how can he memorize the Quran?
    That is not clear, but rather very cryptic if even taken as valid argument. As deen show points out God has been very clear with his nature, and this is not the case with trinity. Jesus didn't come out and say he is god, worship him as god, pray to him as god, or and he will is about to die for your sins and all your sins will be forgiven.

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